Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? This is Dr. Chad Woolner, and you’re tuned into today’s episode of The Laser Light Show. Joining us is a very special guest and a great friend of mine, Dr. Josh Wagner. I’m particularly excited about our discussion today because we’re taking a slight detour from our usual deep dive into the science of lasers. Instead, we’re exploring the realm of social science, focusing on communication strategies that will aid practitioners in enhancing their interactions with patients. And for our listeners who are patients, there’s plenty for you too—insights into how these strategies can improve your experiences. So, without further ado, let’s dive in. Welcome to the show, Dr. Josh Wagner. How are you doing, my friend?
Transcript
Speakers:
Dr. Chad Woolner
Dr. Josh Wagner
Dr. Josh Wagner: Hey, I’m doing great. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, so this is going to be a bit of a departure, as I kind of alluded to in the intro, in that Dr. Josh Wagner is not a low-level laser therapy guru. Dr. Josh Wagner is probably best known in our profession for helping practitioners effectively communicate with patients, and helping practitioners develop what we would call, you know, proper headspace strategies. These strategies help them to better prepare for consultations with patients. Is that a fair way of articulating it?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Yeah, let’s just cut to the chase. I help chiropractors become the go-to provider in their area and get paid well. But I know there’s a mix of practitioners and non-practitioners listening to this. So, when I say ‘get paid well,’ it doesn’t come from a place of trying to extract more money from the public or anything unethical. Instead, it’s about shifting from a transactional conversation or relationship to a transformational relationship. Essentially, a layperson, or rather a patient, instead of feeling, ‘Oh, I have to pay this amount, and I could have spent that money on a vacation, savings, or groceries,’ actually feels inspired and happy to invest in getting their life back. And as practitioners, if you start shifting your mindset— and we’re going to dive into this in our conversation— from transactional to transformational relationships, jot that down. It makes it much easier for patients to happily and enthusiastically pay you, even with, and especially if, they hoped or thought insurance would cover your care. So, we’re going to dive into why that hasn’t been the route for many practitioners and steps you can start taking to change it, but it all starts with your mindset. I love helping good providers grow their practice, doing good work, and helping more patients get well, feel well, and return to their lives.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I would say that’s a great jumping-off point when we talk about ‘headspace’ because I think, regardless of the type of practice—whether the practitioners we’re speaking to here are chiropractors, medical doctors, osteopaths, acupuncturists, naturopaths, you name it—there’s a bit of a challenging balancing act. We can call it that. It arises because, I believe, a significant percentage, if not the majority, enter these professions out of a sincere desire to help and serve people. And sometimes, speaking for myself, I’ve encountered situations where it can be somewhat challenging to reconcile serving people and then, obviously, getting paid for that service. And of course, the necessity of needing to get paid for the services rendered. Because, if that transaction doesn’t happen, you don’t have a job; you can’t continue to serve people. So, maybe you could speak to that balancing act from your perspective. Why do a lot of practitioners, regardless of their profession, sometimes struggle with this and maybe find it difficult to strike the right balance?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Yeah, absolutely, Chad. And when I teach doctors, I call it turning what’s traditionally seen as your biggest weakness into a strength. Most healthcare providers, especially those outside of conventional medicine but even those within it, have a deep commitment to bringing the best modalities to their patients to help them recover from their conditions. This dedication isn’t just about the money. Let’s be clear about that: everyone listening to this is here to learn something and grow. I know you’re coming from a place of ethical and humanistic values, wanting to help more people get well and to be a pillar in your community.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And I’m just going to interrupt for a quick second. This is something we’ve hit on several times on this podcast, and it’s important to highlight again. For those in the field who might gravitate towards an erroneous perspective, there’s a significant consensus we’ve acknowledged: our focus is on the mission of helping as many people as possible. This is evident in how some choose to invest heavily—something we’ve discussed in previous episodes. They could easily cut more corners, save more money, or increase their profits by not investing as much of their time, money, and resources into research. Yet, it’s very clear that for them, like Erchonia, the priority could financially be to focus on being ‘bigger’ or ‘better’ in that sense. But the genuine focus on research, because they understand its importance to the patient, makes it evident where their priorities lie. You’re in the right place, and what you’re saying resonates here—you’re preaching to the choir, so to speak. I just wanted to highlight that because it’s significant.
Dr. Josh Wagner: That’s beautiful, and I wasn’t even specifically aware of that about Erchonia. So, that excites me even more about using their brand, and it resonates with their followers, clients, and patients. Now, getting back to my journey, like most chiropractors, I fell in love with chiropractic from a deeply humanistic standpoint. The philosophy behind chiropractic resonated with me. At the time, as a 20-year-old undergrad, I hadn’t fully considered that I’d also need to be my business owner. Not every doctor in the medical profession has to deal with that, and most aren’t just automatically fed referrals from other providers. Initially, I probably didn’t grasp the insurance game at all. But essentially, I hadn’t thought that having financial conversations with patients would play such a significant and vital role in the success of my practice, both monetarily and in my ability to help more people. As Chad accurately pointed out, a leader in chiropractic would always say you need to balance the business hand with the patient’s hand. If you run your own business, you must keep the lights on first to help more people. If the focus is solely on helping more people without the ability to keep the lights on, you go out of business, and then you can’t help anyone.
So, most doctors, and if you’re listening to this and you’re not a chiropractor but own your practice, you understand this too. You probably didn’t think when you entered your field that you’d need to have these financial conversations. Then, when you realize you do, there are many approaches. Some give it the old college try and wing it, often leading to anxiety about the conversation, worry, doubt, and anxiety about setting your fees. You might look at what colleagues or neighboring practices charge and think that’s what you should do. But that’s as absurd as comparing spouses based on appearances, right? It’s not apples to apples. Or perhaps, depending on your profession and the professional development seminars you attend, you might not feel great about the pricing strategies you’re taught. This leads to waking up anxious about those conversations or going to bed at night feeling unsettled, thinking, ‘This isn’t how I wanted to spend my career.’ Instead of just helping people get well and being fairly compensated by patients who are happy to pay, that’s what I love helping doctors and professionals in my field do: move from doubt, fear, insecurity, and anxiety around setting and communicating fees to feeling great about it. Achieving this transforms your practice into one that’s raved about online and becomes the go-to provider in your community.
It all starts with headspace, which we’re about to dive into. I’ve already hinted at one of the biggest mindset shifts needed: from seeing interactions as transactions to viewing them as opportunities for transformation. Remember this: transformation over transaction. Transactionally, a patient is paying for your time, modality, like laser treatments, or a certain number of sessions. That’s very different from when you deliver an incredible new patient experience, genuinely care about what the patient is dealing with, ask the right questions, and discover what’s missing in their life due to their condition. If you’re confident in your treatment and care, conveying that confidence, certainty, and leadership can transform the patient’s life. It’s not about guaranteeing results—patients understand that not everything is guaranteed. But by presenting your expectations with honesty, leadership, clarity, and simplicity, you show them the potential to get back to their desired life. And it’s not seen as much as a transaction but as an opportunity for their life to change.
This line is crucial: allow patients to pay for the optimistic expectation of the results they’re going to achieve. It’s about offering them an exciting chance to return to the life they want to live, whether that’s enjoying pain-free activities, participating in significant family moments, or simply improving their daily well-being. Every patient is different, and understanding their unique desires and goals is key. They’re not just looking for a quick fix or a discount—they care about their health and well-being. Starting from this understanding, and employing strategies like the six-question consult and five-step recommendations, can transform your practice. But remember, it all begins with the mindset that you’re offering a transformation, not just a transaction. Providing patients with an opportunity for savings while maintaining quality care is a bonus that everyone appreciates. The old college try or feeling uncomfortable with your approach won’t lead to success. It might backfire or leave you feeling unsatisfied. So, Chad, based on all of this, what are your thoughts? Yes, transforming the patient-provider relationship in this way is what I love to do.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, there are two big ideas, a wonderful, beautiful setup, that I want to highlight from what you’ve shared. First, one of the reasons why we, including Dr. Wills and several of my colleagues, have been friends with Josh is because we share a very similar philosophy with Dr. Wagner. Our general litmus test, which we discuss frequently, is about transparency. If patients were to ‘pull back the curtain’ and hear what Dr. Josh Wagner is teaching his practitioners in consultations, behind closed doors at his seminars, or in his online programs, would they feel comfortable with those teachings? This is something I’m also very sensitive about, as I teach and train practitioners across the country. With hundreds of hours of archival training footage, I am confident that both Josh and I can assure that patients reviewing all that material would find nothing manipulative or unethical. We’re not teaching strategies that are out of alignment with ethical practices. That’s the first point I wanted to make right off the bat.
The second point is about confidence. One of the key ideas is that when doctors have confidence in the likelihood of a transformation occurring, it alleviates potential concerns, apprehension, anxiety, and worry that may weigh heavily on a practitioner’s shoulders. Incorporating Erchonia lasers into our practice has significantly boosted this confidence. In the realm of Physical Medicine and healing, it’s challenging to find gold-standard evidence supporting many treatments or modalities. However, Erchonia lasers stand out because they are backed by substantial evidence, including level one, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies and over 20 FDA clearances. This evidence provides clear expectations for patient outcomes based on the research conducted since 1994. Knowing that a patient with a specific condition should respond favorably within a certain timeframe, based on this evidence, has significantly enhanced my confidence. This doesn’t just relieve the weight on my shoulders but allows the lasers to perform as designed and researched. This confidence has greatly improved the conversations we have with patients, underscoring the importance of confidence and leadership in our practice. Using the right tools can indeed lift some of that weight off your shoulders. Does that make sense?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Absolutely, 100%. So, where do you want to go from here? Which topic or angle should we explore next? Yeah, what would be valuable?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I’m interested in the types of questions you’re teaching doctors to ask patients. Specifically, how do these questions facilitate the shift from transactional to transformational interactions? How can we ensure that these conversations feel natural and comfortable for both the practitioner and the patient?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Yeah, Most doctors likely address Activities of Daily Living (ADLs) in some form during their graduate education. I remember initially dismissing their importance in grad school, thinking, ‘Oh, that doesn’t matter.’ However, I’ve come to believe in amplifying their significance. Perhaps these are marked as checkboxes on a consultation form, or lightly touched upon after discussing symptoms and the patient’s subjective experience. The crucial part of the consult involves directly asking the patient where their condition is most interfering with, impacting, or affecting their daily life. The keyword here is ‘most,’ as it focuses the patient’s attention on what significantly disrupts their life, moving beyond generic complaints to what they truly care about, whether it’s not being able to sleep through the night, leaving work early, losing social connections, or experiencing intimacy issues.
It’s a practitioner’s choice to use this information ethically, to genuinely improve the patient’s quality of life, rather than manipulatively. This approach shifts the perspective from transactional—focusing on the package, protocol, or number of sessions—to transformational, emphasizing the impact of treatment on the patient’s life.
Many practitioners fall into discussing their services, such as laser therapy, in transactional terms, comparing their prices to those of others and locking themselves into a standard rate, for example, $100 per session, leading to a $1,200 protocol for 12 sessions. This standard pricing model fails to consider the unique value that resolving a condition like PTSD, Parkinson’s, or chronic migraines could bring to a patient. Rather than confining themselves to what ‘everyone else does’ and potentially undervaluing their services, practitioners should assess the extraordinary change their treatment could make, possibly meriting a much higher valuation, like $2,850, instead of sticking to the conventional $1,200.
This isn’t about extracting more money from patients but about recognizing the true value of the service provided. It’s about rethinking the value exchange from the perspective of the significant, lasting impact on the patient’s life, which could be far greater than the conventional pricing suggests. When this value is communicated effectively, patients are more likely to appreciate the service and willingly invest in their health, understanding that they’re paying for a transformation that goes beyond the session count or the technology used.
By starting from a place of genuine care and aiming to make a real difference in patients’ lives, everything changes in how fees are structured and communicated. This perspective helps patients see beyond the immediate cost, viewing their payment as an investment in a better quality of life, free from the limitations imposed by their condition.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I completely agree. And this point is so crucial that it bears repeating, even though you’ve touched on it earlier. Just yesterday, during a training session with practitioners for a program that includes laser therapy, we emphasized the importance of personal buy-in and team buy-in. This foundation is key to fostering organic growth and success with the program. When you and your team fully believe in the tools and solutions you offer, you’re better positioned to engage in the meaningful internal conversations necessary to view and present this modality in its intended light. This approach enables honest and realistic discussions about the benefits and value of the treatment.
The concept of value, especially when it comes to financial transactions, is highly subjective and varies greatly from one individual to another. Consider the varied perceptions of value as we approach Christmas, for instance. If I were to receive a custom Gibson Les Paul guitar for $500, I’d see it as an incredible deal because I value and enjoy playing the guitar. In contrast, someone with no interest in guitars might view spending $500 on such a gift as wasteful. This stark difference in perception highlights how value is deeply personal.
This is precisely what practitioners need to focus on: identifying what is valuable to each patient. It’s not just about the laser itself but about understanding and communicating how the laser treatment can help patients return to or enhance the activities and aspects of life they cherish. By framing the conversation around the personal value of the outcomes rather than the cost or specifics of the treatment, you change the entire dynamic, making it more about the transformative impact on the patient’s life.
Dr. Josh Wagner: In the deeper exploration of how healthcare providers, particularly those utilizing laser therapy, approach the valuation of their services, it’s clear that a significant shift in perspective is needed. Providers might become deeply invested in their modalities, like chiropractors with specific techniques or those who have discovered the profound benefits of laser therapy. However, expecting the community to share this passion is where the gap lies. The analogy with the guitar illustrates that the perceived value of a service or item can vary greatly depending on personal interest and understanding.
Patients are generally not concerned with the specifics of the laser technology; their focus is on how it can help them resume their normal lives. Therefore, when discussing pricing—whether it’s set at a relatively accessible rate of $1,200, speculated at an exorbitant $50,000, or somewhere in between—the essential message is that patients are investing in the hope and potential outcomes the technology can provide. Such examples underscore the nuanced discussion around pricing strategies and perceived value.
A crucial point raised is that setting the price too low, at $1,200 for example, might inadvertently suggest a lesser value or effectiveness of the treatment, especially for life-altering conditions like Parkinson’s, PTSD, or chronic migraines. Conversely, proposing an unrealistically high figure like $50,000 might set unrealistic expectations about the treatment’s efficacy. This dialogue doesn’t advocate for exorbitant pricing but emphasizes the importance of not undervaluing services based on conventional models or comparisons.
The broader discussion encourages providers to reflect on the significant, transformative value their treatment offers. It’s not merely about the laser but the life-changing impact it has on patients. Thus, pricing should not just reflect the cost of technology but, more importantly, the value of the outcomes it enables for patients. This approach shifts the focus from a transactional exchange to a transformational experience, where the real investment is in the patient’s well-being and future.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, absolutely. Well said. And I’d just like to echo Dr. Wagner’s point: don’t get too fixated on the specific numerical examples he provided. They’re meant as illustrative examples, a starting point for deeper exploration and discussion. This is something you can delve into further on your own, and I encourage you to also engage in conversations with others who use Erchonia lasers, whether that be your Erchonia representative or experts within the Erchonia community. These discussions can offer valuable insights.
For those interested in learning more about Dr. Wagner’s work or in connecting with him beyond this podcast, where can they find you, Dr. Wagner?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Thank you, Chad. If you’re a healthcare provider, especially a chiropractor, there’s a wealth of free training available at patientmastery.com. This is my platform where I share the ‘Three First Strike Strategies’ every doctor can use to significantly boost collections. And for those passionate about mindset, personal growth, and those ‘aha’ moments, I’ve written a book titled ‘You Deserve It All,’ which focuses on the ‘deserving belief’ as a cornerstone for achieving your desires in life, transitioning from feeling undeserving to fully deserving. You’ll find a complimentary PDF download of the book on the website as well. It’s a resource designed to illuminate and guide you on your journey toward success and fulfillment.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Fantastic. Dr. Wagner, thank you immensely for carving out time from your busy schedule to join us in this episode. This conversation has been fantastic, offering a fresh perspective distinct from our previous discussions. It’s incredibly valuable for doctors and equally enlightening for non-physicians who can appreciate the transparency and insights shared here. So, again, our heartfelt thanks for your presence and contributions.
To all the doctors listening, we hope this episode has provided you with a unique perspective and thought-provoking ideas to ponder. We’re excited for you to begin integrating some of these strategies into your practices, aiming to assist more patients and pivot from transactional interactions to transformational relationships that genuinely make a difference.
Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. We look forward to engaging with you in the next episode. Take care, and thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave us a review. For those interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, visit erchonia.com, where you’ll find extensive resources, including research, news, and links to live events, as well as access to our Erchonia e-community for free advanced training and business tools. Thanks again for listening, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.
About The Guest(s):
Dr. Josh Wagner is known for assisting healthcare practitioners, especially chiropractors, in enhancing their patient communication and developing effective headspace strategies. He is not primarily focused on low-level laser therapy but on helping providers become the go-to doctors in their community, facilitating a shift from transactional to transformational patient relationships. Dr. Wagner emphasizes the importance of mindset in achieving this transformation and has contributed significantly to the field through patientmastery.com and his book “You Deserve It All.
Summary:
Episode #37 of The Laser Light Show, featuring Dr. Josh Wagner, diverges from the usual focus on the technical aspects of laser therapy to explore communication strategies and mindset shifts necessary for healthcare providers. Dr. Wagner shares insights on building transformational relationships with patients, moving beyond the conventional transactional approach to care. The episode discusses the balancing act between serving patients and the necessity of getting paid, underlining the significance of valuing services beyond their direct monetary cost.
Key Takeaways:
- Transformation Over Transaction: Shifting the provider-patient relationship from a focus on the financial transaction to the transformative impact of the treatment can enhance patient satisfaction and willingness to invest in their health.
- Mindset Matters: The mindset of healthcare providers plays a crucial role in how they communicate value to patients. Viewing services as a means to significantly improve a patient’s life rather than just another transaction encourages a more meaningful engagement.
- Community Connection: Building a reputation as the go-to doctor in a community involves not just excellence in treatment but also in how providers communicate and relate to their patients on a personal level.
- Value of Services: Healthcare providers should reflect on the true value their services bring to patients’ lives and consider pricing strategies that accurately reflect this value, encouraging a deeper understanding of the benefits of their treatment.
Quotes:
- “I help chiropractors become the go-to provider in their area and get paid well.” – Dr. Josh Wagner
- “It’s about shifting from a transactional conversation or relationship to a transformational relationship.” – Dr. Josh Wagner
- “Everyone listening to this is here to learn something and grow. I know you’re coming from a place of ethical and humanistic values, wanting to help more people get well and to be a pillar in your community.” – Dr. Josh Wagner
- “This dedication isn’t just about the money. Let’s be clear about that.” – Dr. Josh Wagner
