4-Minute Read
Tibial fractures are without a doubt a high-damage injury with the need for intensive rehab. Given that the tibial plateau is one of the key bone structures that support the body’s weight, it is imperative to partake in any physical activity such as walking, running, or jumping. Patients recovering from this type of injury can have difficulty doing everyday tasks. A fracture of the tibial plateau is usually caused by a high-energy impact and on most occasions, requires surgery.
Below we will answer some frequently asked questions about tibial fracture recovery and pain management.
Tibial bone fractures are among the most common long bone fractures seen in 4% of the senior population. This is often due to falls and other accidents. Tibial fractures are also a common sports-related injury among athletes engaging in sports heavy on running and jumping or contact sports such as football, soccer and rugby. Injuries of the tibial bone are also often seen in young children. It is a common pediatric fracture as young children are at risk of breaking limbs even when low force is applied at the time of injury.
For tibial fractures of non-displaced bones, recovery may take three to four months without surgery to heal. For displaced tibial plateau fractures, or when surgery is required, recovery may take around four to six months.
As with any major surgery, postoperative pain is a common complication that can in turn lead to potentially delayed recovery. In one study, of 267 patients with tibial shaft fractures, 147 (55.1%) reported chronic post-surgical pain after one year of surgery. As pain is a natural stressor, it stimulates physiological and psychological responses in the body. As the patient attempts to recover, these responses can cause postoperative complications and have a direct effect on the patient’s recovery time.
Treatment for tibial shaft injuries is generally operative in cases where the bone has been misplaced however, techniques such as physical therapy can aid patients during the process of healing and postoperative pain management. A physical therapist will recommend exercises and treatments to restore the patient’s mobility and alleviate the pain of the patient as much as possible. Therapist will focus on restoring the patient’s joint range of motion and reactivating the leg muscles. However, note that each injury and individual’s healing journey will be different, so recovery time will vary. Physical therapy is also limited when it comes to postoperative pain reduction. It can assist in reducing inflammation and calming the patient’s pain in the long term, however, physical therapy does not itself target the patient’s pain.
Low-level laser therapy (3LT®) is a modern technology that is being used in the field of medicine to treat sport injuries and musculoskeletal disorders. 3LT® is a laser treatment that is a professional’s preferred option for pain killing and wound healing.
3LT® uses irradiation with laser light of low intensity, without utilizing heat. This nonthermal technology causes a photochemical reaction in individual cells that alters cell membrane permeability, leading to increased mRNA synthesis and cell proliferation. In other words, 3LT®reduces edema and inflammation after surgery. 3LT® can even be used during surgery to decrease pain during and after operation. One study found that laser radiation at wavelengths of 650 and 808 nm can decrease postoperative pain and analgesic use in the postoperative period.
3LT® is a proper postoperative pain reduction technique. It is completely safe, painless (of course), and noninvasive. This is why it is easily accepted b y patients and providers alike. If you would like to learn more about this technology, read our blog on how this technology really works. You may also contact Erchonia today to learn more about how our 3LT® treatment can transform your postoperative experience.
5-Minute Read
Childbirth is a remarkable experience for any woman to undergo. During the roughly 9 months leading up to the highly anticipated day, expecting mothers spend a lot of time researching and deciding how they would like their birth to go. If the pregnancy is healthy and there are no medical concerns, doctors will mostly opt for a vaginal birth. Even though “natural births” tend to be preferred by obstetricians, there are many reasons why having a C-section may be safer.
A C-section is a surgery in which your doctor delivers your baby through a surgical incision made in the abdomen or uterus. Cesarean section may be used to deliver your baby if there are complications during labor that could affect your health or your baby’s. However, like with any other major surgery, c-sections may carry long-term symptoms. Learn more about these symptoms and new emerging technologies that are aiding these concerns below.
C-section surgery recovery tends to take longer than vaginal delivery. Because this procedure involves cutting through the abdomen muscles, recovery can take 4 to 6 weeks on average, compared to 1 to 2 weeks for a vaginal birth.
Cesareans can have many of the expected risks involved with any major surgery such as risk of infection, vomiting, headaches, and many more. However, postoperative pain is one of the major concerns expecting mothers have about c-sections. According to the U.S. Institute of Medicine, 80% of patients who undergo surgery report postoperative pain, with moderate to extreme pain levels. These symptoms can lead to potentially severe complications and possibly delay recovery for these patients.
Postoperative pain is an acute form of pain that arises after serious surgical trauma. Post-surgery injured tissue creates muscle spasms, inflammatory reactions, and an afferent neuronal barrage that shock the nervous system. Women experiencing these symptoms feel extreme pain and a pulling sensation months or even years after surgery.
Proper pain management for women who underwent cesarean section is not only essential to decrease infections, and hospitalization, but most importantly, it aids women return to their normal life functions. There are many medical technologies that claim to decrease pain and manage these problems, however, there is one technology that does not only address pain management, but also accelerates the healing of wounds.
Low-level laser therapy (3LT®) is used on cesarean section patients to accelerate surgical wound healing. 3LT®is a professional’s preferred method in the treatment of post-op pain due to its non-invasive and safe technology. This makes it widely accepted by patients because it reduces the risk of overconsumption of analgesics and other pain management drugs. LLLT reduces the edema and inflammation after surgery, speeding up the healing process of wounds and modulating metabolic processes.
3LT® is an optimal option for those looking for alternatives to prescription pain drugs. So how does laser therapy work anyways? This safe, non-invasive treatment works by exposing skin cells to concentrated wavelengths of low-level red light targeted to help increase cell reproduction.
The target? The mitochondria – the body’s powerhouse. For a deeper dive into the link between mitochondria optimal performance and the overall body’s ability to reduce pain and inflammation, check out the blog How Does Red Light Therapy Work?
The second most commonly asked question aside from how the treatment works is, is it safe? 3LT® is an extremely safe, non-invasive, non-toxic and painless treatment that is not associated with any side effects at this time. The treatment is perfectly safe to use in the management of postoperative pain. Read on if you are interested in learning more about the safety concerns of red light therapy.
C-section births are often an option chosen by expecting mothers and sometimes, an in-labor last resort to ensure a safe birth. No matter what the reason may be, dealing with painful postoperative symptoms should not be a long term deal. Contact Erchonia today to learn more about how our 3LT® treatment can transform your childbirth experience.
Join us as we interview Joseph Zapolsky, the International Sales Director for Erchonia. As one of Erchonia’s first employees, Joseph brings a unique perspective on HOW and WHY Erchonia has become the preeminent organization for LLLT, worldwide. Go behind the scenes with Joseph as he tells his professional and personal stories.
https://www.linkedin.com/in/joseph-zapolsky-iii-24b1b342/
Dr. Chad Woolner: Hey, what’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells. And this is episode 25 of The Laser Light Show. And on today’s episode we have with us our good friend, Joseph Sapolsky from Erchonia, and we’re going to be chatting with him about his experience and go from there. So let’s get started.
Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
All right, welcome to the show everybody. And welcome, Andrew and Joseph.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Good to be here. Hey, Joseph, how’s it going?
Joseph Zapolsky: Hey, it’s going great. So happy to finally get to get on an episode and do the podcast with you guys. Obviously, as you know, it’s been a big passion project of mine since we kicked this off. So now to be one of the people that are participating. I couldn’t be more excited.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, just to give the listeners a little bit of context here. We started this podcast really after meeting Joseph and his team at the Parker seminar in Las Vegas. That was really, for Chad and I, one of our first real exposure to low level laser therapy. And, Erchonia really stood out as the front runner in, you know, between all the different companies and people. Not only talking about the benefits of low level laser therapy, but also for people in like the red light therapy space. And so we got a crash course on–we actually just did a recent episode on this couple episodes ago with Dr. Kirk Gair on, you know, the myths and misconceptions about laser therapy.
And we really, Erchonia really sucked us in to their, to what they’re doing in a good way. And we were really impressed with what they’re doing. And so, Joseph, we have you to thank for that because you’re the one who really helped us take our idea of creating The Laser Light Show and spreading the word and the message about low level laser therapy not only to practitioners, but also to patients. It’s cool, we get a lot of patients who listen to this podcast as well. So my hat to you, Joseph, for helping us get this set up.
Joseph Zapolsky: My pleasure. It’s one of those things where God works in mysterious ways. But the timing was absolutely perfect. Because David Tucek, who’s my counterpart here, he does domestic sales, directing, and I do international sales directing, we knew we had to get into the podcast arena, because it’s such a medium now that everybody’s consuming. And it’s such a great way for people to learn about your products, your services.
But from a time management standpoint, we just couldn’t figure out a way to host it and get it done ourselves. And lo and behold, you guys reached out to us through the Erchonia website, like you said, we were able to meet up in Parker Vegas, which is always a fun meeting that Parker University puts on, great way to collaborate with people, make connections. And that got the ball rolling. And now here we are, I think 25 episodes in, we got more episodes planned that you guys are recording right now, not only in the next couple of weeks, but at our annual business meeting. So it’s full steam ahead. And I hope that we put together a product that, like you said, doctors, practitioners, the general public is very happy and excited to hear.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And it’s been a lot of fun, man. And it’s really cool to see just how far this has come in such a short period of time. And yeah, it’s been great.
But so Joseph, we’ve known you for a little while now. But for those who are listening, do you want to give kind of a quick snapshot of your, not only your experience with Erchonia but maybe life pre-Erchonia and your story?
Joseph Zapolsky: Yeah, I would love to. So my current position here at Erchonia now is International Sales Director. Like I had mentioned, I work with David Tucek, who is one of our founders’ sons, and he does domestic sales. But him and I have been joined at the hip running the sales department for coming up on six years now. And just about two years ago, the international arena came under our umbrella as well. So day in and day out, David and I are directing our sales team, both domestically and internationally.
We do have a European office, you guys have done podcasts with several people from that office. And then throughout the other regions of the world, where Erchonia is present, we have distributors.
So day in and day out, a lot of my interaction is coordinating things with these distributors, seeing how to help them get the lasers into different markets. And then once they’re in those markets, how do we showcase the lasers? How do we get into congresses and trade shows in the areas? And how do we educate their doctors? As you guys know, through this podcast, through our seminars, education’s very important to us. So we try to bring that same program to other countries around the world. So doctors can see the differences of low level lasers, and what they can truly do to help people.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that has got to be such…Number one, like, I don’t want to say overwhelming, but maybe it is a bit overwhelming. I mean, for crying out loud. You’re like literally responsible for lasers in the entire world for this company. I mean, that’s, that’s got to…Well, I guess the question right off the top of my head is, what’s that growth look like for you? Because how long have you been with the company?
Joseph Zapolsky: So the growth is unbelievable. We have now been reaching out to all these different areas. And at this point, we’re represented in 48 different countries.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Holy cow.
Joseph Zapolsky: As far as myself, the growth has been really fun because I’ve been with the company 20 years now. And when I started, we were renting four little garage spaces at a business park in Arizona, hoping to make a few sales a month and keep things going; to now you know, 20 years later, being a worldwide entity and getting to do a podcast, connect with some famous people getting to travel other countries. I could have never imagined as a 20-year-old kid building our handheld adjusting instruments in a rented garage all those years ago.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. That’s absolutely incredible. So 20 years, what were you doing before that?
Joseph Zapolsky: So before that, I had finished high school. And I moved out to Arizona where the company was located at that time. And I was just doing young man’s work that I could make good money. Work in swing shift, or graveyard shift. You know, driving forklifts, picking up heavy boxes – things you could earn a good living at that time.
Now, I don’t think I could be picking up those heavy boxes. But I was very fortunate because our owner and president Steve Shanks, he’s our other founder along with David’s dad; I met his nephew in seventh grade. So I’ve actually known the families that own Erchonia for much longer than those 20 years, coming up on 30 years now.
And when I was in Arizona working those warehouse jobs, Erchonia was just starting to get some traction. So David’s dad, Kevin, had known me. I always hung out around the family. And he said, Hey, I can get you some part-time work if you want to make some extra money as a young man. Of course, I was like, “Yeah, let’s do it!”
So I’d work my swing shift or my graveyard shift. And then I come into Erchonia, about three days a week, four hours a day, doing some sub assemblies and part-time assembly work. And within about six months, he said, “Okay, we got enough work now to get you full time.” So I quit my other job, started with Erchonia full time. And here we are 20 years later, and they always afforded me the opportunity to grow. So I stuck with the company and Lord willing, this is my first real job, if you will, and my last job ever.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing.
Dr. Andrew Wells: That also speaks to it. And for people who know Erchonia, they know what I’m saying is true. That story is also representative of Erchonia as a whole, as a company.
And we had this conversation a little bit with Dr. Kirk Gair a couple episodes ago, and talking about how a lot of different device and laser companies seemed to like pop up on the market and then go away. They’re like they’re here, they’re there. And the one thing that I can say and having now met a lot of Erchonia employees is they’re a very long term focused organization; not just with their products, but with the people that work there. And it’s no surprise when you look at all the research that’s been done for laser therapy is pretty much all Erchonia research that the other companies cite. And I think it’s just because Erchonia seems to understand that there’s incredible value in long term strategic goals, and not just looking at getting sales, you know, getting lasers in offices and producing, you know, producing, yeah, just selling equipment. They’re really focused on changing an industry, the healthcare industry. And they’ve done that.
And so to hear, you know, you hear these stories of employees like “I’ve been here for 15 years or 20 years” or “Yeah, I knew them for when I was in seventh grade, for heaven’s sake.” Like, it just goes to show you where Erchonia stands and what they value and their ethics and their principles and why they create the best products on the market.
And so when people say, like, “Well, why can I buy…Why should I get an Erchonia laser versus this other laser that’s maybe less expensive? Or kind of looks the same? Or whatever?” And the answer is always “Well, when you’re lasering someone’s brain, or as some part of your patient’s body, don’t you want to know that what you’re using on them is not like some fly by night company, and that the company that made this thing that you’re putting on your patients is the real thing?”
And that’s what like, when, when Chad and I were at that Las Vegas Parker seminar, that was what we noticed, like, wow, like, why would we, you know, if we’re going to promote a laser company, there was no other option for us. It’s like, yeah, that was pretty clear. And so I love that story. And that, and we heard your story, too, when we were in Las Vegas. And that was also with Penny Sneed, same thing. She has been there for like, 20 some years. That’s really cool. That’s really cool. Thanks for sharing that.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So, Joseph, my other question for you. I’ve got lots of questions. But since you’ve been there the entire time, you’ve seen not only tremendous growth from the business side of things, but no doubt, you’ve seen tremendous growth from the research side from the, you know, kind of clinical side of things. What would you say, is one of or maybe multiple things, in terms of accomplishments that you’ve seen that have been some of the most remarkable to you, maybe like one of those things where “Man, I would have never thought we had accomplished XYZ?” What are some of those accomplishments as a company that you’ve seen, again, predominantly from the clinical research side of things?
Joseph Zapolsky: On the research side, the thing that really stands out to me the most is how many FDA clearances we have been able to garner over my time at the company. And that speaks to how many different indications for use that the lasers have been proven through level one clinical trials to be effective on. When I started here, we’re working with a single diode red laser, it had an old school egg timer that you’d literally turn to the right and listen to it ticking back to the left as it’s treating, but we were going for neck and shoulder pain. And it’s like, okay, we had seen some different things before we proved it through a study that this would work for that application. But now all these years later to not only prove that out, but to see all these different things we’ve been able to treat, you know, a few examples, chronic low back pain, neck and shoulder pain, acne onychomycosis, non-invasive fat loss, that, to me has really been the wow factor. And if I would have looked at it from all those years ago, and go, we’d be here now, with all these indications and things that we’ve proven the lasers can help people with, I would have never thunk it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s got to be again, like, I’m just trying to put myself in your shoes at that time, like saying, this is cool. Yeah, this laser is helping with, you know, pain, right? Which I think, again, at least for me, from where I’m coming from, before really getting to know Erchonia, what they were doing. I kind of like my attitude was kind of like, yeah, yeah, I know, low levels, they help with, you know, musculoskeletal pain, which I shouldn’t be dismissive of, because that in and of itself, is truly a miracle, especially in light of the, you know, opioid epidemic and crisis that we’re seeing right in front of us play out with, you know, all this garbage that’s out there. What a powerful way to help kind of pave the way to showing people a far superior way to solving that problem. But the crazy part is all of a sudden, you know, over that span of time, you’re seeing the application of these lasers in so many other realms and ways. And so the other question kind of hand in hand with that is, what do you foresee coming down the pipeline in terms of the future of lasers? What you know, this is in a span of 20 years. Or what do you see in the next 20 years? Or what do you hope to see in the next 20 years?
Joseph Zapolsky: I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the opioid epidemic. As a company, what I hope for and what we see is looking at the current situations where this country, or countries around the world have an epidemic. Have a real problem to deal with. And we may have a way with lasers to help that. And do so in a completely non-invasive, pain free, drug free way.
And I think one of the things that we’re the most passionate about and where we’d like to see the company go, as we work into the future, is when it comes to brain based applications. So we’ll be looking at research as far as Alzheimer’s, dementia, things that you’re seeing are serious problems. And if you look at some of the stats, doctors that we work with, like Dr. Dan Murphy, will run the numbers at the seminars he does, it’s going to cripple the health care system on how much money is being spent for those kinds of neurodegenerative disorders.
So if we can offer a way to help with that, it’s something we’re very excited about, something we’re very proud about. The other thing is, I’d like to see some research as we’ve evolved from non-invasive fat loss, which is a very aesthetic procedure, people all want to look good, feel good. But if we can maybe look at some of the ways when we do this fat loss, how it’s affecting blood markers, as far as cholesterol, A1C, how it may be helping with diabetic peripheral neuropathy, which is something we’re doing a study for, I think those are ways we can expand how we’re doing the research, and really help some serious issues that this country in the world at large is dealing with.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it’s kind of interesting, when you look at the economics of healthcare, and/or even just say, sick care. The question that might be coming to mind for people is like, “Why aren’t low level lasers more mainstream?” You know, and without sounding conspiratorial, the reality of it is that economics support the current model.
The way things are, you know, that that industry, you know, big pharma and/or the kind of, you know, Western medicine model right now is established and set up in such a way that there are very much deeply vested groups, special interest groups that don’t really have a tremendous incentive to change things all that much. And quite frankly, especially when it comes to shifting things away from, you know, a ongoing, what do we call that recurring revenue model in terms of pharmaceuticals, you know, that they’ve got, you know, their biggest blockbuster drugs are all these, you know, quote, unquote, like lifestyle medications.
And so I think the thing you said, that’s interesting, Joseph is, at some point in time, people are going to have to recognize even the vested special interest groups are going to have to recognize. You’re going to, you’re going to reach a tipping point, so to speak, you know, where all of a sudden the cost of not doing something is going to, you know, what I mean, exceed the potential loss of revenue from switching to a more effective, safer, more cost-effective solution like lasers, you know, what I mean? Kirk Gair had kind of briefly mentioned this where, like over in Russia, they’ve been ahead of the curve in terms of low level laser therapy. And we had kind of posed the question to him, “Well, why do you think that is? Why does that seem to be the case?” And he said, well, from his perspective, it was simply a matter of dollars and cents, you know, that they’re very much because it’s socialized medicine over there, if they’re, they’re incentivized the opposite, you know, to make sure that they keep costs down, so that they can really be effective in that realm. And so that’s at least one of the reasons but in terms of, does that make sense in terms of, you know, at some point in time, thinking that there’s going to be this kind of tipping point?
Joseph Zapolsky: It does, it makes perfect sense. And I actually think that we’re already starting to see that awakening in this country, where you’re starting to see a lot of doctors working towards functional medicine, working towards preventative medicine, to get ahead of the problems. And like you said, keep the costs down. As sad as that may seem as a way to practice medicine, you’re going to get to a tipping point where the current system can’t keep up with what the problems are presenting and what they’re costing.
And that is starting to be something I’m seeing a lot more of. So I hope we really do make that change, especially here in the United States. The other thing I’m hoping, which I’m so thankful our owner Steve Shanks was of this mindset. When I first started working for Erchonia a lot of people look to us shining a red light on someone’s shoulder for pain going “You guys are out of your mind. A bunch of craziness, you know, just voodoo medicine!”
And now that he’s really pushed the research and proven it through these level one clinical trials. So the highest form of science to show safety and efficacy. Now you go on PubMed, and there’s a lot of peer-reviewed and published articles. And people are starting to realize, okay, there’s some other ways we can do things here. And a way we can really fight the status quo and make a change.
Dr. Andrew Wells: One of the coolest things we’re seeing in healthcare right now is this really big push into, this is kind of a catchy word right now, but like the biohacking world. And so you now have people who as a result of just traditional health care are really finding solutions on their own. And that’s one of the benefits and curses of the internet, is you can go on and do research on fixing your own health problems.
Because I mean, man, when least in terms of chronic health care, like our system is not doing a good job of that. And so people are now taking it in their own hands to get themselves better. And I really see, and correct me if I’m wrong, Joseph, but through doctor’s prescription, I would see lasers becoming a almost like a household tool for families to be able to use. Not just because they’re powerful tools, but because of the scope of what you can use them for.
We talked about fat loss, we talked about pain, we talked about the potential for brain health. We talked about toenail fungus of all things like what it’s almost like what can a laser not do? It seems like almost like a Jedi wand, you can use it for all these different things. And so where my mind went, as I’m hearing this is just a really powerful tool that a family would have in their quote unquote, medicine cabinet. They would have light therapy. And my question for you, Joseph, like, how are you using this at home? I got to imagine you’ve been with a company now for a long time. What does that look like for your health and like your family’s health?
Joseph Zapolsky: Yeah, and I agree with you, Dr. Wells. I think it’s something that if we do it the right way, proving it out through the studies that are required to show that it can be used at home. As you mentioned, it is a prescription device. So a doctor does have to prescribe it for a patient to use it. It could be something that could help with a lot of different issues people experience at home. And sometimes they may not be able to see a doctor all of the time. So they might benefit from using it on a more regular basis.
Myself personally, I’ve been very fortunate working for this company. I have a daughter who has Down syndrome. That was something that we did not know about until she was born. My wife working in the medical field does everything by the book. So all of the blood work she did, all of the scans, she did all the things you do through a normal pregnancy, showed no signs of any problems.
So until our daughter was born, Cecilia, we had no idea that she had Down syndrome. Now with the guidance of Dr. Trevor Berry, who has been on the podcast, Dr. Dan Murphy, who has been on the podcast, and Dr. Robert Silverman who has been on the podcast, we were able to get some good guidance from them on chiropractic care for her, on laser therapy for her, on nutrition for her. Not only her but mom, when she was breastfeeding when she was doing the things early in development. And we’ve been so fortunate that her development is ahead of the curve. She’s been unbelievably healthy. I probably say the only problem is she’s just ornery so all things considered. We’re pretty lucky and we’ll take that but it just goes to show how having those kinds of resources and you mentioned Dr. Wells people looking at what they can do to improve the health and well being of themselves and their families. This becomes another tool that can play a wonderful part in that
Dr. Chad Woolner: I’d like to dive just a little bit deeper if you don’t mind Joseph, on this because this is fascinating to me, you know. Down syndrome is a fairly common you know, diagnosis. You know, there I don’t know what the percentages, but I think we all probably know someone have a family member or a friend that you know has Down syndrome. And so when you say that it’s helped, can you can you quantify that in any way or give us a little bit more of a tangible like, what would your daughter look like without doing this you know, in terms of, and I know you’re not just putting it all on laser it’s just it’s laser, and it’s magic obviously you’re talking a more holistic approach of diet, lifestyle, chiropractic, all of that included. But maybe paint for those listening who either; A have a family member or a friend with Down syndrome, you know or know someone who does, what does that look like with or without you know, if you weren’t doing those things, what would things look like? What has it looked like since doing those things?
Joseph Zapolsky: Absolutely. And I think you really hit the nail on the head Dr. Woolner as far as the holistic approach. And what I mean by that is it’s a combination of the right foods, the right nutrition, laser therapy, and then not only that, but anybody out there that’s listening, that may be struggling with these things, you’re going to be your child’s best advocate.
So get out in your local community and find the right resources. There’s different therapies, different school systems, things that can really help. So I think the combination of that, when I’m painting the picture for other people is; on a growth chart, she just had her checkup at seven years old. They’ve never put her on the growth chart for a child with Down syndrome. She’s on a growth chart for a normal child her age. And she’s in the 90th percentile as far as height, which a lot of kids with Down syndrome, they do not grow as tall. When it comes to what she’s able to do as far as physical activity, playing, climbing, running, jumping, she has no issues. I believe that big combination of the physical therapy she received from her schooling system, the laser, and the proper nutrition.
We’ve also been very fortunate that so far, at seven years old, she has never had a surgery. And she’s had no problems with her hearing and her sight, which once again, for people out there who know or who have someone in their family with Down syndrome. Those are very common things that they deal with. So am I going to sit here and go, “Oh, the laser magically fixed all that!” No, I think it’s one resource in a toolbox that we were very fortunate to have at our disposal to help with her development and her health.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s so cool to me almost to the point of like, goosebumps when you’re sharing that, like seriously, is it’s not just this, like subjective, nebulous, like, “We think she’s doing better” you know what I mean? Like, because as a parent, I would want to lean that way, if I had a child that needed some attention and some help, I would want nothing more than to lean into that and hope and start to like, almost like, I don’t want to say imagine things, but I think it’s only inevitable that you want to. And so what’s cool about this is that here, you’re talking very concrete, objective measures that you can see. And again, not attributing 100%, it’s all because of the laser. But at the same token to you got to attribute something to the to the laser there. You can’t just say, “Oh, no, that’s just because of…” because I guarantee you there are those out there who probably do incorporate good nutrition, and other things, and maybe aren’t seeing potentially the same, you know, objective results that they would potentially hope for. And so you have to imagine laser is playing a critical role in that as well. So that’s, that’s really exciting to hear that, you know that it’s not just this, like crossing your fingers subjective hope, I hope it’s working, I think it’s working. But instead, you’re seeing, like, very objective measures there. That’s incredible.
Joseph Zapolsky: Very fortunate, I’m very thankful to be a part of this company, where I not only have the lasers that we can use, but we’ve been so fortunate to work with the doctors we have, and I mentioned a few of them there. So to be able to get their guidance and their help. It’s just a wonderful support system. And like you had mentioned Andrew, talking about the Erchonia family, it really is a family and to have that support system as well. It’s been great, and I couldn’t be more thankful.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yes, for those who are listening, I would simply say, and I really do mean this with all sincerity, Erchonia has done…if there’s one thing Erchonia has done, they’ve done a lot of right things. But if there’s one thing they’ve really done, right. They have curated some of the world’s best experts. They’ve done…we’ve said this before, I think on the podcast, but that’s and that’s one of the coolest things we get as a result of being able to host this podcast, the opportunity to talk to these experts. But literally the smartest doctors in the world are all involved with Erchonia.
And so it’s really cool to be able to see how Erchonia has just done that, and continues to do that, you know. There’s certainly an, I think, an attraction factor there when, you know, brilliant doctors see the research that Erchonia is doing they gravitate towards it. And so that’s, again, one of the cool things that for those listening, I think a certain peace of mind and reassurance that’s there knowing that it’s not just the technology but also the company that Erchonia keeps. They bring in some of the world’s best. And so it’s really cool to see that and to see that information, because collectively that makes a big difference, you know, moving forward with the knowledge base and/or you know that in and of itself being such a powerful resource for practitioners and for patients alike.
Dr. Andrew Wells: One of the things I’m noticing with laser therapy, that if you’re as I’m now as I now know about laser therapy and that’s…now seeing trends you saw years ago. Everybody, like Joseph mentioned earlier, he started with like one red light and now and then Erchonia moved to using violet lights and I think the violet lights were also…correct me if I’m wrong. So those were, I believe, Kirk Gair mentioned that those were…in that research, some of that was done in Russia. Is that correct?
Joseph Zapolsky: There has been research done in Russia with the violet lasers. There was also some done at the University of Illinois. And then, what Erchonia has done as well. So obviously that portfolio, or that library of research when it comes to violet lasers, specific ones at 405 nanometer, is ever expanding.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, and I’ve yet to see companies, other than Erchonia, put that research into actual practical lasers. So you have red, you have violet and you also have green. I don’t see anybody…other companies doing that, but I see other companies now trying to kind of emulate that and start to do that as well. So just another plug for Erchonia that they’re always on the cutting edge of what laser therapies are doing. But also are forward thinking in that respect where they saw, you know they saw the benefit and did it before anyone else was doing it. And I think, yeah, that just shows the wisdom and longevity of Erchonia as a company.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So, Joe-
Joseph Zapolsky: And hopefully we can, oh sorry, go ahead.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, you keep going, Joseph.
Joseph Zapolsky: Hopefully we can continue to do that, because it’s something that’s important to us as a company to be at the forefront of what laser therapy can do to help people, and not every research project is going to work. Not everything we try to come up with is going to come through and be the next greatest thing. But as a company, it’s important for us to continue to push that envelope and the category of low level laser. So for anybody who is interested in us as a company, who has already supported us by purchasing a laser, about using our equipment. We’re going to continue to do that, so rest assured as we move into the future, that is important to Erchonia, to expand what lasers can do to keep solidifying the laser’s safety and efficacy through research and also to continue educating. I think we’ve done a great job educating in the US. Now it’s time to take that more globally so other countries, the distributors we’re working with can share that information as to why what we’re doing is different.
Dr. Chad Woolner: To that end, Joseph, you had mentioned earlier that you’ve got coming up here in November, Erchonia annual business meeting for the practitioners, specifically, who are listening. What can they expect at this year’s business meeting? What in terms of kind of the event itself, and or any exciting announcements or any cool things that are coming down the pipeline that you can hint at, or drop hints at, or give us as much information as you’re at liberty to give.
Joseph Zapolsky: So the annual business meeting is our funnest event of the year. If you need more information, you can hop on Erchonia’s website and look at all of the stuff we’re doing and get registered there. Just Erchonia.com. But it’ll be November 3rd through 5th. It’s at the Ritz Carlton in Orlando, and this year is going to be our best event ever.
We have two different educational tracks at the meeting. One will offer CE hours for chiropractors, which is the first Healthcare Group that supported us, so it’s important for us to give back. So while they’re attending on the Thursday, and Friday, they can get 12 CE hours for being there.
We’re then going to have a medical room which is going to have MDs, DOs, nurse practitioners, and podiatrists teaching about different ways lasers can help in their professions. So there’s the chance for education, and like you had mentioned, the best doctors in the world teaching these classes. Now also, we’re going to be doing live episodes of the podcast with you guys there, which is an exciting new add. We have never done that, so there’s going to be a lot of people doing live podcast episodes there on Friday.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s gonna be fun.
Joseph Zapolsky: Oh yeah. Oh yeah! On Friday, evening we’re doing a cocktail party and it’s going to be a masquerade ball, which to me is very exciting. I think everybody after the pandemic’s looking to get out, dress up nice, have some fun. So that’ll be something we do there.
And on Saturday we do a golf tournament which I’m hoping to win for the second time in three years with the help of Trevor Berry and we all have a ringer on our team. His name is EJ. He’s the partner of Diana DaGrosa, who did one of the podcast episodes with you and, man can he hit a golf ball well. So that’ll be what we’re doing at the meeting, along with the possibility of introducing a new product and having a celebrity guest speaker there, which I can’t divulge those details, but we would love for you guys to come take a look at it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So yeah, lots to look forward to. And so for docs who are listening, go to Erchonia website and they can register right now. Cost for the event is, I’m just looking right now, I’m on the website. What’s the cost for the event?
Joseph Zapolsky: It’ll vary depending on what you want to do, cause we’ve made it customizable, where you can just do the education classes.
Dr. Chad Woolner: OK.
Joseph Zapolsky: Just do the cocktail party. Just do the golf tournament. So it really depends what you want to take part of.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You know that that’s the other thing too, in terms of CEs, that’s one of the things that I’ve always just admired about Erchonia is they always provide some of the most cost-effective ways for docs to get CE credits. And you know, I’ll admit I was one of those docs for a long period of time where it was like when it…when CE time came, it was always “OK. What’s going to be the lowest cost and the quickest and easiest and if it happens to be entertaining and/or enlightening and cool, that’s just a bonus cherry on top.” I know that’s, like, embarrassing to admit, but. It’s just the truth, but since then you know, and especially since with Erchonia, it’s like you go to these events and they do such a phenomenal job again with really providing just such incredible, I’ll give a huge shout-out to Jerome Rerucha.
I went to his Erchonia seminar in Salt Lake. Man, talk about powerful hands-on application that was so clinically relevant. We’ve, we’ve adopted and incorporated at least three or four components of what he taught. Just as a direct result of what he taught in our clinic. And so just, I’m sharing this for practitioners because if you haven’t yet been to another Erchonia event, what better opportunity and what better time to jump in than their business event this year? And if you have, you know what I’m saying. You know that they do just such an incredible job. And so we’re really looking forward to that. I think that’s going to be a ton of fun, and I’m excited to see what kind of the new announcements are. I think that’s going to be…we’ve got some exciting stuff that no doubt will be. We’ll be discussing on future podcast episodes for sure.
Joseph Zapolsky: Yeah, absolutely, and that event, I mean, we pride ourselves on having a good time as a company. So if you haven’t yet had a chance to experience it, I promise you’re going to have a really fun time. The property is beautiful, the golf course is beautiful. It’s just so much fun and for anybody that may be listening, that’s thinking of coming in from out of state, It’s also a wonderful place if you’re bringing family with you, friends with you. Because being in that central Orlando area you’re close to Disney World, you’re close to Universal Studios. Obviously, it’s one of the towns that has so much as far as entertainment and dining. Because there’s so many conferences in the area. So it’s a great place to come where maybe you don’t only come to our meeting, but you make it a bit of a trip and enjoy the rest of the stuff that Central Florida has to offer, while you’re in town for, you know, five days a week.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it’s going to be incredible, man going to be…and it’s beautiful. It’s at that Ritz Carlton, correct? Correct, yeah, what? What an incredible…I’m looking at the picture right now. It is. Yeah, it’s going to be an incredible venue. It’s going to be a ton of fun. So fantastic Andrew. Anything else you wanted to go over?
Dr. Andrew Wells: No, the event’s just a month away, so make sure to go on the website. Get a ticket, make some travel plans if you need to fly in and. And yeah, I haven’t been to this event yet, but we’ll be there in a month. Chad and I both, and we’re really looking forward to it. And I know from talking to other docs and it’s just an amazingly fun educational event and it’s right before the holidays when docs and patients start to like wind down before the holidays.
So this is like one more like business, really fun business event before you know at that time of year people kind of get dormant in the month of December. So let’s go out in style. I’m looking forward to it. And Joseph, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thanks for sharing your story and your history with Erchonia and some of your family and personal stories. That means a lot to us and I think will also mean a lot to our audience. And also to know that you guys practice what you preach. And that says a lot about you and your company and the products that you guys use so thank you.
Joseph Zapolsky: My pleasure guys, I really enjoyed being on here and sharing and it’s one of the best parts of this journey. And not only do I get to make a nice living, but doing so in a manner that helps a lot of people. I love it and hopefully I’ll be back on for a future episode and maybe we can dive into some different topics or different things you guys think that the audience would want to hear.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome, man, for sure. That is absolutely for sure. So Joseph, if we don’t see you in person before then, which I don’t think we will, we are going to see you here real soon, just in a few short weeks at the business event. And for those listening, if you guys are planning on attending the business event, please make sure to connect with us in person. We’d love to see you. Let us know if you’re a listener of the podcast and we get a kick out of that, so looking forward to connecting with all of you as well in person. And thanks for listening to this episode. We’ll chat with you guys on the next step, so have a good one.
Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchnoia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter explores the science behind the powerful benefits of laser therapy for concussions and other brain-related health issues. If you want to hear some amazing and miraculous stories from the trenches, you will not want to miss this episode. Join us as we explore concussions and lasers with Dr. Hieshetter.
https://www.bestflorencechiropractor.com
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody, Dr. Chad Woolner here and this is episode 24 of The Laser Light show and on today’s episode we have with us Dr. Kristen Hieshetter and we’re going to be talking about lasers for concussions. So let’s get started.
Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, welcome to the show. Dr. Wells, how are you doing? Good.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Doing great. Thanks. Awesome. Yep.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Welcome Dr. Kristen Hieshetter. How are you? Good to have you here with us.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: Thank you for having me on board. I think this is going to be a fun little snippet of my day.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. So tell us a little bit about yourself where you’re from, what you do, and what you love about lasers. Let’s start there.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: Thank you so much. I’m originally from Michigan, I practiced in a very small town called Newbury, Michigan for about 11 years. And that was where I first began working with low level laser therapy. I bought an XLR8 handheld device. And at the time, my clinic was located in a specialty clinic of a hospital so they ran all my labs and all my X-rays. It was a really neat setup, but I only had two treatment rooms.
And after purchasing one laser, I fixed a patient who was a rather prominent figure in the community. He had had a stroke in 2013. I lasered his brain using Dan Murphy’s cranial protocol in February 2016. And by April that year, he was walking and talking and picking up rocks in his 60 acre field, which he hadn’t done since his stroke. So when people in the small town saw what we had done for this gentleman, my clinic became so busy that I had to relocate. I purchased a building across the street from the hospital, I was still an affiliated physician, so they still ran all my tests for me. But in the purchase of that building, I had to get the FX 635. The 405 hadn’t been invented yet. So I got the 635 and a base station. And from there it was lasering everybody that came through the door.
We fixed so many different conditions, not just related to spine but related to pain because I was a hospital affiliate and I had a registered nurse who worked with me. If a medical doctor had written a prescription for a certain treatment protocol, we were able to legally do it – Michigan’s quite restrictive in their scope.
So that clinic did very, very well, for a number of years. And my husband, he was a chemical engineer, I was offered a position down in South Carolina. So that’s where I now practice. We started our clinic in August of 2020. So during the middle of a global pandemic, yeah, we opened up in a hyper saturated, basically hyper saturated area, as far as chiropractic goes. And we were still able to grow, survive the pandemic, and create a really amazing clinic in a town where nobody knew who we were. And it was because we’re doing things with lasers that no one around here is doing, which is thrilling for me, you know, I love it. And as we were talking before we came live. I love teaching other doctors to use these protocols, because I can’t put my hands on every person. I can’t show the protocols to every single person. But the more doctors who truly understand the power of these devices, and why you would want to put a laser on every patient. That’s my passion. We can’t possibly reach everybody by ourselves. But as chiropractors we’ve seen over the past decades, that as long as we team up and have a clear concise message and deliver care that goes above and beyond. We do very very well. So that’s pretty much why I love lasers. I will never practice without them.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, I wanted to bring up an interesting point, and thank you doctor for mentioning a little bit about your background. I didn’t know where Newberry Michigan was so I looked it up as we were talking here, and you, it is a small town and that’s in the U.P. (Upper Peninsula), correct?
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: Yes. I had over 8,000 patient charts. There were only 2,000 people in the town. So basically, I had people traveling hours to come to me.
My most interesting patient case was, well I had a lot of them, but I became reputable. I had one patient who was very old, she had horrific scoliosis and she had a compression fracture. And on Monday, she was able to walk into the clinic. By Wednesday, she was in a wheelchair. So they had just wanted her to go to the ER and put her on pain meds and do all the ridiculous stuff. Well, her neurosurgeon was at the University of Michigan, and we called his PA, because he was operating at the time. The PA texted what was happening with this patient, and I said, she’s not going to get better with laser. This is what happened. He then, because we were so rural, you had to airlift these people. So we airlifted this patient to University of Michigan, she got emergency surgery, but the respect that I had earned by being a very good clinician, and by being able to articulate what I was what I was doing with these low level lasers, gave me the professional latitude to call up a neurosurgeon at U of M and say, Hey, she’s got a compression fracture, it’s only visible on the left posterior oblique, the radiology team missed it, I have to get her to you. And so he said, “okay.” And she flew down, and she was walking again in three months.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Wow, that’s an amazing story. And the interesting thing I wanted to bring up about being a reputable doctor in a small town is we’re going to segue in a minute to talk about concussions, which is what this episode is about, but you help somebody with a stroke. And then those people talk, they hear things, and then all of a sudden, you get, I imagine, I’m just guessing you’re getting now back pain patients, you’re getting patients with other things, probably saying, Hey, can lasers help with XYZ?
And the interesting thing about lasers is it can help with concussions, but they also help with lots of other conditions and things that patients are suffering with. And so I just find that, I find that really, I find that small town communication process really fascinating. And then here you are with this amazing tool to help a lot of different people with different things. And you said what, eight, you had 8,000 files with 2,000 people. That’s incredible.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: It’s pretty wild. It was pretty wild. And it’s my joy. And I still keep in touch with a lot of folks from that region. I’ve been doing telehealth all through COVID. I drop shipped all of our brain protocol supplements to these people. Six of them have become chiropractors now. So it’s been a fun ride. It’s been a fun ride. Yeah. Cool.
Dr. Chad Woolner: For me the question as you were sharing all this the question that you kind of touched on a little bit, but I’d like to maybe probe a little bit deeper here. Is the relationship dynamic in a small town like that between you and other health care professionals, particularly the medical community, right, obviously affiliated with the hospital? What was the response that they were seeing, not only from that pretty dramatic, stark experience with the post stroke, but just in general, lasers for these other patients where they were they were they open to it? Were they just indifferent about it? Or were they actually starting to take notice of it as well and be like, “Wow, this is a legit service that she’s, you know, a resource.”
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: I think there were perhaps a couple of physicians that were almost standoffish, okay. But 90% of them would send me their pain patients or patients that they just couldn’t fix. And one of my dear friends is a cardiologist in that region. His wife is a physical therapist. He was getting chronic headaches because he was a, you know, seven foot tall former javelin thrower for Michigan State University. And he was a concussion patient. He is a cardiologist who’s seven feet tall. When you’re in the ER trying to put the defibrillator on the patient and trying to do CPR. He had hit his head on some of the low hanging equipment. And sustained a concussion himself. Yeah.
So of course as a concussion patient is a seven foot ER doc cardiologist, brilliant guy and his wife’s a physical therapist. I’d worked on them before for other things. I’d adjusted their baby and their daughter and so they said, “What do you do for concussion?” I said, Well, we maximize brain health, we maximize brain energy and ATP. So in chiropractic that means low level laser, medium chain triglycerides, acetyl, l carnitine, alpha lipoic acid, magnesium to plug the calcium channels. And so that way we take the brain astrocytes that are sick from getting clocked in the head and make them healthy again.
So as a cardiologist, well, how do the astrocytes get sick? Well, when we get hit in the head, we throw the plug on the NMDA receptor, we’ve got to replug that or too much calcium is going to rush into this cell, the cell is going to become a sick brain cell, and that sick brain cell is gonna become a dead one. If we don’t stop that neurometabolic cascade. Well, how do we do that? We pop a laser on it, because the laser, not only is it going to help close that calcium ion channel, but it’s going to upregulate the metabolism, metabolism of the brain so we can pump out those metabolic byproducts that have already built up.
We know that if the mitochondria get too backed up, you’re not going to be able to clear those toxins as efficiently so the excess glutamate, the excess sportaid, those are all going to continue to make your brain cells sick if we don’t pump them out. So then he says, “Okay, well, what about the fatigue of concussion?” And I said, Oh, buddy, this is the best part.
So we know that you hit the back of your head, when you were doing CPR on your patient, all of the energy that your brain is producing is going to the back of your head right now to heal the damaged area. Correct. And he says “of course.” This is why you can’t think this is why you have brain fog. Your brain is not devoting any energy to your cortex, your prefrontal cortex and your homunculus and your temporal lobes, we’ve got to get the energy back in those areas.
How do we make a meaningful upregulation in ATP? Number one, medium chain triglycerides, right because the brain can function 60% better on those than it can on sugar or carbs. And then we put a laser on it because now we’re getting that cytochrome c oxidase activation, we’re getting 36 ATP per electron transport chain cycle, and we’re knocking out the free radical production. So I’ve thrown out enough of the big fancy words where my buddy was convinced. We used it to treat his concussion, and his was severe. It took about two weeks before he wasn’t dizzy.
But at that time, we were also adjusting the cervical spine and working on other places in his body. And it was really neat because he had been driving from Northern Michigan all the way down to Grand Rapids for about an eight hour trip to get Botox injection in his suboccipital musculature. After working on him with chiropractic care and low level laser, he stopped doing that. And his wife was so excited that they didn’t have to make this crazy trek down to lower Michigan in the wintertime with two little teeny tiny kids. They ended up actually purchasing a laser. Wow. So they still Yeah, yeah, it’s really cool. So we’ve made a lasting impact on these health providers who really understand what it’s about. They don’t want to be without it once they see the value of what these devices can do.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s amazing.
Dr. Andrew Wells: We’re, as we’re talking about this, Dr. Hieshetter, Chad and I just had a conversation this last weekend about and looking at some of the really sobering statistics that the CDC is putting out in terms of brain health. So not just for concussions, and TBIs. But when you look at neurodevelopmental problems, when you look at cognitive decline, dementia, Alzheimer’s, I think the stat was and correct me if I’m wrong, Chad, that by the year 2050, which is 28 years from now, that half of children born in the US will will be born with an autism spectrum disorder. Is that I get that right Chad?
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s what I’ve heard. Exactly what I’ve heard. Yeah.
Dr. Andrew Wells: And similarly when you look at older folks, is that half of the population I believe would die with a neurodegenerative disease. Yeah, so we’re talking about half the population just born and half the population who are in their older years. And think of the personal impact of those conditions but also the global impact on everybody in society. What that’ll have, it’s a very scary, very sobering statistic. And as you’re talking about brain health, you seem to light up a little bit and get excited about that because as it exists right now, in conventional medicine, there are literally no tools for this. I mean, you’re mentioning like how, and no offense to the cardiologist but how insane it is to have to go and get Botox injections in the musculature right like I understand there might be some therapeutic value for that but probably is doing literally nothing to help the brain heal.
And just in here, you have probably a very brilliant doctor, a cardiologist, probably very passionate about what he does and, and like, what do you do for, you know, what do you do for somebody suffering with a brain health issue. And so no doubt that this is probably why you’re busy practitioner and why you’ve been successful in your practice in Michigan and South Carolina, just you’re helping people with with problems that are conventionally very difficult to solve, or just having no like, no, literally no tools in the tool belt, in terms of solving these problems.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So yeah, the the point that I was gonna bring up too sorry, I was just gonna say the point that I was gonna bring up too, that you made mention of is this whole idea of, you’d said, you know, if we don’t intervene with something, the sick brain cells are gonna die. And it’s frightening to think that one of the standard protocols associated with concussion is just kind of this watch and wait mentality of just kind of let’s just wait it out, you know, when what you were hinting at is that time is of the essence, right? If you’ve had a head injury and a brain injury, timing is critical. We know that with things like stroke, and yet, for whatever reason, that hasn’t yet, kind of permeated in terms of concussion, either. You know, concussion, the standard is like, oh, you’re okay, you’re not dead. So let’s just kind of wait. And what you’re showing there is like, you can get on top of this, and you should get on top of it as quickly as possible to start kind of stopping some of the, you know, detrimental effects that will take place.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: And we did that too, you know, for our football players, or hockey players or soccer players. They were coming in for prophylactic laser treatment all throughout their seasons. And I was very fortunate, because I could offer treatment packages that were very affordable for these patients. And so what I would do is say, okay, during your season, you can come in, and for $300, you have unlimited access to the laser all season long. Every athlete, so two to three times a week, as often as these kids could get in, they’re getting under the laser. Because we know that upregulating ATP ahead of a concussion helps. We know that taking omega 3 fatty acids ahead of the concussion helps. Taking adequate magnesium so that your body can run those metabolic pathways is going to be preventative. Adequate vitamin D is going to be preventative, a good iron free copper free multi, without any preservatives or titanium dioxide, you know, come get the multis from us because they’re better. So we would package it up and give the jocks 20% off your vitamins and a discounted laser package to continue to keep your brain healthy through your season. Because you’re right, you won’t notice the symptoms right away. But you’ll be a person who wakes up at age 35 and can’t find your car keys anymore. You forgot where this is, you forgot where that is, or your spouse may notice that you’ve got personality changes, because the brain neurons, the mirror neurons in particular, the neurons that say, oh, yeah, I can tell my wife’s a little bit peeved at me, I think I’m going to dial down my response or formulate an appropriate response when those neurons become sick and damaged. Now we’ve got a spouse whose personalities are different from the person we married.
And you see this time and again, I don’t know if you remember the story of Mike Webster in the Philadelphia or Pittsburgh Steeler who had gotten a concussion. But when they figured out what he had, and Dr. Bennet Omalu wrote on his death certificate brain disease instead of suicide, and all of the newspapers blew up, and everybody was freaking out, and they’re saying, wait a minute, he committed suicide. And that was what the coroner wanted on the autopsy report. Well, Dr. Bennet Omalu was this very religious guy. I don’t know if you’ve read his book. It’s beautiful. But he would pray over every patient and he would say, “Okay, I’m sorry that you came to be here this way. Mike, show me how you died.”
So he does this autopsy on like Webster, physiologically, he’s banged up. He played football, but he’s normal. And when they get to his mouth, they see that Mike Webster had been pulling out his own teeth and super gluing them back in his head. And in the movie, they open in that scene. So Bennet Omalu says, “Okay, why in the world would somebody be pulling out their teeth and super gluing them back in? That makes no sense. He’s an American football player. He’s on a throne. They’re like gods, why? Why would this happen?”
So he covered up Mike’s body, went home, came back the next day, and prayed again and just decided to start slicing through brain tissue. And this man had a brain that looks like an 85 year old Alzheimer’s or Parkinson’s patient. There were plaques, but he was only 50. So it didn’t fit the profile. And Mike Webster (sic) then writes on the death certificate that he died of a brain disease.
And it blew up the news. And he refused to change his clinical diagnosis. He refused to back down and the NFL didn’t like that. But now Mike (sic) starts getting all these calls from all these NFL players wives, saying, “My husband flipped the crazy switch. He’s an alcoholic, he’s become violent. He’s doing this. He’s doing that.” You know, they tried to silence him, but he refused to back down on this issue. When you look at statistically 210 out of 211, NFL football players autopsied back and want to say 2013, this study was they all had chronic traumatic encephalopathy, all but one.
And if we can offset that, and give these guys a normal life, why wouldn’t you want to do that? And so there are ways to love your game, and protect your brain doesn’t mean you’ll never develop it. I have no idea. But we can do better than we’re doing. And when you look at the fact that our government defunded research for Alzheimer’s medicines in 2018, because they couldn’t find anything that targeted all 36 separate and distinct causes of Alzheimers, what am I going to do? I’m gonna put a laser on it. I’m just gonna grab up my laser and laser my brain every day to keep those ATP pumps going, I’m going to use my supplements every single day. Anything we can do to offset our risk is something that we should all be doing because like you guys said, These statistics are staggering. If 50% of our adult population is going to have a brain disease. And 50% of our youth population is going to have brain diseases too, where are we going to go? And what direction we’re going to point ourselves in.
And when we look at brain health and concussion, there was a study that came out in 2019 on using low level lasers for seizure and for autism. They found that the overactive brain could be slowed down by using a red and violet laser together. And they did EEG so it was amazing. They did the EEG before the laser. They did an EEG during laser treatment and showed that they had synchronized beta waves in the brain. And then 10 minutes later, those waves were still synchronized. So they basically halted the seizures in these patients using a red-violet laser combination. So if we look at the capacity for just red to upregulate, run the metabolic pathways, get the ATP production, get the mitochondria healthy, and then take a violet with it to synchronize brainwaves. The sky’s the limit in terms of what we can do with these devices. And in my opinion, every single chiropractor in America should have one of these. Every single medical doctor should have one of these. Yeah, I can fix a fracture in two weeks with these bad boys. I mean, it is so fun. It’s just so fun. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The question I have for you and I don’t know if you know this or not I have an answer to this. But I’m just curious with all of what we’re seeing with this. Is the NFL taking notice of this? And or even high school or college teams taking notice of this and saying every NFL team should have a laser that they’re using with every single player that’s playing?
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: You know, I don’t think that they are, I wish that they were. I have a couple of colleagues who I know are team doctors for these athletes. We had a patient who had an Avulsed hamstring tendon and pulled the growth plate off with it. So we had sent him to the Packers surgeon, the Green Bay Packers surgeon. And the surgeon said go ahead and play your whole football season on this bum leg because when I have to fix you at the end, I’ve got to tear the muscle completely off the bone anyway. Wow. So he had only evolved the common hamstrings tendon and pulled the growth plate with it.
So he came back to me because he was given the greenlight to play his entire football season. And Mom and Dad said “hey, can we just keep the laser?” I said you better keep the laser and because he was coming in for brain health anyway. Yeah. So we put him in a category one sacred simple technique blocking position to approximate the femur head to the ischial tuberosity. We plopped the laser on it. And I also put the laser in the lumbar spine, not down the leg, right because the cell bodies are where the lasers do the magic. The cell bodies where the mitochondria is the cell body makes ATP the nerves are just branches.
So as clinicians we have to remember the nerves for that area. The terminal end is the phylum terminally in the spinal cord so you’ve actually got a laser about T 12. If you really want to target that hamstring glute area. So you’ve got the effects we plonk one on the T 12 area. One is just going over the lumbar spine and then one was directly on the ischial tuberosity. We did that three times a week. At the end of his football season. He went back to the Green Bay Packers surgeon to see what it looked like they did a second MRI, the growth plate reattached. The hamstrings tendon reattached. And the kid plays college. Yeah, it’s awesome. He plays for Finlandia University now. He’s going into his senior year, but we have those pre and post MRIs. If you’re practicing without a laser, you gotta get in on this stuff. I mean, the stuff that you can fix is the unfixable. And that’s, to me, there’s nothing better. And there’s no risk, there’s no risk, the worst we can do is nothing. So hey, if I can’t fix you fine, then go get the surgery. But let’s try. He’s gonna make you wait anyway, let’s just try.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s exactly what I’ve been saying in terms of from day one, since we’ve gotten these lasers, and that was kind of the cool thing for me. Realizing this, like, when you look at the body of literature, not only does it show how effective they are, but also equally as much, showing just how safe they are. And so for me, it’s like, what a very liberating feeling. That is to know like, anybody who walks through the door, no matter, virtually, I mean, I shouldn’t even say virtually anybody, regardless of the complaint. You can do no wrong here in terms of, you know, using laser. There’s, there’s only upside, there’s zero downside here to it. So. And not only that, but that’s the thing, too, that I have seen firsthand is just the versatility in terms of being able to offer people some sort of answer and or hope for, again, such a wide array of different things that may or may not have fallen within the purview or abilities of a traditional practice, right. In terms of what you can offer. There are probably practices out there who have a wide range of tools, right? We do chiropractic, we do massage, we do rehab, we do Graston and ART and any number of these other modalities that we offer in our practice, but laser, I would I would argue hands down, trumps them all in terms of the versatility of and wide range of things that it can treat, you know, such a indispensable tool really
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: Well with concussion too. You can use it as a diagnostic. We had a lady who fell in the shower. She had a slip and fall, she had brain fog. So her daughter came to see me, and they rented a laser. She brought it to her mom’s house, put the laser on her mom’s head and her mom’s head pain got worse. The mom had already checked out of the ER two days before, but she’s got a concussion and her pain got worse. So they called me and I said to my friend “Kim, I said okay, you need to go back to the ER, she has a brain bleed. Laser doesn’t make people worse. Go back to the ER, I think she has a brain bleed.” I’ve never met this lady. But yes, she had a brain bleed, and she would have died if she had not rented that laser. Wow. But that’s the cool part about this. That’s what I love the most. Is that okay? She had a concussion. Concussion patients don’t get worse. They get better. Why did she not get better, get back to the ER, and lo and behold, that’s why so again, as a diagnostic tool, that’s what I love about what you said, Chad, these can’t harm you. So if a patient gets worse, there’s something else going on. Yeah.
Dr. Andrew Wells: And good on you Dr. Hieshetter for I think a lot of doctors are using lasers, therapeutically for injuries once they’ve happened. And you mentioned that you’re also using them prophylactically to help in the inevitable head injury that most high school and college athletes are just going to go through if they’re in some sort of contact sport. But also I think the genius in what you’re doing is you’re using, you’re creating an affordable package for athletes to come in. And I would imagine there’s some performance enhancement in that as well. Because in Chad, Chad brought up the great question of like, well, why are we in like all of these professional sports teams, because it just makes too much sense. It’s easy to do, you could put it in the hands of any, like any athletic trainer. But I think the window into the team’s sports teams, I just thought of this is not from an injury, post injury standpoint is from a performance standpoint. And that’s one of the really cool things about lasers is there’s a huge component aspect to it. I think there is some debate on whether lasers should even be used in sports because it gives you somewhat of a competitive edge on because of the benefits of lasers but really like what you’re doing whether that was a planned business strategy or not is get in front of athletes before they actually have the injury and you may not have actually been able to help that that football player with the growth plate issue had you not been in the position to have helped him before that?
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: Certainly, certainly. And to that point to the number of concussion patients from that town that we worked with and worked on. That same football player, his younger brother, had gotten a bad concussion; his head was rotated to the left and someone fell on it. And his left eye, yeah, his left eye would not track. It was so creepy and he had been to the eye doctor and the eye doctors like yeah, you your brain damaged. Good luck with that. So mom and dad had brought him to me. The optic nerve was a little bit implicated as pupils wouldn’t dilate nicely, but cranial nerves three, four, and six, they’re all found in the brainstem. So we laser through the open mouth. And then of course, we did the whole head concussion protocol with the diode on the forehead, top of the head back and ahead for about 10 minutes. And then I also lasered through the temple area to try to target the optic nerve. And within four treatments, he was perfectly fine again.
Dr. Andrew Wells: But that gives us like miracle stories that Edie chiropractor would like. I just want one of those in my entire career and you’re just rattling off these crazy stories. That’s amazing. Well, and for next week.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I was just gonna say I you know when you say these, and I want to highlight this because I’m not I’m guessing you’re not saying it in like this nonchalant arrogant way. You’re saying it in this nonchalant way. Because you have seen it so many times that you just know the result. You know what the result is? It just so matter of fact is the way you stay at it, you know, here, here, a kid whose eye is not tracking here, like, yeah, and then in for treatment, it was all resolved. I’m like, holy cow, that’s incredible, you know, but again, that’s the thing is when you start to see it, you start to recognize the pattern that, you know, yeah, we can fix this, you know, you got a really, really powerful tool that can do a lot of really incredible things.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: I appreciate that, you know, it is a very powerful tool. And when I can’t fix somebody, I don’t over treat either. You’re out in two weeks, you know, and it’s, it’s, I do realize now I’m just like, oh, yeah, it’s nonchalant. Just, we’re going to put a laser on that nerve and that nerve and see what your body’s going to do with it. And I have yet to, to have an instance where we don’t make some sort of lasting change.
I’ve got my work cut out for me next week, I have a person traveling a couple hours to get here because she was walking her dog. And the dog ran; they’re on the beach, and she had the dog leash, pulled something that paralyzed half of her diaphragm. So she’s going to come see me next week. It sounds more like phrenic nerve than anything else. And I’ll let you guys know how that one goes. But these brain injuries, the brain wants to heal. The brain wants to function. I’ve got an Alzheimer’s patient right now who we’ve been working with both gut and brain because she had had so many massive symptoms. And we know that for every nerve that goes from the brain to the gut nine go back up. And that the guts’ nervous system, the enteric nervous system is completely separate from the brain, but it controls so much of the neurotransmitter distribution, that in a lot of these concussion athletes, we don’t just do the brain will do the gut as well and will do the vagus nerve. And it’s because of that gut brain axis that we see tremendous results. I have an entire gut reset program that we do with patients. We run some tests to find out who’s living in the gut. Are they friend or foe? Are they driving any chronic diseases like autoimmunity? Are these microbes allowing you to produce the right neurotransmitters? Are they messing with your hormone balance? You know what, what’s really happening physiologically ties in a lot to the gut. And if we can’t get a concussion patient better, it’s because we missed something in the gut. So I tend to just do it all at once. Now, I’ve evolved in my practice that way. Just because it’s so clinically important. I don’t want to miss anything.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. I think Dr. Trevor Berry said it eloquently. He said you don’t have a neurology program if you don’t have a functional medicine program. And he was saying the same things. If you’re not looking at the gut, if you’re not looking at immunology, you can be missing some really key pieces that affect the brain and affect neurology. And that’s, I think that’s important for doctors to recognize, too, is that lasers aren’t always the fix all cure all for everything. The brain doesn’t live in a vacuum in your skull and is not affected by other things. And that’s the other cool thing about lasers that you’re using, obviously, lab testing, and you’re using certain supplements, I imagine and from a nutrition standpoint, to fix a lot of those gut issues to repair brain gut access. But also, you can use lasers for gut issues as well. So that’s a whole other spin off of helping the brain via the gut.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: Yeah, and a great read on that particular topic is by Dr. Tom Verni. The Er and why he’s an MD. His book is called the Embodied Mind. And he’s got a very large portion of it, that ties in gut health. But what I found really thrilling about his book, and I just got back from teaching in Wisconsin. I dedicated a lot of my lecture to the gut brain axis. And what Verni writes about are these studies where the bad microbes that we don’t want in our gut, you can knock them out with pulsed violet laser, the good microbes that are supposed to live there, love pulsed red lasers. And this guy’s a medical doctor, right? So I’m reading this and I’m sharing it with his class. Look, if you’re doing brain health, if you’re doing concussion, if you’re doing gut, you’ve got to have a red-violet laser, because now we’ve just opened the floodgate on so many more ways to help your patient, it thrills me. So this is I guess I’m kind of geeking out now I was nonchalant before but now knowing that somehow in nature’s perfect design, violet and ultraviolet kill the bad guys. And red is where the good guys shine. The low level laser therapy that Erchonia keeps cranking out just continues to thrill me and makes me want to keep going and practice and up my game and learn more and keep chasing all this information that’s just pouring out of pubmed.com Right now, because people are finally getting it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Ya know that you know the thing I keep thinking and all of this that has been so cool for Andrew and I is like we get to glean all of this collective wisdom from these doctors. And I think that’s, we again, we have Erchonia to thank for that because Erchonia has done such an incredible job of curating such a phenomenal panel, if you will, will call you a panel of experts, you know, docs who just really, and so for me what I feel like and I’m saying this selfishly, I feel like we kind of have an accelerated, you know, path of learning through through this podcast, because we’ve been able to kind of get the Cliff’s Notes version, so to speak of each of these clinicians experiences here, we’re hearing just a snippet of your experiences, and yet, you’re just sharing so many cool insights from not only the research, but also more importantly, I think your own personal hands on clinical experience that you’ve had. And so it’s great to hear these stories, and I think highly beneficial for you know, those listening doctors and patients alike. And so all the more reason to tune in and listen to these episodes, not for my sake or Andrew’s sake, because we’re, we’re just facilitating the conversation is all we’re doing. And so it’s really cool to be able to hear firsthand from you, and from so many other incredible people. So yeah, it is exciting. And I feel the same way when you say that, like, it’s kind of cool to geek out and dive down some of these different holes in terms of the Science in the specifics. And what’s really cool is that we live in a day and age now where we can start to really dissect and dive deep into what’s mechanical, from a mechanistic standpoint, what’s actually happening. And now we’re at a point where we have the means to, you know, really figure those things out and not just be like, “Hey, this is this cool phenomenon. When we do this thing. It appears that this is happening.” But really we can in a very sophisticated way explain in detail what’s actually happening. So that’s a really, really cool thing, I think.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: Yeah, and I appreciate what you guys are doing too because as I said in the beginning, when I teach I come from a comprehensive standpoint, I want everybody every doctor out there to have a laser and know what to do with it. Because you’re gonna save somebody some major hurt and major heartache and major suffering if you know how to properly use these and even my daughters. They’re, they’re 12 and nine, but they know how to grab the laser program and pop it on there. I mean, we go to the beach, we bring a laser to show why their friend got a jellyfish sting. We pull the kid out of the ocean, zap it with a laser and 10 minutes later, the kids are fine and running around playing again. But we’ve put lasers on just about everything in our house. We’ve got a German shepherd with Lyme disease. I’ve got a husband with multiple head injuries and a family history of MS. So every day, my poor husband, I’m like, “Hey, just take your supplements?” He says “No, I just got up!”
Dr. Chad Woolner: So if for no other reason, you go to the beach with Dr. Kristen. So that if there’s a jellyfish thing you can avoid getting urinated on and instead have a laser I would I would much prefer a laser. Because isn’t that the standard care treatment? Is you pee on the leg or pee on the arm or whatever it’s not. That’s what I’ve heard anyways, right? You’re supposed to urine.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: The NH four in the human urine is like the anti venom, apparently, but we’ve never had to do that.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, you could just you’re you’re more dignified and sophisticated than all those other savages. No peeing on jellyfish stings.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So a couple questions for you, Dr. Hieshetter we get we’re finding that we’re getting listeners on the podcast that are providers, and we get listeners who are just interested in using lasers for different issues. Because of the title of this podcast, I imagine we’re gonna get patients who are like, “Wow, I really need this!” Or they know somebody who’s had a concussion. How do they find you? Or if they live somewhere that’s not close to you? How would they get access to Erchnoia lasers?
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: Oh my goodness to gain access to Erchonia laser, if you just call the company, I don’t know their number off the top of my head because I just tell Siri to call Joe or David or any of the guys. But go on the erchonia.com website. There you could find a list of providers in your area who have the lasers.
You can also call the company directly. They can help you purchase a laser, they can help you find a provider.
If there are patients laypeople, or doctors today who are interested in, for instance, I’ve got the University of Michigan neuro sport protocol as we had mentioned earlier, a lot of places don’t restrict activity or they don’t know when to turn people loose again, after they’ve had a chronic repetitive impact situation or one huge blow that knocks them out of the game. I’ve got all of that information available. If you email, ihsflorencesc@gmail.com. And just request the concussion stuff. My office manager can send it out. But it’s beautifully depicted. I mean, it talks about, “Can you ride a bike? Can you run? How’s your agility? Are you in the red mentally or physically? Can we clear your BI doctor went to restriction level?” And the U of M protocol has a pyramid that you go through, an algorithm or flowchart if you will. And it’s nice as clinicians to give it to your patient because they say, “Well, Billy is fine. He can go back and play football.” And you can say No, he can’t because he can’t stand with his feet together and close his eyes without tipping over. He’s not ready yet.
And so now I work with mixed martial arts, like Brazilian jiu jitsu fighters and these guys, they look fine. They’re big and strong, but they can’t stand on a vibe without getting motion sickness. And that’s just standing still. So we know that they’ve got chronic traumatic encephalopathy. And because they can’t stand on the vibe plate without wanting to puke, even though they’re big and strong and look good and aren’t bleeding anywhere. They’re not okay. They’re not okay, neurologically. So we’re working on these guys a few times a week, using low level laser on the brain while they’re on the vibe plate to try to upregulate those places that have been damaged from concussion, and it’s working. But these guys have to commit to it. And we have to keep going until they’re all better, or they are going to end up incurring really nasty brain disease down the road.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s incredible, incredible work that you’re doing. Yeah, Dr. Kristen, thank you seriously, so much for taking time out of your schedule to be here with us. You’ve shared some really, really valuable insights. And it’s really fascinating. I’ve really enjoyed this interview, really enjoyed hearing what you’re, what you’re sharing, it shines through just how passionate you are about, first and foremost helping patients, but also utilizing these tools in just a variety of different ways. And obviously, particularly on this episode talking a lot about concussions. So it’s great to hear the great work that you’re doing there for patients and how you’re helping so many different people. Was there anything else you wanted to add? Dr. Wells?
Dr. Andrew Wells: No, just other than, yeah, thank you for sharing what you’re passionate about. Thank you for being one of those people that we need in the health care system, because there are people like you who are few and far between. And my hope is that other health care providers can listen to this podcast and learn from what you’re doing and hopefully follow in your footsteps and help people with issues that nobody else is helping with.
Dr. Kristin Hieshetter: So thank you very much. That’s yeah, my hat’s off to you so much, guys. Appreciate your time today, too. I know that you’re busy doctors as well. So we in the chiropractic community are very blessed to have this type of venue and format for sharing all the good that we do. Thank you.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, you bet. Thank you so much. Docs, and patients alike hope this has been a valuable episode. We’ve really enjoyed this. Share this with others, we will make sure that we put all the resources that Dr. Kristen talked about here in the show notes so you guys can access that. And so we appreciate her being willing to share those resources as well. And we will talk to you guys in the next episode. Have a good one.
Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchnoia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.
On today’s episode, we sit down with Dr. Kirk Gair to discuss some of the most common misconceptions about the laser industry. Not all lasers and light therapies are what they seem and Dr. Gair unpacks some of the alarming and misleading claims regarding various products on the market…. Buyer beware!
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Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells and this is Episode 23 of The Laser Light Show and on today’s episode we’re going to be talking about laser myths and misconceptions with Dr. Kirk Gair. So let’s get started.
Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
All right, everybody. Welcome to the show. And Dr. Kirk Gair, welcome to the show, man. Glad to have you here.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Thank you guys. I’m glad to be here as well. Thanks for having me as your guests, it’s some important information for doctors to get.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, so let’s get right to it. The big problem we have with Erchonia is the lasers just aren’t powerful enough. Right?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Right. Right, right. You know, it’s amazing how we hear this so often and, and yet, it’s so easy to dispel that type of myth that’s out there. But people can, it’s kind of like all the fake news and information in the last couple of years too, where you can just be perplexed looking at what people believe that’s like, this is so easy to show you that that’s not the truth. But yet people are believing the inaccuracies. And if you look at the research on that, going back to the 1960s, when laser really got started, and you got to figure by 1974, the Russians already had laser as part of their state sponsored standard health care. And they were doing a lot of research on lasers. And they clearly showed that you have this, what’s called a biphasic dose response called the orange Schultz law, and this is to where when you do higher dosages, you don’t get a better result. And they found that the most effective dosages, if you look at the paper called low level laser therapy in Russia published in 2017, they talked about that the most effective wavelength they found was 635 nanometers. And they found that a lower energy was more effective. And when you bump up the energy, and you can find you go into PubMed, you can just look at tons of research. And you’ll see this, that as you increase the dose, you get a different response, you can go from having a positive response to having a very negative one or a completely opposite effect.
And it’s like going out in sunlight, you know. If you go out and sunlight at the right time of day to get the right kind of UV rays, for say, 10 or 15 minutes, you can get all the beneficial effects of sunlight, you can get, you know, the melatonin production, you can get all kinds of things like vitamin D, etc. But let’s say you stay up and say, “hey, I want to amp up the dosage of this. And let me let me like, get a reflective aluminum surface here. And let me moist up in baby oil. And let me stay out here to get a higher dosage.” You don’t get a better result. And you can actually get DNA damage.
And that’s what you see in the research is that over and over again, when you go beyond certain dosages, and it’s usually shown that the therapeutic window is around two joules, up to maybe 10 joules, when you start going over that to 20 joules or 50 joules, you can get very damaging effects on it and it can go very rapid, and once you go over these thresholds there. So that’s easy to dispel. But doctors keep believing this, more power, kind of like remember the 1990s show Home Improvement? With Tim “The Toolman” Taylor? Anytime Al would bring out, you know, some equipment, Tim would look at it and say, “Hey Al, you know, this baby needs, it needs more power.” And he grabbed the power up and what happened? He ended up blowing something up. Now we’ll have to fix it. Yeah, and Al would come in and say “no, no, no, Tim, you don’t need more power. You need the right power.” And that’s a key thing for doctors to understand is they don’t treat laser like you’re Tim “The Toolman” Taylor, be more like Al and be sensible and look at the research and use the right amount of power.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, as you’re, as you’re saying this about the sunlight, I’m totally envisioning these people that we’ve all seen. They’re like, you know, in their 40s and yet their skin looks like it’s their 80s, you know, and they’re just like walking around these these leather bags, you know? No amount, no amount of logic that you’re going to tell them is going to change their mind. And I think that’s…the equivalent would be the same thing. You know that it’s funny as you say that because I used to…I really did, like truly, I used to think that same thing. There’s something inherent that we gravitate towards in terms of that, that feeling of heat, you know. We’ve used in our clinic, a class four laser, and we really liked it. It’s it’s great, you know, I like the fact that you’re that you feel the heat and you can feel a kind of deep penetration of that heat. And all the while I’m thinking, again, prior to my understanding the state of the research, all the while I’m thinking this is really doing something more than it’s actually doing. And again, not that it’s not good and not doing something it clearly not has a physiological effect.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, I think that’s a key thing you pointed out there too, is that when you talk about you feel that heat and that, you know, that especially those infrared higher powered lasers, that’s what their effect is, is it’s a thermal impact, right. And that’s what they’re FDA cleared for this is what doctors don’t understand is they think, “Oh, well, this is, I can do all the same things with this other high powered laser, and I can do in a shorter period of time.” It’s like, No, you can’t, that’s not what the research shows. And your FDA clearance shows that look, and I encourage doctors to do this, look at what your high powered laser is cleared for. It is for topical heating to temporarily reduce pain. You don’t get the same kind of enzymatic and photochemical changes with those other wavelengths and with those higher powers that you do with the lower powers.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So a question for you Dr. Gair. I think a lot of the misinformation that doctors are getting about lasers and their effects come from other device manufacturers. And a doctor will go to like a seminar, they go to a conference and they meet people selling these other devices. And the reality is there’s other low level lasers on the market besides Erchonia. But, I’ve seen and maybe you’ve seen as well, that other manufacturers and reps are claiming, like, “oh, like, you don’t need to spend the money on Erchonia Laser, just get ours. And by the way, ours is more powerful.” And essentially, which means it’s better. So is it like, without naming names? Is that Is that really where this is coming from? And if so, why? Why do you think that the other manufacturers are doing that?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, that’s definitely where it’s coming from. And there’s one particular company that’s doing this quite a bit. It’s a company that’s very popular in the neuro world. And the irony is these companies, even these class four ones too, is they’ll knock Erchonia, and then on their own web pages go on there and look at what research they cite. They actually cite Erchonia research and just support their device that’s completely different.
And that’s the that’s the irony that’s on there. And even when you look at the research papers they cite, they’re all almost exclusively low level laser research papers, that even in those papers will say that if you go beyond this certain power and whatnot, you’re going to get an opposite, opposite effect. And that’s where it’s really being driven.
Some of it is because some of the reps are ignorant. And they’re just repeating what they’ve been told to repeat, because it’s a great sales point. It reminds me of, do you guys watch Mad Men? So it’s when, when when Don Draper is sitting there, and he’s trying to figure out, you know, the pitch line for the cigarettes. And he just comes out with “oh, it’s toasted.” And they’re like, “Yeah, but you know, these other cigarettes are toasted too.” He’s like, “Yeah, but it doesn’t matter. It’s the pitch, and people are gonna, like, buy into the pitch.” And that’s what it comes down to is what is the pitch that sells things. And that’s what people hear.
And like here in America, especially, we always think bigger is better, more power is better, regardless of the research. So when they see this, like this, take this particular laser that’s popular with the neuro community here’s, not naming names so much, but they will they do all kinds of crazy stuff. Like they’ll claim that they’re the most powerful laser in the class three, or you know, low power category. But yet, by claiming most power, the power that they list actually makes them class four. So they’re going back and forth on things. And then they talk about how a class four doesn’t work as well, because it’s got the high power. So that’s why we use low power, and they’re all over the place. And they talked about being less expensive. Well, one of the reasons why they’re less expensive, is their laser is not collimated. And you can see this in the pictures that the doctors who are using it online will show they’ll show using it on the head, which is not FDA cleared, or they’re only FDA clearance is as the thermal laser. So it shouldn’t be used on the head, but they’re using it on the head, you see it away from it, and you don’t see clear lines of the laser because it’s non-collimated, you see a big fuzzy spot.
So it’s basically turning it into an LED at that distance. And so they’ll use our research to try to claim that you know that theirs is better because it’s more power. And their usual claim is they’ll say, “By being more powerful, we can do that treatment in a fraction of the time.”
So let’s take like the FX for low back pain. It takes 20 minutes for us to do the chronic low back pain treatment. That’s what we showed with the double blind placebo controlled study where eight sessions over 20 minutes caused an initial pain reduction of 58% at the end of the two months. And then at the 12 month follow up there was an additional 17% reduction in pain for a total of 75%. But they found that and studies show that when you do low power over longer time, you have a different and a better effect than high power in a short time.
But these companies, they pitch their lasers like it’s a microwave oven. So the analogy I like to use when I’m teaching doctors this, let’s say, we’re going to go have a barbecue, and I bring out a slow cooker, and I’m gonna cook these ribs. I’m gonna put this certain amount of energy into the ribs for, say, three hours at a certain lower energy. And then somebody else comes in, says, “Hey, I’ve got this microwave, I can put the same amount of energy into those ribs, and I can do it in 30 minutes.” Are those ribs, is the texture gonna be the same? And it’s gonna be completely different, because that high energy in a short period of time changes what’s going on in the molecular structure. And this is shown time and time again in research, you look in the book by Tuner and Hode, and that talks about it. You look at the study, biphasic dose responsive, low level light and laser therapy by Hamlin. It talks about these things, it talks about how longer time at lower power has a better effect than higher power and short time. So there’s not really any research to support these claims, but they’re making the claims anyway. You know, and they get away with it, because the FDA is not really cracking down on them very much, and it’s a great sales point for them.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, as I hear that, I’ve been very sensitive of the fact that our listenership on the podcast has been, you know, doctors, as we kind of figured it would be, but also some somewhat surprisingly, patients as well. And so, I’m thinking from this perspective, both doctor and patient that, you know, for those who maybe might have a concern, potentially have like a higher investment cost with Erchonia. I think both doctor and patient can appreciate the the security, if you will, I don’t know if that’s the right word, or the peace of mind in knowing that what you’re investing in isn’t just the device itself, but you’re also investing in the research that has gone into that to ensure that A, it’s safe, and B, it’s effective.
There’s, I’m telling you man, that has been a really cool thing for me. In fact, we just had a new patient come through the door, who had been talking to a podiatrist about her plantar fasciitis. And the podiatrist was like, “Well, if this splint thing that we’ve prescribed for you doesn’t work, then it’s going to be surgery.” It was like straight to zero to, like, Mach 10, in terms of his approach. And it was, it was so cool to be able to tell her look, we have the research to back it up. And so often in the realm of Physical Medicine, and I appreciate it in certain realms, we give these approximations, and I get it, but it was cool to be able to say we should see resolution in six to eight treatments. That’s the timeframe that we’re gonna be banking on, because that’s what the research shows. And so it’s powerful.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, it’s so true. And that’s what I tell when I do my travel across the US and train with other the doctors, I tell them, “hey, don’t even listen to me, don’t believe me. Fact, check me, but do it in the legit way, not the Facebook way.” Really look into things, read the research. And you’ll you’ll see these research papers that Erchonia has to get the 20 different FDA clearances, I say look at the other companies and see if they have any research on their product. Almost none of them do. There’s a few that have some research on their product. Most of them don’t. Most of them cite our research or the low level research on there. But like you said, here we can clearly say these are expectations if we go back to the brain ones too. So let’s use that as an example with this other company that’s coming out and saying, “Hey, we can put more power into these kids’ brains. And we can make a big difference.”
And we’re getting reports of kids having seizures, because they’re putting in one watt, which is 1000 milliwatts into these kids, and sending them home telling the parents to do “Hey, do an hour on your kid with this laser.” And this is…that’s a huge, huge dosage that’s actually contraindicated, especially when you have an infrared laser because you have a thermal impact. So now you’re actually putting an infrared thermal laser on the brain at high power, you’re heating up the tissues. There was one that Dr. Brock shared, where he knows of a guy who had this laser used on him and he had a psychotic break and had to be institutionalized. Because the body is not designed to receive that much power. It makes as much sense as saying, “hey, you know what, if I take you know, this much Tylenol in a day, it’s beneficial. But let me take 10 times the recommended dose instead of going up to 2500 milligrams maximum, through that 25,000.” What’s going to happen you’re gonna get liver failure. And we see this with everything with all kinds of medications that you have a therapeutic window and when you go beyond it, it doesn’t work well, but for some reason, trying to get this through some doctors minds is making me think of like that scene from back the future where where the guy’s grabbing his head and going, “Hello? McFly? McFlye?” trying to wake them up. And it’s like, I want to take some these doctors. No, we read McFly. We read the research here because we’ve got clearly showing the dosages that work, let’s say for autistic kids as we submitted that paper to the FDA, and you know, are kind of like Steve Shanks, says you they don’t just pick these values out of the air that he tried higher power things and thought it didn’t work as well. And they’ve tried to teach particular times and they found what are the sweet spots that are in there. So there’s a ton of research, like you said, that gives peace of mind to the individual who’s buying this laser that is beneficial, that is therapeutic, it’s going to do what it says to do. And and we have these parameters where it can be effective.
Dr. Andrew Wells: This reminds me of a thought when I was in…I was studying for national boards. This was probably like 14 years ago. And I was sitting in on a board review class with Dr. Danoffrio, he’d just mentioned the kind of like in passing us “Oh, yeah. And by the way, I use lasers on on brains.” I remember thinking like, “wow, that sounds like really dangerous. Like, why would you have a laser on somebody’s brain?” Because I’m thinking there’s all kinds of different wavelengths that can go through someone’s brain, some are healthy, some are really dangerous. And I was even thinking, “Well, I would never put a laser on my brain, because who knows what kind of effect that would have like 10 or 15, 20 years down the road?” Or even immediately, like you mentioned, you have these people who have these really immediate adverse reactions.
So I remember like, just banking that and I heard it, and I kind of dismissed it. And then I also, you know, I also kind of categorized lasers as just just for musculoskeletal pain . And because of the research, we’re seeing now that there’s there’s a huge scope, very wide scope of applications for lasers. And then, so doctors are now realizing this. And they’re starting to feel comfortable lasering brains.
Not, you know, but just based on misinformation from brands and companies. You can very easily do harm, because we’re talking about right brain tissue, it’s super sensitive to heat changes, it’s very sensitive to a lot of different things. And so, I think these well intentioned doctors, and also patients are looking for solutions and answers unwittingly subject themselves to damage. And that’s like the worst outcome for everybody, not only for the patient, the doctor, it’s a massive liability, but it’s also black eye to the industry, where people are already I would say, you know, somewhat skeptical about things like light therapy, We’re used to biochemical approaches where, here’s your symptom, here’s the pill, we’re gonna make a biochemical change in the body, and you’re gonna get some some kind of symptom relief, some kind of hearing as a result of that.
And when we’re talking about laser therapy, we have, I think, a really unique opportunity now, especially backed by the research and the hard work that Erchonia has done to really put their best foot forward and say, “Hey, this is not only effective, but it’s safe.” And then spoil it by just giving misinformation and and right kind of the shell game of like, “Hey, look over here, look over here, we’re doing the same thing.” But it’s actually not the same thing. And I think it’s, that’s why we’re doing this episode right now for not only for doctors, but also for patients to know that like, if you’re gonna laser somebody’s brain, or any part of their body, no know what it actually is. That’s just based on marketing and sales hype.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, that’s so true. And you brought up a good point there, when you talk about we’re used to like photochemical, photochemistry, or we’re used to biochemistry kind of reactions. That brings up a good segue into, you know, the difference in these wavelengths, too, is that you get a different reaction with say, visible light, versus say infrared and far infrared because, and this is basic physics too so again, please, I encourage people to fact check me go and look at the articles on the physics of light. And so if we look at infrared, that’s going to have more of a mechanical or a photo thermal effect in the body. That’s why like when you use that, that class four laser on the arthritic knee, it feels good, because you feel the heat that’s going on, there’s a photo thermal kind of effect on it. We go on the visible spectrum, we’re not really we’re not getting that thermal impact. We’re getting photochemical and enzymatic, and we’re getting signaling cascades. And there’s a fascinating paper that Steve Shanks, just showed me recently talking about the effects of, say, violet wavelengths of lasers. And this is something that definitely patients don’t know, most doctors don’t know, I didn’t even really understand this very well until doing deep discussions with Steve.
When we look at, say, like a violet wavelength laser that we’re using on the body, the energy in every individual photon is the highest energy of any type of wavelength we can use on our body. And this has nothing to do with the wattage, what it has zero impact on it. It is the inherent energy of it. And this energy is at like 3.06 electron volts per individual photon. Then we go down to like, say a visible red one that’s clicking at about 1.9 electron volts. So it’s still energetic, but it’s less. When you go down to infrared instead of 1.49 electron volts, so much lower. Now, the reason that’s important is that it takes at least that 1.9 electron volts to cause an electron in the cell, when laser hits it, to jump that electron into a higher energetic state. If you use an infrared laser, it doesn’t have the energy to trigger this electron to jump into a higher state.
So why is that important? Why do we care about that? Well, some cool things happen. There’s a whole cascade that happens. So let’s say you get the violet laser, and you get it on the cell, the electrons going to jump into a higher energetic state, and then when it falls back down, and especially sometimes it’ll stay there a little longer. As it falls down, it can trigger this release of other fluorescent lights, as the cell… as the as electron’s flowing back down. So if you have a violet laser, it’ll jump that electron to a higher state, it’ll be there for a little bit as it falls back down, you’re gonna get this phosphorescence to where it’ll release a green photon.
And then you get all these enzymatic cascades and suddenly cascades that only occur with that wavelength. Because specific wavelengths can trigger specific changes. And so there’s things you can do with the violet that you can’t with an infrared. Things with the green that you can’t with a red or an infrared. So the violet will get its reactions at that wavelength. And then it’ll trigger the release of this green one that gets specific reactions. And then that electron is gonna fall back down and release a red fluorescent photon that’s going to trigger red types reactions. And so it takes just one photon to trigger cascades like a domino effect. And we’re talking about millions of reactions that occur with a single photon. So this is why it’s there’s a huge difference between visible and infrared. So when an infrared company tries to quote our research and say they can do the same thing, it works differently. It works photo thermal, not photochemical.
Dr. Andrew Wells: You know what I’m seeing as well, and I want to get your take on this, Dr. Gair, is we’re talking about lasers and other manufacturers that make lasers, what what is what’s your take on LED lights? because I often find even probably even more so than Erchonia being compared to other lasers, it’s actually Erchonia being compared to two LED products, and those are a lot more prolific just because they’re, like, extremely cheap to buy for doctors and patients. But yeah, what are your thoughts on that?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Well, and especially now, like, if you’re on social media, you’re gonna get bombarded by LED products from China that make outrageous claims that are not supported by anything FDA backed on there at all. I think the easiest way to kind of, in a sense, debunk that one is let’s look at the studies that Erchonia did to get FDA clearances. They always use the double blind and quadruple blind placebo controlled studies.
And guess what the placebo is. It’s an LED device that’s actually of the same wavelength. And it’s actually turned on, it’s doing the same amount of dosage, the same amount of everything. So they’re not even like trying to say, Oh, it’s just a sham treatment, which turned off, they’re actually using an LED and comparing it.
So let’s go back to the autism study. So in the autism study, they took two groups of kids and one group got the Erchonia lasers, the other group got an LED of the same amount of dosage and everything, same wavelength, there was no impact at all, no change with the LED on there. They then took the kids who are in that LED control group and crossed them over six months later, and they received laser. And you saw that those kids got the same kind of benefits from the laser. So it’s nothing unique to the kids, just the LED didn’t really work very well on it.
When we look at the Zerona for fat loss, there’s a lot of LED companies out there that claim that they can that their LED device is just as good as Zerona, but it’s a fraction of the cost. Many of them actually will quote the Zerona research ironically, on their page. One even used our study showing the effects of the Zerona laser on fat cells were triggers that transitory poor, and causes the emulsification of the fat, which we had to give them a cease and desist letter on that one to stop using that and misrepresenting it.
Well, in that study, to get FDA clearance, guess what the placebo device was? It was an LED. And the LED showed about 10% as effective as the as the true laser. So we’ve got that one. Awesome. Let’s go to chronic low back pain or as you mentioned earlier, plantar fasciitis. Both of those ones, the placebo was an LED device. And you see some benefits while the LED is being used. But where the big difference comes is that the LED doesn’t show long term benefits. So both with the plantar fascia, fasciitis study and a low back study, we showed that even when the laser was stopped, the patient continue to get better towards creating long term changes where it’s actually getting tissue to heal, whereas the LED didn’t.
So we have those studies that help to really support that an LED may have some impacts, but it’s nowhere near maybe about 10% as effective as a laser. So I think for a doctor using it in a clinic, would you want to get something that’s 10% as effective? Or do you want something that’s more effective in your office? I know for me, I want to blow people’s minds when they come in. Now when we go into one of the big guys who’s who’s talking about LED being equal to lasers is Michael Hanlon. And Michael Hanlon started off as a researcher at Harvard. And now he basically is as on the advisory board for practically every LED company around the world. So a lot of this information came from a paper he published with, Hiscanin (sp?) was his co-author. And it said LEDs being equivalent to lasers basically. And so I was online and this Hiscanin, he has a social media page for LED therapy. And he shared the Erchonia laser study on autism, “what a great day for, for lasers and led this is showing the impact of LEDs on the brain.”
And he’s talking about how great of a study it was that Erchonia did. And so I go on there, “Hey, man, thanks for sharing, but I gotta let you know, LEDs were the placebo and they were showing they have no impact.” And so we got into this discussion that I can send you guys to the little picture so you can see about our discussion. He immediately goes from supporting the research to knocking it. “Oh, well, you know, you must have used LEDs that were different powers, different, you know, different, you know different dosages etc.” I said, “no, no, it was identical. And then those kids actually got laser later they had a change.”
And he said, “Well, you know, yeah, but that’s just this is just one study. But, Hamlin and I did this study where we had 359 articles that show that LED was just as effective as lasikplus.” Well, what he didn’t know is that I had read all 359 of his studies, I actually went to his paper, because I looked and said, “Hey, I’m objective. Let me read this and see Is it true or is it not?” And I looked at his 359 research papers. Well on there one was a study on a bumblebee on using LED on a bumblebee literally on a single bumblebee. A lot of them were low, low level kinds of studies on just, like a doctor’s case study that they wrote this thing up and sent it in. So very low quality, not placebo controlled. Out of the 359 studies, they only had three studies that directly compare to LED and a laser, none of the other studies directly compared it, because to say that it’s equal, you need to put them on an equal playing field. It’s kind of like saying, “who was the best boxer of all time, like if Mike Tyson fought Muhammad Ali in his prime who’s going to win or if it’s the Dodgers are today versus you know, the Dodgers of 50 years ago, who would win?” The only way you can compare that is a direct comparison, you need like a hot tub time machine, to put them back together and at the same time and go head to head. And I told him, “You didn’t have head to head studies, you got three studies. Two are on two hypersensitivity and one was on post surgical cardiac pain.” So when I called him out on that, then he actually admitted, yeah, you’re right. There’s more research on lasers being more effective than LEDs right now. But then he spun into, “but I think in the future it’s going to be different.” But he just admitted that he didn’t have the research to prove his claims. Now when they did that study, Hamlin failed to mention all of his conflicts of interest. So Steve Shanks, Erchonia’s owner and president and chief researcher caught that. And he reported it to the journal and they had to issue a correction that he failed to list like, there’s like 30 different conflicts of interest he had. So again, that’s where you have money influencing, influencing things, because you’re selling a product on there.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So science is, what is the saying? The sciences is what?
Dr. Kirk Gair: The Science is settled?
Dr. Andrew Wells: Science is settled. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The question that keeps coming to my mind, and I want this to be a sincere question, not a loaded question. Because I want to…I’m genuinely curious about this. Why do you think it is that Erchonia seems to be, and correct me if I’m wrong, but it sure seems to me they’re the only one that is sincerely engaging in research. I know that there’s a massive time component and money component that goes into it. I know that Erchonia spends a significant…why do you think it is that so few, if not no one else in the laser space is engaging in the research?
Because I know the easy answer for us to say,” Oh, they’re just lazy, and they just want to make money.” Maybe that might be it. But the thing for me is, and not not to say that, “here we go on the Laser Light Show chat gonna start a, a rivaling company with Erchonia.” But the thing is, I think that there would be an opportunity for a laser company who was sincere enough to say, you know, what, there’s, there’s a huge opportunity. There’s only one laser company right now that’s actually sincerely engaging in real legitimate research. There’s a huge opportunity for us to also do the same and not just piggyback off of there. Do you think it’s that laser companies just think too little too late? There’s no way we can catch up to Erchonia? Or what other factors do you think are there as to why so few are actually engaging?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, I’ve thought about that. I’ve got I’ve got a couple of events is tha, first off, why does Erchonia do so much research? I think one of the things is we’ve got the Tom Brady of lasers with Erchonia. Steve Shanks. I mean, if you sit down, Steve Shanks, and I sat down at the annual business meeting last year, and for four hours, just talk laser. And I felt like I was just like, talking with Stephen Hawking, you know, because he knows lasers so well. So when you have someone like that directing the research, that’s really unique. And he just he loves the research.
So as he told me, he said, “Look,” he said, “if a different wavelength or different powers is better, we’d use it. We’re not married to a specific wavelength. All we care about is research.” And I think that’s the unique thing is he comes in with an open mind of like, let’s just do what shows what the research shows works. Whereas a lot of other companies come and say, “we’re making this product like this. So let’s make sure that everything fits to support what we’re doing,” instead of saying, we make the product that fits with research, right? So Steve started with the research of what was what was the research showing, and then built it up from there and then continues to research it. That’s why he thinks changing. Like, if it was 20-18 years ago, when I start with Erchonia, we look at the treatment times that were recommended. They were recommending 30 and 60 second treatment times.
Well, as time goes on, we know that’s not the most effective thing. So we look at them a lot longer. So that’s that’s the aspect of where Erchonia is coming from. Now, let’s talk about the other companies. I can tell you, particularly about this one company that I’ve been mentioning without saying it name like Lord Voldemort. I’m not saying the name of it, but it’s popular in the, in the neuro community. My associate doctor used to be their second in command and their main researcher. So after he left that company, he told me, he said, “Dude,” he said, “Here’s what our research was.” He said, the owner of that company actually said, “we’re not going to do any research. There’s no point in us spending any money, all we need to do is we sit back, we wait for Erchonia to do their research, spend their money on it, spend their time, let them get the FDA clearance.” And he said, “all we have to do is we just file an equivalency with the FDA.” And he said he couldn’t believe that they could get an equivalency with like, say, a completely different wavelength, a completely different power. But they just have to file an equivalency with the FDA and say, Hey, we’re a laser too, we can do everything this device claims to do. And instead of spending $5 million, they just sent in a paper to the FDA and they get a clearance.
So it’s a really easy way to do it. And a lot of these companies are you know, they’re newer, they’re smaller, they don’t have the resources to do it. And they don’t have a Steve shanks. So I think that’s a big reason for doing what they do. And you look at all these companies, almost all those companies those class IV ones, their FDA clearance is based on claiming equivalency to a 1970s heat lamps study. And I encourage people to fact check me, go look at the 510 clearance for the other lasers, and you’re gonna see that and I’ll bring up some specific ones. So the Yvonne laser 510 clearance is for increasing topical temperature to decrease pain. That’s the only clearance cutting edge MLS laser increase surface temperature to decrease pain for temporary payments. That’s what the clearances are for. So I can at least speak to that one particular company as to why I hear from their former main researcher who, as he said they never did any research they just copied Erchonia on there.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, yeah, and for me, I, my mind immediately first goes to at the end of the day, you know, the people and I don’t want to say they’re gonna suffer, right? Because it sounds like very melodramatic and disingenuous. But what I mean by that is is imagine if every laser company, put in the same level of effort and money and resources into the research where lasers would be collectively, right? The tide rising for everybody. Because clearly these other these other laser companies have benefited from Erchonia’s research.
Imagine if they were engaging in high caliber research? How Erchonia you could benefit too, vice versa? Do you know what I mean? And I think Erchonia would be open to that, like, Hey, that’s a cool study that was done by XYZ laser company, this was this was powerful this, this shows and validates what we’re doing too you know, like almost like this, you know, field where everybody was collectively engaged with at the end of the day, the patient in mind, right? For the benefit of the patient is the real idea there that that to me is where my mind automatically goes it means.
And that kind of goes back to a little bit of you originally stating, or you were talking, when you talk about like Russia and these Eastern Bloc countries, why do you think it is, they see, and again, maybe this is just my perception, but they they seem to be further ahead in this game than we are? With with a lot of like, not just lasers, but a lot like the cutting edge stuff. You know, I was at a seminar with Jerome Rerucha. And he was talking about some of the studies back in like the 50s and 60s that Russia was doing with vibration plates and vibration therapy and things like that. What do you think it is about those countries or that region that that at least again, the perception where where they’re kind of further ahead on those things?
Dr. Kirk Gair: I hate to say this, because I am a capitalist, but I think it’s capitalism, you know, it has been the healthcare system. Here, we are so dominated by our pharmaceutical companies. They are the dominant driving force. So anything that’s outside of their control for their financial benefit gets suppressed and gets poo-pooed.
So in that study, if you look at that one, low level laser therapy in Russia, in 2017, they actually talked about this, and the Russians were confused. They’re like, “What the hell is wrong? Because you guys, you guys are not? This works really well, you know, this works really well.”
And I think the thing is that, you know, their system was designed just to save money, you know, because you’re trying to socialize it, and they’re trying to save money and just look at the results and and looking objectively at the research. And also in sports performance they’re looking at how do they get that unfair advantage too so they’re looking at it objectively.
Whereas when it comes to the US, there’s so many, and just looking at our FDA. I mean, come on, you know, you’ve got, we got the autism study, we submit that in 2018, and it still hasn’t gotten approved. And meanwhile, you got these radical Alzheimer’s drugs that all kinds of experts came out and said they’re dangerous and they got approved. So it’s just we have a completely different model. And I don’t say we should have a model like Russia at all, but I’m just saying that’s the downfall, that’s the negative impact of, of our type of system, especially when it’s dominated by by big pharma. The Russians also talked about that study, they said, one of the problems was that the studies in Europe, and in the US were using the wrong set of parameters. They said they use the wrong wavelengths, they use powers that were too high. And so and they said, they would then find one study that said, like say Aetna would find one study that said, Oh, at least it was ineffective. So they extrapolate that out to all lasers are ineffective. So they didn’t even use logic. They were just looking they had their conclusion in mind and look at how do we support? You know, the conclusion we want to have? So they had that bias going into it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What would you say are some of the other most maybe common myths or misconceptions around laser? Anything else? I mean, because obviously, this is the big one. Yeah, talking about is the wavelength versus power.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Right. I’d say perhaps the biggest one that is going to be depth of penetration. Because you hear this to where everybody starts hammering on, “oh, just the deepest penetrating laser. So it’s the best laser that’s on there.” Well, okay, the depth of penetration is going to be important. If you’re like, what you’re saying you’re using that class IV laser to try to heat up a joint to get that deep pain relief. When you use a high powered deep penetrating laser. The high power is inhibitory for pain signaling, but it’s also inhibitory for other types of cellular processes, the deep penetration, then you can get like into an arthritic joint or into a painful disc, you can get that thermal kind of a relief. However, that’s not what has to drive the bus for healing.
So let’s look at this, again, I encourage the doctors to fact check me. There are studies by Oran and Microphonics on Alzheimer’s and Parkinson’s, where they actually lasered over the tibia and showed, in a mouse model, they showed improvements in spatial awareness and cognitive functioning. And they said, “Wow, we didn’t even have the laser the brain but by using a visible laser. We were able to affect tissues far away.” And one of the theories was they said that lasering with the tibia stimulate mesenchymal stem cells, which then migrate up to the brain and clear it out amyloid beta plaquing, and improve brain function. And they said also created this whole signaling cascade, far away from the site of application. Kind of like having sunlight, I can get sunlight on my arm, and it’s not just going to stimulate vitamin D here, I’ll get melanin, I’ll get a melanin in here, but I’m gonna get vitamin D throughout the body, I’m also gonna get melatonin production, or effects in the brain by light stimulus here.
And so we look at this we can have, the depth of penetration is not what determines the factors. There’s a study on photobiomodulation in anulus cells effort for disc herniations. And it talks about violet, green and red wave into lasers, which do not directly penetrate to the disc. But they showed that with these lasers, you can stimulate these signaling cascades, that will stimulate extracellular matrix modifying enzymes to actually repair the disk. So that deep penetrating laser will not stimulate the extracellular matrix modifying enzymes, but you’ll get a thermal impact. So it feels good while you’re under it, but you don’t get long term changes. Whereas with these ones, you’re actually repairing the tissue with a surface penetrating laser.
And this goes back to what I mentioned earlier about that electron jump into the higher orbit. In that particular study, and this is basic physics for lasers and light, that is where they say you can take a violet laser, because some people are gonna say, “Oh, well, that’s just a dermatological, laser it only hits the surface.” Well, yeah, initially, but you get this cascade of events that occurs that can go deep through the tissues, because it’s signaling things deeply. Steve also talks about with the body being 60%, water, and blood being 90% water, that the blue and violet light propagates the best through water membranes, it goes the deepest, whereas infrared goes the shallowest, you hit these thermal impacts, whereas violet, and blue doesn’t get that. So you have this whole myth that visible lasers don’t penetrate deep enough to do anything beyond the surface. And that is easily knocked out by just reading about the physics or talking about the way these electrons jump up and fall down.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, Kirk, you can you can talk probably more specific on this, but I remember being shown at least one I’m sure there’s probably more than one study that they could visibly see on either functional MRI or something where when they laser your brain, they saw an immediate impact on various brain regions. And so, again, correct me if I’m wrong here, but what what you’re saying and we’re what the study is implying is though, even though it’s not directly like, “Okay, I shine a 635 nanometer or a 405 nanometer wavelength on the head, that is penetrating through the head and hitting the brain.” It’s not that it’s that it’s, there’s a signaling cascade, like a domino effect, if you will, indirectly. But but the but the thing that we’re seeing, at least on whatever imaging is taking place, that’s in real time, correct? I mean, it’s the signaling cascade is instant, I mean, the speed of light, right?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, it’s happening as you’re doing it. So like, we go back to the Erchonia autism study, they use functional MRIs on there. And they showed the kids brains before they got the laser and you’d see, you know, red showed where there’s neural activity and blood flow. And then they do the functional MRI and you see changes in that to where you’re seeing increases in blood flow, increases in neuronal activity, especially to the cerebellum and frontal lobe, which are very important for kids with autism to try to manage those symptoms.
And you and like you said, you’re seeing that in real time happening. It’s not like you’re trying to follow up months later. This isn’t a five minute treatment that you’re sitting it Calixto Machado who did the research on on autism, he also did studies with quantitative EEG is on the brain doing vagus nerve stimulation with the red violet combination, and you can see changes in the EEG that happen while you’re doing it.
I talked with my good buddy, Dr. Datis Kharrazian, about this stuff and he sent me a paper that was published when he was at Harvard getting his PhD in research showing that there are these canals too, that connect the bone marrow in the in the skull to the surface of the brain, and that stem cells and immune cells can migrate through these canals and our visible lasers to stimulate stem cells and, and immune cell migration too, so you get that benefit.
And then Penny and I, Penny is the West Coast sales rep for California. She and I had a really fascinating experience when we’re at Life West’s Wave in August of this year. We had our booth for Erchonia across from this company called the Wavy that does EEGS of the brain, they partnered with Crocs to create this new type of the EEG that doesn’t have all the mess and it’s got a really nice kind of kind of cap it’s put on there. And one of the administrators for Life West had a stroke. And so he’s over there and he’s getting the scan done. We didn’t know he was getting the scan done. But he’s getting the scan done it like at like 9:55 in the morning, and it maps his brain. You can see this complete dysfunction to where this whole hemisphere is just not firing at all. And so in between this time he comes over and he sits down under the FX.
We do a 10 minute session on the FX. We didn’t do any like functional neurostimulation know he just had the laser on his brain. So I didn’t even deal with any kind of eye movement activation or cranial nerve stimulation, just the laser on his brain. Out of curiosity. He didn’t tell us he did this, but he goes back across and he has Wavy run another brain scan on him. So it’s just one hour apart. And we have this paper showing it. It’s where Wavy didn’t know he got the laser. We didn’t know he got the Wavy done. And he gets this print out. It comes out. He’s like, “guys, check this out.”
And the guy who was who, who was there with Wavy comes over and asks us, “what the heck did you guys do?” We said, “why?” He’s like, “look at this scan. we saw a change here in just one hour apart, that we never have seen it change this rapidly for. Normally it takes,” he said, “months to see a change in the brain base. And you see how we had this little X on here, that’s where there was minimal brain activity. And that’s where his stroke was. And look at that you see the color change here indicating increased neuronal activity.”
And we saw really quickly, so we have objective evidence that it did it. And it’s safe, we’re not lighting them up with tons of too many photons, they’re like, you’re gonna see some of these other companies, the Voldemort laser that I mentioned earlier, they’ll show sticking 200 joules in two minutes on a person’s head. There’s one of them where they have four lasers doing 700 joules per spot for 2800 joules. On the patient’s brain. The World Association of laser therapy recommends only going between 2 joules and maybe 16 joules for a dosage. And they’re doing 2800 joules, which there’s no research to support it. So as you mentioned earlier, these doctors are going to get in trouble at some point because that laser is not FDA cleared for use head and the way they’re using it. There’s no research to support it. So whereas we’ve got all the studies that you said, showing the changes showing the benefits and the safety.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s wild. absolutely wild. Andrew, anything else you want to cover, myths and misconceptions? Any other questions? Burning Questions about lasers? You’ve given us a ton to chew on here Dr. Gair, a ton.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Cool. Awesome. I’m a total laser nerd.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, that’s awesome.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I just want to say, yeah, they know I really appreciate this. When I read before we started recording, you know, we said “this is probably going to sound like a rant. But also this is all true information.” And I like when Dr. Gair says, “just look up the research fact. Do your fact checking. And you’ll find the information.” And that’s what we found as well. You know, we’ve had the opportunity to interview a lot of really brilliant doctors, many of whom use, or actually all of whom use their Erchonia lasers, and they all say the same thing. Like there’s a lot of comfort and safety and peace of mind like Dr. Woolner mentioned in knowing their research and know what you’re putting on your patient’s body. What’s the best way to do that? If doctors are like, “Yeah, you know, I’m going to take you up on that challenge. I do want to look at the research, what is the easiest way to find the research specific to Erchonia lasers?”
Dr. Kirk Gair: Specific, just go on to the Erchonia website, that’s an easy way to do it, because they have links, you just click on Research. And that’s where, you know, I’d say if you’re looking at getting other lasers go on to the other lasers, companies websites, look to see if and list their their their FDA clearances. And they can see most of them just say “FDA cleared.” Which doesn’t say what and you need to know that because like, let’s say, here, I’m in California. And I do realize that six seminars three times a month training doctors, I tell him, “hey, whatever you’re going to do, make sure you see what it’s FDA cleared for because then you know how to use it.” Here in California, the board says not only does your laser has to be FDA cleared, you can only use it as its FDA cleared. So like any of these doctors who are using the Voldemort laser on the head, they’re in violation of the state board. It’s a board violation, what you’re doing right there.
And then if they’re marketing it, if they’re saying, “hey, I can use this laser for these brain conditions,” it’s not cleared for even use on the head. Whereas your Erchonia laser, and you can see this on the website, head to toe clearance for chronic pain and inflammation from the head to the toe. So that way, let’s say if something did happen, and the board asked you, “Hey, why did you use this laser on the head?” I’ve got an FDA clearance. “Is there any research that supports this?” Yes, we have the autism study, we have the acute EEG study by Calixto Machado. We have a pending FDA clearance for this stuff.
So you’re backed by it, whereas these other ones, they ask you, “do you have an FDA clearance for use on the head?” “Well no.” “What’s your laser FDA cleared for?” “for topical heating?” “Should you hate the brain” “Well No?” You know, you’re gonna get yourself in trouble. So you got to look at those things and think think objectively, and you got to think like a lawyer too. I mean, let’s be honest, that’s just what our nation is like. And even if you didn’t cause the actual injury, truth doesn’t matter. It perception is what matters. It’s kind of like when Bill Clinton was on trial for being impeached. And they asked him a question he told him “well, at depends on what your definition of ‘is’ is.” Spoken like a true lawyer that he was. You know, the truth doesn’t matter in the law. It’s just perception and how you spin it.
And that’s the thing is you open yourself up to vulnerabilities when use those ones in different ways. So you look there under the websites, compare one to the other, compare their FDA clearances, compare the research and do this, if they cite research, read the paper that they cite, because most of the time they’re gonna cite an Erchonia research paper or they’re gonna cite other research that doesn’t even support their laser most of the high power devices cite low power or research done there. So it’s like how can you use that to support your device when your device is completely different?
And the way they tried to do is by saying, “we could do this in a fraction of the time, we can do it one minute what took 20 minutes and fact check me on that.” Go on to PubMed, read the nuts and bolts of low level laser therapy, read the biphasic dose response even by by Hamlin, which was with Harvard. And you’ll see them talking about that those things are not accurate. The best way if you really want to dive into get the book by Tuner and Hod on low level laser therapy. It’s expensive. It’s like 170 bucks. It’s super thick, though in there they cite. There’s like 125 pages of research in there citing 2500 studies. So if you really, really want to learn this stuff, look at that. They have a great section, even talking about sales tricks on there, and it’ll list all the things we talked about, that’s talked about in that book, and they’re independent. They’re not associated with any laser company. So they’re just talking about the research, but that’s a great one to do.
Dr. Chad Woolner: For those who prefer microwave ribs. You can go for another laser company.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yes. Exactly.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The other thing I was gonna say before our webinars start our webinar, our podcast episode started with you here. I told Andrew, I said you need to pass this up the chain to Steve Shanks and everybody there at Erchonia. Tell them, they need to change the slogan for Erchonia to rip off micromachine’s slogan, “If it doesn’t say Erchonia, that’s not the real thing.” You know, remember the old machines slogan, “if it doesn’t say micro machine, it’s not the real thing”?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Exactly, exactly.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So anyhow. But yeah, Dr. Gair, thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be here with us. You’ve really given a ton of value and a ton of great information and appreciate you really helping.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, if I can add one thing, for docs to continue this discussion to make sure you join my Facebook group Dr. Gair’s Laser Therapy and Marketing Secrets on Facebook. Yeah, cause we’ve got close to 800 doctors in there now. And it’s a great discussion, it’s a great place where you can learn more. Yeah, any questions open. You know, even if you don’t have Erchonia lasers, I have doctors in there who have high powered lasers, because there’s benefits to those as well. Sure. But I just want to dispel the myths and see how you use different things for different conditions on there. And that’s a great place to learn more and to make connections with doctors.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. Thanks for offering that Dr. Gair. And I hope docs take you up on that, because sometimes I think docs listen this podcast and they have questions like “man, it’d be really cool to talk to Dr. Gair.” Well, here’s your opportunity to do that join the direct access to Dr. Gair. And yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Number one, I’ll put a link here in the show notes for that. But also, number two, I’m a member of that group, too. For what it’s worth. Not that not that there’s any value of me being there. But just what I can attest to is the fact that that Kirk, you are extremely engaged in the group, and constantly number one, on top of answering questions really, really well and effectively and quickly. And then number two, constantly putting out great, you know, articles, research papers, food for thought, tips, tricks, you name it, it’s a really high value groups. And what’s cool is at least for now, anyways, it’s a free group. And so docs should really take advantage of that. So great, great opportunity there. So awesome.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah. And that’s my intention is to keep it free. Because it’s, you know, I started with lasers 18 years ago. And that was before, we had podcasts, and webinars and seminars. I know how difficult it is. And I based my whole purchase of the laser off of Dr. Murphy. I trusted him. And so that’s what my basis was, but now we have access to more information. And my whole goal is, as you mentioned earlier, when things are done improperly, it’s bad for the whole category of lasers. Because then as they say, someone, a patient goes in, they get a bad result, or they don’t get the right device or someone said-
Dr. Chad Woolner: I tried that already, it didn’t work.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, exactly. We all do that. And you know, then that patient comes away they say, “Oh, laser doesn’t work.” And that’s bad for everybody. So my whole goal is just to help people be as good as they can be. Because I’m maxed out, I’m so booked. It’s just crazy that I have more than enough patients to deal with. People need help, especially now in the post COVID world where we’re seeing long COVID. And there’s things you can do with the lasers to help with that. And we really need like an army of doctors who have lasers and who have the knowledge of how to use it to help people so that they don’t succumb to the greed of the corporations who are just looking to get them on their drugs for the rest of their life.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, great. Great point. They’re so awesome. Well, thanks again. Dr. Garrett. Docs, thank you so much, though I should say Doc’s and patients, thanks for listening to this episode. We hope that this has been incredibly valuable for you. Share this with others. If you’re feeling like they need a little bit of a healthy dose of truth to help offset some myths and misconceptions to set them straight. Share this with him. And we will talk to you guys on the next episode. Have a good one.
Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchnoia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.
Red light laser therapy, otherwise known as low-level laser therapy (3LT®), is a promising emerging treatment used to treat a number of medical concerns including joint and back pain, among many others. Researchers have noted the effective biochemical and physiologic effects of therapy. 3LT® has specifically been shown to target inflammation reduction, tissue healing acceleration, and pain modulation. These positive effects have proven to pain practitioners that laser therapy is an effective and safe way to manage these chronic conditions.
Since the treatment is still new to the market, professionals and patients have many questions about its uses and safety concerns. Here’s why laser therapy for pain is perfectly safe for your patients. Of course, medical professionals must provide guidance for their patients. Here’s where you can start…
Low-Level Laser Therapy encompasses light therapies that utilize lasers in the red and near-infrared (NIR) range. These devices emit LED light at specific wavelengths, penetrating into the skin and providing powerful therapeutic effects at the cellular level.
These highly concentrated lasers stimulate cells to support the mitochondria, known as the “power generators” of the cell. As laser therapy is performed, the mitochondria absorb the light and increase the production of adenosine triphosphate (ATP), the cell’s fuel. The cells transform ATP into energy and cells become more energized, allowing them to perform their functions more efficiently as well as repair and regenerate damage.
Scientists have discovered under performance of mitochondria leads to adverse physical effects such as pain, and skin and immune deficiencies. Research has shown that light therapy in the red and NIR reduces pain for patients.
Related reading If you are interested in learning more about how 3LT® works.
3LT® is an extremely safe, non-invasive treatment and is not associated with any side effects at this time. The treatment is also fully painless.
The treatment is nontoxic and less harsh on the skin compared to topicals used to target the same concerns.
As with any treatment, overuse and abuse of laser therapy could lead to damage of the skin or eyes if proper protection is not used. Proper handling of the devices is imperative to their effectiveness and safety. Only practitioners who are qualified and trained in these therapies should be providing these treatment solutions.
The list of benefits for low-level laser therapy is extensive. Here are some of the reasons why practitioners in varied practices, use 3LT® to aid their patients:
3LT® has potential to improve patients’ overall health. By increasing cellular energy the treatment creates a positive chain reaction in the whole body. Similarly to how your energy levels affect your ability to perform at your best, whether that is in a sport, at work, or when facing obstacles, energized cells allow other parts of your body to perform at their peak.
No short-term side effects have been observed in any clinical trials and long-term effects are unlikely. However, the treatment continues to be reviewed and tested for further examination.
Given the often severe side effects of drugs and medications, light therapy is a great alternative for patients looking to stay away from painkillers. With the current opioid crisis, keeping patients away from potentially dangerous and addictive drugs is a priority.
Medical practitioners should consider 3LT® in their treatments and an alternative to prescription drugs. It is natural, safe, and effective. It can potentially treat many of the same symptoms and provide relief fast with none of the side effects.
As with any treatment, proper training and use of the device will ensure the safety of the treatment. 3LT® shows promising results in the treatment of numerous conditions including those of the skin, pain modulation, tissue restoration, and reducing inflammation. Within the scientific community, there is still continuing research and education in progress. However, 3LT® has shown to be a completely safe treatment with only positive outcomes for the patient.
Contact Erchonia today to learn more about how our 3LT® treatment can transform your practice.
What happens when you invite Dr. Brock and Dr. Berry to talk about anything they want at 11:00 pm??? Join us for a stimulating discussion about integrative health, science, research, politics, and the future of health.
https://www.erchonia.com/seminars/
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody, Dr. Chad Woolner here and this is episode 22 of the Laser Light Show, and on tonight’s episode we have with us our friends and special guests, Dr. Brandon Brock and Dr. Trevor Berry and we are going to be chatting with them. We’ve had a great day at the seminar here in Minnesota and so we’re going to spend some time chatting with them and it’s going to be a lot of fun. So let’s get started.
Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
All right, everybody. Welcome to the show. And welcome Dr. Trevor Berry and Dr. Brandon Brock. Great to be here.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Great to be here baby!
Dr. Chad Woolner: So do we need to give a disclaimer on this episode here, gentlemen?
Dr. Trevor Berry: Well, we have lectured for about 12 hours today, but let’s just keep on rolling. Keep the momentum going.
Dr. Brandon Brock: We know the rules. Keep going on.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So here’s the deal on this episode, we’re gonna paint a picture here. It’s about 10 o’clock at night. And we just finished up the seminar. If you guys noticed there wasn’t a title to this episode. There’s no subject. This is a potpourri episode, whatever comes out of our mouths is going to be the episode. So we have no plan here. And I also want to mention that there was…dinner was had, there may have been drinks at the dinner.
And so. So what you’re gonna get this episode is some truth mixed in with some truth serum. That’s right, and we’ll see what comes out. So hopefully, this will be a good episode.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, yes unscripted. So how was the seminar? According to you gentlemen, well received?
Dr. Trevor Berry: It was everything we could have hoped for because we pack so much information. When we’re streaming it’s a whole different of, you know, medium of timeline and audience. And we had, you know, 150 online doctors, but when you have that message that we’re trying to bring it, it’s you know it, it translates to all different kinds of providers. It’s good for the chiropractic community. It’s good for the medical community, the integrative practitioners. So hopefully it was well received. We got some good feedback today, and we had a lot of fun, most importantly.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It was ironic, because right next door to us there was a Crohn’s Foundation medical seminar. And it was hilarious because they had all their cake and candies and cookies and junk food there. And, and their seminar lasted all of, maybe like two or three hours, it seemed like they were like.
Dr. Trevor Berry: They were gone.
Dr. Brandon Brock: They cut out like diarrhea.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So I thought that was hilarious because the drug companies were like, “Okay, here we go, here are the latest and greatest drugs, start prescribing. There you guys go.” And that was the end of it. Meanwhile, we’re still going on. We got a whole other day ahead of us tomorrow. And yeah, that was, that was kind of funny. Ironic. Next door to us.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Ironic. I mean, we talked about…Dr. Berry and I lecturing and together, here’s the greatest really part of it. On improv, we’re sign languaging to each other of what to do, how to do it, the content we’re going over. And it just works out in a beautiful flow. It’s not overlapping. It’s not redundancy, it’s just a continuation of what we’re doing. And it’s not a lot of pre meditative stuff. It’s just a beautiful flow of I guess experiences though you would say.
Dr. Trevor Berry: When we teach the how we practice and the great vendors and companies we work with, like you guys, it flows naturally, you know. It doesn’t take…you know, we can improv, we can pivot, we can do all the things we can yell across to our colitis people about taking vitamin D. I don’t know if they heard me, but I screamed at the top of my lungs, how important it was.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah he was going for it.
Dr. Trevor Berry: But it was a great day and we appreciate SFM for being here because you guys are such an integral part about you know, trying to take that message and integrate it into a practice where doctors aren’t always comfortable with taking that full neurointegrative approach, but you guys do such a good job of bringing that to the field and natural translation to allow them to do it on Monday morning.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, we appreciate that. How long have you guys been teaching together like this in this team format fashion?
Dr. Brandon Brock: We’ve known each other for over a decade, I mean, but teaching together, I guess what about three years but you know, what’s funny is, we never really had to sit down and plan a whole lot of stuff, we just got our material, we sat down, and it just, it just kind of flowed. It was like a jam session. So I think that’s the best part of it. I mean, you know, when you’ve been lecturing for 20 years, and you know, kind of the people that you’re around, when you get to be with somebody that just can gel with you, and support you, and uplift you. And you don’t have to do a ton of like, really ritualistic planning. It is super. I mean, you leave from the seminar, and you’re on a high and not a low. And only that you feel like that you fulfilled all the cracks and crevices that people needed in order to get the information that they deserve. And, and I…just I don’t know, I just feel like there’s really like people like, of all the people on the earth, Trevor, Dr. Berry is one of the few that can do that. Or we can do that with each other. We just fill those cracks. And so it’s just really a natural kind of process.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It really is. I’ll be honest, it’s really impressive to hear both of you guys speak because you guys…it’s obvious that you cover a really, a huge breadth of information consistently. There’s not a whole lot that, from what I could see that really would catch you guys by surprise or anything in terms of questions that were asked in terms of pathways, in terms of all these different things. And it’s pretty important. seriously it’s impressive to see that because you guys really have a very…because, you Dr. Barry, you know, as a neurologist, you’re talking one minute neurology, than the next minute you’re talking, you know gastroenterology the next minute you’re talking, you know, in terms of…
Dr. Brandon Brock: …immunology?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah.
Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s very conversational too. Just kind of for both of you, kind of rolls off your brain, it’s amazing that you guys are very conversational about topics that most doctors I don’t think understand at a very surface level.
Dr. Brandon Brock: We practice in front of our animals a lot.
Dr. Trevor Berry: But in all sincerity, like we…Dr. Brock and I, love to teach how we practice. You know, we, we want doctors to be empowered to get out of their comfort zone, for lack of a better term where…you know, we all have our specialties, we all have our niches, but there’s so much more that the integrative community can offer, the chiropractic community can offer.
We are wellness practitioners, we do it better than anyone on the planet. So why not get out of the comfort zone of just…and that’s not minimizing pain management, and that’s not minimizing some of the common conditions. But if we can start running labs and start doing…you know, integrative therapies and immunology, and leaky gut, and leaky gut, all those things we talked about today is that there’s no better group than your audience to handle and address those things.
So what Dr. Brock and I feel like is…that we want to empower those doctors and just give them even some stepping stones to get out of that comfort zone so that they’ll start running labs not just on their patients, but on themselves, on their family members, things like that. And when they do that, and they start to develop that confidence in those systems, then the way we can take that to the patient base, we’re going to affect changes in the neurodegenerative community in the you know, the autoimmune community and stuff that nobody else is doing on the planet. And so that’s what that’s what drives us. That’s what our passion is.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, I mean, we were doing depth of practitioner development. I mean, when you look at this, it’s an integrative practitioner. I mean, there’s so many, you know, titles that are put on people to practice in health care, there’s a functional neurologist, there’s a functional medicine. We’re really just trying to say, look, you know, people come in with so many different problems that you really, it’s difficult to identify as one person that can identify as somebody that will help that one person.
We’re just integrative, whatever you got going on, we want you to have at least a skill set to be able to deal with that issue. And there’s a little bit of cognitive dissonance that has gone into all of healthcare, meaning, if you’re in the medical system, you have to fit into that, if you’re in the chiropractic system, you have to fit into that if you’re in the functional medicine system.
And we’re kind of trying to break that paradigm I think that we would say and it’s like this, they’re all of them belong there. Just which portion do you belong in? And what is going to work? And it’s so foreign to some people who…their entire educational identity lives in that system. So if you break it, you just become some sort of an outcast. And it, we’re both this. We’re outcasts, but we’re actually in-cast. In other words, we are bringing the systems together, despite what people…their leaders and those individual systems think. And we’ve been around long enough, and we’re like, “You know what I really don’t, I really don’t care a whole lot about what people think we’re just going to bring this together so that the people who are learning from us can actually go away with what they need to do.” And that’s why I love working with Dr. Berry, because we have the same philosophical and theoretical underpinnings of what we’re doing.
Dr. Trevor Berry: And were founded on the basics of the chiropractic education, the neurology. Yeah, that’s, that’s our underpinnings, but you know, it, it allows us to have that foundation to jump off of that and go into, “Hey, chiropractors can be doing labs, they can be doing laser, they can be doing all the things that we teach.”
Because it really is based on the platforms that we’re taught from. It’s brain based, neurologically based stuff because everything comes back to neurological integration, neurological parameters, and there’s nobody better on the planet to deal with that than the chiropractic community. But what we know now, this is not undermining the chiropractic adjustment. That’s the most powerful neurological tool we have in our armament. But why not take that foundation and build from it, you know, just branch from it like a beautiful tree like a beautiful bonsai tree, and we just keep pruning and clipping and getting it and there’s always that evolution of our understanding. And you know, I daresay D.D. and B.J. (Daniel David Palmer and B.J. Palmer – Ed), if they were alive today, they would want to be, they were pioneers of this stuff, they were so cutting edge, why not take those cutting edge concepts and bring it to what we know today based on research and clinical applications?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Absolutely. Yeah, I remember, when I finished chiropractic college, I remember going through a period…there was a period of about five years where I kind of went through this kind of identity crisis. I went to University of Western States, which not surprisingly, is very, they, they pride themselves on being very evidence based, for whatever that means, you know, what I mean, in terms of, you know, philosophically, whatever that means. And, and I remember when I started there, heavily buying into that kind of mindset and philosophy and almost, you know, to the, to the point of, if you didn’t go to an evidence, quote on quote, evidence based school, then you were somehow inferior in terms of that. And I very much thought that. And, and I also bought into this idea that somehow going to an evidence based school was going to give me a certain level of an edge, so to speak, in terms of relationship with medical counterparts. And then I remember getting out of school, and realizing that the medical community has their own ideas regarding chiropractic.
And typically, at best my experience was, they were indifferent towards us at best. And then all of a sudden, I’m like, “Oh, man, that so this isn’t what I was thinking it was going to be” and then not feeling like I fit in with kind of more of the principled or philosophically based chiropractors. And it wasn’t until I started working with chiropractors across the country, in a marketing capacity slash consulting capacity, that I started to get exposed to some of these doctors and I started to realize school mattered very little, right? In terms of…in terms of the quality and caliber of the doctor.
What mattered more was, what I see with you guys, that’s very clearly reflected is, you see the end from the beginning, meaning it’s at the end of the day, it’s about the patient, right? The reason you guys are doing all the education that you’re doing isn’t so you can stack up a bunch of credentials, and, you know, alphabet soup behind your name, which is cool, that’s great, you know, but it’s very obvious that you’re doing these things with the end result in mind that…”Look, we need to have as many tools and skills and things that we can have at our disposal to help facilitate whatever is necessary to help the end patient.” And that’s I think what I’m hearing from you guys, which I could not agree more with, is I think that’s what hinders…at the end of the day the patient is when people get, so we Andrew and I we talk about this all the time, when docs get so deeply entrenched in their own dogma this to me, which was you that posed the question was “Which chiropractic technique is the best?”
Dr. Brandon Brock: Just lock the door, leave the room and watch- It’s like the, you know, the Will Ferrell movie with where he’s, you know, the Anchorman Ron Burgundy…the street fight!
Dr. Trevor Berry: What is best for the patient, right? And that’s all that matters. At the end of the day, Dr. Brock and I, and you guys as well, like it is about getting patient outcomes. However it gets there, whatever is the best medium you get there. That’s our duty and our job as healthcare providers. It’s not based on…”I’m an activator, expert…” That’s all great. We’d love every technique. Yes, chiropractic. Yeah, it is what’s going to get the patient the best result?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and interestingly enough to what you’re talking about there, it was this very kind of almost paradoxical thing where I remember finishing school, and feeling like the diversity within the profession. I could not stand it. I wanted standardization. You know what I mean? There needs to be standardization, because you just never know what you’re gonna get.
Dr. Trevor Berry: Good luck.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But since then, I’ve come full circle. And that’s the very thing that I do love about the profession is because now, you know, there’s something for everybody. Do you know what I mean, in terms of these various techniques and approaches wouldn’t be around if they weren’t getting some sort of result for patients? You know?
Dr. Brandon Brock: I mean, I went on a 15 year full circle journey. Went through the medical cycle and came back to the chiropractic cycle. And people look at me like the sort of the Wesley Snipes Day Walker. I’m sort of, I’m sort of both I’m like, half-vampire, half-not.
And it really is, it’s kind of a good thing. But it’s kind of also a double edged sword kind of thing. And I mean, you know, when you’re using medicine, and you love medicine and pharmacology, but you also love the philosophy and the belief of chiropractic, everybody sort of looks at you a little bit differently. But when we teach what we’re doing, we are looking again…I went on this full circle, but it’s no different than what Dr. Berry is talking about, we’re just looking at people and saying, what is going to work for somebody. I mean, so we’re not really a functional medicine, we’re not really functional neurology. We’re just sort of integrating ideas and trying to build on our experience.
If you couple us together, we’ve got close to 20, you know, our 50 years of experience, right? So we’ve seen a few things during that time, we’ve been through a few things. We know a little bit about what people think. And what people…I guess the biggest thing is what people expect, man. And so people expect this, they don’t really care about what your title is, they care about one thing; “What are you gonna do?”
And so we have to pull out all the stops. And we…and I think the biggest conviction that we have is we’re both clinicians, but honestly, we’re both teachers, right? We’re both lecturers, I’m gonna say teachers, because I think a lecturer is kind of looking for money. But we’re both teachers, we want the word to spread. So we want to sort of bring out the word of what it is that what we’re doing. And there’s no cognitive dissonance, we’re not putting ourselves in a box where we’re breaking out. And so we’re like, Hey, man, what works. I mean, we have acupuncture, we have nutrition, we have chiropractic, we have medicine. And it’s one of those things where it’s really an organic based growth, where we’re bringing a bunch of different things together. And it’s not that anybody’s a bad guy, or anybody’s the best guy. It’s what exactly is your patient paying for?
Dr. Andrew Wells: One of the things that we that you guys talked about today was, you go really deep into some of the research, but some of the, a lot of the clinical protocols you guys are talking about are pretty fundamental things. And this is an Erchonia seminar that we’re teaching at, and this is an Erchonia podcast that we’re talking about, and we talked a lot about lasers having a lot of…a lot of applications across a lot of different parts of the body and a lot of physiology. We’re talking about bioenergetics and how lasers can pretty much be applied to anything that pharmacology can be applied to without the side effects. And so I’m kind of curious, are there any other parts of what you guys are doing that have as many applications as low level laser therapy?
Dr. Brandon Brock: No.
Dr. Trevor Berry: It, you know, you heard me use the example I called the Jedi lightsaber of any kind of practitioner or whether you do musculoskeletal pain management, orthopedics, whether you’re doing immunology, whether you’re doing brain based rehab; low level laser with the Erchonia product is the great equalizer. It can overcome, no matter what your training is, no matter what your background is, when you have one of those devices in your hand, it will create inevitably, by getting that light on the patient’s head on the patient’s body, it creates the healing process that no matter what your training is, what your background is, its intrinsic to that device. So that’s why in our audience today, we had medical doctors, we had natural paths, we had chiropractors, we had massage, like we have every specialty in our audience, because it brings something to the table for every type of specialty. And that’s the beauty of it is just by being able to turn it on and shine it on the brain, shine it on the knee, shine it on whatever body part you’re doing, you’re going to do things in your particular specialty, and get results that that maybe you couldn’t have before wouldn’t have before.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, medication is something we try to use in lieu of this. I mean, listen, we all try to use it, supplements as well, lifestyle. But when you got a laser that doesn’t have, like a lot of side effects, and believe me, I was the most critical person. I mean, in just looking at the research, Dr. Berry, now we’ve known each other for years. And so just talking, going back and forth, there’s a long process of getting together to where we were both on the same page, and saying, you know, look, I trust this to the point where I can actually talk about it, say something about it, and show that it has efficacy. And that’s a big word, efficacy. You know, so we both been doing neurological rehabilitation, or the Pedic types of, you know, modalities. And it’s like this, look, if you’re a medical practitioner, it fits in, if you’re an acupuncturist, it fits in, if you’re a chiropractor, it fits in. In other words, it’s not, it’s not a congregational type of thing, if you will, it’s really nondenominational. Okay.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Universal.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, it’s universal, it fits in. And, you know, the thing that we continuously say is, it is something…it’s a modality that fits in, but doesn’t have the dire consequential side effects of some of the things that we see.
And by the way, we do all kinds of things that have the potential consequences that can happen with medicine or healthcare. You know, whether it be a surgical procedure or pharmacological procedure. I love lasers, because it’s either going to be good, or probably nothing. And so we see a lot of good. Patients like it, they don’t have to experience the downfall. And there’s research behind it. And really, the patients tell you, they feel better, it’s not you trying to convince them. So that’s what I love about it. And you know, some of the stuff that we do otherwise, you know, you go home at night worrying about it, I don’t go home at night worrying about a laser.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s a nice feeling. I was gonna say, kind of tying this in a little bit…kind of roundabout. There’s some interesting stuff that…that’s happening in Idaho right now, legally, I don’t know if you guys have heard, but right now there’s this very big push, or at least seems like it’s been a big push. They’re changing the, they’ve essentially created a new naturopathic board. They’re waiting on the governor to appoint the board, but the law has been approved. And it was actually, the new bill was called SB 1330, for anybody who wants to Google it, or whatever. But the whole bill was primarily pushed through by a medical doctor.
And basically, what he was wanting was kind of this new umbrella outside of the purview of the medical board. So that any and all practitioners who didn’t want to adhere to a rigid standard of care that was, that tends to be imposed in that medical world could basically flock too so to speak, to be able to use some of these kind of what would be considered in the medical model unconventional. You know, like laser therapy and things like that. As crazy as that is, right? And so what’s interesting, though, is what in essence it would do, and it’s getting a little bit of kickback from what I understand from kind of the quote on quote, conventional naturopaths, who have you know. Which is crazy to me, because you’ve got what like four naturopathic colleges now, I think Western University of Western States just started a naturopathic program. I heard that the National College in Portland is closing down. It may have already…have you guys heard that? I heard that. Yeah. Anyways. So anyway, anyhow. But the point is, you would think that this would be a… and this is the…I chatted with the medical doctor, who was championing this. And he was saying, he’s hoping that what this will be is kind of a standard that will then spread across the states. So that basically…because there’s always been this kind of within the chiropractic profession, this kind of if you want to call this stark divide, those who want to integrate more into the medical model of things, those who don’t and just want to completely…this seems like a very viable kind of happy medium compromise, if that’s what you want to call it. To where if you want to kind of practice more than model because what they did in Idaho, this bill was they he said he modeled directly off of the medical act so that this the scope of practice, in essence for the naturopaths would be virtually identical to a family practice physician.
Dr. Brandon Brock: I mean, think about it, it’ll open his empirical scope. So he, I mean, in a lot of states, there’s a very strict empirical code where you have to follow medical necessity, medical says, you know, the guidelines. And so, I mean, listen, naturopaths are some of the most trained practitioners really in the world. And they’re setting standards and all this stuff. So if they get brought into the scenario, it opens up the medical world to where you really can have sort of cross pollination between the two systems.
When you’re looking to somebody that’s like this, “I’m not going to get the medical board to change, but what I can do is get another board created.” That’s, and I mean, I come from Texas, there’s I mean, we’re so far from like, you know, legitimizing naturopaths. But some of the best stuff I’ve ever learned is from naturopathic practitioners. I mean, I’m like a non-discriminating learner. I mean, it’s like, what if you can teach me something that’s good. And I can share it? Let’s do it. But when we come to state politics and legislation, this individual that has this medical practitioner that’s doing this, he’s got the right idea in mind, because he realizes he can’t probl… and I’m just speculating, but he can’t do it through his own board. So if there’s another board, and they kind of connect, it allows like this significant leeway to go into traject.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That was…the surprising thing to me was, there was a period of time, many years ago, where I had contemplated the idea of going to medical school, in conjunction. And it was the idea of it was very appealing at first because it was like my scope would open up. And then I’d have my chiropractic skills, as well as the medical. And I chatted with a friend of mine who had done just that. And I was like, oh, man, this is gonna be so cool. And I chatted with him on the phone. And, and all of a sudden, it opened my eyes. He’s…I’m like, “So what do you do now? Do you just have like this massive, you know, expanded scope?” And he’s like, “No.” He said, “I just basically do medicine. I check meds for old people, and sick people. And I refill prescriptions.” And I’m like, “So do you, like, adjust people?” He’s like “Every now and again, I might do a thoracic adjustment.”
Dr. Brandon Brock: And it’s a lie. It’s extremely redundant.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, well, and he said, and that was the thing that was like eye opening to me. He’s like, he’s like, I was like, so you don’t like if somebody comes in with headache or neck pain, or you don’t adjust? He’s like, “Oh, heck no.” He said, “Because if heaven forbid, if something were to go wrong, you’re screwed.”
Yeah. And then and I’m like, and all of a sudden, my eyes where I was like, that’s crazy. Because now all of a sudden, you’re held to a different standard in the sense not even…I don’t even say a higher standard, just a different standard. And that you’rem you’re set in a very rigid scope of practice.
Chiropractors, if something were to adversely happen with a cervical adjustment, heaven forbid, or whatever. That’s the standard scope of practice, you’re expected to adjust people from head to toe, you know. And so to me, it was just like, so…anyways, long story short, I’d love to see more movements like this taking place. Because breaking down these barriers, and these walls, I’d love to see more things like lasers become more mainstream. And I feel like the way that that becomes more mainstream is it gets adopted by more than just chiropractors, you know,
Dr. Brandon Brock: If you’re a medical practitioner, and you’re a chiropractor, basically, what’s going to happen is this, you’re expected to be more medical over chiropractic. Which means this, you just don’t approve of it. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I went through this loop, right. So you get…there’s no way you can get trained in the system and not start to appreciate medicine. I mean, I do.
But what’s happened to me is, I’ve realized the limitations and strength of both systems. And you end up coming all the way back around to where you began. So you start out with, you know, Harvey, right, getting his hearing back and you go through chiropractic. And then you want to know, like, I gotta go through medicine. So I went through medicine, and you’re like, I gotta go through research, you go through research. And at the end of the day, you’re like, back at chiropractic. But you’re just enriched with what exactly it is that you have. And it’s like this; you’ve got all of it and you realize there’s a place for all of it, but you realize, chiropractic is actually a little bit of a free spot. It’s not this, if you deviate from the straight line, like in medicine, man, I gotta be honest with you, if you deviate from the straight line, you’ve deviated from the straight line.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You see that these past two years with how many doctors who spoke based on evidence and their conscience and they’ve gotten crucified. Previously…two years…if we were to go back in a time machine and say Dr. Peter McColl, everbody would be like, “Oh, he’s a genius.” Dr. Robert Malone, and Brian Cole in Idaho, right? You talk about these guys two years ago, they were the best…brightest, you know, most decorated you know, most well researched, you know, respected. Now, all of a sudden they’re…they’re lunatics, their quacks their heritics…
Dr. Trevor Berry: They’re stigmatized.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Totally.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Listen, it’s that…that’s medicine. And you just, what you just described as this. You just mix scientific evidence with politics with big business, you know? And so yeah, it’s one of those things where it’s like, you can’t…you can’t have all of them. You’ve got to stay…and so what Dr. Berry and I tried to do is we just tried to stick with evidence and what works versus adhering to a system and so…
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and that’s the thing that I can appreciate about you guys, is you’re not stuck in some closet, looking on, you know, PubMed all day long. You’re actually doing these things. And so when we say evidence, when you say evidence, and this has been one of my biggest contentions, especially with that term, quote unquote, evidence based medicine, that means one thing and one thing only it means peer reviewed studies, period. You know, and it’s not that I don’t appreciate that I do. You know, and I know you guys could talk circles around us in terms of that lingo and that language.
However, you guys are also self aware enough, and intelligent enough and engaged enough to know that that’s only one piece of evidence. You know, that’s all great in theory…and I don’t want to say theory, right? Because, Dr. Berry, you’ve been doing these studies in your practice, like, so you’re in the trenches doing it, you’re not just, you know, again, looking at random data, that’s, that’s removed from you. And I know you are too as well. And so, you know, evidence also exists and you can’t, you can’t like…case in point for me is the big one that I always think about is; chiropractic adjustments and nocturnal enuresis, right? Everybody would say, the studies completely debunk that claim that chiropractic helps with nocturn…what do you say to the thousands, if not millions, of patients and their chiropractors who have experienced it firsthand? Like it’s all fake? It’s all placebo? Maybe I don’t know. But I mean, you can’t, you can’t dismiss that you can’t just be “It’s nonsense. It’s…” you know what I mean? Because the peer reviewed literature doesn’t support it. Well, okay. I understand that. But is there? Is there another form of evidence that…there clearly there is?
Dr. Brandon Brock: You know, the story of evidence based medicine? I mean, there was a couple, a married couple. And they were coming up with evidence based medicine, which was really supported, or it was a means of…to support what people were trying to progressively do. The medical establishment took it and used it as a way to limit what you can do, really. And this was a Harvard couple, of course, everything’s, you know, boils down to Harvard.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Do you know, you know, that doc in Texas, Dr. Ben? He, he was a big outspoken proponent at the beginning of the whole COVID thing. But he was talking about a study that was…he cited that there was this video that went fairly viral. And he said, when you look at like, the the paper that was written kind of defining what evidence based medicine was about. He said, there’s a hierarchy: patient values trump the peer reviewed literature. It goes in terms of the hierarchy, patient values first, then doctors personal clinical experience, then the papers. That’s like the hierarchy, you know, who I’m talking about, well, what’s his name?
Dr. Brandon Brock: I don’t know who it is. But it’s really interesting about this paper, these papers. And so when COVID and…without jumping in front of Dr. Berry, I mean, it’s really important that people kind of understand some of these statistics. Like, when you looked at the initial efficacy of like, let’s say vaccines and stuff like that, in regards to COVID. I mean, we started out with these things called RR values, the relative risk, and it’s very easy to calculate. But however, it has very little scientific value, because you can’t take an RR value, you have to turn it into an absolute value. And then you have to take that and statistically and mathematically, turn it into a need to vaccinate. And it’s really crazy that some of the greatest journals in the world published the RR values. And if you were to do that with any other journal on any other thing, you would get crucified, you can’t do it.
And it was like this vaccine is like 95%, effective against COVID. And you’re like, What do you mean against COVID? Like, against catching it, getting it dying from it? There was these numbers getting thrown out the media. So we went back and we’re like, look at these are the RR values, we want the AR values in the N&X? Well, they wouldn’t give us the absolute values. So we had to go back and we had to find those and we had to then calculate the N&X and so what we found out is this, maybe some things are not as cracked up as they are made up to be in regards to their efficacy, okay?
And it’s kind of a shame because you have to be somebody that can really actually go back and break down the stuff. And so we were told this is proprietary information, you can’t get an AR. For the like the New England Journal of Medicine or some other journal to say something like that is ludicrous. It’s all public information until it means something important. And I mean, I understand this is a very politically and actually personally sensitive matter. Which, and I don’t shame people for this, and I think that, I don’t have an opinion really on this in regards to vaccine, but I have an opinion on is science. And when I went through all of my statistical training like postdoctorate, I did secondary analysis and drug design. And to do a drug design in eight months, when it should take 10 years, and you look at the fact that maybe a couple if not a several steps were dismissed. And then you start going back and you look at the data that was over, sort of, like, almost kind of like just, I mean, not fabricated. I gotta be careful about that. But it was just sort of jumped over the mathematical steps and there were assumptions made.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Did you hear that doctor that was interviewed on Joe Rogan’s podcast, and he said that it is completely not only legal, but it’s standard operation for pharmaceutical companies to deliberately withhold data, and they give the data that they want to give to the doctors actually analyzing the data.
Dr. Brandon Brock: I was told this. It’s like, what’s the control of your study? And what is the experimental group of your study? They’re like, it’s the biggest experimental group in the world and like, “What are you talking about?” They’re like “Everybody that got the vaccine.” And I was like, “Well, listen, where’s the consent sheet?” And they’re like, “Doesn’t matter.”
So you gotta realize that we’re all in a big experiment. They’re collecting data. But I mean, if I was to do a prospective study, and I didn’t delineate very clearly the right inclusive and exclusive criteria, there would be a situation of all hell breaking loose. But it’s like this, there’s this dichotomy of rules. And I think that’s what people are, like, upset about, they’re not upset about the science, they’re not upset about right or wrong, they’re upset about this; the dichotomy of rules. There’s the little scientists out there, like Dr. Berry and I that are just questioning things. And there’s this big group of guys out there that are getting paid, and when I say not millions, but billions to go through the stats. And then when they collide, you know, it’s not always going to be a pretty picture. And I think that that’s the beauty of science. I mean, that…really what I’m talking about this, and I really want to talk through this and say my piece is…
Dr. Chad Woolner: And we’re not talking 2020 science, we’re talking science, science. The scientific method is what you’re talking about. The beauty of this word has been so destroyed, hasn’t it?
Dr. Brandon Brock: No, listen, the beauty of the scientific method is; A. I ask a question, I’m allowed as a scientific practitioner, which is what I am, to ask a question. Okay.
Dr. Trevor Berry: That’s where it starts.
Dr. Brandon Brock: And then you say, okay, look, there’s a scientific question. Is there any kind of validity? Is there any kind of research? Is there any systematic, you know, studies that can support exactly what I’m thinking? Or am I crazy? And then you look at that and say, okay, look, there’s room to go further than this. And then you set up some sort of like, small sort of like study that can kind of look at things. And then ultimately, you got a bunch of practitioners. They’re asking questions, legitimate questions. And they’re actually saying things to people who make decisions. And these people who make decisions are committees. And then these committees decide what is actually realistic and what is not.
And when you’re told that everything that you think is non realistic, and you shouldn’t say anything anymore, we all as a private community, here’s what we do, we retract, and we say nothing. And then nothing gets reported. And when that happens, the public is at danger, in spite of monetary gain, and this is not an anti-vax, or anti-disease or pro-this or pro-that. This is just strictly like, I love my patients. And we can no longer think that way. We’re being told…actually there’s a…I mean, I don’t want to get put in the group of those folks. But we’re in a bit, being censored. Our thoughts as scientists, if you’re a great mind, which I’m not saying I am, but I am a good questioner, and I do do good secondary analysis. And I can’t question what somebody says when the research might be at the highest level, at the highest impact journal deficient and I have every right in the world to ask that question as a health care provider without being criticized. And if it’s wrong, it’s wrong. If it’s right, it needs to be acknowledged. I mean, I don’t know Dr. Berry, what do you think about that?
Dr. Trevor Berry: Well, and, I, to dovetail off that commentary, because I’ve been doing laser neurology for 15 years, and they’re doing a lot more collaborative speaking. Like we…Erchonia has the most phenomenal speakers; Dan Murphy, Kirk Gair, Jerome Rerucha, Rob Silverman, Kristin Hieshetter, …all these phenomenal speakers but when they asked me, “Who do you want to collaborate with?” I went to Dr. Brandon Brock. And one of the reasons I did that is not only…he’s one of my mentors and teachers, but I knew everything I had in my mindset about what lasers can do. I’ve read, it doesn’t matter how many I’ve read over 3,000 papers on low level laser, there’s almost 12,000 papers on low level laser therapy. And I wanted to challenge my own belief system.
There’s nobody better on the planet that would challenge me than this guy sitting next to me, Dr. Brandon Brock, because he knows research. He’s done his Harvard stuff on it and that kind of thing. So what I wanted to do was put my own belief system to task because I knew if I brought him on board, that he was going to dissect everything that I believed, everything that I was teaching art and scrutinize…
Dr. Chad Woolner: Just for the record, you’re getting a doctorate in research, is that correct? Where’s that?
Dr. Brandon Brock: Well, I mean, this is…I feel like I’m talking to my kids right now. It’s like, “What does your dad do for a living?” You know? And they’re like, “I don’t know.” I mean, listen, I gotta make this really clear. It’s like, I started out as a chiropractor, and I’m proud of that. I mean, these are, this is a place to say it. I mean, I’m a chiropractor. There’s…you can’t take that away. I mean, once you become a chiropractor, you can’t take that essence away. And by the way, here’s what I’ll say. I learned anatomy and…I learned physiology better than anybody. It was beautiful. I know the biomechanics and the way the body interacts in a way that I really think that not a lot of people understand.
Well, then I wanted to go into the medical world. And I went into the nursing profession, because I really liked the way the nursing profession really loves people. And then I became a nurse practitioner, then I got a doctorate in nursing practice. And so I understood the leadership of really a family medical environment. And by the way, the ability to love people and see people from a nursing perspective is something you don’t get from medicine all the time. It’s really caring for people so I love that.
Dr. Chad Woolner: My dad’s a retired nurse so…
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, and you can’t, listen, if you ask really dying patients about who their hero is, a lot of times the majority, the times they’ll say, my nurse, they took care of me, they loved me. And so I was like, you know what, I already know this physiology. I know the anatomy, I want to know how to like love people, because I was I got a doctor degree, I was like, 24, I didn’t really know anything. I was not mature enough to have a doctor degree, I’ll be real honest with you. When I went there in the nursing profession, I learned how to love and care for, and see people from a vulnerable, “I’m dying” perspective. And it’s not that medical providers don’t do that. But I…that’s just the path I chose.
Well, then after that, you know, there’s all these fellowships, there’s all these diplomates, and you’re learning all this functional medicine, all this integrative medicine, and you’re learning that you’re getting experienced. Well, then I’m like, let’s get a PhD because if you’re like me, I’ve got too many questions. And by the way, the worst thing you could ever do is ask questions, and then set up research in a way that’s just completely wrong. It’s not that it’s bad. But you have to know how to do it, in order for it to be worth your time.
And I have people every day that are kind of beating me up and saying, you cannot ask a question that way. Here’s the scientific method. Here’s the rigor behind the way you think. And I was 99%, clinician, 1% researcher. But what I learned how to be is 40% researcher, 60% clinician, and that researcher in me is not necessarily somebody that’s going to go off in academia. But I’ve learned how to know research what my patients need to know. And if there’s a valid research study out there, now you can kind of sit down and say, this is a way we can do it, where it’s not absolutely illogical. That’s all I bring to the table. And we…I look at Dr. Berry, I mean, it’s like, look, there’s no way I’m ever going to be able to catch him on the understanding of…of lasers. And by the way, we’re not even trying to do that. You got to understand something, we work together in a way where it’s like, wherever there’s a…and this is really honestly the truth. And I think this is the best way to explain it. Wherever there’s a gap. And either one of us we fill that gap. And it’s a little bit of a bromance. I’m sorry, but, but the thing is this, I love you man.
Dr. Trevor Berry: I love you too, man.
Dr. Brandon Brock: But it’s like we we actually intertwine we there’s not, we’re old enough to not have egos, because we’ve been through stuff where we’ve been just, you’ve been demolished a few times. And that kind of gets rid of it right?
Dr. Trevor Berry: The most important thing is bringing the fact that we challenge each other in a positive way to bring the newest information and the most cutting edge research and when, you know, just three of my papers today were literally published in the last week, you know. And that’s our job, to challenge each other so that we were never going to get complacent with this stuff because a lot of the the old school stuff it’s not…you know, that’s what we were founded on, but there’s such a continued…especially in the field of neurology, if you’re not constantly on the cutting edge of bringing new applications…
Dr. Brandon Brock: …you’re a dinosaur.
Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah. And then to put it into our own practices, that’s why we both want to be in the trenches. I don’t want to retire, I don’t want to…you know, we want to be doing this stuff to see those outcomes with our patient base. And that’s why it’s so important for both of us to be in practice. We’ll finish speaking this week, and we both go to practice Monday morning, and implement exactly what we’re teaching for the weekend.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, and Dr. Berry will bring up research. And here’s the thing. I mean, when you go through PhD or research work, and he’s been a PI on studies, so I mean, it’s really, that’s, that’s a big thing. You realize this, your ego doesn’t mean a whole lot, the information that you know, is going to change. And so when he brings up research, or I bring up research, we just absorb it, and it’s not…listen, if it dings your, you know, your philosophical or theoretical belief system, it’s just the way it is, it’s going to always change so…
Dr. Trevor Berry: And it’s a beautiful thing. Our profession has always been on the forefront, the cutting edge, the, you know…we do things that, that the standard old school model doesn’t do. But that’s such…that’s what separates us from the other healthcare providers.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I think one unique thing about you guys that I’ve noticed that comes across really strongly, you guys are both very curious people. And one thing I wanted to ask, as you guys, were you always just curious, in life in general, or was there something about healthcare and taking care of patients that sparked that, and what and what continues to drive that?
Dr. Brandon Brock: You tell your story, I’ll tell mine, because we both have probably have very interesting stories as well.
Dr. Trevor Berry: And so for…I loved, you know, we both went to Park or we were there together at the same time. And, you know, I really appreciated the different techniques, the different, you know, our understanding, but there were so many questions in neurology that I’m like, “Well, they say this, but something didn’t quite jive for me.” So I wanted to understand the pathways and the, you know, the, the physiology, the neurology and that kind of stuff. And so that’s why we both came, became board certified neurologists, was to start to fill in some of those gaps. And that’s not taking away from the foundation of…if anything, it builds on what chiropractic was, is based on.
And so as we continue to do that, that’s it just keeps flourishing in a way that, like, you know, what we can do now with the nervous system and understanding with things like low level laser therapy, why…it’s based…it’s the fabric of what makes up the chiropractic community. It is such a beautiful symbiotic relationship, you know, what we bring to the table to the healthcare community. So it seemed obvious to me to branch into those areas and say, “Okay, if I can change brain with a chiropractic adjustment, what else can I do to change the brain and improve and if there’s other tools to do that, whether it’s a nutrition product, a laser, you know, that kind of thing.” But then it became very important to me to, I knew low level laser was one of the biggest game changers in the field of brain based rehab very early on, and you know, over…I’ve been doing it now for over 15 years. But it was…I’m going to do it in the…with the device that was the safest number one, and the most efficacious. And again, I’m careful to say that word in front of my research buddy, right here…
Dr. Brandon Brock: Efficacious is a deadly word.
Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, it’s a deadly word in research, you know. But that was why I attached my cart to the Erchonia horse. Is that they nailed. It all the parameters, and it keeps being validated study after study after study is what Erchonia brings to the table. They nailed it, they were on the, on the forefront of that.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Well, you know, when I was a kid, here’s what happened to me, and this is kind of a silly story, but it’s actually worth telling. I mean, I had a pecan tree and a pear tree in my backyard. And we all know that in order for these things to bear appropriate fruit, you need to have something to cross pollinate with, right? And so we never got really good fruit. We never got really good pecans. And we always got broken trees. And I would…as a child, I was bewildered by this. I mean, I was questioning nature. I was always questioning nature, just like I’m always questioning research right now. And I’ll question Dr. Berry, and I will allow him to question me.
You gotta understand something, the people that don’t allow you to question them, they need to be released from the system. And so I used to, I mean, literally, like, like portions of the tree would break and it would be like, “Why can’t I like, tape this together?” Or “why can I sew this together? Can I do this in a way that’s going to make this thing heal.” And I didn’t understand why I didn’t…there was not a yield of a crop or a fruit or a nut. There was not the right way. So the scientific process in me, and the questioning started from a very young age. And I realized that I wanted to learn about brains when I was probably about 10 years old.
But you know what I was told? “You’re really not smart enough to learn about brains.” And so I think I think that screwed me up so bad. I mean, well, what my poor wife who’s actually in the room right now she’s like, “Oh, my God, can you please stop getting degrees?” But what happened is this, man, you can’t do all these systems without clinical curiosity. So all that clinical, all that curiosity as a child turned into an adult, and you look at things and you’re like, “Why? Why is this happening?” And you start getting to a point where like, I don’t really care what the answer is anymore. I need to research it. And I need to read papers. And Dr. Berry, he sends me something. He challenges my entire ideological and theoretical and philosophical components of something that I’ve been entrenched in. And when he does that, you’re just, I think we’re at the age, you know, our Red Bull challenge, we’re getting close to 50. But as you get to that age, you’re just ready to receive it. You know, you’re just like, look, he’s got some cool stuff. How am I going to grow the understanding of these, this pecan tree, this pear tree? For me, as a child, my inner child comes out like, “How…why is this growing fruit? Why is this not growing a pecan? Why is there not cross pollination? Why do things not grow back together?” It’s the “whys.” And when we actually give each other information, and we understand the “whys,” it’s like, man, and it’s like, “dude, I cannot believe I missed that. Or thank you so much.” It’s not a matter of “this is my system. You don’t belong in it.” It’s, “this is our system. We’re building it together.” And I got to tell you in the world of chiropractic medicine, or any other profession, that is almost absolutely unheard of.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I think what you’re talking about…I’ve said before, at some point, like I think one of the most underrated superpowers…I was in fact we were when were we talking about this? The…you know what the official…I want to make sure I don’t misquote this.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Google this man. Google.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, here we go. Do you guys know what the official jack of all trades quote?
Dr. Andrew Wells: Master of nothing?
Dr. Trevor Berry: The functional neurology?
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, no, no, no. It’s not what people think it is. It’s, it says, jack of all, the actual jack of all trades, quote is “Jack of all trades, master of none, though, often better than a master of one.”
Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah. And that’s nice.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And so the thing is this, what you’re talking about there. I look at my dad, my dad’s probably i…he’s like a hero of mine in so many ways. He’s probably one of the smartest men I’ve ever met or known in my life. And I know a lot of people say that about their dads, which is awesome. That’s fantastic. But one of the things that I can identify very clearly about my dad, very similar to you, and what you’re saying is, my dad’s a very curious person. And he’s very well read in a diverse manner. I mean, the coolest thing about my dad that I could say, as a compliment, but just factually, what I’ve seen firsthand is you could literally drop him into just about any type of social situation, pick a topic, and he’d be able to hold his own with that topic, because he’s just so well read in such a far…and it’s because of that just kind of inquisitive curiosity. He’s just genuinely curious. He’s very concerned and interested in people, in things in life, you know. And so I think being curious and being well read in a wide range of different things, is the type of mindset that many should have. But like you said, for biases, for ego for any number of reasons. A lot of people don’t have that.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Dr. Berry, curiosity might have killed the cat. Well, that curiosity. I mean, we’re asking questions that some people don’t really like.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, totally.
Dr. Brandon Brock: But however, patients demand. So there’s a difference between patient demand and the capacity of the doctor to participate.
Dr. Trevor Berry: And I think everyone listening would agree with this. If your heart is in the right place as a health care provider, it’s not about your ego, it’s not about your dogma, it’s not about your belief system. It’s what’s the best thing for the patient outcomes? That’s what Dr. Brock and I, we try and bring just as much information to the table as possible, so that your patient base gets the best outcomes.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think, regardless of where you sit on this, we’ll call it spectrum, right in terms of what’s taking place.
Dr. Andrew Wells: We’re on the spectrum. We’re not quite autistic. But I mean.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Is idiot savant the correct term? No, what I was gonna say is, the thing I would say is, regardless of where you sit, the thing I would ask people to pay attention to or see is this, this is the, this is the thing I would point out. The fact that two years ago, we were not even…there’s no way we could have published this episode of this podcast two years ago. Because of the things we’re …we’re not even like, jumping into it. We’re just like hinting and alluding at certain things that are like “hey, something’s wrong here.” The fact that we can now publish this no problem, it’s, we’re saying we’re in the clear zone. That in and of itself should be concerning to people as as like, you know, you know what I’m saying?
Dr. Brandon Brock: And I know Dr. Berry is gonna chime in on this, but it’s like we have, legit…as a researcher…and listen, I was told that I can’t ask any questions about COVID. And I’m in a PhD program and listen, a PhD program, if you don’t, if you can’t ask questions, you’re screwed, man. Right? There’s, I mean, it’s, it’s not like that’s a bragatorius thing. It’s actually a beating kind of action in a way. But it’s like, you have to be able to ask very difficult questions, because PhDs are the people that are going to solve the basic problems of what we have in science and the world in some, some regard, right? And so all of a sudden, you get this message where it’s like, you can’t ask this question.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Who’s telling you that, by the way?
Dr. Brandon Brock: It’s not a good idea to say.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So basically, whatever authority was there is saying you can’t ask a question.
Dr. Brandon Brock: It’s like this. It’s like, you got to understand this. And it’s not at all a bad thing. I don’t want to be all negative. But it’s like, the medical establishment is trying to set up a system where it’s like, look, the population in general needs to be dealt with. Now, I will say one thing about statistics, there is no such thing as one thing that’s good for everybody, except for maybe oxygen and food, right?
To say that something man made is good for everyone is a statistical misnomer. And I’m not, I don’t want to argue that because that’s just the fact. But in order to stop from allowing people that are intelligent…and this is really how I feel, and this is not anti science, or anti board or anti medicine or pro chiropractic. You know, when you say, “Look, man, this is, to the point, to where you need to quit thinking, and you can’t ask a question, and you can’t quit, you can’t question the statistics. And you can’t buck the system.”
What it does is it brings out the cowboys. And it brings out the people who are just going to say, “You know what, I didn’t grow up…with I grew up with one pear tree and one pecan tree. And it didn’t add up, and neither does this.” And by the way, I don’t think this is all bad. I just think this; studies that typically take 10 years, you did it in seven months. And I understand the need, and the hurry, and the rationale. But it’s just like this, if it happens that way, why can’t we question the system? And why can’t we look at this system and say, this population of people may not be so good, this population of people may respond well, the side effects are this. In other words, do real science instead of just being not centered, yet corner pinned into a perspective of understanding where it’s like, this is the only thing you can project. If you project something different, you’re a heretic. And now you’re just a complete douchebag.
Dr. Trevor Berry: Yes, yeah, I don’t think it was…censorship was the issue. I think I think that media has a really good way of controlling opinion by keeping things arguments, A or B, and there’s no C, D, E, F, or G. And we’re actually, we’re a part of the problem right now, because we’re still talking about is the vaccine effective or not? And, and we’re not asking questions. I think we’re also the solution, the fact that providers like us have been talking about option C, D, E, F, G, and there is some, definitely some censorship happening there. But the problem is, I think most general public isn’t doesn’t have the, the intellectual capability to even think outside. And there may be other options, not just in healthcare, but in anything, politics, we have A or B, religion, very, very binary.
Dr. Brandon Brock: I saw a great interview that was done by a, you know, a Nobel Prize winning immunologist. And he was sitting there…he’s like, in his 80s, okay, and I’m not gonna say names. And he was talking with an interviewer, and there was another immunologist there that was in his late 30s. Okay, and so obviously, one had a career and one didn’t; one was retired. And so they were asking all these questions about this virus and all these things. And this, you know, higher level immunologist, has been there for like 50 or 60 years, he’s saying all these controversial things, and this other immunologist is saying the exact opposite and so the, the person that’s actually doing the interview says, “How can you say these things?” And he goes, “Because I don’t have a career to protect and I got a Nobel Prize. What do you think?”
And this guy just straight up said it. I mean, he didn’t have a single repressive bone in his body and everybody in the room freaked out. And what I thought is; there’s no…free thought is…and I’m really anti censorship, I can just say that part as far as like my own denomination okay? I’m really…I believe in free thought, and if somebody comes across as dumb then this…you know, society in the research community will say this is not correct. But why can’t I ask a question? And he said it brilliantly. He was like…he said it in a way that nobody could really argue he’s like, “I’m a Nobel Prize winner. And I’ve been doing this for 50 years. And I don’t have to worry about my job. What’s your excuses?”
And the guy just melted into his seat. And nobody had, really, a comeback. And so I’m like, ”Why can’t some of us who are just questioning?” It’s not that we’re bucking the system about any of this, lasers, vaccines, disease, it’s all of medicine, medicine is made. Here’s what makes it beautiful. We get to ask a question. And even Dr. Berry, now, we get to challenge each other. It’s not about left versus right, blue versus red, anything. It’s the scientific method, we’re meant to argue, to an extent and that’s the beautification of it. And when you can’t do that anymore, now science has become political. It’s no longer that beautiful argument that is a little bit of a punch in the face, but not enough to really destroy you. And that’s what makes it so great.
Dr. Chad Woolner: On that, note COVID and lasers? Let’s go there.
Dr. Brandon Brock: That’s yours, Dr. Berry.
Dr. Chad Woolner: COVID and lasers, what’s been your experience personally?
Dr. Trevor Berry: Personally, and in the literature supported. The interesting thing, one of the things I love about this topic with low level laser therapy is that it’s been often stated that the violet end of the spectrum is the big antimicrobial part. And without a doubt, that was shown in COVID studies as well. But there are COVID studies with red laser being very effective with in acute phase resolution.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And I’m assuming that those are…those are laser companies in addition to Erchonia, not just Erchonia.
Dr. Trevor Berry: Yes, they are peer reviewed studies, you’ll publish stuff, PubMed stuff. And so I saw it in practice. So it was a big game changer for you know, some of my patients that…my mom was a good example. She was going downhill in a hurry and I got the EVRL Erchonia laser in her hands, and it was a light…My office manager Janelle, same thing, light switch turned on. It was…and I tried the…all the nutrients, zinc and NAC and we, you know, we’re trying all those other methods. But quite often in practice, it was the…the laser that was the thing that got them over the hump.
And the studies show, like, you know, keeping them out of end stage, hospitalization stuff, all the long term things you would think in acute phase stuff, but also now we’re seeing it in long COVID. Like about probably a good 20% of my practice right now is long COVID stuff. And the lasers are the game changer when you look at the the downstream, you know, inflammation process and the central nervous system, you know, gliosis and interleukin activity, and you know, we’re talking today about some of the brainstem dysautonomia, there’s so much of that it’s an inflammation based process. That was one of the big issues with COVID was the cytokine storm, that overshoot of the inflammation process. And lasers, there’s no better tool on the planet designed to knock down or tamp down inflammation and you know, with the T-Ray immuno-resolution process, so that your immune system can react appropriately to that particular pathogen.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, it’s interesting, because I think sometimes, especially if a practitioner is and or a patient is new to laser therapy, they…again, speaking of binary, they expect one of two kinds of outcomes in terms of using laser. So I come in with complaint XYZ, you know, let’s just say COVID, for instance, right? And I laser and I don’t notice…my symptoms immediately gone away or whatever, right? So it’s this very binary, well, that didn’t work for me, right, A or B.
I was at a continuing ed seminar two months ago, three months ago with Dr. Rerucha, in Salt Lake. And he said something that just…was like a little pearl that I stuck in the back of my brain. He said, “If you have a patient who’s getting ready to go into surgery,” he said “you will miss a massive opportunity for them to get exponentially better outcomes in their healing. If you don’t laser them first, right before they go to surgery on that body part, whatever.” And he said, in essence, though, and you guys can clarify this in terms of the specific scientific jargon, but in essence, you’re pre loading the cells to be optimally charged, if you will, for the best possible outcome
Dr. Brandon Brock: …to tolerate torture.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, and so what happened was, we had a patient of ours who’s going in for a knee replacement. It was just…he was…he was ready, he was there, and he was going to do it. And, and I just pulled him aside and I said, “you know, I was at this seminar, I know you’re going to do your knee surgery, this is not for the intent that we’re going to magically fix your knee and prevent the surgery, which would be amazing. That’d be incredible, right?”
But I’m like, “just knowing that you’re going to go through with that. Let’s…let’s do this, just to see if this might possibly improve your outcomes.” And that was it. I really didn’t talk it up much. I’m just like, let’s just give it a shot, you know. And again, in terms of this, A B binary outcome…again, we assume oh, he gets up and “It’s gone. My pain’s gone.” Yeah, that’s what people are expecting. Or the…you know, nothing changed. Well, it didn’t work.
Well what wound up happening was he went through the surgery as…as expected. But what wasn’t expected for him and for his doctor, and for his physical therapist that he was seeing afterwards. He said, “I have beaten all of their projections.” And he said “the only thing that I can point to and all of it” because he’s…he’s overweight, which we’re using the Zerona on him. And he’s lost a ton of weight from that, which has just been super cool too. Which is no doubt helping systemically as well, beyond just the fat loss side of things. But his recovery has just been so incredibly rapid. And he’s doing the other knee and a few…in a month or two. And he’s like, “I’m going to do that way more than just once before because I know that that’ll help.”
And so my whole point in bringing that up, is with COVID, even if it…you know…may or may not kill COVID, right in its tracks or whatever, you know. Which I’m not making that claim here, obviously on this podcast. But I think in a very similar way, no doubt, you can only improve and give your body a much better chance to become a higher level of resilience.
Dr. Brandon Brock: I was gonna say resilience. I don’t know what you have to think about. Resilience is such a broad term. I mean, like, optimizing physiology, giving tissue integrity, we can’t sit here and say that we’re curing COVID any more than we say, can say that we understand everything about COVID vaccines, or COVID disease, or COVID infection, right? We just have to help people live.
And really honestly, that’s what it’s boiled down to, in regards to practitioners, we just want people to live. And when you boil it down even further, you put practitioners in a corner. And most clinicians, when you put their back against the wall, will put their patients in front of themselves. And so everybody’s sitting there saying, “How am I going to help this person live? And what am I going to do?” It doesn’t matter anymore what you do. The statistics disappear, the politics disappear, and you start doing things to keep people alive. Then the questions come afterwards in regards to why what I saw did, why did it work? Or why did it not work? It’s the scientific process that’s been happening since the dawn of drugs, penicillin, vitamins.
Dr. Andrew Wells: We have this thing in our group that healthcare providers should be what we call solutions curators. Meaning not to be so boxed into what this sort of linear thinking of, you know, thinking outside the box of “what else can I do to help patients?”
And I saw you guys do this today, when you’re talking about stacking therapies. Like when you’re using a laser therapy, you can do other things while you’re doing laser therapy, which I thought is really innovative, to even improve the outcomes of what you’re doing, as you know…not that laser therapy alone is bad, but there’s other ways that you can even more ways that you can help your patients.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and even Erchonia, in the training that they give they say like in terms of lasers, there’s kind of a good, better, best in terms of general protocol. They say good if you just laser the area; set it and forget it. Better is involving some type of, you know, motion, or some type of input, that’s where…
Dr. Trevor Berry: …activating the system.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. And then best would be like, against resist…a little bit of resistance included to really kind of further amp up or further engage at a higher level.
Dr. Brandon Brock: And this is a Canadian term; “the bestest.”
Dr. Trevor Berry: We are a central nervous system system. And so why not use lasers in transcranial vagal all those applications we’re talking about today.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I told Dr. Woolner today, I was going to laser his brain while calling him dummy repeatedly over and over again, and see what happened.
Dr. Chad Woolner: We had a practitioner who just got the FX 405, and he was dealing with some reticular symptoms down shoulder and arm. And I was like, “I’m so excited for you to do it.” And so he did it just kind of a point and shoot I’m like, “and what happened?” And he said, “I’ve done it three times. And I haven’t noticed any difference.” And so immediately I’m thinking and maybe you guys can chime in on this, we can use this as kind of an impromptu little case here. But I told him active…get some active motion. I said laser the brain and or the brain stem area. Activate that by just getting some motion in there and or a little bit of resistance. Your thoughts on that?
Dr. Brandon Brock: Well, we’ll circle around Dr. Berry, He’ll have good information about this. But I mean, my first thought is, “Okay, look, we do our top down approach.” Maybe it’s brain, maybe it’s functional. But maybe, just maybe there’s a disc herniation that is so bad that…I mean we have to go in conventional medicine say this, people get radiculopathies. They get active denervation. Their EMG is positive, you know, for active denervation, fibrillations, and you know, you know positive you know…look, it just comes down to the point where it’s not a good deal at the segmental level, right?
Dr. Trevor Berry: But even with that said, you’d be amazed at how many of these cases we have are discogenic, that kind of thing. That even with that, that obvious sign on MRI, you still do those upstream and downstream things we were teaching today’s them and it saves them they don’t have to go in their surgery. A good example…we brought a doctor up on stage today with her shoulder situation. She had more signs of dystonia based shoulder dysfunction and things like that.
We were teaching all the way from brain downstream to the shoulder tissue, but we could have stopped at parietal and cerebellar laser applications and she probably would have been almost good to go based on that without even touching the shoulder. So to your case that you were talking about so many these things are centrally mediated, you know, situations that the brain has maladapted.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So for…because this has been somewhat of a surprising turn of events with The Laser Light Show podcast is I’ve been getting a lot of patients and/or I’ve heard from other practitioners, their patients are listening to this. So you’ve thrown out some terms there, that…and I’ll be honest to some of the terms are above me too. Anyway, so…
Dr. Brandon Brock: Above us too.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Because the laser dummy therapy is working
Dr. Trevor Berry: Well, I’m just…I say it with a Canadian accent with conviction, so they have to believe me.
Dr. Brandon Brock: And I say it with a Texan accent so it can be completely wrong.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So for patients who are listening to this, what would that look like in layman’s terms in terms of what that therapy would look like? And then the practitioner’s like, “okay, I can do that.” And the rationale in terms of…because you talked about…did you see neuroplastic changes that have taken place in the brain, maladaptive?
Dr. Brandon Brock: So say, I have a shoulder injury? Yeah, you’ve got local tissue damage or inflammation, things like that, but what really makes the situation, say chronic and not responsive to typical therapies, is that the central nervous system starts to adapt to that injury and makes changes in how the muscles move at the muscles may contract…
Dr. Chad Woolner: And you’re talking physical map…remapping of the brain territory?
Dr. Brandon Brock: It’ll do it. It’s very plastic. Now screwed up, now screwed up, man. And so you have your your body will show it and Dr. Berry….
Dr. Chad Woolner: I don’t want to take you off track. But real quick. Have you guys read that book by David Eagleman, Livewired?
Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Great.
Dr. Brandon Brock: I have not. I don’t read a whole lot of books.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I know you’re you’re you’ve got a fair excuse as to why you’re…
Dr. Trevor Berry: Not enough time on his hands.
Dr. Brandon Brock: I read the The Cat and the Hat when I’m in the corner, crying.
Dr. Trevor Berry: So I think for the…all levels of the audience listening is that, yeah, you can do some amazing things, you might be seeing the best physical therapist, the best chiropractor on the planet doing awesome work on the shoulder. But if that brain has maladapted to compensate for that, just like a bad golf swing, or something that becomes ingrained in the central nervous system. Until you change your brain firing…in the brain patterns. That’s what can sometimes get those patients over the hump, when it’s…when it’s beyond just the point and shoot, set it and forget it. Usually it’s because of a brain maladaptation. So that’s why we teach doctors to do brain based laser exposure. Combine that with the physical therapy, with the range of motion, the stretching and things like that. And quite often, that’s what gets them over that final hurdle.
Dr. Andrew Wells: And because have you guys started to dabble in the world of virtual reality as a therapy?
Dr. Trevor Berry: Yes, we have.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Because that’s kind of like, that’s where my mind went with this is is is that…
Dr. Brandon Brock: There will…eventually will be artificial intelligence, brain implants. And basically, there’ll be people like us looking at neuroplasticity and saying, “Look, this is incorrect. Let’s use a chip that my neighbor’s 10 year old can hack into.” I mean, it’s all very scary, man. I gotta be honest with you.
Every time we say that can’t happen. We exceed that. And so I mean, let me let me go back to the dystonia, our possible dystonia patient today. I mean, she didn’t present with a clear shoulder injury, she didn’t present with a clear neck injury. She had multiple accidents, God knows where the problem is. She doesn’t have a positive MRI, she doesn’t have a clear dermatomal or, you know, cutaneous distribution of sensory loss. So you’re sitting there, and you’re like, “this may be cortical.”
And then when you watch her move, you see movement patterns that just aren’t in line with normal movement. The scapular rotation versus the glenohumeral joint. And if you are trained in biomechanics, you look at and you’re like, “This isn’t right. And if it flares up, it’s going to be even really not right.” So what did we do? I mean, did we change? What do we do? Do we retrain her movement patterns? Did we just decrease pain? Was it a placebo saying you’re gonna be better? I really think that we activated the brain to understand where that joint is, and we moved it in patterns, where her brain now understands, this is the new pattern, not the basal ganglia.
Dr. Trevor Berry:“Oh, this is how I’m supposed to move. This is how I’m supposed to be positioned. This is how the muscles are supposed to be contracting and relaxing and that kind of stuff.”
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think anybody can understand that.
Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, you know, you have to change central nervous system beyond the…you know, she, yeah, for sure. She may have had some rotator cuff, you know, inflammation, those kind of things. But that was not the big picture in this case.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah. And you say anybody can understand that and I agree with you, but no. I mean, the theory, the theory is great. However, the practice of medicine is, is this efficiency and monetary? We spent, we spent 15 minutes on her? 15 minutes. But you have to be efficient. Nobody else is going to I mean, not say nobody very few people in medicine, they’re going to do this. They’re gonna look at her and say, “You know what? You need a muscle relaxer, you need an NSAID, you might need an antidepressant. If this is going on, you know, we’ll maybe even get crazy and send you to some acupuncture.”
But we look at and we’re like, “this is just a bad movement pattern. The brain is not that great if we just reestablish that. We can make a big…” We did it in 10 minutes today. Yeah. And I think that, again, how many times have we asked questions? How many times have we answered questions from a clinical perspective, and just moved forward with application.
Dr. Trevor Berry: All healthcare providers…there’s nothing stopping…whether you’re doing massage therapy, whether you’re doing acupuncture, naturopath. Every one of us can be doing what we were talking about today. And she talked about how the whole…not just her shoulder movement, but the whole, the whole left side of her body, her thorax, everything, felt better, felt more relaxed, and that thing. Because you take a neuro centric brain based approach to that. And that’s why every…that’s why I say it half jokingly, but half serious is that even if you’re not a board certified neurologist, don’t worry about it. Everyone can turn a laser on and point it at the brain. I don’t care what your level of training is, you don’t have to be…have a doctor in front of your name, you can point a laser at different areas of the brain, they’re gonna facilitate the well being of that joint function.
Dr. Brandon Brock: It’s not neurosurgery, it’s neural activation without an inappropriate dose.
Dr. Trevor Berry: That’s the key, you got to have the right device. And when you’re treating brain, you cannot be using high powered lasers. That’s why you were attached to the Erchonia horse. You guys have attached yourself. Like the scientific evidence that goes back to this is why, you know, brought Dr. Brock on board is that the evidence backs low dose, low level, lower wavelength, higher energy with lower wavelength lasers. That’s where the magic happens. And that’s why we’re here today.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, I wasn’t fooled by the heat. I wasn’t fooled by the…I mean, initially, like my, my mom had a dupuytren’s contracture, and I used a, like a class 4, like the kind of laser that could burn a hole in the wall. And I treated her with it and literally all the tissue started to make this liquefactive, like exudate into the area. And I was like, now that I look back on it, I’m like, “Oh, my God!” Like the fact that something can change tissue that quickly, and she didn’t get any better. And it was so profoundly impacting the tissue. And the fact that basically, a team from NASA had to come out and teach me how to use this thing without destroying the world. I mean, it was just crazy. And I think back to them, like it didn’t, it didn’t do anything different other than just over- and I hate to use the word dose, but I mean, I’m gonna use it, it just overdosed the patient, they didn’t need that amount of photonic energy to get the job done.
Dr. Trevor Berry: There’s a time and a place for a blade of lasers that are high powered, lasering in your brain is not that time.
Dr. Brandon Brock: So if I’m getting LASIK surgery, that’s a different laser than musculoskeletal. And the people that develop, you know, really good laser researchers, they understand laser physiology. And they’ll sit…they’ll tell you, “what you guys are trying to achieve with the mitochondria and the electron transport chain is not what we’re trying to do with cauterizing soft tissue or blowing up somebody…you know, a satellite in space.” That, there’s a gigantic range between laser physiology. And it just, it cracks…Dr. Berry, we sit down and we’re like “man, the laser that causes the most symptoms and if they can survive through it, that’s the best laser right?”
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, and we caught that on the questions after today’s seminar. Even though you guys talked about it’s not about power, it’s not about penetration. Yet you still get from our profession even though like it’s been said 100,000 times it’s not about power imprint, its wavelength.
Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah. Wavelength, low dose, it’s the energy of the photon, and it doesn’t take many photons to create that energy and get those that you know the atomic, the electrons to go to higher levels of Valence activity that creates that energy model.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Was it you that had said like when you step out into the sun, you don’t want your kidneys and liver and everything else getting sunburned…
Dr. Trevor Berry: The liver’s not gonna get sunburned.
Dr. Brandon Brock: I mean, you got to look at it and say, “Okay, what is the sun doing?” I mean, it, it’s at a certain wavelength, it’s at a certain power, it’s going to be very superficial. It’s again, vibrating that superficial water component, and it’s…it lowers the depth of penetration, which is why my white skin gets burned and my liver doesn’t. Thank goodness. That’s the way it is. We have to change what we’re doing with low level laser therapy so that it actually does create a superficial component, which changes the subcutaneous components, which gets to the mitochondria, and changes the energy production in the cells and the tissues that we’re trying to make healthy. And that’s not an easy process that took…when you look at the Shanks family, it took years to get to the point to where they were actually satisfied with where we’re at today. And this…
Dr. Trevor Berry: …they tried the high powered models and it didn’t work. That’s why they backed off of that. We want photochemical, not photo thermal reaction. The whole point of any other 3B and 4 laser is to heat tissue topically. Because those types of wavelengths, the longer wavelengths with higher power, all it does is vibrate molecules, the water molecules in the dermis area. Yeah. And to create that topical, that’s why they have their FDA clearance.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and it’s interesting you say that because we had prior to getting the Erchonia lasers in our clinic, we had a class 4 laser. We loved it, it was it was awesome. I thought it was the coolest thing ever
Dr. Andrew Wells: Can blow satellites. The thing is, you cut off arms.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And the thing is, now though is is that the thing now that I look at it is there are times when I still want to use it, but it’s times when I want some warmth. That’s really the…
Dr. Brandon Brock: Just get a hot pack.
Dr. Trevor Berry: A very expensive hotpack. A $40,000 hotpack.
It’s really, I mean, people are so stuck on sensation rather than function. I mean, in that time, though, to be quite honest, we…the only problem we run into is this: “I’m not I’m not feeling a whole lot of what you’re doing. But you see the end results.” But yes, patients have to be patient, right?
Dr. Andrew Wells: We interviewed a veterinarian. And that was one of the cool thing you said about animals is there’s no placebo effect. The animals can’t feel it. And there’s no they don’t know that anything’s even happening, but they get better. And humans know they have that, that thought like, “not feeling it. It’s not tingling.”
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, it’s all fun games till you liquefy a parakeet’s liver, you know.
Dr. Trevor Berry: We just went off the rails. We’re probably getting to the end of the podcast.
Dr. Brandon Brock: I mean, it’s been but seriously, it’s like, and I will say, you know, I mean, we are trying to get into the veterinarian world, my brother’s a vet, right. And he’s really good horse surgeon. And they they’re doing everything I can to keep things sterile, to keep things healthy to heal. And it’s very easy to come in and say, “look, the animal is going to experience this.” The great thing about veterinary lasers is this. They’re not going to go…the dogs not gonna look at you and go, “I can’t feel the-“. I mean, you just need to understand the physiology and the photo chemistry behind it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I want to hear how the dog sounds again.
Dr. Brandon Brock: I don’t know if I drink enough to do that. But and it’s like this, really seriously. Living organisms are living organisms. Let’s not burn them. Let’s not denature proteins, and let’s give them the right…
Dr. Trevor Berry: Do no harm. Our number one job.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Quote on quote, dose.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So as we’re I know, this podcast is probably going along, which is great.
Dr. Brandon Brock: That’s awesome.
Dr. Andrew Wells: One thing I want to ask and I’m always curious about I think our docs will be curious about; we’re talking about brain health. We talked a lot about neurology today. What do you guys do at home? I…just looking at you guys, I can tell that you that you’re living the way you preach, and what you preach. But what, what are you guys doing at home in terms of like morning routines, evening routines, to maintain brain health so that you don’t end up like most Americans?
Dr. Chad Woolner: But before we go even into that, can you share with them this statistic that you started off with that, like got everybody’s attention? Right out the gates?
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah. A scary…Yeah, it’s…
Dr. Trevor Berry: It’s pretty alarming that the statistics show that we’re now breaching that 50% of Americans are going to die with some sort of neurodegenerative dementia type of diagnosis.
Dr. Brandon Brock: And what if you’re born…50% are autistic. So then who’s in the middle? I mean, you got to look at this and say, “really, who’s going to actually pay for all that?” And I’m, this is not an insensitive thing. Who’s gonna pay for all this shit? who’s gonna be left? And it’s, it’s, I mean, I got daughters, and he’s got daughters, and they’re gonna have kids and we’re looking at this and we’re like, “What the hell, man? I mean, literally, what the hell is gonna happen to us and them?
Dr. Chad Woolner: I felt very much like when you said that you could feel a sense of urgency, a sense of mission and purpose. Like somebody needs to seriously like…without sounding overly dramatic, sound an alarm on this because like, this needs to become like…
Dr. Trevor Berry: Of the causes of death. Yeah, it’s the one that skyrockets. And and if you said to me, Dr. Berry, “What would be your number one monotherapy that you’re going to attack neurodegeneration with?” Without a doubt it’s low level laser therapy. You do not take that out of my practice. You can take anything else out of my repertoire, do not take my Erchonia low level laser…
Dr. Chad Woolner: I didn’t want to sidetrack against Andrew’s question there. But I just wanted to kind of frame that around why that…why what you’re doing to protect your brains? What are the things you’re doing?
Dr. Andrew Wells: Actually, Chad, you brought up a good point. And this I was thinking about this in the seminar today, there was a doctor there who had a young family. She had some of her kids running in, and I have young boys at home. And I’m thinking, when I heard that stat, I’m like, one of the things I’m thinking of as a parent, for my boys, is whoever they decide to marry at a certain point, one of the big things I think they have to think about is how healthy are they like, 20 years old? Yeah. 25-30 years old?
Dr. Brandon Brock: Those are my patients. Yeah, that…like they showed up and it was hard to recognize them. I mean, I mean, to kind of bring this to a conclusion. I mean, you talk about laser, you talk about…I mean…we talk about so much stuff. I mean, it’s like what do we do to get our brains in the right mindset? You know, we have relationships, I’ve got a good relationship with Dr. Berry, I’ve got a good relationship at work, I have a beautiful, wonderful wife that puts me in the right mindset. So there’s so many metrics to this thing. I mean, we look at lasers is one component of…I mean… And I said today you can’t out nutrition, a bad diet, like supplement wise, right?
It’s all about balance. You got some exercise, you got some supplements, you got some nutrition, you have a laser. Maybe if you need medication, you have it, you have a good relationship. And what you’re trying to do…and we we use the word hormesis, flippantly. But in all reality, your your world is balanced man. And we you hear people say this all the time from Tony Robbins all the way down to us, right? Your life has to be balanced.
And so I would say this; have good relationships, don’t have stress. Have something that can activate your brain, and not deactivate it. Find out what your weak spots are, and fulfill them in nutrition. Look at your weak spots and diet, have somebody that can help you. If you’re not exercising, get off your ass and do something. If you don’t have relationships, make some friends with people that you can actually adhere to and relate to. And if you do those things, you know what you’re doing your best. And that’s all we can do. Because there’s a Z for everybody, right? A to Z. It’s what is your journey from A to Z gonna be like?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and I think in all of that everything you’re saying I think makes perfect sense to people and that’s all stuff that’s fairly attainable. I think that kind of ace up the sleeve that we’re talking about is that laser. You know, that, that’s that kind of…
Dr. Trevor Berry: And that’s what I was gonna answer like, I do live a fairly healthy lifestyle. I do yoga, I do…I exercise high intensity interval training, I do shunt stabilization exercises. I’ve…I’ve gotten out of bad relationships. You know, I’ve done a lot of this stuff.
I do fasting, I eat mostly a paleo keto type diet, Mediterranean modified, you’ll…I call it the Mother Nature, diet, things like that. But I also eat more bacon than anyone I know, in the planet. I’ll have a glass of red wine, that kind of stuff. So I have to do certain things to offset that. And that’s one of the things that I’m a good test subject for why I take a laser home every night. I have one in my hotel room right now. I have my EVRL because we had some wine and I know our steak at dinner tonight was a lot of grass fed grass finished.
Dr. Brandon Brock: He’s going to open his clothes right now you just can’t see.
Dr. Trevor Berry: So what I do, that’s my great equalizer. Nobody is perfect on this planet. Nobody in the United States is going to live the cleanest diet, exercise. You know, I get it. There’s a few people, you know, there’s the exceptions, but most Americans are not living that lifestyle. So what I like about the laser, it’s the great equalizer.
Dr. Brandon Brock: That’s a good, that’s a good, that’s a good way of saying it, man.
Dr. Trevor Berry: And that’s that’s how I’m gonna you know, when you ask that question about what I do. Yeah, I do meditation and stress reduction and prayer and like all these other things that that that are going to be beneficial. But I also am going to beat myself up once in a while. And that’s where the laser comes in to offset that.
Dr. Brandon Brock: And we’re all going to listen…here’s success. And then this is a true stat. If your patients doing 80% of what you asked, that is extremely successful, which means this. That laser and a few other things help pick up the damage from that 20, or 10, or 30%
Dr. Trevor Berry: …or in some Americans 90%
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yes. Like, if I tried to treat Trevor, he tried to treat me it’s like we built we’d be like “okay, whatever, yeah.” But I mean, we’ve…we’ve both realized through hard knocks, we have to do something or else we’re going to become extinct on this planet faster than we should be. And so we both have girls, which is…you know, for us, more important than ourselves. We both…you know, have people that are important in our lives. And for some reason whenever you…got I don’t know this may sound wrong, but we got daughters. We have to be around for them. We have to be role models. We have to protect them. It’s not that if we didn’t have son….you know, I don’t know if you have any boys but it’s like…
Dr. Trevor Berry: Not that I know of.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, no, no franchises that he knows of. But it’s like, you have to be there and support and be healthy and be…be able to have some sort of resilience and retention and, and strength to actually be able to do things that you need to do. And but we all have that. We’re just all trying to get through this race.
But it’s like, you have to be there and support and be healthy and be…be able to have some sort of resilience and retention and, and strength to actually be able to do things that you need to do. And but we all have that. We’re just all trying to get through this race.
Dr. Trevor Berry: And that’s the last statement I think that Dr. Brock and I would agree on in this is that you invest in a low level laser with Erchonia, for your loved ones, your benefactors. And yourselves, you invest in your own brain so that we can all be the best health care providers, because we have so many people that were put on this planet to help. And so here we are. Low level laser is one of the best ways that I’m going to maintain and protect my brain, so I can be doing the best I can for not just my daughters, but for my patient base, for my loved ones.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well and the thing that I would end with…kind of full circle on all of this is going back to kind of how you opened today’s seminar. This, this idea that that’s the alarm that’s being sounded and those who are listening to this podcast right now, something so stupidly simple that each one of them can do to help in this process is share this podcast with as far and wide as you can truly share this podcast. Because, Because…
Dr. Trevor Berry: Go Viral.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I know seriously, because here’s the deal. This is how this becomes mainstream, if this tool is as powerful as we’re claiming it is, which it is. This needs to become mainstream, it needs to become something that is not this obscure, like “Oh, I heard that there’s this doctor that has one of these. And maybe if I searched the zip code, I can drive 50 miles to go see this, you know, random,” or that you feel like you’ve got to like fly out to Dr. Berry, which I’m sure he’d love to see…he gets people flying out, or Dr. Brock, you guys get people flying out from all over the country to see you guys. That’s awesome. But you guys are only two doctors, right? And we’re talking about a country with…
Dr. Trevor Berry: And that’s why we’re here.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, exactly. And so, so for those listening, that is the kind of plea that we would have with you is, share this as far and wide on social media as you can if you’re, if you’re listening to this, if this has resonated with you, share this with other practitioners, share this with your patients. And for those practitioners who are listening, get to an Erchonia seminar. Like, seriously, like, when you, when you come like it’s, it’s so compelling is so so compelling. Like, it’s just the coolest that we’ve connected with Erchonia.
Dr. Brandon Brock: Well, I would just add this, there’s a you know, you talk about finding a laser practitioner, but there’s so many people that are just disenfranchised. And so many people that are chronically ill, and so many people that have been to the Mayo Clinic, or the Cleveland Clinic, or they’ve spent $100,000, and doctors. And there’s just nobody that can help them. I mean, I see these people all the time. And it is difficult for us as practitioners because there’s a lot of stress to help people out. But you know, look, man, there’s a hierarchy. And we have to be able to do something for people that are at the end of their rope, or people that are at the beginning of their rope. And we’re just trying to get to the point to where we can keep, listen, science and treatment can keep up with pathological progression. And if we can do that, we’re better off as a civilization. If we can’t do it, we’re gonna get swallowed.
And look, the reason why I love Dr. Berry so much is because he pushes me to keep up with pathological progression. Pathological progression is my therapeutic modalities, keeping up with how sick we’re becoming. And we’re becoming sick as a society with stress and with infectious disease, and with deterioration. And with you name it. Can we keep up with it and become integrated? And can we get along and we can talk about theoretical advancement in research, and get over ourselves and collaborate and I hope that’s what gets through. I hope that’s what makes this podcast go viral.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, no. I agree. 100%
Dr. Andrew Wells: We have to do more Late Night with Dr. Berry and Dr. Brock. This was fun. Truly enjoyed it you guys.
Dr. Trevor Berry: We’re honored to be here with you and you guys to get that message out. You guys are doing such a service to humankind and we’re very blessed to have you here.
Dr. Brandon Brock: And nobody knows we’re in our underwear right now.
Dr. Andrew Wells: This podcast happened by the way, Chad and I are laying our beds. I was getting ready to go to bed. Oh, you heard a (knocking sounds) “You ready to do a podcast?”
Dr. Chad Woolner: Funny. So while while Chad and Andrew are in their jammies. Trevor and Brandon are in suits and ties. Yeah, for the record.
Dr. Brandon Brock: The shoes hurt. They’re on my feet for so long.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So we’ll let these fellas get to bed. We got another day of exciting instruction tomorrow that we’re really looking forward to. Again, docs and patients alike who have been listening to this. Share this with those that you feel could benefit. We sure appreciate Dr. Trevor Berry and Dr. Brandon Brock being here with us.
We appreciate your guys’ time, we appreciate everything you’re doing in teaching everything that Erchonia is doing and how you guys are fitting into all this. It’s just absolutely incredible. And it’s been really exciting to see this and really looking forward to you…know how this particular episode ages a year from now, five years from now. You know, and what advancements are around the corner. Because I know that Erchonia is much like you guys, which is why I think you guys are so integrated with them. They’re constantly keeping their finger on the pulse of research and constantly investing so much time and energy and resources and money into, into advanced research.
Dr. Trevor Berry: No other company, no other company is doing what’s they are.
Dr. Brandon Brock: So exciting. And you got us wrong.
We walked in, and we listened. We didn’t have a script. I mean, yeah, we just walked in to start talking, which is a little bit unusual, because I mean, we have to be scripted to an extent. But yeah, it’s like this you got us and what we really think and I don’t know. It’s kind of, it’s kind of a beautiful
Dr. Trevor Berry: Long form things are beautiful. Thank you guys, for…
Dr. Brandon Brock: You guys are great. We appreciate it.
Dr. Trevor Berry: Now we’ll see you first thing tomorrow.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Bright and early. All right. We’re off to bed, everybody. And yeah, we’re looking forward to more. So look forward to sharing more with you guys on the next podcast. We’ll talk to you guys later. Rock’n’roll.
Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchnoia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.
In this episode, we talk with rising boxing star Eli Garcia and Dr. Marc Burdorf on how lasers have become an integral part of Eli’s training protocol. Some have questioned whether or not laser therapy should be banned in professional sports due to its performance-enhancing effects. Dr. Burdorf discusses the main reasons behind why Eli gets laser therapy and why Eli considers it a must-have part of his routine.
https://instagram.com/_elijahgarcia_?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells. And this is Episode 21 of The Laser Light Show and on today’s episode we have with us, Dr. Marc Burdorf and Elijah Garcia, an up-and-coming incredible boxer. We’re going to be talking with him about his career about the role that low level laser has been playing in his experiences. So we’re really excited to get into this one. So let’s get to it.
Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
All right, everybody. Welcome to the show. We are so excited. This is gonna be an awesome episode, because we have the opportunity to chat with our good friend Dr. Marc Burdorf and Elijah Garcia. Thank you guys both so much for taking time out of your schedule to be here with us. We’re super excited to chat. And for those who can’t see, we also have another guest with us again. Name again, Dr. Marc.
Dr. Marc Burdorf: This is Dr. Duke.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Dr. Duke. we have Dr. Duke with us.
Dr. Andrew Wells: And Duke is a I don’t know of born that way, but as a cat with no hair.You think of Austin Powers and Dr. Evil that’s what that looks like which actually makes Dr. Marc Dr. Evil.
Dr. Marc Burdorf: That’s one way of looking at it. He is a Canadian Sphinx and he will be two years old this October 11. Actually, not only has all my professional athletes like Eli benefited from laser but Duke decided to eat a couple year plugs last December 7 to celebrate Pearl Harbor and he cost me about five grand to an emergency surgery. And we lasered him six times in the first 24 hours after the surgery. And his incisions were completely healed in five days for any veterinarians out there that are considering getting lasers in their practice. It’s a game changer.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Wow. We actually just interviewed a veterinarian. It’s such a cool story. And actually we have slated at some point not on the calendar yet but an interview with Duke and you to talk about his healing process. But today, more importantly, we have an awesome opportunity to interview Eli Garcia. And Eli, you’ve been described as the next Oscar De La Hoya. How does that make you feel to hear that?
Eli Garcia: It’s cool. You know Oscar De La Hoya is a multi- world champion, and an Olympian, and he’s one of the best ever. But they kinda mean something different. It’s good. You have all the best.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I remember him. I was not a big boxing fan. But back when they’d had boxing on TV. I was I don’t know how old I was. I was young. But I remember. I remember seeing Oscar De La Jolla and my dad watching the fights and not knowing much about boxing. I just knew that he was amazing. And always won. And yeah, so that’s got to be humbling. And if it were me, I think that would make me feel a little bit nervous. But what an honor, what an honor to be compared to somebody who’s done amazing things in boxing, so maybe, maybe a good place to start. Can you tell us a little bit about your family history and how you actually got into boxing?
Eli Garcia: Yeah, so it or so on both sides of the family, you know, there’s been boxing. And my grandpa, he grew up in Soledad, California more like, you know, it’s kind of out there. And so where he grew up, you know, there’s lots of lots of boxing around. So he started fighting. And then he had my dad. My dad had about 150 amateur fights. He fought for the US Olympic team. He fought for the Mexico Olympic team. And then on my mom’s side of the family, my you know, my other grandpa he also fought and then my mom’s brother, his name’s Jesus Gonzales. You know he’s a familiar name out here. He was on the US Olympic team as well, the same year as my dad. And so you know, like, he’s won a couple of titles, Pro. And then you know, now it’s my turn. It’s my turn to carry on legacy.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I’m just picturing. I’m picturing your dad’s family and your mom’s family, like plotting to get together and have a marriage and create the greatest boxer of all time. Apparently, you! This is a purely genetic experience, and it’s working apparently. That’s awesome. Now, so was this with your dad, and your mom, were they training you in boxing when you were a little? Like I do this. I have two young boys and I have no idea how to boxer train, but we like to punch each other’s hands and things like that. Were you guys doing that at a young age?
Eli Garcia: My dad didn’t want me to fight at all. He tried to keep me away from boxing. So I grew up playing like, since I was like four years old, three years old, I played T ball. I played baseball, football. I played soccer, played basketball. But I was mostly good at…I wrestled for a little bit too. But I was mostly good at you know, football and baseball. And then, you know, I started boxing. I was 12 years old. For my first fight, I was 13. And then, you know, I won nationals a couple times 14, 15 and 16. So, you know, know why he didn’t want me to fight. It was clearly not for everybody.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So yeah, what do you mean? What do you mean by that? Yeah. When you say, now, you know why he didn’t want that. Tell us about that.
Eli Garcia: That’s hard work. You know, you have to dedicate your life to it. You know, I didn’t I didn’t graduate high school. You know, I don’t have a Gantt like, I don’t have a backup plan. And you know, that’s all I got full time. I workout three times, twice, three times, maybe two times a day, you know, every day. You know, this is my job. You know? I work out every day. You know, I stay in shape. I eat good. What we’re here at the doctor’s with Dr. Marc is a lifestyle. You have to make it a lifestyle. You want to go somewhere with it.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I gotta imagine, like, yeah, I have to imagine saying that. Like, obviously, you’re rising to the, to that pressure you put on yourself and I’m sure external pressure that you feel not having a plan B. And it’s interesting you say that? Having known a lot of successful people in the business world, in the health space, in athletics. It’s interesting that across that spectrum, you find a lot of people who achieve success never had a B plan and they had it like, burn the boats. This is what I’m doing. No one’s gonna stop me from reaching my goal and that’s typically the people who become like Oscar De La Hoya.
Eli Garcia: Yes, that’s the way it is, man. Like if you have to be like mentally mentally you know, Dr. Marc’s helped a lot with it. But mentally you have to be strong. Mentally you have to see yourself and that’s what I do. And it’s worked for me and I’m not going to quit so I feel like people will say oh, I needed a backup, I need a backup plan well, that’s that’s cool. You know, maybe you do but, I’m determined.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And your and your record so far, you’re 11 and 0, and 0. And you…all of those wins have been all by knockout correct?
Eli Garcia: No, I’m 11 and 0, but nine knockouts. You know, the fights I didn’t knock the people, or the fights that I didn’t knock the guys out, you know, weren’t my best camps. Like the last fight, you know, last fight is kind of tough. I was a little heavy coming into camp, you know, so I lose a couple pounds, I was more focused on losing weight. I didn’t get the knockout in that fight. And then the other fight I didn’t get a knockout and I fought the guy who was about 12 pounds heavier than me. So it is what it is. It’s still a learning experience. You know, I wouldn’t, I wouldn’t change it, you know? Yeah.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I’m just curious about how your dad feels now that you are where you are? Has he? Do you feel like he’s his opinion of you, wanting to be a boxer has changed.
Eli Garcia: You know, he always tells me like, we’ve gone so far, it’ll have gone so far, you know, every day, for years, every day, you know, we spend time together and he says, you know, like, the end of the day, like if you don’t want to do this, you know, like, I’m not going to be mad because the goal is time we spent together all these memories we have you know. And but but yeah, I’m sure he’d want these things. Of course, he wants to see me become successful in boxing, you know, so you want to see me do something he’s never done before.
Dr. Andrew Wells: You know, as long as your dad sounds like an incredible guy, I’m sure it’s I’m sure that makes you feel good to have support either way, that’s not many. Not everybody gets that opportunity. And that’s, that’s pretty cool, man.
Eli Garcia: Yeah, very lucky.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So I’m, I’m curious in this whole process to…this is kind of a two part question. What are these fight camps look like? Kind of gives us an insight as to what the preparation looks like. And then kind of along those lines, how have lasers kind of fit into this whole model? Because I’m assuming that lasers are definitely a part of both pre fight preparation as well as post fight. Maybe give us a rundown of that. And then we can kind of dive a little bit deeper into the laser side of things.
Eli Garcia: Yeah, all right. So you know camps…we usually want our camps to be five, five to six weeks long. You know, so my dad’s my nutritionist. He writes my meals down. I eat like, every two hours, right. So I have a very strict diet. I’m working out three days, three days a week, I’m doing strength conditioning Monday, Wednesday, Fridays. And right after strength conditioning, I’m over here with Dr. Marc, either Mondays, and Fridays, or just Mondays.
And, you know, I lift my weights, I do my cardio or whatever I do. And then I’m over here immediately right afterwards, so you’re treated, whether it’s I know, he’s popping my backs, or he’s treating me with lasers to help me get rid of my soreness or, or whatever, whatever the case may be. And, you know, I do that for six weeks straight. Tuesdays and Thursdays. Saturdays, those are my sparring days and my sprint team days. You know, and, you know, it’s been a long process, but over the five, six fights, we’ve done it, we’ve, we’ve had no problems like mentally and physically. I mean, my dad, you will see, you know, like, Dr. Marc is a game changer, a hundred percent, you know, like mentally and physically. It just helps me out way more.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I would imagine that that is a really kind of almost like Razor’s Edge type balancing act that you’ve got to kind of accomplish in terms of training at the highest possible level without overtraining, right. And I’m assuming that that can sometimes be a hard balance to find. And I can only assume that kind of Dr. Marc’s role, and particularly since we’re talking about lasers, here, the lasers can really help with some of that balancing act, whether it be that perhaps maybe you’re trained a little bit too hard, and maybe push the envelope a little bit too much. Lasers can help maybe, you know, assist in some of that, and or, obviously, boxing being a fairly heavy contact sport, injuries happen, things like that, I’m assuming that lasers can kind of help in that, maybe talk a little bit about some of your experiences, in terms of how the lasers have kind of assisted in some of these areas.
Eli Garcia: You know, it’s the lasers, and the brain exercises that he helps with, you know, mentally it clears it out, you know, mentally it keeps me strong, like, you know. I spar three days a week, you know, I try not to get hit. Last thing I want to know, on the days to get hit, you know, it’s good to come in here and get the laser check out on my head, because mentally just helps me feel the difference. And, you know, I come in sore afternoons and hard sprints.
Dr. Marc Burdorf: One of the things we do as we like to call it stacking therapies together. So well, sometimes you haven’t done an eye exercise. Or a memory exercise of some sort while we’re doing brain laser with them. And, you know, it’s just like you said, I mean, it’s anything you can do, especially, we use something called Focus Builder app and give accolades to Cedric Manuel, he’s a cardiologist in North Carolina that’s been around for about a decade with this therapy. And I’ve been using it quite extensively the last five years. And it’s just these eye exercises, it’s, it’s kind of like you put dots on the wall and do it. But if you use the Focus Builder app… those dots in the wall are like a Model T and the Focus Builder app is kind of like a McLaren or Ferrari, it turbo charges you. And that’s a big thing. There’s a little app on there, too. We can measure hand-eye coordination. Obviously, this guy can destroy anybody just because he’s that good. And it says practice makes perfect. And that’s why he is as great as he is and will continue to get better.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So this is like that’s, that’s a hold on one second, I was just gonna ask. So this Focus Builder is both not only kind of a therapy tool, but also kind of a somewhat diagnostic end or or objective tracking tool. Correct. Am I understanding that correctly?
Dr. Marc Burdorf: Actually, no, I use something called Right Eye which is actually an eye tracking software. And I’ll have had it for four years in October and I use it on everybody but especially for my combat athletes like Eli. The Right Eye measures your eye speeds as far as pursuits to COD’s, fixations. And as well as I hand-eye coordination, and then the Focus Builder app is…we put it on iPads. And actually I have, I’ve got a dozen iPads I rent out to all my patients for the first month. And that sells them on them buying the product app itself to put on their own iPads moving forward. Okay, but it’s just it’s, it’s a big game changing thing is we have to stack everything together, you gotta make this stuff quick and fun. Otherwise, people don’t do it. So we can be doing laser while we’re doing an eye exercise just to get it done faster.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I’ve always wanted to ask this question of a pro boxer. When I watch boxing or fighting on TV, I can’t see what’s going on. It’s kind of like when I watch hockey, my eye isn’t fast enough to see where the puck is going. Like, if I remember, years ago, they added that little tracking light when you win for hockey games so that people like me can see where the pucks are going. And well, boxing like, I don’t know, anything’s happened until the crowd is yelling and cheering because I can’t see it that fast. And so I’ve always wondered, like from a pro boxer, what does it mean, what are you see when you’re boxing? Is it like, is it all like peripheral vision and an instinct? Is it more like, what did they just tell me? Kind of? I don’t know if you can articulate that? Or can I describe what that looks like?
Eli Garcia: So like, alright, so before I tell you what it’s like before Dr. Marc and after don’t?
Yeah. So before Dr. Marc, go in the ring, like, I was more focused on who’s in the crowd watching. Who’s in the crowd, right? And then you hop in the ring. And it’s just you and the guy, right, you guys make eye contact, and it’s like, Alright, whatever. But then I’m like, I’m worried about what I’m doing for the fans, and they’re like, you know, I wanna make you proud of me, right? So then, like, not only that, like, you know, even when we’re in there fighting, whatever the case may be, like, I’ll be fighting him. And then I look at the crowd, you know, like, I look at the crowd, and we either like, even if I dropped the opponent, and he’s down, I’m not worried about finishing him, I’m more like, what’s the crowd, you know, that was me.
Even sparring or so then, you know, we, my dad, my dad noticed that my manager noticed that. So then they’re like, we have to do something different, you know, like, something’s not right here. So then we came to Dr. Marc, and started doing these eye exercises, doing these doing his brain lasers, everything.
Now when I’m in the back room warming up, mentally, I’m just worried about my opponent. Like, I don’t care about anything else besides my opponent, because mentally it’s all I’m focused on. I hop on the ring. I don’t care about who’s in the crowd, you know, I’m looking at my opponent the whole time to keep my eyes on, you know, like, that’s, that’s all I’m worried about. Because, you know, like, it’s, it’s either him or me, you know, I’m saying, I’m just, I’m just focused on him. Even when the fight starts, you know, like, it’s the guy’s trying to… he wants to fight me. He wants to knock me out. Like he wants me to be embarrassed, you know. So mentally that changed. Like, I’m not gonna get knocked down in front of my kids. And I think and I come in front of my lady. I’m looking to whup this guy’s ass, you know? That’s what I’m focused on. And so this is a mental game changer. It’s something you’ve never experienced before. And you have to do it, you know.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s, that, to me, I think is a really fascinating answer that you share there. Because, for me, I would have just assumed that okay, yeah, we’re using lasers on the brain. And the assumption I would have thought was, it helps to speed up brain healing, which we know that it does that. It helps to maybe improve hand eye coordination, and or speed and or power and all of that.
But the angle that you took the first thing that you noticed in terms of the outcome, and I’m sure you notice those things, too, but what you shared with us there is that it helps your mental state, you know, in terms of your ability to focus and to stay focused on the task at hand. And that kind of caught me off guard a little bit in terms of that answer, which is really fascinating, right? Because it just goes to show you the diversity of the things that these lasers and therapies that you’re doing, can can have the outcome, the positive outcomes is not only can it help with performance and help with recovery and all of that, but also just from that simple standpoint of your mental state being in the right headspace to be able to to engage in that and no doubt that that is going to help give you a really powerful advantage moving forward and all of your fights especially if you’d previously had…I could have I guess I can’t even imagine what that would be like number one to be standing in a ring. I’d be pissing my pants more or less more than likely. But number two…exactly that I hadn’t even thought about. That’s like a holy cow. Like what? What’s an average fight attendance look like for you in terms of crowd size? What is it? What do those look like?
Eli Garcia: Most of it’s like around 10,000…
Dr. Marc Burdorf: I mean, well, It’s kind of like UFC, all roads lead to UFC. So you started out with the Thunderbolt boxing. And that was at the Dutch…little Dutch theater downtown outside the Federal Reserve, whatever.
And, I mean, you know, he’s kind of when I first met him, he was like being the headliner. And now that he’s going in now, he’s at the Footprint where the Phoenix Suns play. And so it’s kind of like he’s working his way back down. But when everything’s going on at the flight, I mean, the lower…there’s 18,000 people, you know, the capacity and for the, for the basketball games, when you got to realize boxing, a whole floor filled, and that whole lower level spilled. So it’s gotta be, like, you know, he’s used to it now. But I mean, you know, he’s a celebrity. He’s the main liner, he’s sure, you know, people see him. So he’s got a fan base.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that has got to be a potential distraction, no doubt, you know, what I mean, how to stay focused in terms of that. And so I hadn’t even considered that aspect of it. You know, let alone the, the, again, the jitters the nerves ahead of time in terms of that, that’s got to be something that requires a certain level of mental headspace conditioning and preparation and all that stuff. And so it’s cool to hear you share that lasers and the therapies you’ve been doing have helped. In that regard. That wouldn’t have been what I would have thought your answer would have been, I would have thought like, oh, yeah, I can notice my speeds improved and my coordination with the speed bag and that which I’m assuming also has been helpful as well. Correct?
Eli Garcia: Yep. So like, another another thing, right? Like, when the crowd…right? Whether it’s his crowd, or my crowd, like if someone gets hit, you know, the crowd goes crazy. If I hit him, and I know I’m gonna finish him like, I’m just worried about the fight. I’m not worried about the crowd going crazy, because I know I’m gonna knock him out. I’m worried about like, Alright, I got him hurt, but even in the end, a hurt man’s the most dangerous man in the ring. And, so… even the jitters? Like you said, the jitters? I figured out like, if you’re not nervous, or you don’t got the jitters, then you got nothing to fight for.
Dr. Marc Burdorf: I think one of the things that’s really been kind of fun for me in this last year working with Eli is, you know, different therapies and stuff that we’ve done with him. And one of the things is, you know, yes, this guy’s got massive muscles and strength and hidden potential, but it’s kind of like Tom Brady. And one of the gifts they have is rendering a lot of these boxers you need professional combat athletes, as they literally see things unfold like a second before the rest of the world does.
Just like Tom Brady can walk in, come up to the line, do a bunch of audibles, read the defense. And that’s what Eli’s gift is he’s given me he just keeps getting better at it, which I’m gonna take the accolade I think the laser is helping reduce inflammation and obviously improving cognitive function. But the big thing is, we sat there with a different eye and balance and eye-hand coordination stuff and that’s why it’s like, it’s kind of fun. And I’m his dad even made the comment to me, it’s like he just is punching. It’s just his style. It’s changed. We’re just like, he’s like laser. He’s like, he’s he’s an assassin.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, right now. Yeah, I can’t help but think there’s a book called Blink by Malcolm Gladwell. Have you guys heard of that book before?
Dr. Marc Burdorf: I read all of Malcolm Gladwell. Yeah, Outliers…
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, he talks about that whole idea of like, decision making in split seconds. And this whole idea of this intuitive nature of things. And he was specifically talking about baseball players in the major leagues to where the ball was moving so fast that so much of the hitting process batting process is this instinctive process, it becomes instinctive. And my guess is it has to be the same in boxing as well. You know, in high school, I studied martial arts. I still do jiu jitsu, but back then I did Kempo karate, and I remember a lot of the techniques we learned at the time were so just quite frankly, unrealistic, you know, especially with like, okay, the guy’s gonna punch and your block looks like this. And it’s this perfect, pristine block.
And my guess is that in boxing, especially if you’re dealing with for crying out loud, that’s we’re assuming this is somebody who doesn’t know how to box if you’re going up against a boxer. These have got to be some crazy fast punches that are being thrown there. And so my guess is yes, technique plays a role in this whole process, but also, what it sounds like you’re alluding to as well as there’s got to be this certain level of like, almost like Sixth Sense intuition that’s taking place in this whole process. Is that correct as well?
Eli Garcia: 100% It’s 100%. Yeah. Because you got to be if you’re going to be a step ahead, yeah. See, ya got to be a step ahead. To be better, you know, you have to, otherwise you’re just an average guy, you know, and these brain exercises are no joke, you know, that whatever Dr. Marc has been doing no joke. 100% Like, I go, even these local fighters, like, they can’t compete with me, because, you know, it’s I don’t wanna sound cocky, but it’s true.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, no, that’s no, that’s it’s a very honest, very self aware statement. That thing, the question that I was going to ask is, do you feel at times, like, when you watch those movies, where you’ve got like, the hero who is like, you know, watching everything, like, I think it’s like The Matrix where everything is unfolding in slow motion. Have you been in fights like that? Where it feels like they’re going in slow mo, and you are just, like, not just one step ahead, but 10 steps ahead of them in terms of the process?
Eli Garcia: 100%.
Dr. Marc: Yeah, like, that’s why he’s 11 and 0.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, you don’t get you don’t get records without having some serious skill under your belt. And in terms of that, so yeah, that’s incredible.
Eli Garcia: Obviously, nighttime, nighttime, generally, I can break them down, you know, once I break them down, like, I can break, I can break them down mentally, I breaked them down physically and once they start going down, like everything just is can’t compete, you know, maybe compete for a couple seconds. But, you know, mentally I’m just stronger. You know, like, they might, they might be stronger than me. They could be faster than me, they get more skilled and the road gets really wet. You know, once I figured them out once I break them down, I could see, I could just se…I’m a step ahead.
Dr. Chad Woolner: They talk about in jiu jitsu in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, specifically, it being they like, and oftentimes when you get to these high levels, it being like a chess match. Right? And kinda like what Andrew was saying, for somebody who doesn’t know anything about grappling or jiu jitsu, watching a match can probably be pretty boring. And I would say that there’s probably a lot of misunderstanding surrounding boxing that people who don’t know about boxing, probably might think of it as almost like this very caveman esque you know, archaic, okay, it’s just these two idiots that step in the ring and just trade blows and bludgeoned each other.
But I would have to imagine that very similarly, when you get to the levels that you’re at, it’s every bit as much, if not more, so a chess match. In terms of the mental game, like you were saying, like, you got definite strategy in terms of the way you’re going in with your opponents in terms of the way that you’re planning on breaking a particular opponent down. You gotta know what he’s thinking or assume what he’s thinking you’re thinking or, or that sort of thing. And so, you know, kind of what you’ve been saying here, a lot of it, do you find that a chess match is also a good comparison in terms of this whole process when you go into these fights?
Eli Garcia: Yeah, 100% it’s, it’s a chess match, because one punch can change the fight, right? So if I have one game plan, and I’m going in there to put pressure right, and I get caught, and I have to fight, I have to fight in a different style. You know, I gotta be adaptable, right? I can, I can fight one way, you know, I can’t be one dimensional. That’s where I see a lot of fighters lose, because, like the beat the beat mentally they get outsmarted.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. Yeah, I don’t have a whole lot of experience in boxing, but some of the best UFC fights that you see, aside from like, the spectacular knockouts that everybody’s always looking for. Besides those, some of the best fights that you see, and I’ve seen it in boxing, too, right. But just not as much as UFC are the ones where a particular opponent gets forced into playing the other opponent’s game, right where all of a sudden they’re like crap, and that was I think that was a big theme behind the Floyd Mayweather-Conor McGregor fight right that everybody saw that everybody was like, kind of sort of quasi rooting for Conor McGregor, they wanted him to beat Floyd Mayweather. And yet, the reason Floyd Mayweather largely won is he forced Conor McGregor to fight his fight rather than…and that should kind of go without saying, right, Conor McGregor is an MMA fighter first, you know, and so props to him obviously, for stepping in the ring in the first place. But you know, so much of that…and my question to you would be, do you find that that tends to be kind of your your kind of general we’ll call it a general strategy is when you get into the ring forcing the other opponent to fight your kind of version of the fight and and or do you find that they’re trying to, obviously vice versa do the same with you and how do you how do you kind of approach that?
Eric Garcia: A lot of our game plan is to fight our fight, you know, whether that’s boxing… you hear it all the time in the boxing gym, going to fight your fight, you know, and because honestly, you know, you can’t fight. Like if you can’t fight your fight, you’re not gonna win at all, you’re like, or even, even if you can’t fight and fight, then you have to mentally you just have to figure it out, you know, like mentally you have to go in there, you gotta do what you got to do to win. And I don’t think a lot of people have what it takes to do that. But you see the greatest, the greatest can come back from adversity than they can come back and win. And I’ve seen it happen multiple times. So I know it’s possible.
Dr. Marc Burdorf: Yeah, I like one thing Eli said early in our interview here is, it’s about fear. And the thing is, the whole definition of fear and hope…this kind of applies to war, and I see combat warfare, but you know, people hope that things are gonna get better and stick their head in the sand. But you have to have fear. And just like you said earlier, it’s like, you got to fear that you’re gonna die. So you’ve got to do something to prevent that from happening. And same difference, you said, you know, the most dangerous person is the injured boxer fighting in the ring.
And the gift that Eli has is these two words called executive function. And so that means when you have your frontal lobe working really well, and that’s where it ties back into all the therapies, he trains heart out for all this stuff. He trains like his camp and all this stuff, you know, not just here on… not just six weeks here on. I mean, he’s so dedicated to his trade. And that’s what makes him way better than anyone else. He gets that way.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Dr. Marc, that is amazing advice. And Eli, another reason why we appreciate you doing this interview is because it’s a lot of…when you see people competing at your level and talking like Marc said about like when you engage in in in fear and just like operating at a hundred percent it’s very inspirational to a lot of people. And that’s one of the cool things about sports is when you see people doing these things that are are almost superhuman it captures our imagination.
We appreciate you doing this interview because there are a lot of doctors who are going to listen to this interview and they may not be taking care of professional athletes, but they’re also taking care of patients who have been hit in the head from baseball bats or car accidents or they fall and hit their head. And we’re talking here in terms of performance and becoming the next world champion boxer but the same principles also apply to brain health also work the same way. And I really appreciate you taking the time to do this because I hope it inspires other doctors and other chiropractors to take a look at low-level laser therapy on the effect that it has on the human body and the brain. That’s why we do this podcast, is to inspire other people and other doctors. So thank you for that. Also a question for you. You’re a young father now, at some point you’re going to be a former world champion 65-year-old Eli Garcia watching his grandkids box. Does it make you feel good to know that laser therapy not only has a performance benefit, but has a protective benefit on your brain?
Eli Garcia: 100%. I don’t want to fight forever, that’s something I don’t want to do. I don’t want to fight forever. Because I don’t want my brain to go to sleep. I know after I’m done fighting, I know what I gotta do in order to keep me mentally strong. I feel like a lot of people have mental health issues and that’s not something you can play with. If everyone had something like what I have, maybe it could help some of the issues they have.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s a great point. And you have another fight coming up in October? It’s August as we record this. So we’re two months, a little less than two.
Eli Garcia: 43 days away.
Dr. Chad Woolner: 43 days.
Dr. Andrew Wells: That rolled off your tongue.
Eli Garcia: I told my manager, told my promoter. Listen, if I can fight on this day, let’s make it happen. We are waiting today to see whether I can or whatever. I know mentally I have 43 days to get ready. 43 days to get better.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So we’re about ready to get into high gear for camp mode huh?
Eli Garcia: Mentally I’m ready. Physically I can improve.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. Well, Eli and Dr. Marc, we certainly appreciate you guys taking time out of your schedule. We know that you guys have a lot going on right now and Eli, we’re incredibly excited for you. You have such an amazing bright future ahead of you and again Dr. Marc that’s got to be such a fascinating and rewarding thing to be participating in and kind of seeing front row seats this whole evolution take place in this whole process of his career literally blossoming right in front of you. And so it’s exciting because I I know that you know a year from now, 5 years from now we’re going to look back on this podcast and and get to really see where things are at in no doubt I am confident that that that 11 and 0 record is going to grow in terms of those wins and those knockouts and so yeah it’s it’s exciting. Congratulations. And even more so than that, I do want to say congratulations on your family. Two kids, two little ones now and a house that you’re taking care of. Got you on your toes probably more than boxing does. And so congratulations on that as well.
Eli Garcia: Thank you, I like to say that two and through, you know?
Dr. Chad Woolner: There you go. Amazing. Well anything else you wanted to add Dr. Wells?
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah I just, congrats so far on your career, keep focused. We’re happy for you, we’re happy for your family. We’re happy that Dr. Marc and Eli, you’ve found each other. You seem like an awesome pair. And we wish you nothing but the best in your future fights and everything you do beyond that.
Eli Garcia: Thank you very much – we appreciate that.
Dr. Woolner: Alright. That is it for this episode we certainly appreciate Eli and Dr. Marc being here with us. And if you found this valuable share this with others that you think could benefit regardless of whether you’re a high elite level athlete or if you’re just a regular person who is looking to just enhance brain health and overall health and function check out what Erchonia is doing to have some amazing lasers and we hope that you found this valuable. We will talk to you guys on the next episode.
Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchnoia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.
Inflammation is one of the top causes behind the chronic pain many U.S. citizens struggle with in their daily lives. Whether it be from injury, infection, or an overreaction by the immune system, finding non-invasive treatment methods could be of interest to medical professionals across a multitude of different practice areas.
In today’s blog post, we’ll dive into how low-level laser therapy (3LT®) could be a solution to inflammation problems and why you should consider investing in a 3LT® device for your practice.
As physicians and practitioners know, inflammation is a natural immune response to injury or infection. The swelling is caused by a fluid containing extra white blood cells which can remove debris and other infection-causing bacteria. The process is meant to protect your body from re-injury.
When inflammation triggers and then later reduces, it is known as acute inflammation. When inflammation does not dissipate after healing is complete, it can lead to other serious health concerns.
Defined as inflammation lasting three months or more, chronic inflammation is behind much of the chronic pain that as many as 50 million U.S. adults experience in their daily lives.
In addition to the discomfort brought on by the swelling, the prolonged immune response also means an excess of white blood cells remains at the site of infection or injury. These white blood cells can throw off free radicals, which can damage healthy blood cells.
From minor injuries and post-surgery recovery to chronic inflammation and pain, there is no shortage of opportunities for laser therapy treatment for pain and inflammation. This treatment method is also known as phototherapy or photobiomodulation.
The science behind laser therapy hinges on providing energy to your cells, specifically the mitochondria. By providing your cells with energy from the laser light, the cells become more active. This takes advantage of the natural healing power of the human body. By simply enhancing the natural healing process, there are little to no side effects of laser light therapy. This, in addition to its non-invasive nature, makes laser therapy treatment a perfect tool to treat inflammation and pain.
The science behind laser therapy hinges on providing energy to your cells, specifically the mitochondria.
While laser therapy can be used in place of invasive surgeries, sometimes surgery is unavoidable. Laser treatment can be a useful tool in aiding the recovery process. Much of the recovery time for surgery is managing inflammation as it dissipates. The reason for surgery plus the surgery itself can aggravate the immune system.
Using laser therapy following surgery can speed up this process, allowing patients to restore their range of motion and reduce any pain they may feel following their operation.
Outside of surgery, another short-term inflammation problem 3LT® can help with is reducing pain post-injury.
Similar to what was said above, keeping inflammation to a minimum can aid in the recovery process. In the case of physical therapists, building strength after injury (to prevent injury from reoccurring) is vital, but can be hindered if there is excess inflammation.
According to the National Institute of Health, roughly 80% of people will experience back pain at some point in their life. There are a variety of methods to treat back pain without surgery. However, 3LT® has shown to have some of the strongest, drug-free results. In addition to being non-invasive and drug-free, laser therapy treatment for pain and inflammation has also been shown to have long-lasting results. This is an ideal outcome for those with chronic back pain.
According to the National Institute of Health, roughly 80% of people will experience back pain at some point in their life.
Arthritis and tendonitis are other common instances of inflammation. Affecting the joints and tendons respectively, arthritis and tendonitis can severely limit the range of motion and fine motor skills of those afflicted. Common treatments heavily rely on prescriptions or over-the-counter treatment in order to manage pain. For those interested in reducing their medicine intake or those who do not find relief in medications, laser therapy is a promising solution.
As we’ve shown, laser therapy can be an excellent treatment option for those experiencing pain and inflammation. However, these patients can only access this type of treatment if their doctors or physical therapist carries a laser therapy device at their practice. Here is a summary of some of the top benefits your practice can provide with a laser therapy device:
Inflammation is a natural immune response to infection or injury. If left unchecked, inflammation can cause other serious health problems such as chronic pain. Laser light therapy offers a non-invasive, alternative treatment to drugs and surgery, and can be used to treat a wide variety of conditions. If you regularly treat patients struggling with chronic pain and inflammation such as those with chronic back pain, arthritis, or tendonitis among other conditions, then providing laser light therapy will greatly benefit them. As a practice, you can leverage laser light therapy as a treatment for pain and inflammation to better treat a greater number of patients.
Contact Erchonia today to learn more about how our low-level laser therapy treatment can transform your practice.
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Dr. Huff has been using Erchonia lasers to treat his patients with a wide range of inflammatory conditions, pre and post-operative procedures, infections, arthritis, and a host of other clinical conditions. Discover what Dr. has learned over the last 15 years using low-level laser therapy to deliver superior results for his patients and their owners.
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https://www.erchonia.com/products/vls-laser/
Dr. Chad Woolner: Have you heard of veterinary low-level lasers? The Erchonia veterinary lasers are the most researched and validated veterinary lasers in the market. These are non-thermal lasers with absolutely no side effects or adverse events. No other laser systems can produce the outcomes of the Erchonia lasers for acute and chronic pain, pre-operative and post-operative applications, wound healing, and countless other therapeutic benefits.
All the laser protocols are quick and effective, and average treatment time is around 3-5 minutes. All the lasers are fully automated and pre-programed with your veterinary protocols for ease of use. Just push the start button and treat the desired area. That’s it. Erchonia hosts several webinars and seminars each year to provide personalized training, as well as keeping you up-to-date with all the latest developments with laser healthcare. You can go to their website erchoniavetlasers.com for more information on the #1 veterinary laser system today.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells and today we have with us our special guest Dr. Dave Huff and we’re going to be talking about lasers in veterinary medicine. So let’s get started.
Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Alright, welcome to the show everybody and a special welcome to Dr. Dave Huff. Dr. Dave, great to have you on the show with us, thanks for being here.
Dr. Dave Huff: No problem, glad to do it. Thanks for having me on!
Dr. Chad Woolner: So Dr. Huff is a veterinarian. And I have to admit there’s a certain level of awe that comes to mind whenever I think of veterinarians because with us as the various respective doctors we are, we have one species that we focus on. And more often than not, we are only focused on one specific area because of specialization and departmentalization. Not only do you have to focus on head-to-toe everything, or I should say – head to tail, everything, but you have multiple species across the spectrum in terms of what you have to be knowledgeable about. I can’t even wrap my head around that. So hats off to you – tons of respect to veterinarians out there. Where do you practice?
Dr. Dave Huff: I’m just outside of Raleigh in Clayton, NC
Dr. Chad Woolner: How long have you been practicing?
Dr. Dave Huff: Longer than I care to admit. About 33 years.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. The other thing I have to tell you is everytime I think of veterinarians I think of that Far Side comic. The Gary Larson one where he says “yet again another student breezes through equine medicine. Where it was like “what’s the symptom of the problem: broken leg, what’s the solution: Shoot. Appendicitis. Shoot
Dr. Dave Huff: Larson was actually pre-vet if you look him back up
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh really
Dr. Dave Huff: I’m a huge huge fan. I have the complete gallery, I have every cartoon he’s ever done. I have the complete three book series. That’s why he has so many animal=related items.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That makes tons of sense. We have a calendar every year in the other doc that I work with. Dr. Allen gets a Far Side calendar so everyday that we’re in the office we get to peel it off so we can see what the next cartoon is that he does. But now that you say that, that makes so much sense because so much of his world in terms of his comics revolves around animals. So that makes a ton of sense.
Dr. Dave Huff: Yep, he chose wisely. He chose a more profitable path for sure.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s hilarious. So I guess maybe a good starting off point is to tell us a little about your practice. What does a typical day look like for you?
Dr. Dave Huff: Well, we are a small animal practice so we do probably 70% dog, 30% cat. And then there’s a spattering of pocket pets – gerbils, things like that. But they are very very rare for us for sure. And I have done equine, cattle, done all that in the past but I got smart enough to get out of that. Dogs might bite you but horses and cows might kill you. It’s a little bit safer realm. We are a five doctor practice right now. I started this business with just me, myself about 17 years ago. And we are definitely busy everyday we’re using lasers as well as other things. I have some other specialties I do. I do chiropractic veterinary practice.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh wow
Dr. Dave Huff: I do a lot of canine reproduction as well. I have other niches so to speak beyond the laser that keep us busy everyday for sure.
Dr. Chad Woolner: As a veterinary chiropractor, is that an additional specialization in terms of schooling? Or is that an elective within your standard curriculum.
Dr. Dave Huff: It’s definitely outside of the curriculum. It is something I did when I got out. Acupuncture and chiropractic were some things that I did once I got out of school. They are not traditionally taught in the schools. I have gone to the schools and taught some of it – more than taught, exposed the students in some classes to the alternative therapies. As a general rule, they are something you would do outside of graduation.
Dr. Chad Woolner: How did you get started with the lasers?
Dr. Dave Huff: Well, honestly though the chiropractic and a little bit of acupuncture. I started looking at alternative medicine. To be honest, I always thought acupuncture was a bit of a placebo effect, you don’t learn this kind of stuff in the real world. I watched dogs and they’re getting stuck by the needle. There’s no placebo effect. If it works it works. And that’s what got me interested in it. The laser therapy to me was a bit of Western medicine acupuncture in the sense that manipulating things at the cellular level and doing that. Certainly my chiropractic and alternative therapy got me looking into other therapies and that’s how I ended up doing laser therapy.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s something to me that I think is really fascinating when we go into the realm of animals. Is that whole idea of placebo, to some degree, thrown out the window a little bit? With humans, obviously there’s that question being all the time when we talk to patients there’s always that question “Did I just think myself better in terms of this” and we know that’s a very real thing – both placebo and nocebo. With animals when you have that obvious and inherent communication barrier that’s there what you see is what you get to a certain extent is my understanding.
Dr. Dave Huff: Animals just don’t feel sorry for themselves. So they are ready to heal and get better no matter what situation. You know – it helps us tremendously when you realize that the animal is doing its thing and not bringing any baggage.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Right, that’s incredible.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I have to imagine in veterinary medicine one of the challenges is your patients can’t speak to you. THey can’t tell you it hurts here. This isn’t working. Whereas we have the luxury of being able to communicate like that verbally with our patients. I have to imagine not only from a diagnostic standpoint, but from a treatment standpoint that it must be challenging and sometimes frustrating to know what the problem is. And also actually working other than just tracking symptoms and I’m sure you have objective measurements and things like that. That’s certainly have to be a challenge in veterinary medicine
Dr. Dave Huff: Well – I think it is a unique aspect, I suppose pediatricians who work on the very young would have a similar game so to speak. I’ve yet to have a dog walk in with its own leash by itself – so you always have an owner giving you some information. Sometimes good, sometimes bad information. But it is a unique challenge. I think that it’s what makes veterinarians so good at problem solving and getting things through. I think the laser has really been a great component to that because I can evaluate patients. What am I trying to do here? What am I trying to deal with? Then find an application for the laser or any therapy that you would have. For sure the laser has been a good tool to take that information that you gain from the exam and history and then apply it to what you are trying to accomplish.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I saw this in action and I mentioned this in our previous podcast and I thought this was really – I kinda laughed when I saw it. Afterwards I thought “this is really powerful.” I think it was maybe Dr. Varuka’s wife who had posted this Facebook video where a bird flew into their window and hit the ground and was laying on its side. They went outside, lasered it for 15 min and at the end the bird popped up on its feet, flew off, as if seemingly nothing happened. How amazing is this tool? I have to imagine it was not just the bird was dizzy for 15 min and just happened to fly off. I think 15 min for a bird to be laying on its side has to be a significant amount of time. But what a really cool tool to be able to pick up not knowing anything but this bird has hit a window. So maybe that’s a good segue into what got you interested in using lasers as a treatment protocol for your patients?
Dr. Dave Huff: Well I think for sure I was looking for something to add another another bullet in the gun so to speak or treatments and and diseases and things that don’t have great benefits and the laser and especially the Erchonia low level laser provided a do no harm option for me to use on so many conditions without the worry of complications, without worries of contraindications, without worries to the pet without worries to the owner. Those were some really big factors in what drove me there to start utilizing the technology. I truly believe the first adage to medicine is “Do no harm” and so if we can start from there and we have a product that will provide that “Do no harm” it gives us so much more flexibility it gives us so much more confidence that what we’re doing is the thing that will offer benefit while minimizing risk in this case for the most part without risk. In some 15 years I’ve yet to see an untoward event utilizing this laser in literally thousands of applications.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s pretty incredible.The question I would have is what are some of the most common applications, things that you’re using it for with the pets that you’re seeing?
Dr. Dave Huff: Well to put in a bad pun the laser shines when we use it for therapy. For sure pre- and post-operative Pain Management, when you’re dealing with either arthritic pain, or back pain these are some areas. For sure I’m going to use it in pretty much any itis I treat, whether it’s gastritis, or pancreatitis, or uveitis. You can list an itis and and there’s an application for the laser to try to reduce that inflammation so it is extremely valuable across the board.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So it’s like a Swiss army knife of sorts in terms of tools that you use in your tool bag.
Dr. Dave Huff: It is. I mean it provides us with so many options. There’s always an application – I mean I probably don’t use it as much as I should. There probably isn’t a patient who walks in the door that couldn’t benefit from it. But of course you are balancing other things, and traditional medicine. One of the things I love about the laser is you don’t have to forget your traditional medicine. You don’t have to back out. If I’m treating, just as an example, pancreatitis, I’m still going to treat the dog with IV fluids. I’m still going to give the things that are traditional medicine but I can add this without concern to further my treatment options, speed the healing and make the dog feel better. That’s really one of the places it really shine in. An adjunct, you can add it to anything.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Dr. Huff, I’m just curious, you mentioned benefiting the patient with side effects. Have you found when using lasers not only as an adjunct. But have you found that this has replaced certain therapies that you are using?
Dr. Dave Huff: Oh yeah. A hundred per cent. I mean the biggest place probably that I have replaced surgery is non-surgical use of the laser to treat cranial cruciate ligament injuries.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I’m sure the owners are thrilled about not having to operate on their pets. You brought up an interesting point Dr. Huff that I want to talk about. I want to talk about the economics and I had a conversation with the orthopedic surgeon years ago. We were talking about using regenerative medicine for knees. And this doctor, this surgeon, got into regenerative medicine back in the 90s when nobody knew about it, and he got phenomenal results with patients. And he kind of took a leave from that. He stopped using it for like 15 years and then I was trying to bring it back and I asked him “Why did you ever stop using regenerative medicine? He looks at me and goes “Andrew – I have 5 kids. I would be lying if I said I didn’t have some financial incentive to do more invasive procedures.” Like arthroscopic surgery, to do knee replacements.
And I’m like “wow, did you really say that?” And the Doc was a super nice guy. I mean, his bedside manner with patients, he just seems like a very honest, ethical person, he was telling me the truth. He said “Listen, they pay me well to do knee operations. I do a great job with knee operations, and I get my patients better. Is it more risky doing surgery than regenerative medicine? Absolutely. But there’s a time and a place that has and I really don’t have a whole lot of time to try to convince people to spend money on regenerative medicine. When I can just use their insurance and then get them to the operating room.”
I was kind of blown away by that. I knew that that was true but that’s some of what he told me truth..
Dr. Dave Huff: Well what I’ve always said is if you go to a surgeon expect the surgeon to answer.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah that’s exactly right. So maybe I gotta imagine there’s some vets listening to this podcast, and they’re thinking, I gotta imagine, it’s the same thing in veterinary medicine. And if you’re doing an operation, it’s probably am I assuming it’s more lucrative to do an operation than to do laser therapy? Or?
Dr. Dave Huff: Well, I mean, it’s all a balance, right? I mean, because your costs are just dramatically less doing laser compared to what your cost would be with surgery. For most of us in the veterinary world, we’re not looking for more to do, we’re trying to streamline our day, we’re trying to find ways to maximize our day. And, you know, laser therapy, one of the beauties of it is after I do the initial diagnosis, for example, on a cruise ship, there’ll be a series of 13 lasers over four months.
Well, after I do the initial exam, and an evaluation, the technicians do the next 12 lasers. So the only involvement for me, I’ll have a couple of rechecks in there. But my time is very limited compared to what I would do. If I was a surgeon, I would be me, I would have techs, I would have the surgical suite. So you know, it’s never going to obviously take you out of surgery, and you’re never doing surgery again, because I have the laser, but it is a benefit. And I’ve never really done a critical cost analysis, you know, to say, okay, exactly how much time would I have spent on this procedure versus this? But I know, I do way more cruciates than I would have done surgeries, because of the economics, the owners. I mean, you look at $4-500 versus $2,000. That’s not That’s not a difficult decision for most owners. And of course, we deal with very little insurance. On the veterinary side, it does exist, but it’s still probably one to 2% of our patients that have insurance. And truth be told, if they really, really want surgery, there are better surgical options, you know, go into an orthopedic specialist. Anyway, so we’re not really hurting ourselves in that vein.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I was gonna say I get the impression that you’re unlike traditional medicine in our healthcare industry, that you’re making these decisions for the benefit of the pet, not necessarily for the benefit, financial gain that you get from the practice. Is that, because we were finding this especially this is a huge, huge issue in, in healthcare in the US is that most, I think a lot of procedures are recommended, not because it’s necessarily the best, safest recommendation for the patient, but it’s the best thing because it fits the model, fits the business model.
Dr. Dave Huff: Yeah, I mean, I’ve always, I’ve always kidded and said, you know, as a private practitioner, I had my own health insurance, I had to do it. Now. I said, I had been hit by car insurance. You know, I had a big deductible, and getting hit by a car was okay. But what I learned and experienced in that as well, I would go to the doctor and just have a cold or whatever, they do a strep test in there. And then they say, well, we’re gonna send it out to confirm it. I said, “How’s it gonna change what you do? Because I’m the one paying for that, I’m not, it’s not just insurance going down the street. You know, you’re still giving me antibiotics, you’re still treating it?” “Well, it’s the standard of care.” I said, “Well, it’s not the standard of care in my life, because I’m not going to, I have to pay for it.” And so in veterinary medicine, I think we do have, it’s a delicate balance, to be sure. But I think we have a little bit more luxury. And there’s the downside, of course, is there are certain patients that can’t afford to do certain things. And, and obviously, that’s true on the human side, too. But overall, I think it is a positive and, and we take economics into it. But mostly fortunately, it’s where we are at for this pet.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So my question now, now that we’re kind of getting into this is, I’m curious as to what the landscape currently looks like in terms of veterinarians using lasers, is this becoming mainstream? Is it still kind of relatively unknown? Is it viewed with a certain level of skepticism within the profession? Where are things currently and then where do you see things moving forward within the next five to ten years?
Dr. Dave Huff: Yeah, the simple answer is yes. All those things exist. Yeah. Lasers in veterinary medicine, but I think it’s fairly mainstream. I think the biggest confusion, which frustrates me, is that not all lasers are the same, right? And laser doesn’t mean laser. And it’s just across the board, I do believe Erchonia’s laser, being a cold therapy laser, photochemical, not photo thermal, not involving heat is just apples and oranges technology. And it’s what makes it work so well. And what makes it so safe. So I think, you know, I don’t want to bash lasers, right? Other lasers have their place. They have some function, but I don’t think there’s anything I can’t do with my laser. And I can do it safer and better. The only thing I can’t do with it is produce heat. And that’s because I don’t want to produce heat.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Right. You know, that was you, I was I would still consider myself relatively new to this realm. I mean, prior to us getting involved with Erchonia. I had seen them and I had heard about it before. But I was very much in that camp that I think so many often are, of that there’s a direct correlation with how much power is being put out to the efficacy of the laser, right?
More equals better is kind of, I think, a very common sentiment amongst the ignorant. And I don’t mean that to be insulting, I just think that’s a fairly common sentiment amongst people. And so again, I think that probably has to be to some degree prevalent in your profession as well, that there’s just this assumption that in order to get results, this thing has to just penetrate really, really deep. And the key to penetration, again, is going to be power, you know, and and that was I think one of the most revealing things to me and I would speak for Dr. Wells as well, is that when you start to learn the science behind it, you start to see that, that that’s not the case that there’s so much more to this story than just cranking up the dial as high as it can go and trying to just nuke, you know, the patient with these lasers, and you start to really see the science behind it is pretty, pretty compelling, you know, with what Erchonia has shown us.
Dr. Dave Huff: Yeah, and I mean, when I first started looking at it, it was the thing that drew me to Erchonia is I went to the other veterinary lasers, literally was at a conference, going from booth to booth talking to people trying to make my decision. And, you know, I kept coming back to three things.
One was safety for patients and owners. Two were the FDA clearances and approvals. Erchonia, back then, I was doing this for a long time. I think they had four FDA clearances on the human side at that time, they’re over 20 now. And to this day, they’re still class four lasers that just don’t have those clearances. And they were double blind FDA studies, they weren’t just the IP, they showed safety and efficacy. And that was really a selling point for me. Because it’s, that’s, that’s ultimately what I want to do for my patients is benefit them.
And I want to have confidence, telling my patients that yes, this technology is safe, and it’s proven. That’s a combination that’s important for sure. So it is absolutely the power, I always tell my children growing up, you know, the best lies are founded in truth, right. And the power laser, it’s true, if you’re trying to heat the tissues, you need power. If you heat, you know, we don’t think microwaves as a light technology. But the microwave is a form of electromagnetic radiation or LightWave. Just like the laser, or the non visible Infrared, well, you put enough wattage, you can heat tissue in a microwave, right? It’s the same principle.
And we’re not trying to do that, we’re not trying to deal with a photochemical reaction much closer to photosynthesis, we’re trying to communicate at the cellular level, and get the body to heal or get the body to respond. It’s a very elegant way to communicate using those photons of light. And then we can initiate all kinds of cascades and all kinds of anti-inflammatory aspects, things that the body can do, not unlike a drug. If we give a drug, it goes to a receptor, and it stimulates a response. Well photons of light go to receptors and stimulate a response to.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s a great way of putting it. My question for you, because I don’t think I know this; what FDA clearances are there currently in the veterinary side of things? Because I’m familiar with what Erchonia has on the human side, but tell us a little bit about that.
Dr. Dave Huff: Well, the biggest thing is unfortunately, the FDA doesn’t get involved in the veterinary side. That’s what’s driven, so many of them on the human side, there are a couple of applications but for the most part, good, bad or indifferent, the veterinary medicine is, is part of the blessing and the curse in our industry is because the veterinary lasers don’t have to prove safety or efficacy.
They just have to say what they’re going to do. And then they get FDA clearance. As a perfect example, I mean, well, certainly, I won’t name the laser, but there is a prominent laser company out there, and they’re FDA clearance is for a heat lamp, right? That’s what their FDA clearance is. And so it is what it is, right? That’s all they have to prove is can this body produce? Can this device produce heat? And if it can, it’s FDA approved in the veterinary world. So it is a double edged sword, to be sure. But the FDA approvals that I spoke of back when I did it, they were all on the human side. And that’s where it’s driven. So, but the point is, the class IV lasers aren’t on the human side.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So does that make your realm a little bit kind of Wild West in terms of, do you see a lot of various types of tools and technologies and therapies being kind of sold to your colleagues and whatnot?
Dr. Dave Huff: Yeah, unfortunately. And that’s why I mentioned earlier, lasers gets dumped into a million different packages. And it’s just not appropriate because there are variabilities in the laser, how it works, why it works, proof that it works. And Erchonia low level therapy laser just knocks it out of the park compared to any of the others out there. For those three factors safety, efficacy, and cost for that matter. The three that I was thinking but be that as it may. Yeah, it is a bit of a wild west, for sure.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I was gonna mention too, with veterinary medicine, you gotta find some satisfaction knowing that your pets can’t feel what’s happening to them, right? Like with other lasers, you have to worry about burning them or is it too hot? Is it too cold? The nice thing about Erchonia lasers is you don’t feel it. And then on the human side, that can be sometimes a negative because like I can’t feel it working. Is it really a working doc? But on the animal side, it’s like they don’t want to feel it working. And they just don’t know. You don’t have to have your techs working on it on an animal. They don’t have to worry about harming the animal. And the animal doesn’t feel it. So that’s got to be, I’m just picturing like a dog laying on a therapy table or a table, not squirming around knowing that it’s getting, you know, feeling heat in the area doesn’t feel heat. That’s got to be pretty comforting knowing that your techs don’t have to worry about that.
Dr. Dave Huff: Well, absolutely. And in fact, I mean, I will say there’s no doubt that there is not a sensation perhaps over the area, but what I do see absolutely with the veterinary medicine is when we do lasers on pets, it’s almost always calming. And the pets usually after just a minute or two of the, are laying down and relax. And I have a lot of techs that have come from other practices that we’re using the other types of lasers and every one of them says, I just can’t believe the difference when I used to treat the other pets, they get anxious, they get nervous, they’d be uncomfortable. And you do have to be careful because, for example, on a black dog, a dark, dark colored dog, that laser energy, or that infrared energy is absorbed in a much more rapid and intense way. So you had to be careful about certain colors of dogs and where you did it and you had to move it around, you couldn’t leave it in one place.
And, you know, when the veterinarian label started getting into lasers years ago, one of the first laser companies that had surgical lasers, they were cutting surgical lasers. Their first attempt would simply be focusing on cutting laser. And so it was a cutting laser, they just deep focused it to make it bigger, and it produced heat and it did things but it was a defocus surgical laser. So you know, it’s like, you wonder about it.
And when you get into the FDA clearances, you know, there’s FDA, 123 and 4, and there’s a couple of AB categories in there. But the FDA categorizes lasers simply on whether or not they do harm. And you know, the Erchonia laser is a do no harm product. If you were to look at the light through binoculars or through a telescope, yes, that might injure your eye. That’s what the class two laser says. Right. But if you’re looking with a binocular, I think you cull the species and you get what you deserve. You know, what the class four lasers labeled a class four laser, because the FDA says that the moment that laser touches the skin, it causes damage, or it impacts the retina negatively if it touches it at all. And, and that’s all FDA clearances are talking about. They’re not talking about safety. They’re not talking well, they are talking about safety, apologize, they’re not talking about efficacy. They’re simply saying, what does this laser do to the body when it impacts it? And Erchonia is laser is, again, pretty much due to harm and the class four lasers absolutely do harm immediately. So that’s why you have to move it around. That’s why you have to be careful with certain colored dogs. Because it does have a negative impact, potentially right. But as far as the FDA is concerned immediately upon impact.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So in your, how many years would you say you’ve been using lasers? Did you say 17? Yeah, 15 years? In your 15 years – and obviously this is going to be a little bit of a challenging question. Maybe it will be. Are there a handful of experiences that you’ve seen that stand out to you in terms of like, incredible, miraculous stories that you share? Typically, whenever you think of lasers, you’re like, oh, man like these? This stands out.
Dr. Dave Huff: I mean, I definitely have several that stand out. One of which was a patent. It’s too complicated but if you go to some of my webinars or seminars, I presented the case, so you get to see it, but I had a dog who had a myriad of problems and pain and had been to the veterinary schools. And basically the vet schools told the owner, we can’t get a response. We’ve thrown everything we can think of it this dog, we recommend euthanasia. And so they came to me because they were a client. I’d referred him to the vet school because he had really amazing, significant problems. He had just a few things: he had bone, fungal bone infection, and bacterial heart infection, extreme pain because he had spondylitis, which is an infection in the vertebral bodies of the spine. And he came in to me and could not walk. I mean, he was basically on eggshells and couldn’t walk.
And within 30 days, we had that dog wagging his tail and getting around. And I kept that dog alive for about a year and a half, and did great and without any other meds except we kept them on a thromboembolic medication because he had a severe valvular heart problem.
And eventually he threw a major clot from that and passed away. But this was a pet that, you know, modern medicine had given up. Modern medicine had thrown everything you can think at it and gave up. And the laser was able to relieve that pain and get it around. So I mean, that one definitely stands out. I have others.
I have a patient that came to me and had slough about 70% of its back off. Maybe it had been a brown recluse spider bite, I don’t know for sure. And we lasered that dog and got it healed. And it was an area that was probably, was a golden retriever. It was an area that was probably 20 inches long by about eight inches wide of area of skin and it just slumped and died. And I did traditional medicine. I’m gonna scrap some traditional therapies right? No doubt about. But we used the laser extensively, and we got that dog to heal. And it had a scar that was about two centimeters by one centimeter in the center. And that was it. Everything else healed completely epithelialization we got hair growth. You could not, I mean, again, you had a tiny area. And that was in about 87 days, we were down to just that tiny area left.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Wow. That’s amazing. That’s impressive. So I got to ask a question, Dr. Huff. Most doctors, I think, get into laser therapy to help patients but I think for the primary reason is they want to help themselves and want to help their family. Do you ever take these lasers home and use them on yourself or use them on your family?
Dr. Dave Huff: You can’t see behind me because this is a podcast, but I could show you the two lasers I have right here at home that we use. And it’s funny over the years, because you have so many clients that have come in with the dog and we’re treating something with inflammation. I have one that I recall on the lease, I have a terrible tennis elbow. And I told him to “Look, I can’t stop you from getting your elbow in the beam while I’m treating your dog.” And sure enough, you know, she came back about two or three times. Later she goes, “Oh my gosh, my elbow is so much better. I can’t believe that I gotta find a doctor to help me with this.”
So yeah, I mean, it’s, it’s, it’s one of the beauties of the tech. It’s one of the beauties of the technology because it’s so proven on the human side, right. And, so there’s no question that we use it. There’s not a person in my office that has not been lasered. An interesting aside, we talked about this, when I started doing post-op, and pre-op laser treatments for our pets, for all our surgeries. And I’ll tell you a little bit about this, just because this is why I tell veterinarians it is a great way to get started if you bring a laser in, just add it as a post surgical pain management game, right? Simple to do.
Well, as I’m closing, I’m older, right? And this even 15 years ago, I was older, but I had arthritis in my fingers. Because just you know, normal arthritis of doing surgeries and doing all that stuff. And the techs would start to laser the patient for post operative pain, as I was closing, so my hands would be in the laser. And I noticed my hands felt so much better. You know, just doing surgeries, and keeping my hands in there while they were while I was closing, they will be doing the laser. And so yeah, there’s no doubt. There’s not a person in my office that hasn’t been lasered.
Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s amazing. That’s the exact opposite. I think of Marie Curie, right, getting your hands and in the x-ray beams. And yeah, yeah, that didn’t help her though different types of different types of wavelength. Right. That’s amazing, though.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So doctor, have you mentioned that you do seminars for dogs? Who are listening for veterinarians who might be interested in kind of getting a bit more involved? Where would you send them?
Dr. Dave Huff: Well, I think for sure, Erchonia would be the best place because they have some of mine that are recorded. I go to certain conferences around the US. Now with COVID it has kind of faded a little bit. I don’t know what to claim. But people are getting back to in person seminars. We do some webinars for sure. And so for me, personally, I am not a social media guru by any stretch. So I don’t have my own podcast, I don’t have my own YouTube channel or anything like that. So I would just refer people to Erchonia. And they would be able to put them in touch with the way to get that information.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome. Well, we’ll make sure to get a link here in the show notes. So that docs who are listening who are interested in maybe diving a little bit deeper with what you’re doing, can get access to that. But Dr. Huff, we certainly appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to be here with us today. This has been really fascinating.
Again, I would just echo the same kind of sentiments that we started with it’s incredible to hear kind of your experiences there working with your your patients and and just the great work that you’re doing we really appreciate it and no doubt your pet owners certainly appreciate what you’re doing as well because you hear these stories about that dog that you helped, you know, that extra year and a half that you gave his owners no doubt was probably an extremely meaningful year and a half in their life no doubt. My parents just had to put down their their dog that had been with him for years and years and years and I can’t help but think about what wonderful memories they had with this with this pet and my children who whenever they would go and visit grandma and grandpa loved love this dog and so anyways, it’s it’s great work that you’re doing we really appreciate it and again, we appreciate you being here with us. So thank you so much.
Dr. Dave Huff: No Problem.Glad to do it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Docs we hope that this has been valuable for you as well. And yeah, we this is a better really, really fun episode than anything you wanted to add Dr. Wells?
Dr. Andrew Wells: No.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay. All right Doc’s. Well, we look forward to sharing more with you guys on upcoming episodes. Have an amazing day, we’ll talk to you later.
Thanks for listening to the laser light show, be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well Erchonia’s e- community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.
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