Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? Dr. Chad Woolnerr is here with Dr. Andrew Wells, and on this episode of The Laser Light Show, we are here with Dr. Kirk Gair and Dr. Michael Trayford. And we are super excited. This is going to be an incredible conversation. So let’s get to it.
Transcript
Speakers:
Dr. Andrew Wells
Dr. Chad Woolner
Dr. Kirk Gair
Dr. Michael Trayford
Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, welcome, everybody, to the show, and welcome Dr. Kirk Gair and Dr. Michael Trayford. How are you?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Good. Thank you.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. So, we were just getting started. I’m finding a theme with our podcasts: we can’t talk too much to our guests before the podcast because it starts to destroy the magic. What we’re finding are these awkward, abrupt stops to the conversations—the pre-podcast conversations—like, “Shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up. We need to get this recorded.” So, we were starting a conversation and were like, “No, we’re going to get this recorded.” So, we had been asking Dr. Kirk Gair about what he’s been doing for the past year and a half in his top-secret laboratory/clinic. And for the past year and a half, he has had to be tight-lipped about using a brand-new laser that Erchonia has been working on, right? And maybe you could tell us a little about what you’ve been doing there.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, so this is an amazing laser. It combines a violet wavelength with a green wavelength, the first time this has ever been done. As part of the three of us doctors who were the principal investigators in these clinical trials, we aimed to see what these lasers could do. This was specifically for chronic neck and shoulder pain, and the results have been phenomenal. I’ve been using Erchonia lasers since 2004, and I love what I’ve been able to do with them. But this went to a whole other level. As we were conducting the trials and had patients coming in with chronic neck and shoulder pain, the changes I was seeing in their range of motion and pain reduction were so startling that I actually started to get concerned there might be some kind of placebo effect at play. Perhaps the patients were just buying into it a bit too much, like a super placebo effect, because this was just not what I was expecting.
I had one patient, a former Division I college football player, who had chronic shoulder pain since the 1980s. He couldn’t raise his arm above 110 degrees. After a 30-minute treatment, he had a full range of motion and no pain. And then it stayed that way for a week when he came in for a follow-up. That blew my mind. And I had another Division I volleyball player, a female, with the same story. She had had chronic pain for six years in her shoulder. I did one treatment, and it was gone. She had undergone PT, injections, and all these other things, and nothing had worked. After this one treatment, her pain was relieved.
So, I contacted Travis from Erchonia, who had put together the study. I said, “Travis, I’m a little worried here. These results are so outrageous, that I don’t think the FDA is going to believe it. They’re going to look at this and say, ‘Oh, come on, there’s no way this person has been in pain for 40 years, and now all of a sudden, it’s gone like this.'” And he was like, “No, don’t worry about it. The two other clinics are getting the same results.” Because I’m blinded to what the other clinics are getting, and they’re blinded to me, so that way you can tell if there’s any cheating going on if one of the sites isn’t accurate. So, here it was, all consistent. And that just blew my mind.
Consistently, as we were using it on all the patients that came in for the study, literally 100% of the patients who received it experienced pain relief to some level, and it was pain relief that lasted. It wasn’t just, “Oh yeah, it’s good for a few hours.” And this is where, on the follow-up, they were still doing well.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s wild. Yeah, that’s gotta be fun.
Dr. Kirk Gair: It is. It’s fun. What’s been hard is not being able to talk about it for so long. It’s like I’ve had the keys to this Ferrari sitting in my garage, and I’ve been unable to even take pictures of it to show anyone, or take it out for a drive, or anything like that.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Have you been using it for anything other than that? Or is it strictly a case of, ‘No, you have to stick to the guidelines?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Well, you know, what’s interesting is that, as we were conducting these trials on patients, they also had other conditions. So, I had patients who were coming in for the neck and shoulder trial, but they also had issues like brain fog and different kinds of balance problems. They would say, ‘Hey, you know what? After that one session, my brain feels a lot clearer. I feel more focused, I have more energy.’ I had one patient with eczema on her arm, and she didn’t mention it, but it was almost gone after doing a single treatment on her, which just blew my mind. Again, that’s totally off-label, but it’s one of those unexpected secondary effects we’ve observed.
And I had one patient, a three-year-old kid who had drowned and was submerged for 10 minutes. They had tried all kinds of different treatments on him, with not much success. But when we used the lasers on him, you could see that as soon as the green laser was applied, he started to move instantly. There was a visible change throughout his body that we hadn’t seen with other lasers we’d used on him before, although we had seen good impacts with those as well. So, that was something.
Then, there was a college softball coach who took a 70-mile-an-hour line drive to the front of her tibia. It looked as if she’d just returned from Fallujah or something because it resembled a gunshot wound, basically. I have pictures of it in my Facebook group that are so graphic, that Facebook placed a warning on them, stating they might be too upsetting for sensitive viewers. You have to click to be able to see them. It was horrifically nasty. I thought she might need a skin graft or something. But we combined the FX and the GVL on it, and within a month, it had pretty much healed. You can hardly see any scarring, just a little bit of discoloration.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Amazing.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So, have you found that this new laser is replacing the volume from your other lasers, like the red laser or red-violet? Or is it just supplementing what they do?
Dr. Kirk Gair: So, what I’m doing now is using all three wavelengths together, because when you look at how these work, the violet laser impacts phases one and two of the respiratory chain, the green affects complex three, and the red targets complex four. By using these together, we achieve a greater impact on cellular activity and respiration, among other things. So, in the clinic, I’m combining all three for virtually all cases because we consistently get better results with this combination. That’s awesome.
Yeah, and when you look at some of the studies, especially on off-label applications, you find that violet light tends to have a significant effect in supporting the body against viruses, green shows really good support against bacteria, and red is effective against fungi. So, when you use all three, particularly over the gut, you’re offering a broad spectrum of support for the patient.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. That’s amazing. Dr. Trayford, do you have any experience with the green laser at all?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Not yet. I’m really excited to get my hands on one. I can imagine using that thing for a year and a half and not being able to tell anybody. Yeah, I’m super excited.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s super cool. What an amazing experience. So, over this past year and a half, how many patients in total were you seeing?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Well, we were just involved in the initial studies, so we had the laser for a brief period before we had to send it back. That was one of the hardest parts—having to return this laser after having it in our office. But we just recently got the prototype back. So you know.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Sorry, let me just back up, the one you were using was not actually a prototype; it was more like a prototype.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, it was the prototype used for the studies.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It doesn’t look like the one they announced, does it?
Dr. Kirk Gair: It looks like the old versions of the base station, the metallic one, but then it had this little champagne-colored tip to it. Despite that, it was still green and violet and had the same settings. Okay. But yeah, so I had to send that one in and then wait for them to release the new version.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Have both of you been to Erchonia headquarters?
Dr. Kirk Gair: I haven’t visited the headquarters myself.” “No.”
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, because I’m really curious if they have something like a laser museum. I mean, if you go there, and they’re serious about their history, I’d love to see if they have an exhibit showing the evolution of the lasers.
Dr. Kirk Gair: I believe the original one is around somewhere, yeah. What’s interesting is that, as I do these lectures across the country, different doctors will show up with old ones. But, I was giving a lecture in Southern California—it wasn’t even an Erchonia lecture, just a relicensing seminar—and this doctor showed me, ‘Hey, look at this. I take it with me everywhere.’ And he had a prototype from 1998. It looked like a big, like, RTD, with this big white brick and blue lettering on it. And it still works.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And it was Erchonia?
Dr. Kirk Gair: It was an Erchonia, one of the first ones they produced, and it still works. I think that’s a testament to the quality of the products they make, having a 24-year-old laser here that’s still functioning.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I’ve heard this from doctors we’ve talked to over the years, who have said that they own some of the first Erchonia lasers produced. And, just like the one mentioned, they still work. That’s why they continue to use them—they get great results with their patients.
Dr. Kirk Gair: So, they’re like Tonka Toys. Yeah, literally. You can almost throw them off something—I mean, I wouldn’t want to, especially with the handhelds. When I was at the Dodgers and Angels fantasy camp, I kept them in my pants while I was out there in the infield. And, you know, I dropped them a million times on the infield dirt, and they were still fine.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Still worked just fine, That’s incredible. Yeah.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Ever since we received the new model, every patient who comes into my office gets treated with the laser. We’ve conducted over 1,000 treatments since it arrived. Patients love it; they really notice the difference, especially the long-lasting effects. Many of my patients have traumatic brain injuries, concussions, and other long-term effects. Recently, we’ve also seen a lot of long-term COVID patients. We’re treating patients who’ve lost their sense of smell or taste, or who experience distorted taste. We use a combination of the three lasers on them while conducting different taste and smell stimulations, and we’re seeing their senses return.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I had a patient who initially came in primarily for heel pain. That cleared up fantastically; she did great with that treatment. However, she also had a loss of taste or experienced abnormal taste. We used the FX 405 on her, but she didn’t notice much change with that condition. So, I’m almost curious if using the combination or adding green into that mix, might make a difference. Have you seen a lot of long COVID cases at your clinic?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, absolutely. I think it was around May of 2020 when we started to label it essentially as a brain injury because it mimicked or paralleled so much of what we see with post-concussion syndrome—all the symptoms. So, naturally, those suffering from it were drawn to us, as we were so accustomed to treating those types of symptoms. And with the combination of laser, hyperbaric, and other modalities, it was absolutely a game-changer for these folks who were suffering.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Are you aware of any other conventional approaches to managing long COVID out there?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Conventionally? Nothing.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, as far as I know, there’s not much out there. I’ve had patients who’ve gone to their doctors, and they’ve been told, ‘Well, we don’t really have anything.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Are they prescribing medications for it, in some way, shape, or form?
Dr. Michael Trayford: For the anxiety components, You know, it’s quite aggressive because they sometimes resort to prescribing benzodiazepines.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Right, start a whole new cycle. Every time I hear stuff like that, I think of that scene in Uncle Buck with John Candy. He’s talking to his sister-in-law, saying he quit smoking cigarettes but has moved on to cigars now. And she’s like, ‘What do you mean?’ He explains he cycles through cigarettes, then cigars, next it’s pipes, then chewing tobacco. It seems like so often you’re trading one problem for another, which, in my opinion, is such archaic, backward thinking.
Like in Major Payne, when the guy’s leg is hurting, and Major Paynegrabs his finger, saying, ‘We’re gonna take care of that pain in your leg by focusing on the pain in your finger instead.’ It’s like trading one problem for another without really solving anything.
Dr. Kirk Gair: When I teach my courses, I mention a market report presented to pharmaceutical companies that highlighted excitement about COVID. They said, ‘Hey, guys, check this out. We can repurpose all these old drugs we had for Alzheimer’s, Parkinson’s, etc.’ And the companies this was presented to included AstraZeneca, Merck, Johnson & Johnson, and Pfizer—essentially, everyone involved in the vaccine effort. They were really excited about the prospect of repurposing these drugs, seeing it as an endless stream of opportunities. The goal wasn’t to fix the problem but to keep medicating it indefinitely.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s crazy. So, have you been using the combination treatment specifically for brain fog?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, so one of the things I like to do involves using the FX for transcranial LI and placing the GVL over the vagus nerve. We incorporate vagus nerve stimulation techniques, like gargling exercises, gag exercises, or singing, during the treatment. Additionally, I encourage patients to bring in foods and smells they both love and hate to trigger an emotional response and foster neuroplasticity in the brain. We gradually increase their tolerance to these stimuli.
I had a patient who, for nine months, experienced distorted taste and couldn’t stand anything she ate. By having her alternate between smells she liked and disliked, she gradually increased her tolerance. By the third session, she could taste minestrone soup without wanting to spit it out, a major improvement considering everything tasted rotten to her before. Through this process of exposing her to various smells and tastes, we managed to normalize her senses over approximately six sessions, though the duration varies from patient to patient. Dr. Trayford, I believe you’ve observed similar outcomes in your practice, right?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Absolutely, yeah. Incorporating all these elements—supporting immune function, transcranial treatments, which we do a lot of and gut laser therapy—plays a huge role in managing COVID-related symptoms. The gut-brain axis is particularly crucial. It’s not just about the direct treatment effects; it’s also about helping people feel better overall, motivating them to engage in self-care like walking and other activities.
What Dr. Garrett mentioned about smell therapies really resonates. Starting with very low metabolic rate activities is essential because many patients can’t tolerate more aggressive approaches to balance, vestibular rehabilitation, or movement therapies at first. We need to meet patients where they are, providing metabolically supportive therapies alongside some light neurological rehab.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I’m interested in the rationale behind triggering the emotional side in conjunction with the treatment. Could you talk a little bit about that?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Taking courses from Dr. Crosby was enlightening, especially regarding neuroplasticity. He emphasized that eliciting an emotional response significantly enhances the impact of stimulation. For example, at the start of his courses, he’d aim to ‘scare the crap out of wolves’ right off the bat, explaining that fear primes the brain for reorganization and learning. Inspired by this, I incorporated emotional triggers into my work with patients.
For instance, I use doTERRA essential oils, like the Christmas blend, with patients. Most people have strong, polarized feelings about the holidays—either fondness or aversion, but rarely indifference. The scent of cinnamon and pine can trigger a potent emotional response, setting the brain up for reorganization. It’s all about getting the brain into a state where it’s more receptive to change.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I would say these days, eliciting those types of emotional responses isn’t too difficult. Using images, showing past and current presidents, for instance, or even starting a conversation about politics can really do the trick.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Just mentioning COVID can be a trigger in itself during a session. Yeah, it’s a sensitive topic that can easily elicit strong responses.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s fascinating. It reminds me of our earlier conversation. One aspect of your practice, Kirk, that I find particularly intriguing is its unorthodox nature. I’m not sure if that’s the precise term, but what stands out to me is your innovative approach. And I love that. It seems essential for managing cases that present in unconventional ways. When symptoms or conditions defy traditional expectations, it feels like an unconventional approach is not just beneficial but necessary, don’t you think?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, it’s funny how everything I got in trouble for in school as a kid is what has made me more successful as a doctor. I was always told you can’t just do what everyone else is doing. I believed there was a better way to approach things, especially since we don’t have all the solutions. We’re often taught in school as if we’re getting all the answers, but that’s not true; knowledge and practices are always evolving. Many of us in chiropractic have a bit of a rebellious streak, choosing not to follow the mainstream path. It’s about thinking, ‘How can we blaze our own trails as mavericks?’
If there isn’t an existing answer, we look back on what we learned in school, seminars, and other experiences to innovate. It’s crucial to consider the involved pathways, metabolic processes, as Dr. Trayford mentioned, emotional and neurological processes, and how to influence them. The laser has a significant impact here. By exploring the body’s networks and loops, we can devise novel approaches.
For example, I had a patient with a brain injury who plateaued in his recovery. We broke through this by incorporating music therapy. I asked him to bring his bass guitar, and we played Metallica together during laser treatment. This provided tactile, musical, and emotional stimulation. It exemplifies how, when facing a deadlock, thinking outside the box and trying something new can make a difference.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s the beautiful part. As we’ve discussed before, the incredible safety of these lasers truly opens the door for immense creativity, especially for those eager to explore various treatment realms. In your practice, have you encountered similar experiences of thinking outside the box? Given the complex and sometimes rare cases you deal with, I’d imagine there’s only so much that literature or textbooks can offer. It must require an ability to think on the fly, logically piecing together what might make sense for each unique situation, right?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, as Kirk also mentioned, it really comes down to using your noggin. You’ve got the foundational knowledge, but it’s about how you can apply that creatively based on your experiences and creativity levels. I’m typically a left-brain thinker, so embracing creativity was a challenge I had to work on over time. Yet, drawing from the vast array of information accumulated over the years allows us to tackle, for example, the emotional components of certain conditions. We often see people who are emotionally stuck after severe traumatic brain injuries and neural storming episodes. When their nervous system settles, they’re left dealing with traumas, PTSD, and a disconnect from emoting or relating to others.
To assist, while conducting quantitative EEG or analyzing raw EEG data, we identify specific brainwave activities. For those overwhelmed with theta brainwaves, we tailor laser applications to balance their brainwave activity, complemented by neurofeedback. Creatively, we have them compile videos or photo series of significant moments with loved ones—marriages, graduations, their first pet. These are not just visuals; they’re tools for evoking emotional responses during neurofeedback sessions, replacing traditional methods like video games with personalized visual feedback. This approach uses positive emotional stimuli as a powerful mechanism to foster emotional reconnection and healing.”
This streamlined version maintains the essence of leveraging creativity and personal experience in treatment, focusing on innovative strategies for addressing complex emotional and neurological conditions.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Is the rationale behind that to use that emotion to supersede or override the negative emotions?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Not necessarily, because sometimes what we’re dealing with is more apathetic, withdrawal, or a flat affect. What we’re trying to do is really engage those emotional centers and then gradually shift towards more cognitive-based activities, aiming for more frontal lobe activation. The goal is to forge a stronger connection between the deeper limbic structures and the frontal lobe, which is crucial because there’s often a significant disconnect in individuals, especially those who have suffered diffuse axonal injuries where the entire brain has been impacted.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Dr. Berry said that neurogenesis is kind of the holy grail in neurology. But we’re also talking about neuroplasticity, as well as where these concepts fit in terms of hierarchy. You have neurogenesis and neuroplasticity. I think they’re both obviously very important and helpful, not only in discussing developmental and degenerative issues but also in long-term COVID. How do these concepts fit into the creative aspects of what you guys are discussing?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, I mean, obviously, these are two completely different areas we can explore. With neurogenesis, we’re forming new nerve cells all the time, and this process can be facilitated or enhanced by things like laser therapy, hyperbaric treatments, and metabolic and nutritional protocols. However, there’s a ‘use it or lose it’ aspect that ties back to plasticity. If we’re forming new cells but just sitting on the couch all day, it doesn’t really matter.
And then, when it comes to plasticity, as we often discuss with patients, it’s a double-edged sword. People hear the word ‘plasticity’ and think it’s always positive. But there’s also the dark side of neuroplasticity or maladaptive neuroplasticity, so we need to harness it for good. Educating folks on steering neuroplasticity in the right direction is crucial. At the end of the day, I’d say we work more within the plasticity model than the neurogenesis model if we were to compare them. But, it’s important to respect that neurogenesis is happening, and we can maximize its benefits by fully engaging in activities that promote plasticity.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, I agree with that analogy of yin and yang; it’s really about finding a balance between neurogenesis and neuroplasticity. Another critical component is the impact of lasers on glial cells, especially in patients with traumatic brain injuries. Laser therapy can beneficially modulate glial cell activation, potentially halting the destructive process that can become chronic, as I’ve experienced firsthand with numerous concussions from playing football.
We aim to create a fertile ground for neurogenesis, likening brain-derived neurotrophic factor to ‘Miracle-Gro for your brain,’ which prepares the brain for growth. But as Dr. Crayford emphasized, fostering positive habits is essential to guide this growth beneficially, avoiding maladaptive plasticity.
I was also reminded by Dr. Murphy about the dangers of modern distractions like smartphones and social media, which can deplete dopamine receptors, highlighting the need for mindfulness in our digital interactions. This extends to ensuring children experience boredom and quiet moments, recognizing these as valuable for emotional development. Nutrition also plays a vital role in avoiding neurotoxic substances to create the right environment for the brain. When combined with laser therapy, these strategies enhance the brain’s healing and growth potential.
Dr. Chad Woolner: As we’re discussing, I find myself puzzled yet understanding the divide between conventional and functional neurology. How could a conventional doctor, fully immersed in traditional systems, react to these discussions? It’s clear there’s a disconnect between functional neurology and conventional neurology, yet I wonder about the potential for constructive dialogue between them. Have your attempts to engage in such discussions been successful, and if not, why? Is bridging this gap worthwhile, or should the focus remain on advancing functional neurology independently?
Functional neurology seems to prioritize exploring effective, novel approaches for addressing brain and bodily health, whereas my limited observation suggests conventional neurology focuses more on diagnosis and management, like identifying stroke locations and prescribing physical therapy and medications. This isn’t to diminish the value of conventional methods but to question whether there’s room for dialogue and mutual enrichment between these perspectives. What are your experiences with this, and how do you see the future of these interactions?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Sure. So there’s a lot in that.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I know. Take your time.
Dr. Michael Trayford: In general, we have great relationships with many different types of providers, including primary care practitioners, physiatrists, psychiatrists, etc. However, when it comes to conventional neurology, that’s where our relationships aren’t the strongest. Conventional neurology, as initially learned, is very linear, focusing on specific pathways and nerve tracks—essentially, neuroanatomy. It also heavily relies on a cause-and-effect approach: you have a symptom, you take this pill to see if it helps; if not, you might consider surgery.
Functional neurology, on the other hand, is multimodal. At its core, it’s sensory-based, using modalities that feed the brain information to improve its output, whether physical or cognitive.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Sorry to interrupt you real quick, but it seems that functional neurology adopts a far more holistic approach by taking a wide range of considerations into account. From my perspective, this holistic approach appears to be where the future is heading. We discussed today how functional neurology is increasingly integrating aspects of functional medicine. So, yeah, that seems to be the direction things are moving toward.
Dr. Michael Trayford: You’re right, functional neurology considers the intricate connections between the body and brain, including the gut-brain axis. Its strength lies in its multimodal approach, which transcends simple cause-and-effect. This makes it challenging to study functional neurology as a whole since you can’t easily blind studies against multiple modalities. For instance, I presented a study in France on how whole-body vibration affects EEG output, which is straightforward to isolate and study. However, that’s just one aspect of the myriad of tools we use in functional neurology.
As clinicians first and foremost, our priority is on clinical outcomes, not solely on publishing papers. Our approach is outcomes-based, and while I always emphasize this in my talks, it would be ideal if research models evolved to accommodate the multimodal nature of our practice. Each therapy we employ, from lasers to vibration therapy, is supported by extensive research and is evidence-based in its own right. Yet, when these therapies are combined under the umbrella of functional neurology, there’s hesitation, despite the potential for significant patient benefits. It’s a shift in perspective that could truly enhance how we evaluate and recognize the impact of functional neurology.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So many different variables. How do you even begin to tease out what is doing what, in what combination? To what degree?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah. And I think a big difference, too, is that this takes me back to the functional medicine seminars I attended with Dr. Kharrazian over a decade ago. I remember one medical doctor stood up, and the question was raised about lab tests. Why are they interpreted differently in functional medicine? So, we had a few MDs, and they said, ‘Listen, you guys gotta understand. We weren’t taught in school to interpret the results. We were taught that if this is low, you give this medication, and this is how you give that medication. We weren’t taught to think about the processes that are going on.’ So, they were there to relearn this method. It’s kind of like they have to unlearn what they were taught, which was a system. I think it’s going to be even worse in the future because, you know, Kaiser now has its own medical school in California. Callie Kaiser has its own medical school. Yeah, they actually just opened it a few years ago.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think that they’ve opened it called Kaiser Medical Schools.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, they’re developing their own medical programs. So these doctors are going to be trained in the Kaiser method, which, basically, I have a lot of nurses who work for Kaiser, and who’ve been there for decades. And they said it sucks now because they aren’t allowed to use their brains. They said, there are multiple nurses, and they said, “We can’t.” Like they said, the patient can come in, and based on their clinical years of training and everything, they know what they’ve got, they can assess them there and say, “This is the medication we need.” But the guys will say, “No, you need to go through this algorithm, this process.” And it’s all a certain process that’s designed for the benefit, not so much of the patient, but of the system. So these doctors are going to be sales reps with a degree, pretty much. And so the doctors are going to come out, and they’re going to be taught the Kaiser method of how to manage these cases. And so they’re going to be really just trained not to think, not to be like, as you’re talking about, doing these things that are outside the box, that are Maverick kind of things. So it’s a different approach. We were kind of taught as chiropractors really to be Mavericks because the history of our profession has been Mavericks, being outsiders, we’re not bound by what is the usual and customary stuff because we’re not usual and customary. So that also gives us some freedom to do these types of things that a conventional neurologist has to follow what is the protocol that their state board says they have to do, whereas we have this freedom to, we can throw these other things out and not be the typical kind of mainstream approach there.
Dr. Michael Trayford: We’re human beings too. We can’t fit into a flowchart, right? Human beings with individual brains that are so different from one another, and then you have a brain that’s been injured. I tell people all the time, if you’ve seen one brain injury, you’ve seen one brain injury. Exactly. So if we go into that approach, you know, that flowchart approach, you know, this equals this, and if not, do that, it’s just not going to work with the human system.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The problem that I see with those systems as well, because we’re starting to see a little bit of that to some degree out in Idaho, is that they will place, again like you said, the system above the patient, meaning that they set up these arbitrary rules in terms of inter-referral. If it means referring to an outside doctor who is better suited for that patient versus an inside doctor within the system, you know what the choice is going to be. And it’s like, look, I can appreciate business to a degree. But when you start towing that line where all of a sudden it’s coming at the detriment to the patient, not for the benefit of the patient, like, I’m of that mindset. And it’s not like this land of fluffy altruism and Kumbaya. But I believe that there’s this kind of happy middle ground where good business and good patient outcomes can merge together. Doing what’s best for the patient can also be good for the bottom line too. But the problem, again, is that so many of these systems have been so myopically focused on the betterment of the system rather than the betterment of the patient. And so that’s the, and again, kind of going back to the full circle where we started with this, is that I think is the thing that I appreciate about functional neurology, and I’d even say just broadly kind of what you’re saying Kirk about the profession. When I first graduated from Cairo, let me backup. For those who aren’t aware of chiropractic college, I’ll give you a quick primer on the chiropractic profession. When I first, so my backstory is, long story short, my wife was in a car accident, and we took her to a chiropractor. I had very minimal experience with chiropractic or chiropractors and had such a great experience with the chiropractor. I was in school, I was going to be a dentist. I started observing with this chiropractor and was so blown away by it that we went and took a tour of Western States Chiropractic College, now the University of Western States, in Portland. Where do you go to school? By the way, Kirk.
Dr. Kirk Gair: It used to be LACS. Now it’s Southern California University.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And you again, we’re in New York, So Western States. I had a conversation with him, at the time, I think he was the dean of the school. He sat down and talked with me and my wife. And he said, ‘You have to understand something about chiropractic. Chiropractic is a spectrum.’ And I’m like, ‘What do you mean?’ I didn’t know. He says, ‘Well, on one end of the spectrum, you have very philosophically based, and Western States was very unabashedly at that time, very, we’ll just say it anti and pride, still, to this day, very anti, kind of principle-based chiropractic, or philosophic for the lay public. This means, on one side of the spectrum, chiropractors hold very true to the original tenets and philosophies of chiropractic, that this idea of the subluxation, a misalignment in the spine for lack of, and we can talk about the nuances. But this is just the super glossed-over version of it. Misalignments are at the root of all disease.’ And so then, along that spectrum, you have all the way on the other opposite end, very medically based chiropractors and chiropractic schools and training programs that look very similar are akin to physical therapy, right? That happens to have to adjust, and then basically everything in between, okay. And so with that, when I finished school, I remember wanting to pull my hair out because I hated the fact that there was so much diversity. And what I’ve come to find now is the exact opposite. As crazy as it sounds, I love to recognize that that can cause some potential challenges in terms of public perception and or, you know, public understanding. I get that I do. However, the beautiful side of it, the flip side of that coin, it’s like two sides of the coin, right? The flip side of that coin is that I love the fact that there is such diversity because what it means is there are such a variety of approaches to better serve patients who don’t fit into the conventional boxes. And that’s a lot of times what we, as chiropractors, see are a lot of the kind of unconventional types of cases that Dr. Crawford you were talking about that you see, and I’m sure again, Dr. Gary, you see as well that don’t necessarily fit into that. And so I think that’s one side of one way of looking at it is yes, standardization can be a good thing. But I also think too much standardization can stifle a certain level of clinical thinking and clinical agility. We’ll call it right clinical agile illness in terms of being able to pivot and make good decisions and creative, even creative decisions on the fly that we’re talking about here.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, and patients are hungry for that, too. Dr. Draper was sharing with me a story about a video that he posted on his page. He’s got a really cool social media page with a lot of cool videos on there. If you could tell him about that one with the kid that you told me about that went viral, I mean, that’s a really cool story, as you said.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Excuse me, it was one of those moments we just happened to capture on film while we were doing some muscle work essentially with this child while he’s on hold by the vibration plate. He had a stroke at birth. And we got to, you know, how old was this kid? About three, okay, had a stroke at birth, and we started seeing probably about six to eight months ago, and they’ve been back again. We got this moment where he was able to voluntarily turn his head, we just got this on film, it was 15 seconds. And it just hit the airwaves, so to speak. And, you know, weeks later, we had 17 million people that had seen that video, and four or 5000 that had shared it, it just completely went viral. Because, excuse me, it struck a chord. Because it was outside the box. It wasn’t necessarily a lot of people calling it a certain protocol. And there was no protocol involved. It was just listening to this child’s nervous system and what we were doing to it and how it would respond, which kind of goes back to traditional chiropractic philosophy. Sure, I said, you know, becoming a functional neurologist and a chiropractic neurologist over time if anything, it bolstered the philosophy that I had lost.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I agree, it’s quite amusing that your sentiment is nearly identical to what Brandon Brock shared. If you look at Brandon Brock, he initially became a chiropractor and then pursued various advanced degrees, similar to Dr. Kharrazian’s path. Brock obtained numerous credentials, including functional neurology, PA, soon-to-be Ph.D., Doctor of Nursing, and more. He expressed the same sentiment as you did, emphasizing that gaining diverse perspectives has actually strengthened the original philosophy of chiropractic. Regarding my experience at Western States, although it was a great experience, the school’s stance leaned heavily towards scientific, evidence-based approaches. While attending, I perceived that there was a belief that schools with a more philosophical basis were inferior in terms of education and clinical abilities. However, upon reflection, I’ve come to appreciate the brilliance of the original chiropractic philosophy. It’s often misinterpreted, simplifying it to the idea that the subluxation is the root of all disease, which is not accurate. Even the most dedicated, philosophically based chiropractors understand that it’s more nuanced than that. Additionally, when discussing the original principles of chiropractic, we must avoid presentism, judging the founders against modern standards. Considering the context of their time, their approach was not as radical as it may seem in comparison to contemporary medical practices. Returning to your point, it’s a common sentiment that the more education one gains, the more one realizes how much they still have to learn. It’s akin to the Socratic notion that the more you know, the more you realize you know nothing. You know, that Kool-Aid.
Dr. Kirk Gair: We were just talking about this. Was it yesterday or earlier today? When I graduated from chiropractic school, I thought I knew so much, right? And then it was this morning, we were talking about this. And now I find myself much more often saying, you know, I don’t know, but let me look into that. Yeah. And that was one of the things I learned from my good friend, Dr. Datis Kharrazian. Here’s a guy who, as you said, alphabet soup, absolutely brilliant. I’ve known him since the ’90s when we were classmates together, and I saw him, who’s probably the most well-read person I know. I would hear him say that to people when they’d ask him a question. If he knew it, he knew it, and if he didn’t, he’d be like, “I don’t know. I don’t know, there are certain things we just don’t know.” And I thought that’s really refreshing to see because so often people won’t do that. It reminds me of ” You Love to reference movies, reminds me of “Fast Times at Ridgemont High” when Mr. Han writes on the board, “I don’t know.” I like that. I believe your words on the board, Mr. Spicoli, all day. And I liked that he was able to say, “I don’t know.” But in going back to talking about the philosophy of things, I was talking with Kharrazian. He was talking about how they were doing these functional MRIs on patients to see what things you could do to activate different neural networks. And he said, one of the most powerful things they showed was when you did adjustments, boom, it lit everything up, like you just saw this enhanced neuronal activity and blood flow and whatnot, again, showing the power of what an adjustment does to the brain.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The thing that I’ve found that’s been really reassuring to me in terms of our profession is, the more you talk to really, really high-level researchers and really smart guys, you’ll find there’s a tremendous amount of scientific validity to, and we’ll even do broader than just the adjustments, but manual therapies. The problem is, as seemingly simplistic as it is, you know, it’s really not in terms of like, for instance, let’s talk about designing a study with a laser versus designing a study with an adjustment, or again, any type of manual hands-on therapy. You know, how do you create a sham for that compared to a sham for a laser? A sham for lasers is relatively, in terms of those two things, a lot easier to develop. And so, therefore, the scientific method becomes, and you know what I’m saying? Like, how do you, you know, it’s such a complex, you know, process, and therapeutic intervention, you know, really, really challenging to study that out. So fascinating. Very, very fascinating. Yeah.
Dr. Kirk Gair: It’s challenging to be consistent with people’s adjusting techniques. With a laser, we could specify, “We’re going to use this laser at this wavelength, at this distance, for this amount of time,” and that’s it. Yeah, boom, and there’s nothing else going on there. Whereas with an adjustment, if you take all four of us, we probably adjust differently. You know, hey, can we get a different result? And depending on the patient, you have, you know, I know some patients respond well to one type of adjustment, or horribly to a different type. Yeah, some who love instrument adjusting, and some who hate it.
Dr. Michael Trayford: I’m talking about instruments there, you can, you know, look at velocity, amplitude, things like that. But then again, there’s that hands-off approach that may be more therapeutic for the person than the instrument itself. Yeah. So there are so many dynamics that make it virtually impossible to quantify. Yeah, sure. But then again, from that subluxation perspective, if we just take that word away and use neurological impediment. Sure, right? We can measure when people are not seeing, hearing, or feeling appropriately. Yeah. So why not use those measurements to quantify, which we do every day?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, we use some cool stuff in your office for further testing to get those objective outcomes.
Dr. Michael Trayford: where, you know, you just measure and manage, you know, you’ve gotten clinical wisdom on top of that, but there’s a lot we can measure accurately, like lasers. So that’s where the research needs to go. So we can prove best, you know, that what we’re doing works.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And that’s cool whenever I talk to docs who do a lot more of this advanced stuff, but also continue to incorporate manual adjusting in their clinics because they recognize the power, and then they go.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, well, and even we talked about, you know, we’ve been discussing ways you can integrate lasers, let’s even just get the laser on the body. Penny and I were doing the wave a couple of months ago. And we’ve done the Life West Wave. So one of the administrators of Life West had a stroke, and he had some deficits from that. So he went over to the booth across from us, which was the WAVi booth. And you know, the new kind of EEG one that’s the partner with Crocs to make a new kind of helmet that doesn’t have all the blues and stuff like that. So he had got this EEG done beforehand or this imaging of his brain mapping done beforehand. Then he came over and sat under the effects for 10 minutes. And then he went back; he wanted to guinea pig himself and see what that device, its reading, its mapping, showed differently. And when the guy reran it, he’s like, “Well, you don’t really need to rerun it; it’s like an hour.” He said, “I want to see what happened.” He was blown away because he saw such a startling difference in 10 minutes. After all, you could see the clear deficits were even marked with what was going on with the activity in his brain. And it’s got an X on there for where there’s a deficit. And you see a huge change on the readouts on there to where the guy who was running it comes over, and he’s like the owner of the company. So what did you guys do? I’ve never seen a change this fast. He said, “The differences we’ve seen from this scan to that one would normally take months of rehab. You guys did it in a 10-minute session an hour apart. We’ve never seen this before.” So that was really cool because Penny and I didn’t know that this was being done. He didn’t know that we were doing a laser, so we were both kind of blinded to what the other one was doing. So there was no way to influence this. And to see that objective result was just really cool in such a short time.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think because you’ve talked about this to Dr. Crayford, I think that one of the most straightforward and yet really, really exciting realms of laser therapy is the laser in conjunction with QEEG, seeing where that’s going. And I think there is going to be so much of a tremendous opportunity. We’ve been talking with Dr. Marc Funderlich about that. And that’s one of the things he’s really excited about in terms of the promise of what that can do. Because the thing about QEEG is, number one, it’s non-invasive. Number two, it’s a standard, accepted bridge, if you will, if you’re talking because we’ve talked about this a lot with him is that there are a lot of different neurological programs out there with different tools that measure this, that, or the other and make that claim. But the question is, is that viewed amongst others? You know, the gold standard? Yeah, exactly. In terms of if you were to talk to a Ph.D. or medical doctor, would they accept that as a clinically valid form of assessment of any type of objective measurement? And many, if not most of these different things that are popping up just wouldn’t, they’re like, “Now, that’s not QEEG.” QEEG is viewed as a gold standard of sorts in terms of a type of measurement. And so, that being said, what a huge opportunity there is to be able to gather that data, both pre and post using lasers to quantify the type of impact in a very, very sophisticated way.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Absolutely, yeah, I’ve just a quick thing I can share with that. And it is viewed, you know, the QEEG and even sLoreta imaging, now the new advent of being able to go subcortical and look at activity. So, you know, this is well-accepted within the mental health world. Yeah, and it’s all, you know, Masters and PhD level that are working on these things. In fact, there was quite a bit of study that went on with QEEG 10, 15, and 20 years ago, the funding is just not there anymore at the big universities. But, you know, I did, I think we had talked about it. I had done a three-hour workshop at the International Society for Neuroregulation research, their annual convention in Florida here just a couple of months ago. We did a real-time study, we had somebody with a cap on, and we saw real-time sLoreta imaging, which is basically low-resolution electromagnetic tomography. So what we’re looking at is just real-time standard deviation differences from the database norms. We saw this person had very, very low alpha brainwave activity, posterior cingulate emotional regulation, shifting of attention, and things like that, and this person had very strong OCD-type tendencies. So we basically just got the laser there, and we put it on a SMR setting. We just have between 12 and 15 hertz, kind of varying between 12 and 15 hertz, this is a red laser. And we started to see immediate real-time shifts, and you know, what we see is bluing on the screen meaning very low end of activity, you know, three standard deviations or so below the database norms for alpha brainwave activity. And the posterior part of the brain is where alpha activity is generated, you know, thalamic cortical film accordingly, based input from the physical body, you know, brainwave activity is generated from the physical body, but we can measure that have an impact on it with the laser, but then also to get them on a vibration plate while we’re doing the laser and see an even bigger shift. In this case, we didn’t have a vibration plate, so we just had a handheld vibration device, we actually just put it behind their back and they sat back on it. And we saw an even bigger change now because of that coactivation between the laser and the vibration device. But again, real-time changes that we were able to boost that activity, you know, the more kind of relaxed-focused SMR sensorimotor rhythm type of activity in that posterior cingulate. And then after, you know, you can just see this woman just started feeling more relaxed. He, she got up there, and she was really very tense. She was very tense when she started and to my surprise, she even volunteered for it. I think I just kind of pointed out that it came up. But you know, when she was done even in front of all these people with OCD, she was really, you know, she was feeling really, really good. And of course, that’s anecdotal. You know, she just felt that, but we saw it. So we got her enough to tell us we saw that her brain was more relaxed.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And so we’ve talked about this before on previous episodes, but maybe for those who are listening, explain how it is, or at least our present understanding of the fact that I’m assuming that, in order to reach those areas of the brain, you have to have a sufficient level of power to be able to penetrate. What’s the prevailing theory? I find how you’re able to get instantaneous feedback. Without the power part of this equation, you know, what’s actually physiologically happening? And, again, correct me if I’m wrong, and you guys can talk about this in a much more clear manner. But from the way I understand it is this cell-to-cell-to-cell-to-cell communication, it’s like real-time, right? You’re signaling, right? And then instantaneously, almost like the nervous system in terms of voltage potential propagating across the channels.
Dr. Kirk Gair: That’s kind of unrealistic. If you look at a lot of the interesting research that’s coming out, you’re looking at the cells as not just the cells, but the whole body as being like a fiber optic network, pretty much, because what a lot of people don’t understand is that your cells actually release biophotons. And they communicate via these biophotons, these bioluminescent photons that are coherent light, so it’s like a laser light, it’s not incoherent, and you’re not like an LED, it’s an actually coherent pulse that’s released, and they contain quantum quanta of information. So they’re saying that the cells in the brain and throughout the body will communicate instantaneously through these biophotons that happen. So when you’re looking at a lot of times people think, Oh, well, you got to penetrate deeply to the brain. Well, if you want to have a thermal impact, you’ve got to do a penetration there. But when we’re dealing with neural networks, that’s not what the research is showing us. Because this use, for example, is we’re talking about these green, the violet in the red wavelength lasers. So we’re really focused on what the visible wavelength lasers are, the electron volt, because that’s where a lot of the magic happens that is photochemical and creates a chain of reaction. So for example, we take the violet wavelength laser, which has the highest energy per photon. And just to give you an idea for every second that says the FX is on, if it’s the FX four or five, combined red and violet, 180 quadrillion photons come up per second on there. So it’s not billions if not trillions. It’s quadrillions that come out every single second that it’s on. So these photons are coming out. Research from the University of Stanford said that, if you have a particular photon of the right wavelength to where it has the right energy, it can trigger a reaction that can change that can trigger molecular reactions in the order of thousands to tens of thousands per photon. So it gives you an idea of how these individual photons create this domino effect.
Dr. Chad Woolner: In a sense, can we quickly speak in simpler terms about the difference between a photon and an electron volt?
Dr. Kirk Gair: So, a photon is simply a packet of light, an individual light particle. Each one has a specific energy level and a specific voltage. For example, a violet laser would have 3.06 electron volts, while an infrared laser, at around 800 nanometers or longer, has 1.49 electron volts. So, an infrared laser has half the energy of a violet laser per photon. A green laser has around 2.33 electron volts per photon, and a red laser has approximately 1.94 electron volts. The significance of this lies in the fact that in order to excite an electron and make it jump to a higher orbit, you need a minimum threshold of 1.7 electron volts. With visible lasers, such as violet, green, or red lasers, there are certain things we can do that we can’t do with infrared lasers due to basic physics. Each type of laser has its own unique photochemical effects, as opposed to the photothermal or photodynamic effects of infrared lasers. For instance, when we apply a violet laser to the body, it excites electrons in molecules like NADH, collagen, elastin, or porphyrins, causing them to jump to higher orbits. This triggers various electron transfers and enzymatic processes. When these excited electrons return to their lower orbits, the cell releases its own coherent biophoton, typically of a red-shifted wavelength. This process creates a cascade of signaling within the body. Additionally, research from the USSR has shown that applying a visible red laser to a peripheral nerve can induce EEG excitation in the brain almost instantaneously. These biophotons propagate through the myelin sheath and microtubules, as well as through the mitochondria, faster than nerve impulses. In fact, Russian studies have demonstrated that cells can communicate via light of different wavelengths, even inducing similar reactions in other cells without physical contact. When we use coherent laser light, we’re not just causing a thermal impact; we’re inducing a photochemical impact, creating fluorescent photons in specific molecules. This concept drastically alters our understanding of cellular communication and explains why we can achieve rapid changes in muscle strength or other physiological parameters within seconds of laser application. Essentially, by using lasers, we’re speaking the language of cells through light communication.
Dr. Chad Woolner: This shouldn’t be too crazy, because even in the most simplistic way of thinking about it, right, this is precisely how our eyes work, right? If we turned off the lights here in the room right now, I’m confident that on EEG or whatever else we’re looking at, we would see a difference in terms of brain activity versus light being signaled, you know?
Dr. Kirk Gair: what happens every year when we do this stupid fallback thing, right? People are depressed people already are you get upset about it before it happens. This is gonna suck. There’s gonna be nothing but darkness and it’s really depressing. And I was talking with one of the guys from Norway, and he lives somewhere so far up north that they get like 23 hours of darkness in the peak of winter, and 23 hours of light in the summer. So I asked him, I said, Hey, man, what’s it like during that? He said, well, in wintertime, you know, everything is really dark. And we all know, everybody, we sleep all day, everybody is depressed, and we drink lots and lots of water. I’m like, Alright, what’s it like in summer, all summer is great. I don’t need to sleep very much, three, or four hours a night, everybody is happy. We get lots of lots of work done. And we still drink lots and lots of water. So it shows Yeah, we’re light reactive. You know, we forget about that. But people get depressed just so there’s no sunlight. And that affects all these different chemicals in the brain.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it’s amazing.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Are there any other cell signaling interventional therapies like laser that you’re aware of that have the same kind of effect as laser therapy does? It’s surprising. Some things have similar signaling impacts that we’re looking for in the body, that you’re aware of, like?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Well, there’s been sound therapy; there are a lot of studies showing that applying 528 hertz of music to the rat brain stimulated testosterone production. So you can do things with sound therapy. Are there any other treatments or therapies you’re aware of that have similar effects?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, we’re frequency-based creatures, so we respond to electrical and vibrational stimuli. Essentially, anything with a frequency can affect us.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Who’s that guy? I know there’s a guy, or maybe there are other guys, who demonstrate this phenomenon by putting sand on a table and then using a specific device or method to create patterns.
Dr. Kirk Gair: I don’t know the name, but it’s a Jelani plate, so you can put it with a co Chalabi.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You look like that. And you’re like this. This is not coincidental?
Dr. Kirk Gair: No. So, yeah, you have specific frequencies. What’s amazing too is if you look at this— if you guys are listening, even just check on YouTube for ‘sand on a vibration plate at specific frequencies.’ You’ll find videos of this phenomenon. I actually have one saved. It’s about a three-minute video. I can send it to you guys. They use a Jelani plate or something similar. When you turn it on with specific frequencies, as the sound resonates, it creates distinct geometric patterns. Interestingly, these patterns resemble mandalas often found in Indian artwork, representing different sounds and chakras. As you change the frequencies, you’ll observe various specific geometric patterns that are truly beautiful. This demonstrates how different frequencies, whether in sound or light, impact our cellular structure, which responds to these frequencies as our cells form a crystalline matrix.
Dr. Michael Trayford: And you know, the coupling of these therapies. We use a lot of whole-body vibration, employing different types of vibration with varying excursions—trying planar versus vertical only, among others—across a wide range of frequencies from 10 to 60 hertz, essentially. But at the end of the day, a certain frequency will impact the microbiome, another will impact the cerebellum, and yet another will affect more peripheral nerves and proprioceptors. This just goes to show that cells are clearly communicating with one another. If a particular frequency isn’t having as significant an impact on your gut microbiome as another setting, it’s all about resonance, all about frequencies. Coupling that with laser therapy, coupling that with sound-based therapies, coupling that with electrical stimulation— that’s where the magic happens.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s wild. We could quite literally talk about this for hours and still just scratch the surface. What will be really interesting to see over the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years is how it evolves. From what I foresee, at least, based on what’s happening with Erchonia, is that we’ll see more and more research that clearly proves and delineates the effects of different wavelengths. You’ll have very clear protocols, almost like recipes, where certain wavelengths are used for specific indications. Yet ironically, even with all this knowledge, there will still be so much unknown that requires the creativity of practitioners. That aspect, I don’t think, will ever go away.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Absolutely, that’s part of the excitement and challenge of the field. Having all the answers would take away from the journey of discovery and the satisfaction of figuring things out along the way. It’s like playing a video game with cheat codes; sure, it might make things easier temporarily, but it removes the thrill of exploration and problem-solving.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, exactly. Metallica will still always be therapeutic.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Absolutely, playing the guitar can be a great way to unwind and channel your emotions creatively.
Dr. Chad Woolner: If there is one thing we learned from that series, Stranger Things, it’s that Metallica always saves the day. Absolutely, man. Absolutely. You know, my teenage self, if I were to go back in time in a time machine and tell him that I would be having a podcast interview with doctors about Metallica, I would be… I’m serious with you. So we were doing a webinar. Do you remember this? And we had a doctor on the webinar. Her name is Dr. Jennifer Hammett. And Kirk Hammett. It’s Kirk Hammett’s sister. No, it is. She’s a chiropractor. And I was like, I had like this like I don’t like, we’re not worthy. That’s good. That’s so funny. Because like, for me, I don’t get starstruck very easily. I’ve met famous people. It’s like, cool. Hey, you met a famous person, you know? Because Metallica had such an influential part in my upbringing. And I mean, that’s how I learned how to play guitar. I was listening to Metallica. I mean, they were a big part of my teenage years. There was this moment when she was there where I was like, holy cow. This is Kirk Hammett’s sister. I know that’s, yeah. And so but she’s, she’s been there, chiropractor, she’s she’s adjusted all the members of Metallica and stuff. And so it sounds so good. I know. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So yeah. Anyway, it’s just funny, though. So yeah, I was gonna say that the younger Chad’s 16-17-year-old Chad would have been so excited to learn that your future is going to be podcasting about Metallica. Absolutely. This is like the pinnacle for health reasons.
Dr. Andrew Wells: For therapy, are your mom and dad driving you mad?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, you know what’s funny? It’s a whole other rabbit hole we’re not going to go down, but I’ll just say it’s really interesting to see the intergenerational difference. My parents hated Metallica. Thankfully, they were always cool. But I remember, in general, parents of that generation didn’t like that type of music. Oh yeah, my kids? I listen to Metallica with my kids now and I’m like, no big deal, you know what I mean? So maybe that just says something about my parenting, but anyway, you know.
Dr. Kirk Gair: The kids’ music these days makes me hesitate, it’s not aggressive. It’s very trance-like, very monotone, it’s a whole different vibe. So when you think about that’s another rabbit hole you’re going down? It’s how’s that impacting their brain chords? Right? Yeah, it is. Literally, as a musician, I listen to stuff and I’m like, I could bang this out in no time. Frequency is so difficult to disrupt. It’s because it’s just locked in, on a track.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You look at what that is frightening, in fact, that you said that because now all of a sudden, it’s making sense because when my son listens to the stuff, he listens to a lot of this rap music. That’s ’cause I listened to rap in high school, too, stuff that’s what I was just gonna say is, it’s totally what you just said. There isn’t exactly, yeah, it’s so monitored.
Dr. Michael Trayford: There’s a tightening, there’s, for comedians, I play music for chords. And they liked the top 35 songs and they went and played it all on the same four chords. It was brilliant.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, it’s called the Axis of Awesome. I don’t know if you guys have seen this, but I think so. I used to play in a band. And we wrote this one song that was like the one everybody went nuts for. And I was so proud of that song until I saw The Stupid Axis.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome. Same chords.
Dr. Kirk Gair: Yeah, it’s wild. Even Lady Gaga, all of her hits use the same four chords. Yeah, ‘Don’t Stop Believin” by Journey, it’s the same four chords. But this really fascinates me too. As we talked about, when we bring up frequencies, is there something in those frequencies, and in that specific sequence of frequencies, that triggers all of us to love it? And for some reason, we do love it. We feel inspired. We want to hear more. Even the New Year’s Eve song, ‘Auld Lang Syne,’ is called Canon in D by Pachelbel. You know, these are all the same four chords, and for some reason, this resonates with us. So, like, when we look at lasers, when we look at different things, it’s like a recipe, man. It’s a recipe.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Same with movies, right? It’s the same format. Like, you can take the formula, and if you don’t mess with it, you can wear it. Yeah, exactly. So fascinating, man. All right, we went down some amazing rabbit holes. But it was worth it. It was worth it, everybody. So anyway, Dr. Kirk Gair, and Dr. Michael Trayford, thank you guys so much for being here with us. This was a ton of fun having this conversation. We appreciate you guys and all the incredible work that you’re doing for Erchonia and your communities, well beyond. So thank you.
Dr. Kirk Gair: check out your site, and your Instagram.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s your handle?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Its Apex brain centers.
Dr. Michael Trayford: There is a lot of cool stuff on there, really good quality videos on there too.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And for the doctors listening. Dr. Kirk Gair. Facebook groups are great as well. We talked about it before. Yeah, What’s the name of the Facebook group?
Dr. Kirk Gair: Dr. Gair’s, laser therapy, treatment, and marketing secrets. And it’s great because it’s such an interactive group. Yeah. It’s not. It’s not like it’s me running the show on people. I’m not like that, I’m not the guru. Everybody’s a guru there. People share their expertise because we all have our little different things and then someone can be a brand new laser, but do something stumble on saying, wow, this really works. Yeah. And they’ll share it with a group.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s not for everybody. It’s a non-denominational group as well so we got Doctors in there who are using other lasers beyond Erchonia lasers. That’s cool, too. And across the globe, too. Yeah. Yeah. So it’s awesome. Kirk made me an admin there. And so it’s really cool for me to correct both. And it’s really cool because I see all the requests come. It’s growing like crazy doc. So come join the conversation. It’s been fantastic. So awesome. Thanks, everybody. We hope that this has been incredibly valuable, and we will talk to you all in the next episode. Have a good one. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show, be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as the Erchonia e community where you can access free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.
About The Guest(s):
Dr. Kirk Gair has been using Erchonia lasers since 2004 and has played a pivotal role as one of the principal investigators in clinical trials exploring innovative laser technologies for treating chronic neck and shoulder pain. His work has contributed significantly to advancements in laser therapy.
Dr. Michael Trayford brings a wealth of knowledge in functional neurology and has a keen interest in integrating various modalities, including laser therapy, to enhance brain function and address complex neurological conditions effectively.
Summary:
Episode #38 of The Laser Light Show features a compelling conversation with Dr. Kirk Gair and Dr. Michael Trayford, recorded at the Erchonia Business Meeting. Hosts Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells delve into the realms of cutting-edge laser therapy and functional neurology. The discussion covers groundbreaking clinical trials, the multifaceted applications of laser therapy for neurological and other medical conditions, and the philosophical differences between conventional and functional neurology.
Key Takeaways:
- Innovative Laser Therapy: Dr. Gair’s involvement in clinical trials has shown remarkable outcomes using a new laser combining violet and green wavelengths, particularly for chronic neck and shoulder pain.
- Holistic Approach: The conversation highlights the holistic and multimodal approach of functional neurology, contrasting with the more linear and symptom-focused conventional neurology.
- Neurogenesis and Neuroplasticity: The importance of both neurogenesis (forming new nerve cells) and neuroplasticity (forming new neural connections) in treatment approaches, and how laser therapy can support these processes.
- Engagement with Conventional Medicine: Despite the potential challenges, there’s an interest in bridging the gap between functional and conventional neurology to enhance patient care.
Quotes:
- “This is going to stimulate something called brain-derived neurotrophic factor… it’s like Miracle-Gro for your brain.” – Dr. Kirk Gair
- “If you’ve seen one brain injury, you’ve seen one brain injury.” – Dr. Michael Trayford, emphasizing the unique nature of each patient’s condition.
- “We’re not usual and customary so that also gives us some freedom… to not be the typical kind of mainstream approach.” – Dr. Kirk Gair on the independence of chiropractic practice from conventional constraints.
