As a healthcare professional, you know how important it is to stay up-to-date with the latest advancements in medical technology. With so many options available, it can be difficult to know which products and treatments are truly effective. Fortunately, Erchonia, the world leader in low-level laser therapy, has created a downloadable resource specifically for you. “Not All Light is the Same” offers valuable insights and industry light comparisons, helping you make an informed decision about which low-level laser therapy product is right for your practice.
Discover the benefits of Low-Level Laser Therapy (3LT®) by Erchonia, a world leader in the field of 3LT® technology. Learn how 3LT® can help reduce the need for prescription opioids for chronic low back pain, the science behind 3LT® and the difference between visible lasers and infrared lasers.
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Here’s How This eBook Can Help:
Discover the benefits of Low-Level Laser Therapy (3LT®) by Erchonia, a world leader in the field of 3LT® technology. Learn how 3LT® can help reduce the need for prescription opioids for chronic low back pain, the science behind 3LT® and the difference between visible lasers and infrared lasers.
5-Minute Read
Laser technology has come a long way in the field of medicine. Lasers are currently used in a wide range of medical applications, including laser surgery and laser therapy. Laser surgery, also known as laser scalpel, uses a highly focused beam of light to make incisions or vaporize tissue. This technique is commonly used in procedures such as LASIK eye surgery, removal of skin lesions, and laser-assisted angioplasty.
On the other hand, low-level laser therapy (LLLT), also known as cold laser therapy or 3LT®, is a non-invasive treatment that employs low-power laser beams to stimulate healing and reduce pain. It has transformed the way we diagnose and treat patients and has been effective in managing a range of conditions, such as chronic pain, nociceptive pain reduction, and weight loss.
In this article, we will delve into the future possibilities and advancements in the low-level laser industry. Our focus will be on the specific areas where this technology is expected to make a significant impact, providing a comprehensive and informative outlook for both medical professionals and those who are interested in the potential of this technology. We will explore the potential for growth and developments in the field, and examine the latest research and discoveries. Ultimately, our aim is to shed light on the exciting possibilities that low-level laser therapy holds for the future of healthcare.
LLLT works by using photonic stimuli to excite the body’s cells infusing them with energy. Three primary reactions include reduction of inflammation, improved cell function, and increased blood flow.
The procedure is typically performed on an outpatient basis and does not require any anesthesia. It is a relatively painless procedure, with most patients reporting only a mild sensation of warmth during treatment. It is safe and has no known serious side effects.
With the increasing use in medicine, the potential for growth and advancements in the laser therapy industry is significant. Researchers continue to study the potential benefits and new applications are being discovered regularly. Let’s take a closer look at predicting the future of low-level lasers in medicine.
With the development of new technologies and increasing demand for minimally invasive procedures, the use of lasers in medicine is expected to become more prevalent. Here are seven trends that could play out over the next 20 years in the field of low-level lasers.
Advancements in technology and delivery methods could pave the way for even more effective and accessible LLLT treatments in the future. By developing new types of lasers that are even more precise and targeted, or new methods of delivering the light that make it easier to use LLLT for different types of injuries and conditions, LLLT could become an even more versatile treatment option.
Joseph Zapolsky, the International Sales Director for Erchonia, said on The Laser Light Show Podcast, “we’re actually starting to see that awakening in this country, where we are starting to see a lot of doctors working towards functional medicine. Working towards preventative medicines.”
As LLLT becomes more widely used, we may also see new types of devices and equipment being developed to make it easier and more convenient for patients to receive treatment. These advancements could lead to LLLT becoming an even more accessible treatment option for a wide range of conditions.
In conclusion, the field of laser technology in medicine is expected to experience significant growth and advancements in the next 20 years. The increasing demand for minimally invasive procedures and new technologies are driving this growth, and lasers are expected to become more prevalent in the treatment of neuro disorders and non-invasive fat loss. Laser therapy has already revolutionized the way we diagnose and treat patients, and its potential to improve patient outcomes and revolutionize healthcare is immense.
It is crucial for medical professionals to stay informed and up-to-date on the latest developments in laser technology to provide the best care possible to their patients. Attending conferences and workshops can be beneficial in learning about the latest advancements and trends in laser technology. Investing in cutting-edge laser technology, as well as research studies, is essential to bring about more efficient and cost-effective solutions for patients and healthcare providers.
The future of laser technology in medicine holds immense potential, and it is something to watch out for in the coming years.
Contact Erchonia today to learn more about how our 3LT® treatment can transform your practice.
*Disclaimer: Erchonia lasers are FDA-cleared for specific medical indications and the following is not intended to claim that Erchonia lasers can cure, heal, rejuvenate, or regenerate any medical condition or disease that is not covered by our FDA clearances at the time this article is published.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? This is Dr. Chad Woolner, and you’re tuned into today’s episode of The Laser Light Show. Joining us is a very special guest and a great friend of mine, Dr. Josh Wagner. I’m particularly excited about our discussion today because we’re taking a slight detour from our usual deep dive into the science of lasers. Instead, we’re exploring the realm of social science, focusing on communication strategies that will aid practitioners in enhancing their interactions with patients. And for our listeners who are patients, there’s plenty for you too—insights into how these strategies can improve your experiences. So, without further ado, let’s dive in. Welcome to the show, Dr. Josh Wagner. How are you doing, my friend?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Hey, I’m doing great. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, so this is going to be a bit of a departure, as I kind of alluded to in the intro, in that Dr. Josh Wagner is not a low-level laser therapy guru. Dr. Josh Wagner is probably best known in our profession for helping practitioners effectively communicate with patients, and helping practitioners develop what we would call, you know, proper headspace strategies. These strategies help them to better prepare for consultations with patients. Is that a fair way of articulating it?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Yeah, let’s just cut to the chase. I help chiropractors become the go-to provider in their area and get paid well. But I know there’s a mix of practitioners and non-practitioners listening to this. So, when I say ‘get paid well,’ it doesn’t come from a place of trying to extract more money from the public or anything unethical. Instead, it’s about shifting from a transactional conversation or relationship to a transformational relationship. Essentially, a layperson, or rather a patient, instead of feeling, ‘Oh, I have to pay this amount, and I could have spent that money on a vacation, savings, or groceries,’ actually feels inspired and happy to invest in getting their life back. And as practitioners, if you start shifting your mindset— and we’re going to dive into this in our conversation— from transactional to transformational relationships, jot that down. It makes it much easier for patients to happily and enthusiastically pay you, even with, and especially if, they hoped or thought insurance would cover your care. So, we’re going to dive into why that hasn’t been the route for many practitioners and steps you can start taking to change it, but it all starts with your mindset. I love helping good providers grow their practice, doing good work, and helping more patients get well, feel well, and return to their lives.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I would say that’s a great jumping-off point when we talk about ‘headspace’ because I think, regardless of the type of practice—whether the practitioners we’re speaking to here are chiropractors, medical doctors, osteopaths, acupuncturists, naturopaths, you name it—there’s a bit of a challenging balancing act. We can call it that. It arises because, I believe, a significant percentage, if not the majority, enter these professions out of a sincere desire to help and serve people. And sometimes, speaking for myself, I’ve encountered situations where it can be somewhat challenging to reconcile serving people and then, obviously, getting paid for that service. And of course, the necessity of needing to get paid for the services rendered. Because, if that transaction doesn’t happen, you don’t have a job; you can’t continue to serve people. So, maybe you could speak to that balancing act from your perspective. Why do a lot of practitioners, regardless of their profession, sometimes struggle with this and maybe find it difficult to strike the right balance?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Yeah, absolutely, Chad. And when I teach doctors, I call it turning what’s traditionally seen as your biggest weakness into a strength. Most healthcare providers, especially those outside of conventional medicine but even those within it, have a deep commitment to bringing the best modalities to their patients to help them recover from their conditions. This dedication isn’t just about the money. Let’s be clear about that: everyone listening to this is here to learn something and grow. I know you’re coming from a place of ethical and humanistic values, wanting to help more people get well and to be a pillar in your community.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And I’m just going to interrupt for a quick second. This is something we’ve hit on several times on this podcast, and it’s important to highlight again. For those in the field who might gravitate towards an erroneous perspective, there’s a significant consensus we’ve acknowledged: our focus is on the mission of helping as many people as possible. This is evident in how some choose to invest heavily—something we’ve discussed in previous episodes. They could easily cut more corners, save more money, or increase their profits by not investing as much of their time, money, and resources into research. Yet, it’s very clear that for them, like Erchonia, the priority could financially be to focus on being ‘bigger’ or ‘better’ in that sense. But the genuine focus on research, because they understand its importance to the patient, makes it evident where their priorities lie. You’re in the right place, and what you’re saying resonates here—you’re preaching to the choir, so to speak. I just wanted to highlight that because it’s significant.
Dr. Josh Wagner: That’s beautiful, and I wasn’t even specifically aware of that about Erchonia. So, that excites me even more about using their brand, and it resonates with their followers, clients, and patients. Now, getting back to my journey, like most chiropractors, I fell in love with chiropractic from a deeply humanistic standpoint. The philosophy behind chiropractic resonated with me. At the time, as a 20-year-old undergrad, I hadn’t fully considered that I’d also need to be my business owner. Not every doctor in the medical profession has to deal with that, and most aren’t just automatically fed referrals from other providers. Initially, I probably didn’t grasp the insurance game at all. But essentially, I hadn’t thought that having financial conversations with patients would play such a significant and vital role in the success of my practice, both monetarily and in my ability to help more people. As Chad accurately pointed out, a leader in chiropractic would always say you need to balance the business hand with the patient’s hand. If you run your own business, you must keep the lights on first to help more people. If the focus is solely on helping more people without the ability to keep the lights on, you go out of business, and then you can’t help anyone.
So, most doctors, and if you’re listening to this and you’re not a chiropractor but own your practice, you understand this too. You probably didn’t think when you entered your field that you’d need to have these financial conversations. Then, when you realize you do, there are many approaches. Some give it the old college try and wing it, often leading to anxiety about the conversation, worry, doubt, and anxiety about setting your fees. You might look at what colleagues or neighboring practices charge and think that’s what you should do. But that’s as absurd as comparing spouses based on appearances, right? It’s not apples to apples. Or perhaps, depending on your profession and the professional development seminars you attend, you might not feel great about the pricing strategies you’re taught. This leads to waking up anxious about those conversations or going to bed at night feeling unsettled, thinking, ‘This isn’t how I wanted to spend my career.’ Instead of just helping people get well and being fairly compensated by patients who are happy to pay, that’s what I love helping doctors and professionals in my field do: move from doubt, fear, insecurity, and anxiety around setting and communicating fees to feeling great about it. Achieving this transforms your practice into one that’s raved about online and becomes the go-to provider in your community.
It all starts with headspace, which we’re about to dive into. I’ve already hinted at one of the biggest mindset shifts needed: from seeing interactions as transactions to viewing them as opportunities for transformation. Remember this: transformation over transaction. Transactionally, a patient is paying for your time, modality, like laser treatments, or a certain number of sessions. That’s very different from when you deliver an incredible new patient experience, genuinely care about what the patient is dealing with, ask the right questions, and discover what’s missing in their life due to their condition. If you’re confident in your treatment and care, conveying that confidence, certainty, and leadership can transform the patient’s life. It’s not about guaranteeing results—patients understand that not everything is guaranteed. But by presenting your expectations with honesty, leadership, clarity, and simplicity, you show them the potential to get back to their desired life. And it’s not seen as much as a transaction but as an opportunity for their life to change.
This line is crucial: allow patients to pay for the optimistic expectation of the results they’re going to achieve. It’s about offering them an exciting chance to return to the life they want to live, whether that’s enjoying pain-free activities, participating in significant family moments, or simply improving their daily well-being. Every patient is different, and understanding their unique desires and goals is key. They’re not just looking for a quick fix or a discount—they care about their health and well-being. Starting from this understanding, and employing strategies like the six-question consult and five-step recommendations, can transform your practice. But remember, it all begins with the mindset that you’re offering a transformation, not just a transaction. Providing patients with an opportunity for savings while maintaining quality care is a bonus that everyone appreciates. The old college try or feeling uncomfortable with your approach won’t lead to success. It might backfire or leave you feeling unsatisfied. So, Chad, based on all of this, what are your thoughts? Yes, transforming the patient-provider relationship in this way is what I love to do.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, there are two big ideas, a wonderful, beautiful setup, that I want to highlight from what you’ve shared. First, one of the reasons why we, including Dr. Wills and several of my colleagues, have been friends with Josh is because we share a very similar philosophy with Dr. Wagner. Our general litmus test, which we discuss frequently, is about transparency. If patients were to ‘pull back the curtain’ and hear what Dr. Josh Wagner is teaching his practitioners in consultations, behind closed doors at his seminars, or in his online programs, would they feel comfortable with those teachings? This is something I’m also very sensitive about, as I teach and train practitioners across the country. With hundreds of hours of archival training footage, I am confident that both Josh and I can assure that patients reviewing all that material would find nothing manipulative or unethical. We’re not teaching strategies that are out of alignment with ethical practices. That’s the first point I wanted to make right off the bat.
The second point is about confidence. One of the key ideas is that when doctors have confidence in the likelihood of a transformation occurring, it alleviates potential concerns, apprehension, anxiety, and worry that may weigh heavily on a practitioner’s shoulders. Incorporating Erchonia lasers into our practice has significantly boosted this confidence. In the realm of Physical Medicine and healing, it’s challenging to find gold-standard evidence supporting many treatments or modalities. However, Erchonia lasers stand out because they are backed by substantial evidence, including level one, double-blind, placebo-controlled studies and over 20 FDA clearances. This evidence provides clear expectations for patient outcomes based on the research conducted since 1994. Knowing that a patient with a specific condition should respond favorably within a certain timeframe, based on this evidence, has significantly enhanced my confidence. This doesn’t just relieve the weight on my shoulders but allows the lasers to perform as designed and researched. This confidence has greatly improved the conversations we have with patients, underscoring the importance of confidence and leadership in our practice. Using the right tools can indeed lift some of that weight off your shoulders. Does that make sense?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Absolutely, 100%. So, where do you want to go from here? Which topic or angle should we explore next? Yeah, what would be valuable?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I’m interested in the types of questions you’re teaching doctors to ask patients. Specifically, how do these questions facilitate the shift from transactional to transformational interactions? How can we ensure that these conversations feel natural and comfortable for both the practitioner and the patient?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Yeah, Most doctors likely address Activities of Daily Living (ADLs) in some form during their graduate education. I remember initially dismissing their importance in grad school, thinking, ‘Oh, that doesn’t matter.’ However, I’ve come to believe in amplifying their significance. Perhaps these are marked as checkboxes on a consultation form, or lightly touched upon after discussing symptoms and the patient’s subjective experience. The crucial part of the consult involves directly asking the patient where their condition is most interfering with, impacting, or affecting their daily life. The keyword here is ‘most,’ as it focuses the patient’s attention on what significantly disrupts their life, moving beyond generic complaints to what they truly care about, whether it’s not being able to sleep through the night, leaving work early, losing social connections, or experiencing intimacy issues.
It’s a practitioner’s choice to use this information ethically, to genuinely improve the patient’s quality of life, rather than manipulatively. This approach shifts the perspective from transactional—focusing on the package, protocol, or number of sessions—to transformational, emphasizing the impact of treatment on the patient’s life.
Many practitioners fall into discussing their services, such as laser therapy, in transactional terms, comparing their prices to those of others and locking themselves into a standard rate, for example, $100 per session, leading to a $1,200 protocol for 12 sessions. This standard pricing model fails to consider the unique value that resolving a condition like PTSD, Parkinson’s, or chronic migraines could bring to a patient. Rather than confining themselves to what ‘everyone else does’ and potentially undervaluing their services, practitioners should assess the extraordinary change their treatment could make, possibly meriting a much higher valuation, like $2,850, instead of sticking to the conventional $1,200.
This isn’t about extracting more money from patients but about recognizing the true value of the service provided. It’s about rethinking the value exchange from the perspective of the significant, lasting impact on the patient’s life, which could be far greater than the conventional pricing suggests. When this value is communicated effectively, patients are more likely to appreciate the service and willingly invest in their health, understanding that they’re paying for a transformation that goes beyond the session count or the technology used.
By starting from a place of genuine care and aiming to make a real difference in patients’ lives, everything changes in how fees are structured and communicated. This perspective helps patients see beyond the immediate cost, viewing their payment as an investment in a better quality of life, free from the limitations imposed by their condition.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I completely agree. And this point is so crucial that it bears repeating, even though you’ve touched on it earlier. Just yesterday, during a training session with practitioners for a program that includes laser therapy, we emphasized the importance of personal buy-in and team buy-in. This foundation is key to fostering organic growth and success with the program. When you and your team fully believe in the tools and solutions you offer, you’re better positioned to engage in the meaningful internal conversations necessary to view and present this modality in its intended light. This approach enables honest and realistic discussions about the benefits and value of the treatment.
The concept of value, especially when it comes to financial transactions, is highly subjective and varies greatly from one individual to another. Consider the varied perceptions of value as we approach Christmas, for instance. If I were to receive a custom Gibson Les Paul guitar for $500, I’d see it as an incredible deal because I value and enjoy playing the guitar. In contrast, someone with no interest in guitars might view spending $500 on such a gift as wasteful. This stark difference in perception highlights how value is deeply personal.
This is precisely what practitioners need to focus on: identifying what is valuable to each patient. It’s not just about the laser itself but about understanding and communicating how the laser treatment can help patients return to or enhance the activities and aspects of life they cherish. By framing the conversation around the personal value of the outcomes rather than the cost or specifics of the treatment, you change the entire dynamic, making it more about the transformative impact on the patient’s life.
Dr. Josh Wagner: In the deeper exploration of how healthcare providers, particularly those utilizing laser therapy, approach the valuation of their services, it’s clear that a significant shift in perspective is needed. Providers might become deeply invested in their modalities, like chiropractors with specific techniques or those who have discovered the profound benefits of laser therapy. However, expecting the community to share this passion is where the gap lies. The analogy with the guitar illustrates that the perceived value of a service or item can vary greatly depending on personal interest and understanding.
Patients are generally not concerned with the specifics of the laser technology; their focus is on how it can help them resume their normal lives. Therefore, when discussing pricing—whether it’s set at a relatively accessible rate of $1,200, speculated at an exorbitant $50,000, or somewhere in between—the essential message is that patients are investing in the hope and potential outcomes the technology can provide. Such examples underscore the nuanced discussion around pricing strategies and perceived value.
A crucial point raised is that setting the price too low, at $1,200 for example, might inadvertently suggest a lesser value or effectiveness of the treatment, especially for life-altering conditions like Parkinson’s, PTSD, or chronic migraines. Conversely, proposing an unrealistically high figure like $50,000 might set unrealistic expectations about the treatment’s efficacy. This dialogue doesn’t advocate for exorbitant pricing but emphasizes the importance of not undervaluing services based on conventional models or comparisons.
The broader discussion encourages providers to reflect on the significant, transformative value their treatment offers. It’s not merely about the laser but the life-changing impact it has on patients. Thus, pricing should not just reflect the cost of technology but, more importantly, the value of the outcomes it enables for patients. This approach shifts the focus from a transactional exchange to a transformational experience, where the real investment is in the patient’s well-being and future.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, absolutely. Well said. And I’d just like to echo Dr. Wagner’s point: don’t get too fixated on the specific numerical examples he provided. They’re meant as illustrative examples, a starting point for deeper exploration and discussion. This is something you can delve into further on your own, and I encourage you to also engage in conversations with others who use Erchonia lasers, whether that be your Erchonia representative or experts within the Erchonia community. These discussions can offer valuable insights.
For those interested in learning more about Dr. Wagner’s work or in connecting with him beyond this podcast, where can they find you, Dr. Wagner?
Dr. Josh Wagner: Thank you, Chad. If you’re a healthcare provider, especially a chiropractor, there’s a wealth of free training available at patientmastery.com. This is my platform where I share the ‘Three First Strike Strategies’ every doctor can use to significantly boost collections. And for those passionate about mindset, personal growth, and those ‘aha’ moments, I’ve written a book titled ‘You Deserve It All,’ which focuses on the ‘deserving belief’ as a cornerstone for achieving your desires in life, transitioning from feeling undeserving to fully deserving. You’ll find a complimentary PDF download of the book on the website as well. It’s a resource designed to illuminate and guide you on your journey toward success and fulfillment.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Fantastic. Dr. Wagner, thank you immensely for carving out time from your busy schedule to join us in this episode. This conversation has been fantastic, offering a fresh perspective distinct from our previous discussions. It’s incredibly valuable for doctors and equally enlightening for non-physicians who can appreciate the transparency and insights shared here. So, again, our heartfelt thanks for your presence and contributions.
To all the doctors listening, we hope this episode has provided you with a unique perspective and thought-provoking ideas to ponder. We’re excited for you to begin integrating some of these strategies into your practices, aiming to assist more patients and pivot from transactional interactions to transformational relationships that genuinely make a difference.
Thank you, everyone, for tuning in. We look forward to engaging with you in the next episode. Take care, and thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Don’t forget to subscribe and leave us a review. For those interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, visit erchonia.com, where you’ll find extensive resources, including research, news, and links to live events, as well as access to our Erchonia e-community for free advanced training and business tools. Thanks again for listening, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.
Dr. Josh Wagner is known for assisting healthcare practitioners, especially chiropractors, in enhancing their patient communication and developing effective headspace strategies. He is not primarily focused on low-level laser therapy but on helping providers become the go-to doctors in their community, facilitating a shift from transactional to transformational patient relationships. Dr. Wagner emphasizes the importance of mindset in achieving this transformation and has contributed significantly to the field through patientmastery.com and his book “You Deserve It All.
Episode #37 of The Laser Light Show, featuring Dr. Josh Wagner, diverges from the usual focus on the technical aspects of laser therapy to explore communication strategies and mindset shifts necessary for healthcare providers. Dr. Wagner shares insights on building transformational relationships with patients, moving beyond the conventional transactional approach to care. The episode discusses the balancing act between serving patients and the necessity of getting paid, underlining the significance of valuing services beyond their direct monetary cost.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Hey everybody, what’s going on? Dr. Chad Woolner here with my good friend, Dr. Andrew Wells, and on today’s episode of The Laser Light Show, we have with us our special guest, Nikki Reed. We’re super excited to chat with her about her experience with Erchonia lasers and everything she’s got going on in her life right now. So let’s get to it! Welcome to the show, everybody, and a huge welcome to Nikki. Thank you so much for taking time out of your schedule to be here with us. We really appreciate it.
Nikki Reed: Absolutely, I’m genuinely so happy to be here because I’m actually a huge fan. So the roles are reversed right now. I’m here to ask you guys a bunch of questions and talk about my journey with this so far.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. Yeah, so I guess maybe a good jumping-off point with that is, how did you get in touch with Erchonia lasers? How did that whole process start?
Nikki Reed: Oh, okay, this started very organically, actually. I had been kind of… we can talk about this more in-depth in a minute. But I’ve been sort of navigating this very interesting, mysterious, strange health journey, which I feel is probably not too uncommon for you to hear. I’m sure a lot of people find lasers in that way, you know because conventional medicine only teaches us to look inside, you know, one set of parameters. And then when you’re on a journey where there are a lot of unanswered questions, you start seeking alternative therapies and having interesting conversations with people that maybe have a more colorful background, if you will. And so that led me here. I have a doctor that I work with who I call like, my… like, he’s such a wizard, he’s like a jack of all trades. And he discovered the lasers first, and that would be Dr. Ryan, and he was using them on me. And he said, “You know, I think a more consistent form of this therapy would be really good for you. And, you know, if it’s something you’re interested in, maybe, you know, investing in a laser, and really investing in the time to do that would be beneficial.” So that’s what led me here. That’s my sort of condensed answer. And then we can break it apart and talk more about it. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. So Nikki, you know, I know that you’re an actress, you’ve been doing that. But tell us a little bit about some of the other things that you’re passionate about. Because I also know you’re involved in photography and art. So maybe give us a little bit of a whirlwind tour of who you are.
Nikki Reed: So in a previous life, I was an actress. And I spent, you know, a decade and a half, kind of falling into a career because I co-wrote the first film when I was just a kid. It was called “13”. And so it kind of catapulted me onto a path that, you know, I don’t really think any child can adequately prepare for. I don’t think there’s like a toolbox that comes with a manual, like, “Here’s what you do when you’re a child and you’re sort of thrust into this world.” And so part of my evolution, I think, of my relationship with art and understanding art was finding my way to a form of expression that really resonated with me. And acting is like a tiny sliver of a whole world of art that I discovered actually in my late 20s or early 30s. I had like a whole career shift and I kind of left the only career I’d ever known as an actress. And I kind of really booked my career with, you know, very much like in this, guys, like, pop culture phenomenons, if you will. And I decided that it was time for me to, you know, maybe try to connect with art and connect with culture and impact culture in a different way. And so I launched my business, which, at the time we launched with multipurpose apothecary because I was pregnant with my daughter, and I was trying to find a way to, you know, I was Googling things that at the time weren’t such like hot, hot, you know, Google searches like organic, you know, chemical free, you know, how are your clothes grown? Like, how is the cotton grown that we’re wearing on our bodies while we’re pregnant? And what’s in the lotions that we’re wearing? And should we be wearing deodorant really, or is that like a modern, like a modern man invention that we don’t actually need? And just like the things you only really started to Google when you’re pregnant, because no one tells you to do it before that. And along the way, I discovered that I felt there was a better way to produce products. So that was the launch of my business initially. And we very quickly pivoted into sustainability, which was, I guess, sort of one of the key pillars of the business being, you know, multipurpose products. And apothecary, that is kind of the definition of sustainability. And a lot of ways less is more. And so we ended up finding ourselves in this beautiful partnership with Dell technology, using recycled gold that had been extracted from the motherboards of their recycled computers to create fine jewelry. And we moved into that space and things just sort of immediately clicked, we launched fine jewelry at CES, which is like the largest tech convention in the world. Interestingly enough, and I’m sure you guys know, CES quite well. And then, you know, the core of the business became sustainable engagement rings, and There went the next five and a half years of my life, developing this beautiful business in this space that was like all surrounding love, which was so wonderful. Through the business, I had to learn how to wear many hats and one of those hats was photography, because when you are an entrepreneur, and there’s no money but your own money to fund everything that you’re doing, you learn how to do everything you build product pages, you learn how to you know create labels and ship and you know, Excel programs and the backend of websites and coding and you’re also shooting all the photography for the business and so I invested in myself with my very first camera and that was five years ago. And that was like a camera. And I still shoot almost all the product photography for the website and all socials and everything we do campaigns. And through that, I developed this super crazy beautiful relationship with photography and with like, actually the brand itself. And so now I’m, I shoot for like, and I have my first exhibition up in Los Angeles, actually, which is such an honor, so exciting. We just had a beautiful Elysium art salon dinner on Saturday celebrating the exhibition. Just really such an honor. Anyway, I’m sorry, that was long-winded. But there are a lot of chapters in between that too.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, that was great. Yeah, congratulations on that. That’s huge. That’s wonderful. I’ve heard of the Leica camera. You’ll have to tell us what’s different about it compared to normal cameras, right? I remember looking at those a while ago. There’s some sort of unique perspective on those.
Nikki Reed: I sort of like to describe Leica as being the most iconic camera brand in the world. Because when you think about war journalists, you picture someone on the front lines carrying that beautiful silver and black camera with the red logo on the front, and you’re like, ‘Oh, that’s a Leica.’ They are the epitome, the definitive camera in my head. I mean, all cameras are beautiful, and obviously, I’m biased, but Leica is the camera.
Dr. Andrew Wells: They make really good lenses. I first learned about Leica through their use in neurosurgery for microscopes, and their surgical-level precision was really impressive. These microscopes cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, and you wonder, ‘What’s the big deal about this microscope?’ Then you realize they have a lens, and they’re like, ‘Oh, that’s why.’ When you’re in neurosurgery, cutting through people’s brains, you want to make sure you have a really clear picture of that. That was actually when I first heard about Leica. I didn’t realize they also made incredible cameras. They were always out of my price range and also way above my head in terms of photography expertise. I’m like the worst photographer ever. So, that sounded like, ‘Yeah, I don’t think I need a Leica camera.’ I started off with a Kodak camera as a kid. But yeah, they make really good lenses.
Nikki Reed: We can talk more about that because I know the Leica camera can seem intimidating. But there are actually some really wonderful user-friendly options, like a great point-and-shoot. I love that you have that appreciation for it as well. When you Google it, you’re like, ‘Wow, there are so many applications, from microscopes to medicine.’ It’s true, they’re involved in so many areas. Actually, the depth of Leica’s offerings is still largely undiscovered, and we need to reveal that to everybody.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s hilarious. So when you come in touch with the laser, if you don’t mind, maybe give us a little bit more of a picture of what you were using the laser for and how Dr. Manning introduced that to you? How did that conversation kind of get started?
Nikki Reed: So again, I chalk it up to this word like mystery illness, because in the world of medicine, you guys know this very clearly, everybody seems to function, sorry, in the world of conventional medicine, everyone seems to function in their own lanes, right? So if you talk to, you know, I don’t know. And T, they’re not necessarily understanding what a rheumatologist would understand, and if you’re talking to… And what I love about the whole other side of medicine, is that I don’t like it being like one or the other. But it’s like there is Western medicine. And then I feel like there’s a whole world that just goes beyond that. And beyond that, to me is just looking at the whole body as being a connected body. That’s it, it’s not like one is better than the other. I just feel like in Western medicine, and by the way, my grandfather’s, like one of the most celebrated doctors in the world, and I have such an appreciation for Western medicine. But really what he, I think, focused on the most, and he wrote papers about this, and like I just, he passed away, gosh, I think it’s like nine or 10 years ago now. And I so wish that he was alive during also just this time that we’ve just lived through where I felt like it really takes some critical thinking and outside-of-the-box thinking because that’s what he was, is an outside-of-the-box thinker. And I think the best of the best doctors, no matter how you’re trained, are just simply outside-of-the-box thinkers, and they listen to their patients. And that was something that I read in a medical journal that he wrote recently about the importance of listening to your patients, above all else sitting at the bedside of a patient and actually saying, let’s talk through what you’re feeling. Oh, you don’t feel like it’s this? Well, then I want to listen to what you think it could be because, at the end of the day, we’re all such intuitive beings. But we’ve been totally trained to disconnect from our bodies and experience health and wellness medicine in this sort of whole interconnected way.
So anyway, I was experiencing very strange symptoms that wouldn’t go away, from ongoing sinus infections to a sudden spike in my ANA levels that no one could figure out. And I’m an incredibly healthy person, right? And so there were just these things that kept popping up that were actually Dr. Ryan was the first person to say I was like, you know, I don’t know that it’s a big deal that I have a spike in my ANA’s. And after I was like, you know what, it actually is like, I actually want to look into that because the body doesn’t do that unless there’s something it’s trying to tell you. And that’s another thing I’ve learned on this journey, the last couple of, you know, gosh, it’s been three years now of this health journey is that the body knocks on your door until you start to listen, right? So for some people, it comes in the form of pain, they just have unexplainable pain. I didn’t have that. But I’m just saying these are stories that I hear. And that pain might not even be necessarily connected to the root cause of the problem. But it knocks, and the body’s like, here, you’re gonna listen, and we ignore it. And we ignore them because we have busy lives, and we’re working these crazy jobs, and we’re all buried in our technology, and we have 9000 texts we haven’t responded to. And so when we’re in bed at night, why, you know, we’re not gonna sit there and do like castor oil packs and magnesium baths because we’ve probably got 10,000 texts to reply to. And when we wake up in the morning, we’re not going to meditate for the first 10 minutes of the day and get a nice red light in our eyes. We’re going to actually just respond to the 2000 emails that we’re probably behind on. And then this is the hamster wheel of life that we’ve gotten ourselves into. And amazingly, I’m not saying this is the cure to anything, and I’m not a doctor, and I can’t, you know, diagnose or treat or anything. But I will tell you that nature has this really interesting way of resetting us, and at the very least getting us to understand what’s actually going on in our bodies, even intuitively, because it sets you back into the rhythm of nature, which is a slower pace. You know, when we’re moving so quickly, we’re not paying attention. So my body was knocking, right? It was like, Hey, you should maybe look at this, and I wasn’t looking, and, hey, there’s maybe a little bit of this. And I’m like, that’s probably normal. And I’m just so healthy, right? There’s just no way, there’s something wrong. That’s it. I just kept telling myself, like so many people. And then I noticed, and I do keep a lot of obviously, just for the sake of like, my daughter being her own person. And you know, even though I’m her parents, and of course, parents like to speak for their kids, I think of her as like her own being, and maybe in 10 years, she doesn’t want her story, you know, her fake private life together. So I don’t talk about her too much. But I’ll just say that there, there were similarities that were happening between my daughter and me, and it’s funny, as a parent, you might not pay attention to yourself, but when something is going on with your child, you’re like, oh, now I’m going to pay attention.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah.
Nikki Reed: Again, going back to pregnancy and everything in the very beginning of this, and you know, why I launched my business. So we pay attention when we’re parents. And so I started going down the deep rabbit hole with her and understanding the brain-body connection. Why is the brain having these symptoms if the body’s not having symptoms, and vice versa? The body does a really good job of hiding things for all of us. It can store things, whether those things are infections, pathogens, bacteria, viruses, or things that can lie dormant. And you think about things like Lyme disease, and how long they can lie dormant in your body, you know, why do some things affect some people and not others? That’s the fascinating world of medicine, and what is it about our body composition that makes us also unique and have different reactions to things? So for my daughter, I was noticing a lot of stuff that was likely neuro-inflammatory and likely a connection happening there. And kids have so few layers than we do as adults. As adults, we’ve buried like 10, or 15, or 20 years of all the bad stuff we’ve put in our bodies, and then it pops up sometime in your 30s or 40s. Remember, you were doing it when you were 15. And only drink diet sodas and nuggets, and like all the things here, smoke two packs of cigarettes a day. Hi, we’re here, you know, whatever it was. But kids just have way fewer layers. And it’s so amazing to see how they respond to treatment and how they are okay. Sorry, your original question was about the lasers.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Just so you know, you’re totally preaching to the choir and our audience. These are the conversations that we have in our training program for practitioners. And we don’t talk a whole lot about magic supplements or all these different complex tests or anything like that. There’s a time and a place for those things. But so much of what you literally just said is the type of conversation that we have with practitioners. And so just know, like what you’re saying, you’re right on par with what we preach. What are you gonna say, Andrew?
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, as you’re talking last five minutes, Nikki, I was thinking my gosh, like, you’d be an amazing doctor. If you go back to like what the word Doctor means in Latin, it means a teacher. Part of being a teacher is curiosity and understanding where things come from, how the body works, and how the body operates in the environment that we’re around. And as you’re explaining what you’ve been through and what you’ve discovered over the years. It got me thinking. Dr. Woolner mentioned we work with other healthcare practitioners on the clinical side, but also on the business management side. One of the trickiest things for us to do as practitioners is how to communicate these things to patients. And I want to take the last five minutes of what you just talked about and make that into a script. This is what he should say to your patients because this is it. Number one, it’s true. And number two, it’s a great starting point for all the things you mentioned, from the environment to the brain-body connection to the fact that we’re not this little into some of these individual parts, which is why conventional health care looks at it. All the things that you just said are the greatest, it’s a really good way to have conversations and start conversations with patients and also get them to realize that it’s not the doctor who is in control of your health, it’s you in control of your health. And then from a patient to think about that, and for just people individually to think about that, that puts a lot of the control in the power in your hands. And you can really, you know, dictate, you know, how you’re going to operate your body and in turn, your body will thank you for that. I like the analogy of your body knocking. It’s a great sort of non-threatening way and an unlabeled way to say, Hey, this is like, you’re not a symptom. It’s just your body telling you like, we need to pay attention to pay attention to something specifically and so you did a really good job explaining that. And yeah, I’m just curious about Dr. Manning, like some of this, I’m sure, is like things that you’ve kind of discovered as any of this, like, the way that you think about health and bought your body and your daughter’s body? Is any of that sort of a reflection of the work that you’ve done with Dr. Manning?
Nikki Reed: I think the best way to answer that is to say that I gravitate towards like-minded people. And I feel he does too. I think that I met him. I think if I can attribute that to anyone, it would probably be my grandfather, just because I feel like in some crazy spiritual way, he’s like living through me. And I know that may sound like maybe I just took a sharp left turn and you’re like, okay.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Not at all. No, you’re good.
Nikki Reed: I just feel like I’m at the point now with my understanding of health and wellness where, if I sit down with someone and they don’t come with that curiosity that you just mentioned, I don’t know what kind of conversation there is to be had anymore. One of my favorite things, even my daughter’s pediatrician says this all the time: ‘I learn as much from medical books as I do from the mothers.’ And I love that. Because, yes, science is amazing. Yes, medicine is amazing. Oh my gosh, it’s unbelievable. But what’s also unbelievable is coupling that with the hundreds of thousands of years and beyond wisdom that comes from just life and experience. Maybe we didn’t have the tools that were sharp enough to see those things or the lenses or the magnifying glasses or whatever. But we have that intuition. And sometimes what medicine does is it separates us from that. But with the right practitioners that actually combine those things, you know, and what you just said is so special, like, you opened that sentence with, you know, the word teacher, and then you very quickly pivoted into the best teachers are curious. And I actually said that the other day, I said the best educators come with curiosity. I was giving a speech for something, and I love that you just said that too. Because most people think that being a teacher means talking to people and not listening to people.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, it’s really interesting. I’ve heard from numerous people, numerous doctors, that one of the cardinal or key rules of determining whether or not you’re dealing with a good doctor or a doctor that you should probably avoid is how they treat the mothers, right? Let’s say a pediatrician. If you quickly dismiss the mother’s reports and the history and what they share with you, you’re dismissing a tremendous amount of valuable clinical information. And again, without being too ethereal here, I think we would be amiss to discount what people would call a mother’s intuition, right? There’s something very real and palpable to that, and I think that the best doctors hone into that, lean into that, and definitely incorporate that, don’t dismiss that. Unfortunately, some doctors are very dismissive of that, ‘What would you know, you’re not a doctor,’ whereas what you’re saying is no, it’s the exact opposite. You should be honing in on that and really tuning into that.
Nikki Reed: What I love about Dr. Ryan, aka Dr. Manning, is that he looks at the body as an entire, connected being. Even though he’s technically trained and specialized in one field, he has such a wealth of knowledge about everything in between. I just wish that doctors were trained, and if they aren’t trained, that they retain an element of yearning for that knowledge still to understand all the things in between. You know, I got sent down every rabbit hole from, again, of course, EMTs to rheumatologists to looking at my blood to like, ‘Okay, where do we begin?’ Because we can’t figure it out? It’s interesting, like one set of panels, I’ve got a doctor going, ‘You’re 100% perfect.’ And then another set of panels, I’ve got a doctor going, ‘Did they not look at X, Y, and Z and all these things in between?’ Classic numbers could be like, ‘If you fall between 10 and 14, you’re considered normal.’ But no one’s looking at the fact that like, you’re 30. At the time, I was a 32-year-old woman. So if you’re a 10.4 on the chart, you shouldn’t be a 10.4 on a chart of 10 to 14 at your age for your, and so you start piecing it together, like this very interesting puzzle of like, so maybe your liver is working too hard? Why would your liver be working so hard, if you don’t drink, you don’t do drugs, you don’t, you know, here’s how you eat, you’re not putting extra stress on this. So something is happening that’s stressing this out. Let’s bounce over here and look at this now. And not many doctors have the ability to look beyond their one field. And so it creates this crazy limitation where they’re like, ‘Oh, we have to send you off to the next person.’ But if there isn’t this giant cohesive network of people, if you’re just being referred out to other people who are not connected, that’s where the disconnect lies. My dream would be to see one global center of doctors that are constantly in communication with each other and on the same page, and practicing in a similar way, so that if they have a patient that’s having a problem with this, they can bounce it off of someone that they already feel they have that dialogue with, and you know, it’s just bounced all over the place. And I’m gonna go as far as to say something really crazy controversial, as someone who’s been in a very frustrating, you know, almost, financially crippling is definitely a great way to describe what happens, you know, in the world of alternative medicine, unfortunately, it can be because there isn’t a support system for that, right. And so when you go down the years of this rabbit hole of trying to figure things out and seeking out your own way, you have to get to a place where you decide that illness is your illness and can actually be looked at as a gift. And I know that that sounds so weird and controversial, but I’m gonna say that in a way that I really feel like the body tells you things before there’s a real problem. And that’s what I mean by the gift if we’re willing to listen, I had a girlfriend call me the other day. She found out that she had thyroid cancer. And she’s had a pain in her neck. And that pain, of course, and you know what I’m about to say the pain is actually completely unrelated to thyroid cancer. Right, according to her team and her doctors, I’m not a doctor, but there isn’t actually pain associated with thyroid cancer. So I’m told, and she’s had this pain for four years, and the thyroid cancer is so small, actually, that it was completely undetectable, except by this very specific kind of ultrasound, but it’s because of that pain, that knocking if you will, on the door, that she continued to say I’m going to seek alternative, you know, therapies or forms of what is going on. And I had a very similar thing happen to me. So it gave me chills all over my body. The only reason I started looking into my health, to begin with, was because I had this weird pain and actually came full circle, it was Dr. Manning that I was seeing for this pain. Funny enough. So here we go. I had this weird pain that was underneath my right ear on the right side of my body up into this joint right here where if I turned my head, I would get this like shooting nerve pain into my inner ear canal. And it would start throbbing down into my throat and down to the side of my body. And I was like, I just want to make sure that there’s not like a tumor or something weird growing in there. And I saw every doctor under the sun, everybody they sent me to, like, “Do you have, you know, lass downloads? Do you have…” which I obviously don’t have. And they just send you everywhere and feel like they’ve crossed every T and dotted every I. And no one would acknowledge that that pain was real. And you know, Dr. Ryan was with me all the time, pulling and stretching and moving and cracking, and like, “Maybe we have to move this joint off of that joint, but what is the root cause of this pain?” Finally, I discovered that the root cause of that particular pain was because of the amount of grinding of my teeth that I was doing, right? And so of course, when you find out you’re grinding your teeth, they want to send you to, you know, dental or so everything under the sun to figure out how to reshape your jaw and expand your John, change your teeth, and put in prosthetics, and pull this, do the must-have four root canals that need to happen. And so I got thrown into there, and I was like, “Oh, goodness, I’m definitely not going to, you know, have multiple root canals before I get 10 opinions on that first.” And so then I’m like, why am I grinding my teeth? It’s not just stress. I mean, yes, life is stressful, and I have multiple jobs and a tiny person, and you know, but what is really the root cause behind grinding my teeth? And I had been exposed environmentally to something that was completely hidden in my body, like, completely undetectable. And grinding your teeth is a symptom. It’s not the root cause of the problem. It’s a symptom of what the problem is. So you start chipping away and starting to understand and understand. And then that was the beginning of me starting to really understand what was going on. And you know, of course, you don’t have like a spike in your ANA’s for nothing. And I guess it’s not just a spike; it’s been a sustained spike now for years. There’s nothing going on. And so you look further and further, and funnily enough, someone who had had my blood work done for so many years by so many different doctors, no one ever checks for positive AMA’s in young people; they just, it’s not part of routine panels ever. So I don’t know how long that was going on. But anyway, that’s the knock, right? And my girlfriend had that happen with a pain in her neck. It’s completely unrelated to the cancer she ended up discovering. So if we can just slow down for a second, step back, and tune into our bodies, usually, our body will say, “Hey, something’s going on, you know, just find out what it is.” Yes, sorry. I talked again for 10 minutes; no need to put a little buzzer like a bandsaw
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, that was great. I was going to say I can appreciate, from a very personal standpoint, that my wife had thyroid cancer. My wife has dealt with a lot of chronic health issues over the years. In fact, when we were first married, well, the first few years of marriage, she, I should say, went through infertility, and ultimately, that led to us adopting all of our children. So we now have three children. So when you talk about this idea of like these things being ultimately a blessing, you can look at it from either that kind of very negative lens, or you can look at it through kind of what comes about as a result of it. The other thing too, with my wife’s health issues, is ultimately that to a large extent has led, in many ways, to what we have developed to be able to help practitioners and patients alike in terms of working with him, and so completely appreciate that perspective, for sure. Because I’ve experienced that. So I’m curious how the lasers fit into this whole scenario here, you know, what did Dr. Manning starts doing with you in terms of how you started using lasers, what’s been some of the results that you’ve seen as a result of using that?
Nikki Reed: So I’m a new laser user. Okay, so I’m new as in, you know, just in the last couple of months, really. And so I always like to give a six-month rule for anything in the health space. I think it takes us a long time to get to where we are, and there are no miracle cures, or like you snap your fingers and things just fall back into place. It’s a journey that starts with acknowledgment and then moves into treatment. And then the body has to also, I think, release back into saying I’m ready to get well, especially when you’ve dealt with chronic illness and you know, there have been so many notes along the way and roadblocks I think the body has to be able to say, ‘Okay, I’m ready now to relax enough to get well.’ So there are things I immediately see with the laser. And then there are things that I think take time to just discover immediate things that I definitely see with like the superficial wound healing, rashes, things like that. I see an immediate response from Lasering. I mean, Dr. Ryan has even more hardcore lasers that I want to get my hands on at some point. I have, you know, I have a great laser but he has like the mothership lasers. So I still use CPM for my lasers at the same time, but I use this laser that I have, I don’t know if this is the laser you guys have used. And so I can use this, I have a stand now, which has been so helpful because sometimes I just feel like, someone will have to correct me if I’m wrong on this. But just having like consistency and having the stand-up has made it so nice and user-friendly to just be able to sit and like read a book for a second and not feel like you have to devote time to just holding your laser but just like tune out for a minute, you know, and then laser becomes a part of your therapy, as opposed to, ‘I have to sit here and devote, you know, 10 minutes of time to this.’ So all the superficial things I see immediately. And I do also feel like I see some great impact on my immune system. But again, I see that as like a, what’s the word I’m looking for? Like, it’s a whole, combo process. Because it’s you have to take control of the decisions that you make on a daily basis, whether it’s through how you’re eating, how you’re exercising the thoughts you’re putting into your brain, like what you’re digesting, emotionally, physically every day coupled with, you know, your lasers and your diet and your time away from blue light. And like you have to do everything at once, right? It’s like the analogy of telling, you know, a smoker to take their vitamins, right, you have to you can, you know, and lasers to me are all about energy and light. And so you want to keep yourself in a space of light. I wish I could tell you about like, I lasered my body once and then I snapped my fingers, and all of my blood work came back perfectly. I can’t tell you that. But I can tell you that in the last six months, my labs have improved. My immune system, I see a big difference. And anytime my daughter gets sick, this is a part of our routine as well. And I feel very energetically encouraged by this.
Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s interesting that you pointed out that you give things like the six-month rule, I think, is what you said, or six months to kind of implement something into your protocols and your systems to see if it works and what effect it has on your body. And it’s interesting you say that because we say that a lot to other health care providers as well, you know when they ask when they’re asking you about specific protocols or like functional medicine protocols? And they’ll say, Well, what does the protocol look like? And they want to know how long it should be. And we always come back to that six-month mark. It seems to talk a lot about six months. And so this is for what I would say a lot of very common chronic health issues. So if you’re looking at things like digestive issues, hormone imbalances, fatigue, anxiety, depression, a lot of these things will, you know, you’re this is also a kind of on the heels of what you’re talking about that your body is very resilient. And oftentimes you can damage the heck out of your body. And it may take years, if not decades, for the knock to come, and then the knock comes. And then all of a sudden, we magically expect that all these, if we just eat one salad, or like go for a walk or meditate once, then that’s going to reverse all the, you know, decades of damage to our body. But realistically, if you think about it, it takes time, right? And it also takes a comprehensive approach. So it’s not just nutrition, it’s not just a laser, it’s not just your thoughts. It’s not just the bookends of your day and your habits that you’re implementing. It’s a combination of those things. And so there’s some patience that’s involved with that, too. And there’s this, you know, kind of, well, I want immediate results. Now, I want this to go away now. But it doesn’t always work that way. And I think sometimes we tend to skip over things that take time because we’re impatient, and we just want the thing to go away. And that’s a challenge a lot of our patients have and a lot of our practitioners have when they want to see really good results with their patients. They’re missing the time aspect of it. And I think six months is actually a really good starting point. After six months, we’re going to know, are we on the right track here? Are we missing something? Is there something we should remove or something that we should add? And so I think that’s interesting. Another reason why you’d be a really good doctor, Nikki.
Dr. Chad Woolner: One of the most common things that we tell patients and practitioners alike is the healing equation. It’s about doing the right things in the right order for the right amount of time. That’s the healing equation. That’s how you do it: right things, right order, right amount of time. That’s how the body heals.
Nikki Reed: And then that, like not knowing what the right amount of time is, like being that’s an X factor, right, that we just answer to. And that’s the most frustrating part of the whole lesson, I think it is like, when you know, we live in a society where we’re so used to quick fixes, I think. And we don’t really let things have a process. Even with medicine, which again, I’m a huge fan of, I love Western and conventional medicine, too. I do have a big appreciation for it. I, you know, I work with a company called Janessa, for example, which is the first clean medicine company on the planet I work, you know, and that’s, yeah, Gen X is wonderful. It’s, it’s, uh, you know, it’s the same active ingredient in your standard OTC meds. But without all the artificial chemicals and preservatives and all the things that are just unnecessary, right? So isn’t there a way to do both? Like, can’t we have a fever reducer and also use organic blueberry syrup as our sweetener? Like, why can’t we do both at the same time is my goal always. And that’s just such a great example. Even when fever reduces like time, right? We’re taught, okay, if we just give this medicine, then is the problem gone? Or is it just sort of giving us a bit of reprieve? And that’s how I try to look at medicine like, it’s a moment to breathe, to look at the actual problem, because the truth is, in medicine, there are no quick fixes. You can’t even look at a surgery as a quick fix, because there’s still healing. You know, and that’s the quickest fix of all is surgery, and there’s still time to heal.
Dr. Chad Woolner: My question for you is, now that you’ve got some of these answers that were previously unanswered, what do you foresee? And this is funny, this is a funny question coming on the heels of you saying we don’t know. Right? So we’re going to ask you to play crystal ball here. What do you foresee in the next 5-10 years with regard to your journey? And this could be a more holistic question, not just in terms of health, but also, clearly you’ve got a lot of really cool things happening right now in your life, that you’re passionate about, your photography, your art, what are the things that you see happening that are really exciting to you over the next 5-10 years? And obviously, your family as well?
Nikki Reed: So many, let me not answer that in 20 whole minutes. So in terms of health, we’ll just say there, I’ve, I feel really good about this. And I think it’s only when I shifted my mindset to understanding that illness is a gift to actually get you to open the door that I was like, Oh, look at what I’ve learned in the last three or four years. I mean, I’m so flattered that you keep saying I should be a doctor. Because truly, like I’ve found a whole area of passion, undiscovered passion in my life, and I feel like even just inspiring through curiosity, like not teaching people because what do I know to teach but just, you know, friends call me to talk about medical things. And I’m like, Hey, have you read this book? Or have you tried looking at this or just being able to share that kind of information? I’ll stay up till three o’clock in the morning reading medical journals. I read everything all the way through, but a gift that is to actually see life through a different lens at this stage, but a gift to be apparent and also now have some of that knowledge and understanding. So in the next 5-10 years of health, I feel really good about it. I actually think that this is in some weird way, some crazy, you know meant to be a journey that’s going to lead to something bigger and better and greater in that respect. I have to think that right otherwise you’re just frustrated and you know, feeling discouraged and it is nice I have to say to see the little wins right? The fact that three years ago I had you know multiple dentists I think I said 10 earlier but I was kind of joking. I think I got six opinions. I had probably five CT scans on my jaw. I probably had God I mean, I definitely had at least one if not two MRIs, multiple X-rays looking at my body, my lungs just that’s just one area of help. I’m just saying I had at least Gosh, a handful of dentists confirming like you have all these broken teeth we need to pull all these teeth. So then I started looking into what it looks like to get implants and root canals and what chemicals Am I putting in my mouth. And what are there like bio dentists like bio-identical materials I can use and it just puts you down this whole path. And guess what guys? Three opinions later, I finally had one, I asked to get my own CT scan back and I don’t know how to read a CT, but I was like, Can I just have my scan so I can show it to other doctors? And I started showing it and they’re like, I don’t see a crack in that tooth that they want to pull, I don’t see a thing. And so here we are, like three and a half years later, I actually don’t have a single bit of pain in any of these teeth, I ended up having bruised nerves and multiple dentists wanted to pull all these teeth on the right side of my mouth, which could have caused a whole host of other health problems later on down the line when you start messing with the jaw when it doesn’t need to happen. And that was all because I was sitting there going, You know what I’m going to trust my intuition and keep asking and keep looking and keep. And here I am, it’s completely healed. I mean, I have zero pain in my teeth and my drive, no cracks in my teeth, nothing. But one tiny win, right? But you’re like, Oh, I feel really good about that when you know, the wins are important, the little wins. And then you know, in terms of like, gosh, life and career and all those things. It’s really scary to leave the only career you’ve ever known for sure, especially as a woman. So I don’t know how many of your listeners are women. But the best advice I can give on that is you have to believe in the thing you want to do. We can actually like to compare that to, you know, health as well. But you have to believe in yourself. And the thing you want to do whatever that dream is, whatever that business is, you want to start whatever that goal is that you have, there might be some silly misconception that I can just clear up in five seconds that like, Oh, you’re an actor, so you would like self-fund everything and everything was easy. And Bo, let me just say right now, whatever numbers, you look up on Wikipedia that like we made for movies, that’s all a lie. None of that’s real. Wikipedia says I’m worth X amount of dollars. I wish I was Wikipedia, I wish that were true, never magistrale. So I’ll just tell you, I work my butt off, I have four jobs and companies that I work on to be able to support my dream of starting my business. So I work multiple jobs, to be able to reinvest into my own business, and I’m the only investor in my business. So it hasn’t been easy. It’s really hard, actually. But if you believe in it, there will be a way, you know, that kind of like belief in yourself inspires other people to see that and believe if you believe in your mission, there will be a way and you’re also never too old to make that transition or start that you know, I was so scared like approaching 30.And here I am, 34, going, “Oh my gosh, I changed careers.” And then I’m listening to you say, “Hey, maybe you should be a doctor.” And literally, I’m not gonna lie, I’ve got like a little spark in my brain going, “Do you want to go to medical school?” Maybe it’s not too late actually to transition into something else, as well. Life is this beautiful opportunity to continue to follow our areas of passion if we listen to them.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think you’ve shared some pretty insightful, very, very powerful nuggets for people to consider here. I’ve been super impressed. What were you going to say, Andrew?
Dr. Andrew Wells: I really want most of the listeners on this podcast or healthcare providers. And I really want them to think about what you just said. Because that really is the starting point for helping more people and helping more patients. We have a lot of practitioners who want to know well, how do you especially in the alternative health space? Well, how do you actually run a business doing that, right, you just talked about like, it’s not all rosy, we’ll have tons of money to play with and we can run successful businesses and have a good life outside of that. It can be really challenging, oftentimes, but the thing that you hit the nail on the head is if it starts when you start with a why a powerful enough why that you really believe in, then everything, everything happens at the right time and the right, you know, for the right reasons after that. And I think that was a really wise statement that you made. And I think of all the things we talked about. I really want Doctors to think about that, because that’s important.
Nikki Reed: Me too, and I feel like we don’t even have to convince them if they’re showing up to listen to this podcast, and obviously they’re here for a reason. But just to piggyback on that, what we need now more than anything is healthcare providers who are asking why. That’s what I would say. We have come so far in modern medicine, and we’ve learned so much, which is just a miracle and such a testament to how intelligent human beings are. But we’ve also lost our way quite a bit. There are some huge fundamental flaws in our healthcare system, in how we treat people, how we treat patients, and how we think about medicine, and food. And then the fear that’s been instilled, to simply ask questions. What I loved so much about the reading that I’ve been doing about my grandfather’s work is that he started something called… Oh my gosh, my dad is gonna be so mad that I’m about to butcher this, but it’s in bioethics, I need to call my dad. So I really missed starting a debate that was known, certainly all across this city, this state, this country, and then globally, because he knew doctors around the world. But it was a debate where he encouraged doctors to sit across from each other and debate different issues. He became very well known for it, and it actually continues to this day, which is so cool. Every time I think about that, I think, imagine the conversations that can come up if doctors are allowed to openly disagree, and encouraged to openly disagree, actually, on purpose with the intention of possibly opening up a couple of questions and doors and areas that maybe we’ve been told we can’t discuss for whatever reason. I don’t know, it doesn’t follow a textbook, or it wasn’t part of your training, or it wasn’t part of… But imagine what comes from debate. I just have been thinking about so much since I’ve been on this journey, the last couple of years with my health, about the importance of that. So maybe, even though I know you, of course, have probably a very open-minded, awesome audience listening to this, maybe we can make that continue elsewhere.
Dr. Chad Woolner: One of the most insightful points that I’ve heard was made by a Catholic priest. He came and spoke at a completely different denomination school. And he said, about this whole idea of disagreement, he said, “What I see today isn’t that we need to disagree less, it’s that we need to disagree better.” And I thought that was such a powerful point. And to your point, exactly, isn’t that the whole premise behind the scientific process? And that’s something over the past two, three years, over the past two years, that’s just something that we have seen completely go out the window. Is there any room for disagreement? And that’s been such an unfortunate thing because, at the end of the day, the greatest thing that gets lost in that is truth, you know? So two books that I want to mention that keep coming to mind through everything you’re saying, I keep hearing these two books. The first one is called “The Rabbit Effect.” Have you heard of that book before?
Nikki Reed: No, but I’m gonna write it down right now.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The Rabbit Effect is talked about in detail. Yeah, this was like back in the ’70s or ’80s. They were doing research on rabbits. And there was this research assistant who, no matter where she went, the rabbits in her group got better outcomes. They tried to account for all the different variables and control these different variables. And ultimately, what they found was this lab assistant. They finally started observing what she was doing. And she just… She was just being compassionate with these rabbits. She was kind to them, and she would speak to them, and she would just be compassionate. And they got better outcomes. So basically, the implications of it… We did a whole podcast on this, probably a year or two ago, about the implications of… I mean, if that has an impact on rabbits, think about human beings for crying out loud, you know? And so just through compassion, you know?
And then second is the other book, a book called Compassionomics, where they’re basically talking about how what your grandfather championed back in the day is like what research is now showing and evidence is now showing is the path forward that we’re going to see a dramatic impact on the improvement of the delivery of healthcare, health care costs, and all the social implications just through having a greater degree of the human element involved in it. So everything basically, you’ve been preaching is exactly what they’re saying now is the path forward, you know? Very, very profound.
Nikki Reed: Thank you. Yeah, what you just said is like such a nice button on all this too because that is a very important element of all healing and all medicine and everything is compassion.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, and that is the thing. In all honesty, what I’ve been super grateful for is the folks at Erchonia, all of their experts that we’ve had the privilege of getting to chat with on this podcast, and guests like you. That’s a common thread that has been woven through this. It’s very clear that you’re super passionate about what you’re doing, passionate about this kind of health journey and so many others as well. So you’re definitely in the right environment here because you’re preaching to an audience that sincerely cares about this message. And so we’re super grateful. And we’re grateful for the folks at Erchonia and all the good work that they’re doing with their lasers. Anything you want to add, Andrew?
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, Nikki, when you open your clinic, just let us know so we can refer patients to you. Yeah, we feel like that might happen.
Nikki Reed: Oh gosh, you know, I didn’t actually, who knows? Who knows, it’s really an area of passion for me. That’s what I’ve learned from this. And I feel so inspired, actually, by some of the amazing doctors that I’ve had the honor and privilege of working with throughout this. It’s been so, yeah, I don’t even, I can’t even explain. It makes you super emotional when you think about, like, just, I don’t know, the difference between, the difference it makes when there’s a doctor who gets it, you know, who’s there and willing to show up and willing to go home and think about their patients and think about, you know, maybe learning a little something new because their patient doesn’t fit into the conventional mold of what’s going on or fit into, like, that scope. That level of compassion that I think makes a good doctor, great doctors, like, they can’t just discover more, they have to, you know? And then I think about my grandfather, who’s still in his 90s, was going into the hospital multiple days a week, and he was so valuable to that hospital that they actually sent a driver in the end and brought him in because he donated his time until the end, multiple days a week. And that’s like the kind of special human being that you’re like, you’re here because you want to change humanity, you know?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, Nikki, this has been incredible. And we really appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to be here with us. I would say in closing, yeah, I keep thinking, this is an episode I want to make sure all of our practitioners listen to because I feel like there is tremendous wisdom that they can glean and inspiration from you. I never met your grandfather, but he sounds like an incredible human being, sounds like a very inspirational person, and ultimately, kind of the type of doctor we should all strive to be like, one way or another. So thank you. Thanks for sharing with us. So we appreciate you guys taking the time to listen to this episode. Again, we appreciate Nikki taking time out of her schedule to share her story, her experience, and her wisdom with us. It’s been a pleasure. And we look forward to sharing with you guys more in the next episode. Have a good one. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research, news, and links to upcoming live events, as well as an Erchonia e-community where you can access free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening, and we will catch you on the next episode.
Nikki Reed is a multifaceted artist, an advocate for health and the environment, and a successful entrepreneur. Best known for her role in the Twilight series, Reed’s career encompasses acting, writing, and directing. Her journey into health advocacy and sustainable entrepreneurship reflects her deep commitment to wellness, environmental stewardship, and innovative business practices. Reed’s latest ventures include the development of a sustainable jewelry line and an active role in promoting clean medicine. Her passionate advocacy for comprehensive healthcare, combined with her personal experiences, positions her as a compelling voice in the conversation around health, sustainability, and holistic living.
Episode #36 of “The Laser Light Show” featured an engaging conversation with Nikki Reed, widely recognized for her roles in the Twilight series and a passionate advocate for health and sustainability. Reed delves into her personal health journey, her transition from acting to entrepreneurship, and her recent ventures into sustainable business practices and photography. She also discusses her experience with Erchonia lasers, highlighting their role in her and her family’s health regimen.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here, along with Dr. Andrew Wells, and on this episode of The Laser Light Show, we are going to be sitting down to chat with Jeff and Julia Crawford from Maverick CrossFit. So let’s get started.
Julia Crawford: Thank you for having us.
Dr. Chad Woolner: This is exciting. So, you guys own and operate Maverick CrossFit. And the first thing they asked me before the show was, ‘Do you do CrossFit?’ And I asked them, ‘Can’t you tell?’ So apparently, I need to get back to CrossFit, which is the punchline here for this question. I need to get back to it. But your relationship with the folks at Erchonia is kind of interesting. Maybe tell us a little bit about that.
Julia Crawford: You go.
Jeff: So Amanda joined our gym maybe a year ago, probably a little over a year ago. And since then she’s kind of trickled in and pulled in quite a few.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s how this works, man. That’s how CrossFit works. You get one person and then all of a sudden.
Julia Crawford: It’s like,15 of them. It’s pretty.
Jeff: It’s a good amount. Yeah, they all come to the same class. And are you there when they move? If they move? I mean, that class is pretty much canceled.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And you’re the owner, but do you coach as well?
Jeff: Yes, do you? Okay, both of us own and coach quite a bit.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay. Fantastic. I would imagine it’s very similar to owning and operating a clinic. There’s a certain love that comes with it, you know. You’ve got your entrepreneurial side of things, in terms of owning and operating the business. But then being in the trenches and doing the coaching is a different skill set, obviously, but also involves a different kind of passion when working with folks in that sense.
Jeff: Yeah, I would say absolutely. I think predominantly in the CrossFit space, most of us are great coaches, not great entrepreneurs. That’s definitely been.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Nothing like chiropractic or medicine or anything. Everybody is an incredible entrepreneur.
Jeff: It’s similar.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Oh, totally. Yeah. Like, we all want to take care of people, and nobody wants to run the business side of things. Or is it the opposite? You’re a really good business operator and don’t really care too much about the people.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You get the two extremes, right? It’s pretty rare that you get that kind of sweet middle spot. I had a really good friend of mine and mentor of mine, my jujitsu instructor, and it was the same thing with Brazilian jiu jitsu. Most Brazilian jiu jitsu schools and I’m assuming again all martial arts, I mean, it’s the same story with everybody: incredible at doing Brazilian jiu jitsu, not incredible at running a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu business, you know? And so it’s these two different things. And again, it’s like it’s the same thing with everything. So apparently, you guys have navigated those waters well enough to be in business and be successful and doing well. Correct. Yes.
Jeff: Yeah, we’re I mean, we’re still trucking. I think.
Julia Crawford: We get the best of both.
Jeff: We do. We’ve spent a lot of time trying to develop that side of our personalities. It’s definitely counterintuitive. I think for most people who do something out of passion, and then try to leverage that for money, it’s a tricky situation because it kind of perverts the relationship with the business a little bit, for sure.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it can for sure. Both Yeah.
Jeff: So I think learning how to make money and understand that you are worth something, yeah, and that you can still provide an awesome amazing service for people and you’re not taking advantage of them, is tricky waters to navigate for a while.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, for sure. How long have you guys been doing it?
Jeff: The business has been open for about 11 years.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, wow.
Jeff: I’ve been a part of it for about nine and we bought it out completely about two years ago.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, so and that’s what city it is located in.
Jeff: Melbourne now?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay. In Melbourne. Okay. Right there.
Jeff: On our so I don’t know if anyone knows where we’re at.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, or labor. Yeah,
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s fantastic. So, very, very cool. So you guys are kind of past the… You know, I always think of business in terms of whatever, you know, I don’t even pay attention anymore at all to the SBA percentages or whatever. X percentage fail within the, you know, first five years, and within the next 10 years. And so, you being there for 11 years says a lot. That’s a huge milestone and marker for you guys. So, congratulations.
Jeff: Thank you.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome. So, so yeah, CrossFit. What were you doing before then?
Jeff: Before CrossFit as a career? Actually, did it work?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Did Yeah.
Jeff: Well, so I was in the Marines. Got other Marines who went into it for a few years. I was already into CrossFit. At this point, I knew it was something I wanted to do because I was passionate about it. And then, yeah, I just felt like my soul was being sucked out of my body every day at work.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And that’s a good sign that it’s time to leave.
Jeff: Yeah. So I had an opportunity, and I quit my job the same day. And two weeks later, I was doing CrossFit full-time and making no money. And that was pretty awesome. And that lasted for about nine years. So it’s been, I’m sure you guys know, starting, you guys own a business, right? So it’s tough at the beginning? Oh, yeah, I don’t think anybody really prepares you for the amount of work and sacrifice that goes into actually creating some of this profit 10 years later, not two years later.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I’m going to take a wild stab and guess that your experience as a Marine served you greatly in terms of business, if for no other reason. I’ve had several of my very, very good friends who are Marines. And if nothing else, it teaches you how to be okay with extreme discomfort for prolonged periods of time.
Jeff: Yeah, I can suffer for years.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And so that’s… I joke, but I’m very serious with a lot of people that business is a war of attrition. It’s he who can suffer longest and last, you know? And obviously, you know, we’re talking about the right kind of suffering. You talked about an initial type of discomfort and suffering of your soul being sucked out of your body. That’s the type of suffering where it’s time to leave. You know, this type of suffering that goes with growth is no different than the type of suffering. We’ll use CrossFit as an example. The type of suffering we go through in CrossFit is a good type of suffering, right? That’s growth. That’s the way that we build muscle. That’s the way that we build strength and health and vitality, you know? So, yeah, business… It can be… It’s not for the faint of heart. So, I’ve got a really good friend of mine who’s a chiropractor in Texas, and he has built an incredible chain of clinics down there. I mean, amazing. And I met him as an undergrad. And we’ve just, for whatever reason, kept in touch. He went to a completely different chiropractic college than I did. So, this is for Dr. Shattuck. If he’s listening out there, Dr. Daniel Shattuck is an amazing, amazing guy. And just, I think he’s now up to like four or five clinics. I mean, they’re just in the Austin area. And he’s just done well there. So, yeah, Marines are sharp, sharp folks. So, thanks for your service. So, yeah.
Jeff: I gotta give a shout-out to my mom, too. I was a terrible kid. And she essentially took everything away from me. So I’m great at having nothing. I think that prepared me for the Marines.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Good parents.
Jeff: Prepared me for business. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. So, Juliette, what’s your role in all this? What do you do in the business?
Julia Crawford: I’m the numbers girl. I handle all the money. Money limits what I can spend.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Hey, that’s good. We got one of those in our business to our CFO. Yeah.
Dr. Andrew Wells: He’s the spender. No.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Hey, in all fairness, when we started, we needed to let everybody know this when we started the business. What adjacent questions he asked me. Do you want a debit card? What did I say?
Dr. Andrew Wells: No. I said no first.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it makes it easier. I’m very self-aware in that regard. So, Jason, our CFO, is amazing. He does a great job there. But he tracks things. And so, Julius.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Do you also handle memberships? So, new people coming in, enrollment, making sure they’re sticking to the… Is that all you?
Julia Crawford: I do a little bit of both. So, I’ll get all of his overflow. Like if he gives me anything, I’m all overflowing, but mostly just money. And I do a lot of the personal training at the gym. And he’s my coach, too. So he’s been… He does a lot more than just run the business for sure.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Who digs into marketing books and marketing training and all that? Is that you? You heard, we already referenced this on the show. It’s so funny because it’s a laser light show. We’re talking about this, but nonetheless, still good. Do you guys know who Alex Hermoza is? Have you heard it, maybe read his book, “$100 Million Offer”? Great book. Isn’t that a great book? Yeah, he’s a sharp guy, sharp, sharp guy. So yeah. All right. Well, good. We’re on the same page here. So, you handle the numbers. So, tell us a little bit more about the story with Erchonia. So, they started coming in. I’m assuming you didn’t know about Erchonia before them.
Julia Crawford: Now, they came in, I would say semi-professional. Not that I don’t get paid.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. Professional amateur level. Professional CrossFit. Yeah. Okay.
Julia Crawford: Just went to Granite Games. So I competed at the highest level there. I think once that happened, they were like, oh, Julia.
Jeff: She’s actually good. We might need a dog who didn’t ever approach me.
Julia Crawford: And so they got me in, just to take care of I had some plantar fasciitis problems. So got me in for the laser. My foot is feeling so much better. I can’t even tell you
Dr. Chad Woolner: How many treatments?
Julia Crawford: I went every Tuesday and Thursday for a couple of months. Yeah. And I was doing PT with Brian as well.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay. And that’s the physical therapist that’s working with you guys. So you guys have when did that start?
Jeff: Five, six months ago. He probably moved in. Are you talking about Brian?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, yes. I’m a physical therapist. Now as part of that part of the team.
Jeff: Yes. He kind of… so he’s been in there about six months. Probably. What a great addition. Yeah, and CrossFit. Huge.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that seems like such a natural fit for that environment. Yeah.
Jeff: Bait Shop and like a shark pool.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Exactly. Yeah, no doubt. Yeah, exactly. So, you started having it used for plantar fasciitis, which helped out a ton.
Julia Crawford: Yeah, they actually gave me a laser to take home. I got the full treatment and got super spoiled.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What did you get the ERL?
Julia Crawford: Oh, yes. I do believe so.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Red and violet.
Julia Crawford: Yep.
Julia Crawford: Yep. There you go. Okay, so you started using that?
Julia Crawford: Yeah, I started using that I would use it just I’d be laying in bed. I’d be like, Hey, let me do your elbow. He’s like.
Jeff: No, she’d be like, Can you lay on my foot while I watch this?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Good husband there.
Julia Crawford: And that really helped. And then I gave it back. And I’ve been sad ever since. I get to go see them whenever.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome. So, tell us a little bit about what you’ve noticed in terms of competition using lasers.
Julia Crawford: I haven’t got to use it. I use it after the Granite Games, so just helping recover in between there.
Jeff: Okay, you went to them before, though? Right before the Granite Games?
Julia Crawford: No, it was after. And then I had this recent competition where he just took second place, and he’s a CrossFit, too.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Running a CrossFit gym is impressive enough as it is. That’s tough. But also, maintaining that level of fitness is pretty impressive. Thank you. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I just, so we’re clear in terms of my CrossFit experience, I was getting lapped by the old ladies, no joke. Like, they would just trash me, and I’m just like, I realized at that point in time, like, Yeah, my philosophy with AMRAPs was, the slower you go, the less you have to do. So I was always excited whenever I saw AMRAP up there because I was like, ‘Okay, this is good.’ I always hated the ones where you had to, like, finish it. It was like a big pit, a big plate of vegetables, you know? That’s how it always seemed to me. It’s like you got to clean your plate, man. So yeah, that was always a little embarrassing, but I was a very self-aware individual.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So speaking of old ladies who are fit, we recently did a podcast interview with Jerome Maruka. You actually weren’t on that one. But he, yeah, he’s in Georgia. He’s a chiropractor and has done a lot of strength training work with athletes for a long time. He’s kind of an OG in that realm. And he’s, he’s working with a lady who I think she’s 70 and just set the world record for the deadlift. So she’s also an Erchonia patient. She gets lasers on a regular basis to help with their performance aspects, but also just from a healing aspect when you’re training for competitions. And when you’re at that level, there’s a fine line between how far you can push it and not get injured, especially when you get into your 60s and 70s. And she’s, from what I understand, I haven’t met her, but Dr. Maruka says she’s extremely driven. I mean, there are no CrossFit athletes who are driven at all. Extremely driven, and she will push, push, push. And that’s been a really integral part of her training, getting the laser to make sure that she’s staying ahead of any potential injuries. So that was cool that you’ve heard of her.
Julia Crawford: Yes, I actually just watched the video, yes, just recently.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s impressive.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So humbling, knowing too that there’s a seventy-year-old woman. Oh, yeah, no doubt. Yeah. And also a testament to the human body that you can do that. Like, I hope all people over the age of 40, 50, 60 are listening to this, ’cause you can really, I’m assuming you hear this a lot too in CrossFit, like, ‘I’m too old to do that,’ or ‘my body can’t do that.’ But if you do it, you’ll find out pretty quickly that you can and should.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, Greg Glassman, that’s his name. Right, Greg Glassman, he was, we’ll put it lightly, a very polarizing figure, you know, and very outspoken. Yeah, I’m not sure where he’s at these days, but the thing that I admired was that he was very counterintuitive to a lot of kind of lame conventional thinking. And that was one of the cases in point that he was kind of challenged on, and he pushed back on. It was like, ‘Why in the world would an old, osteoporotic woman want to do CrossFit?’ And number one, that’s, you know, they’re assuming that you’re going to take this old, you know, 80-year-old woman and start, like, really, like, having her do, like, really extreme things without, like, easing things into it. But he’s, like, he’s, like, ‘Do you want this woman to bend over and pick up a pencil or pick up anything off the ground?’ Or, like, ‘Well, yeah,’ and he’s like, ‘Then wouldn’t it make sense to strengthen the muscles involved in that entire process?’ And they’re like, ‘Well, yeah, I guess so.’ You know, and he’s like, ‘That’s what deadlifting is all about. You assume that when you’re having a deadlift that you’re going to start them off at, like, 500 pounds or whatever.’ And it’s like, ‘No, you’re going to, you know, work up to that.’ And that was, that was the thing that I thought, again, my experience in CrossFit, again, is there’s, I think, there’s so many very similar, I think, to chiropractic, so many myths and misconceptions that surround it because it’s, it’s different. It’s different, or at least, I think it’s becoming more mainstream and accepted now. But at the time, when it arrived on the scene, it was very kind of, like, almost like controversial and, you know, edgy and polarizing and all that stuff. But the reality of it is, when I came in, it was like, there’s a process to it, especially with good coaching, you know, very, again, very similar to chiropractor, you can see you can have bad chiropractors, there are such thing as bad chiropractors, but I’d like to think that those are the minority, the majority are really good chiropractors, similar to CrossFit coaches, you probably have CrossFit coaches out there that are not good coaches, you know, and yeah, they exist. And that’s, but that’s not that shouldn’t be a reflection on CrossFit itself. That’s just a reflection on the coach. And so I’m assuming you guys see that and deal with those types of common misconceptions and myths and misunderstandings. right?
Jeff: Absolutely. The whole time the business has been open, we’ve been fighting against that. And all you can do is in your little pod, treat people well, get them healthy, and you know, do your best to keep people safe.
Julia Crawford:I work with a lady who has neuropathy and can’t walk. So she’s doing CrossFit every day. I mean, she absolutely needs personal training, but…
Dr. Chad Woolner: she makes good progress. Yeah, absolutely.
Jeff: It is, for sure, expanding what we understand the body’s capable of pre-CrossFit. Find me another training program that mixes aerobic training and strength training in the capacity that CrossFit does. It doesn’t exist. And not in a way that’s rudimentary, either. Like, these people are deadlifting 500 pounds and running sub-six-minute miles. That’s pretty impressive, that you would have said 20 years ago you would have been told that was impossible. I mean, you can’t develop both systems simultaneously, right? But now you actually can, and you can do it at a really high level. And for basic, everyday people, you can get people very, very fit so they can live a life that’s healthy and happy and fun, and they can be proactive with their kids. And what were they doing before CrossFit? You’re walking in a gym with a 60-year-old around a lap with slow-ass music on and you’re bored and nobody’s getting fitter. I know he’s getting fitter. You’re doing curls on a machine. Those places are dying off because they don’t work.
Dr. Chad Woolner: My favorite is to throw them under the bus. My favorite is the memes that are seen with Planet Fitness where they like honk alarms. They have lucky flowers. I’m thinking more of them… they have pizza days. Do you know what I’m talking about? They have donut days and pizza days. So there’s a gym franchise called Planet Fitness, and they have like these… Yeah, they have pizza night. No, I kid you not. And above it, it says ‘judgment-free zone’ is what it says. And so they like… Yeah, I’m like, ‘donut days and pizza days and stuff for people to enjoy.’ Because you know, that’s what you do. You go to the gym to eat pizza.
Jeff: I will say though, you know, I think they were onto something. If you look at the era that Planet Fitness came out, they were kind of going against the grain with Gold’s Gym and like kind of bro players. We’re intimidated to go in, you have the sleeveless steroid guys, Jack. But I think they missed the mark with the nutrition aspect because we all know, yeah, walking on the treadmill for 45 minutes, even three slices of pizza, isn’t really proactive toward your health.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, the thing I’ve said for myself, again, this is just my own experience with CrossFit, and um, this was my first real exposure to a group fitness-type atmosphere. So I didn’t have a whole lot. I’ve, you know, I played in high school, I played all as a kid, I played soccer, I was really good at soccer as a kid. And then I got into high school. And all of the players on the team were more interested in smoking weed than actually playing soccer. And so that was a big turnoff to me. And so I stopped playing sports and pursued music at that time. I played guitar all throughout high school, and that was my whole existence. And it was great. But at the same token, the trade-off was I wasn’t engaged in anything physically active at that point. I would lift weights once in a while, but nothing significant. And then that kind of continued on through my 20s. And it wasn’t until I was done with chiropractic college, and my friend invited me to go to CrossFit that I went there. And I would joke, but I was somewhat serious. I would say I do CrossFit because I’m lazy. And what I mean by that is, there was something very satisfying and nice about knowing that so long as I just showed up and did what I was told to do, I would get a result. I didn’t have to do my own programming. I didn’t have to, like, be busy, you know, and we sometimes, like, me anyways, I don’t know if you were the same way with your eye sometimes, like, there was like a chip on my shoulder or like an arrogance, we’ll call it, just call it what it is, right? I know this stuff. I did physiology in chiropractic college. I know what this guy is gonna teach me, blah, blah, blah, blah. And actually, it’s like, a lot like you don’t you know, like, Yes, I took physiology, but I don’t know, like, I did a little bit of the certified conditioning, Certified Strength and Conditioning Specialist. I did half of that program. And it was very quick for me to see, like, there’s a lot of depth here. And it’s way beyond my skill set. So I know what I know in terms of that, but I like that aspect of CrossFit that typically, you find that these workouts are designed to be really well-designed, you know what I mean to exactly what you said to help train multiple systems so that you really can achieve a high level of health and fitness there.
Jeff: Also, I think a big piece that’s missing in most of our lives is human connection. Totally. I mean, if you’re looking at the majority of adults, let’s say outside of college, where are they making friends nowadays? Most people are on their phones, they stay home all day, they go to work, they go home, and they live a fairly solitary life. It’s a great social aspect for people, and it keeps people mentally very healthy, not only the exercise aspect, which obviously drugs endorphins, but yeah, human connection is very… It’s lacking nowadays. Yeah, so to have a place you can go where it’s like literally a family… I mean, we’ve had members for 10 years, you know, these are people that have come to our wedding and been a part of our life.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Missing this episode, if for no other reason, is like stabbing my heart because the CrossFit gym that I used to go to, their patients of ours at our clinic, still, the other docs that work with me, they go, they’re consistent there. And we moved, and my excuse was it’s a little bit further from the gym, and that’s been my excuse. But now I’m feeling like this weight of shame and guilt resting slowly upon my shoulders. It’s telling me to get back because everything you’re saying is exactly what I enjoyed about that: the social aspects of being there, the community aspects. We were kind of like quasi-sponsoring an event that they put on. It was so good. It was Christmas time last year, and they were doing it as a fundraiser for a family who had a daughter with really severe medical issues, and, as you can imagine, medical bills that needed to be paid. So they were raising money. It’s just a good… yeah, anyway, I need to get back. I need to get… This episode is entitled unofficially, ‘Chad, you need to get back to CrossFit.’ Alright, you guys, did you guys… were you hired via our power secret CrossFit back in Meridian, Idaho?
Jeff: Like, 10% of that first month?
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s right. Fortunately, we do a trade with them. So I need to, yeah, I need to get, all the more reason to get back there. So yeah, I bought like, kind of my own little poor man’s CrossFit gym set up in my garage. But I don’t push myself as hard in there. I have like, ‘Oh, this will be easier. I’ll do it more consistently.’ And I’ll go, and I’ll, like, you know, it’s like going to a regular gym where you just, like, wander around and you’re like, ‘That machine looks cool. I’ll try that.’ The total is so bad.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Mostly Chad just flexing in the mirror. Darren.
Jeff: COVID, everybody told me like, ‘Oh, this is gonna be terrible for the gym. People are buying home gyms,’ like, right? Listen, I’ve been doing this for a long time. There’s about less than 10% of the population that survives in a home gym with any kind of consistency and results. I mean, it’s just not human nature to put yourself out there. Somebody like Jules could go out there. She’s got, like, an athlete’s mind. Where no matter what, she’s gonna get her workout in, right? Most people aren’t built that way; they need guidance. They need support. They need accountability. They need somebody to tell them what to do. So don’t waste an hour looking for something to do.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I totally need that. But they really want that and value it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Tonia. Yeah. So, Julia, tell us a little bit about your background. Obviously, you didn’t just overnight become a CrossFit superstar. Tell us your story.
Julia Crawford: No, I was going to school. And I didn’t really know much about CrossFit. The gym that I was at originally, just for fun, kind of like you.
Dr. Chad Woolner: This is a college school.
Julia Crawford: College.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Where do you go to college?
Julia Crawford: Eastern Florida.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Eastern Florida. So you guys are both Florida natives. All right.
Julia Crawford: So I was just going to college. I actually really wanted to be a PTA. like what I really wanted to do.
Dr. Chad Woolner: This is kind of similar in a cool way, right?
Julia Crawford: Yeah, it is. I just make way less money. But I love that about it, that I get to work with people. So that’s what I wanted to do. And then I met Jeff, and I was like, ‘I’m marrying this.
Dr. Chad Woolner: How’d you guys meet?
Julia Crawford: He actually recruited.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I forgot. That was the precursor to, I guess, not Facebook, but Tinder. I think that’s actually how, well, Facebook was originally. Mark Zuckerberg started as a ranking system for, you remember that, like? that’s originally how.
Jeff: dark days of the internet. I was in college because.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It was originally Facebook, that’s what they were calling it, The Facebook. So, you guys watched the story, right? That’s the whole… Anyway, so continue. Sorry.
Jeff: There man.
Julia Crawford: So you’re recruiting me over? I didn’t really know I was good at CrossFit. And he’s like, ‘Hey, you should come work out with our competition team.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And your background with athletics was what? Did you play sports?
Julia Crawford: I actually did competitive cheerleading and gymnastics my whole life.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s intense. We were talking about that earlier with somebody. Was it the dancer we talked about, or did you have a patient who was a dancer?
Jeff: Oh, it was Dancing with the Stars.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, that’s right. Yeah, Selma Blair. Yeah, dancing is intense. Well, we’re gonna lump cheerleading into dancing. I know it’s, yeah. No offense intended. My wife was a dancer, but it’s very physically demanding, you know, especially if you’re doing any of the tumbling stuff that’s involved and being dropped from like 20-foot heights and maybe not caught the way you should back on her, on her. Is that inevitable? Like when you’re in cheerleading? Is it inevitable that you’re gonna be dropped?
Julia Crawford: The one up in the sky? I was always the one who held every
Dr. Chad Woolner: So you’re the one that was getting people dropped on, falling on you, so competitive cheerleading, okay. So, and then, you guys meet?
Julia Crawford: Yeah, I met him the first day and I was like, I’m marrying this guy.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So it was love at first sight for you. So look at him. He’s a good-looking guy. We can see that with.
Dr. Andrew Wells: You desired to join the competitive team not because you wanted to do it competitively, but because he invited you.
Julia Crawford: I didn’t know what he looked like. He invited us over, and when I arrived, I thought, ‘I can’t work out with this guy.’ But I actually didn’t work out because I was so intimidated by him and the group of people that were there.
Dr. Chad Woolner: This reminds me of when I was a kid. I was invited to a birthday party, and I was too scared to eat. They had sloppy joes, and I was so hungry. That’s the story of my life right there: too embarrassed to do something, so I just sat in the corner. So, you didn’t work out? You were too embarrassed to work out. When did the rubber hit the road?
Julia Crawford: And then the Open came, and I was like, ‘Fittest in Brevard County.’ And he was ‘Fittest in Brevard County.’ We kind of connected.
Dr. Chad Woolner: A match made in CrossFit heaven.
Julia Crawford: We matched on the athletic level. There’s no business or anything like that.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And it just so happened that you guys had a good connection, personality-wise. You guys jived with each other? Not at first, okay.
Julia Crawford: He was my coach, actually. He asked me to come to the gym, and I was like, ‘Well, I really want to date you.’ And he’s like, ‘Well, we can date, but you have to make a choice. You can’t have both.’ And he’s like, ‘No, you’re coming to the gym.’ So, he was my coach when I started at the gym.
Dr. Chad Woolner: He was a business owner. Man, this was.
Julia Crawford: Very harsh. And yeah,
Jeff: I’ve softened. Since.
Julia Crawford: It was good, bad. I can’t even
Dr. Chad Woolner: How long were you guys there before getting engaged?
Julia Crawford: We’ve been together for nine years.
Jeff: I’m a late bloomer. Hey, it takes a while to come around.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s okay. So that’s kind of how you got into this whole realm. So what does the future hold for you in terms of CrossFit competition? What do you want to do?
Julia Crawford: I really want to give it. I’m like almost on the outside of being too old. If I wait any longer, I won’t be able to, in my opinion.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Since you brought it up, we have to ask, how old are both of you? Sorry about that.
Julia Crawford: I’m 30
Jeff: I’m 39
Dr. Chad Woolner: You guys are still young.
Julia Crawford: For me to possibly make it to the next level,
Dr. Chad Woolner: What age is considered old in the CrossFit realm? I know in sports like MMA and boxing, athletes typically start aging into their 30s.
Jeff: I think the answer has changed a lot over the last five years because you’re seeing a new wave of CrossFitters who grew up with CrossFit. You’re seeing 16-17-year-olds competing with 35-year-olds and outperforming them because CrossFit is all they’ve known. It’s their sport, and they have thousands of reps under their belt since childhood. So, if you asked that 10 years ago, you could have said late 20s to mid-30s. You’re right.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No big deal. Now that window is narrowing a lot more correctly.
Jeff: Yeah, 18 to 25. And then I think people are gonna get burned out. That is such a high volume for so long.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So the million-dollar question here then is, is Erchoniya playing a role in that longevity aspect of this career for you? And do you see that as part of the overall strategy to help you kind of stay in the game?
Julia Crawford: I hope so. I’ve always had dreams of going to the CrossFit Games. I’ve come up short twice now. So not too short. I mean, Jeff always says there’s a big difference between regional levels, which is the level that I’m at, like, what do you say college football?
Jeff: School to the NFL? I mean, there’s a huge gap. Do you want school? But yeah, that next step is, what do you, what percentage? Do you lose another 99%?
Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s always impressive to see the caliber of athleticism required, even at the most basic competitive level in CrossFit. And when you start getting up into those higher levels, it’s like the Olympics. You know, there’s that Jerry Seinfeld bit where he talks about the Olympics, and he’s like, the difference between the winners and losers is so minute, it’s like, “Guy best in the world. Never heard of him,” you know? It’s just an inch, in terms of that. It’s the same with CrossFit. When you go to the Games, it’s not like you, other than maybe Rich Froning, who everybody views as like Michael Jordan, like, he’s just a freak. The difference is not that much, you know what I mean? Because you’re just at such a high level. That’s wild, really, really wild. So my question for you is this: Right now, are you predominantly just using lasers yourself? Or have you had an actual practitioner that you’ve been working with that’s been helping you as well?
Julia Crawford: I haven’t actually seen a practitioner at all. They’ve demonstrated the lasers on me when I go to their office, which is right next to the gym, super close. And then they gave me the take-home one. Obviously, I’d love to be able to try to use it going into a comp, which we tried. But then I hurt my shoulder.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, ’cause I was gonna say, you know, but the way that Erchonia says it, and I’ve seen it, you know, they talk about using lasers in the fashion of good, better, and best, right? Good if you just put the laser on yourself and just do it, you know? Better if you involve some type of functional movement with it. And then best is just like you actually use resistance with it, you know, as well. And I would also say, there’s going to be a vast difference in using it in the hands of a lay person just using it on themselves versus a skilled practitioner, somebody like, let’s say, Jerome Ruka, you know, where I would be extremely confident you would see a massive difference in terms of the outcomes of having a skilled practitioner using the laser with you versus just using it. And the same goes for me, right? Me just lasering myself would be different than having an actual practitioner working with you and doing some cool, cool stuff like that.
Julia Crawford: Even though the top piece, like, for the longest time, so I was like holding it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: like an awkward angle. How we use this Petitioner would be better. So, do you have and so you’ve got your physical therapist that’s working with you? Has he been introduced to the laser world? And is he going to all the seminars and all that?
Julia Crawford: I brought him with me to Erchonia. once, once or twice now. So he’s.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s been his reaction to it so far?
Julia Crawford: He wants one, but he wants us to buy it. We’re like, ‘No, we’re gonna have to go to the grid.’ I’ve talked about this.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So I’m curious. Now in all of these conversations, I’m well aware that obviously, chiropractors use Erchonia lasers, and medical doctors use Erchonia lasers. Where is it in terms of PTS do you think have you heard much in terms of picky since it caught on you?
Dr. Andrew Wells: I don’t know, you guys just make way too much sense. Yeah. And I’m thinking about this, like, you know, having a PT in a CrossFit gym makes complete sense. Having a laser in a CrossFit gym, I think, makes almost even more sense, no doubt, because you can’t hurt anybody doing it. Everybody probably needs it, right? Even if it’s not for injury recovery, just for injury prevention.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What I would love to see in a CrossFit setting is a laser setup where, and I’m curious if Erchonia would be interested in sponsoring some type of research like this, where you had people do PRs with lasers and then go back and see, you know what I mean? Because the effect was… Yeah, that’s the thing. That’s one of the things that Jerome Ruka was saying, if there was talk at one point in time about them, I don’t want to say banning, but they were like, should we allow lasers to be used in competition? Because there is a performance enhancement effect for sure. And so they were like talking, but they’re like, you can’t, it’s not a drug, it’s a light, you know, and yet they see significance. If I’m not mistaken, was it Craig Buhler? Don’t quote me on this. So if this isn’t correct, sorry, Dr. Craig Buhler. But I want to say it was John Stockton’s chiropractor who was using an Erchonia laser on him as well. Does that sound right? Am I spreading misinformation? I think that’s it, okay, sorry. Maybe I know there are plenty of examples of athletes, high-performance athletes working with them, Erchonia. And well, I mean, for crying out loud, they have the synapse center with Parker that they’re doing, you know, a lot of the football players they’re using the Erchonia lasers too. And it’s an interesting realm because in general, you’ve got kind of two ways of looking at it. You have Erchonia lasers being used for injuries and actual problems. But then the other side of the spectrum is like performance enhancement. How do we actually maximize what people are able to do?
Jeff: Or are there actually studies on it regarding performance enhancements?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, I guarantee you there are.
Dr. Andrew Wells: If you look at mitochondrial function, one of the things that laser therapy does is help upregulate mitochondrial function. So there are lots of different ways you can do that. You can do that through exercise, diet, and sleep; there are a lot of different ways you can do that. But with a laser, it’s just a direct shot on your body.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, there are literally thousands of studies on laser therapy. The countries that have conducted the most research on this are Russia and the Eastern Bloc countries. So there’s definitely a performance component to it, for sure.
Jeff: No, negative.
Dr. Chad Woolner: None at all. Yeah, no known side effects. Yeah. And that’s the crit. And that’s why I say good, better, best, right? That is that literally you could, you could take this and use it and know and, and that’s what’s so cool. When you look at it, we’ve done a lot of interviews with Dr. Kirk Garr. He does a lot of outside-the-box-type approaches with these lasers in really interesting ways. And part of what drives him to do that is that curiosity. And that kind of like, you’re kind of like this blank canvas and that, you know, you can’t do any wrong. You can’t hurt the patient. So, you know, if you can’t there’s only upside there to the equation, you know, in terms of using them.
Julia Crawford: You wish and I did your elbow?
Dr. Chad Woolner: And have you used the laser on yourself as well?
Julia Crawford: I’ve tried.
Jeff: Like 9 pm at night, just like when you stop shining that laser on me?
Dr. Chad Woolner: So we got the FX 405 laser, which is their big, big daddy laser, and then the Sirona. Yeah, we got this Sirona, which is a non-invasive fat laser. At my clinic, we got those back in, I want to say March, April, or May, somewhere in that time, so not long ago. And we have seen time after time after time just miraculous outcomes. I mean, incredible stuff. I have never had a tool in my practice, other than one other tool that we use, a good friend of ours, who made an incredible ER T machine PMF device, incredible, amazing, but just incredible, amazing things we have seen with these lasers. I mean, just as we do at our clinic, we’ll do a treatment challenge. So we’ll have a patient come in. And I typically try to have some type of objective measure that they’ll do like, can you squat? Or can you bend your leg this way? Or bend this or do whatever, what can’t you do? We’ll do one treatment, typically anywhere between five to 10 minutes is pretty common. And then we’ll repeat that with just one treatment and they don’t feel it. But then they turn around and they’re like, what the heck just happened? So I’ve got video after video after video, I’ve got like nine or 10 of them that we share with patients. And so whenever we do a workshop, I’m like, we talked about the science behind it. And that’s cool. But I’ll just show you a whole series of these and it’s like at some point in time, and that’s the cool thing about it is we just invite patients to just try it for themselves. Just try it. See how it goes. And I heard this from Penny, who’s one of the reps who’s been brilliant. By the way, if you haven’t met Penny yet, she’s awesome. She said, her experience and she has been with the company 20 years. So it tells you a little bit about her background. She said 90% of the patients will notice 90% of the time, is that right? That was something like the vast majority will notice some type of improvement within one treatment. Yeah, it’s really, really incredible. So it’s been a lot of fun seeing that. So what holds the what’s in the future for you guys with your CrossFit gym? or, excuse me, we need to use the correct nomenclature in your CrossFit box? Sorry
Jeff: Don’t know, nothing’s changing, I don’t think for now, at least. We’ve had a really good couple of years, the community’s really great. We’ve put on an awesome event for the community. I think everything is about where we want it, really.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s fantastic. You know, that’s really impressive to hear. Because when we ask questions like that, not just to CrossFit box owners, but in general, it’s pretty rare to find somebody who’s like, ‘I love my life. I love where things are right now.’ Of course, you have goals, and I know you’re probably a very ambitious, goal-driven person and are a couple. But that’s really refreshing to hear, you know, that things are great. If you could wave the wand of your perfect life, you’re in it, you’re living it, you’re doing it.
Jeff: Maybe I wouldn’t coach at 5 am every day.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, change that. But yeah.
Jeff: Maybe I’d make that change. Overall, the business is healthy and happy. And yeah, you know, we’re stoked on that.
Julia Crawford: The Montgomerys are trying to get us to open one where they’re about to move.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The Montgomery’s who are the Hmong Camrys.
Jeff: That’s the other side of the family. Amanda?
Julia Crawford: I mean, Dan, Colby.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, yeah, fantastic. So they want you to open another gym, and where’s that, right?
Julia Crawford: They want us to open? I have two over there.
Jeff: We’ve had a map too before so it’s
Dr. Chad Woolner: Not out of the question.
Jeff: No, it would just have to be the right situation. You know, adding other layers of businesses, adds complications. They sound amazing, and then we actually add the complication. It’s not as fruitful as you’re hoping but adds a lot of extra stress.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I can completely appreciate that sometimes.
Jeff: Small businesses are often better in some sense, depending on what you want.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Totally. Well, especially when you’re self-aware and you know that you’re in that kind of sweet spot, that you’re enjoying, and you’re finding fulfillment there. That’s fantastic. Like, double down on that, keep doing that.
Jeff: I think a lot of times, we’re always told, ‘You have to go bigger, we need more numbers, we need a bigger space.’ But that doesn’t necessarily mean more profit or more happiness or more of any of those things. It just means more work.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, there’s a saying in business that I think sometimes gets misconstrued. They say, in business, you’re either growing or dying. And I think sometimes we assume that growth has to look like monetary growth. But I think that growth can also look like continued fulfillment, enjoyment, and improvement. Sure. So yeah, Exactly. I mean, growth takes on a different perspective. That’s something I’ve really philosophically explored a lot over the past few years because the question you have to ask sometimes is, to what end? Sometimes it’s not uncommon to see businesses and business owners who start with the best of intentions. And then, very similar, like when you see these stories about famous musicians and artists, you know, that they start, and then you already can see from the beginning where it’s headed. And then all of a sudden, they reach that pinnacle. But yet, it’s come at the expense of so many other incredibly valuable things like relationships and family and all that. So it’s just important that we recognize, you recognize clearly, obviously, like things are good where they’re at.
Jeff: And they are just part of our culture. We always want to keep up with the Joneses, the whole business, like, I need a bigger building because I’ll look more successful.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Right? Yeah, no, that’s important. So well, that’s amazing. Well, thank you guys so much for taking the time to be here with us. It’s been a great conversation, and we’re really excited about all the things you guys are doing here in Florida and working with Erchonia and your company. When’s the next competition?
Jeff: Probably the Opens, the next real one.
Julia Crawford: Yep. So the goal is to get to regionals.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Like winter is that in February, so not far off.
Jeff: Yield up and back to train in.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The Open still gives me this anxiety in my stomach. I’m like, oh, and I wasn’t even competing. I just had to do those workouts, and I knew that they were always grueling. Yeah, always tough. And I’m like, Oh, what are they gonna have us do? Yeah, and it was always different. The feel was different from your regular daily workouts.
Jeff: Think about any other fitness regimen. You get pumped up about seeing what the workout is the night before. That doesn’t exist outside of CrossFit.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, totally. Well, and that’s the thing. I typically wouldn’t look at the workout. For that very reason. I’m like, I’m just gonna go into it blind. Exactly, yeah. The named workouts were always the worst. Yeah.
Julia Crawford: We didn’t want those silly names for all of our workouts. A lot of them were just so sad.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, so you make all of them bad.
Jeff: Some of them are rough.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You’re like, it’s the inner Marine in you that just knows it’s good for them. Exactly. That’s fantastic. So, so good. Well, Andrew, any final thoughts?
Dr. Andrew Wells: Thank you guys for being on the show. We appreciate it. And best of luck to you and the competition in February and yeah, thanks for thanks for sharing this time with us. Absolutely.
Julia Crawford: Thank you guys.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Amazing conversation. For those listening. I hope this has been a ton of fun for you guys and super valuable. We’ll talk to everybody in the next episode. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.
Jeff and Julia Crawford are the owners and coaches at Maverick CrossFit, located in Melbourne, Florida. With Jeff’s background as a former Marine and Julia Crawford’s experience in competitive cheerleading and gymnastics, they bring a unique blend of discipline, athleticism, and passion to their gym. Over the years, they have successfully navigated the challenges of running a CrossFit gym, emphasizing community building, innovative training methods, and integrating therapeutic technologies like laser therapy to enhance athletic performance and recovery.
Episode #35 of “The Laser Light Show” podcast features Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells in conversation with Jeff and Julia Crawford, the dynamic duo behind Maverick CrossFit. The episode delves into the profound effects of laser therapy on athletic performance and recovery, particularly within the CrossFit community. Through their relationship with Erchonia, the leading company in low-level laser therapy, Jeff and Julia Crawford explore the integration of this technology in enhancing their CrossFit gym’s offerings.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here, along with Dr. Andrew Wells. In this episode of The Laser Light Show, we’re going to sit down with our good friend, Dr. Chris Hodel, and have a chat with him. Dr. Chris, We’re really glad you’re here, man.
Chris Hodel: Hey, I couldn’t be more privileged to be here. I’ve been listening to you guys for a long time, and it’s been a learning explosion. So, I’m excited to give back a little. I’ve been working with lasers for a long time now. Thanks for having me on.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome. So, you’re out in Colorado?
Chris Hodel: Yes, sir. We’re in Fort Collins, Colorado, at 212 Degree Wellness. We’ve got a unique path, especially as an advanced golfer in Fort Collins, Colorado. But, yeah, lasers have completely changed the game and have made us more of an integrative practice at this point. So, we’re just finding creative ways to apply lasers to people these days.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What does 212 degree wellness mean?
Chris Hodel: Yes, I answer that question many times—it’s about temperature. Indeed, a chemical engineer once mentioned to me that in Colorado, due to our elevation, the boiling point of water isn’t 212 degrees but closer to 202.5 degrees, which doesn’t quite have the same ring to it, you know? Nonetheless, the concept of 212 degrees as the boiling point of water symbolizes transformation and change. My vision from the start was to catalyze transforming people, helping them progress from one state to another. We are all about monitoring and transforming people’s health when they come into 212 Degree Wellness.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Fantastic. That’s an excellent vision. Wonderful. So, you go way back in the laser game. You’ve been with Erchonia, since…?
Chris Hodel: 15 years now, I believe. 2008 is when I got my first PL-5, which is what they called it back in the day.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You still have it?
Chris Hodel: You know what? I just sold it in December to someone who specializes in treating horses. She wanted it for herself. So, my laser’s name was Penelope back then, and it seems Penelope is still going strong in the equine world.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It somehow sounds so appropriate that Penelope would be used on horses. It just fits the name perfectly. That’s hilarious. Yeah, we were discussing this earlier in another episode about how we hope Erchonia will someday create a sort of laser museum to showcase the evolution of their technology. Because what came before the PL-5? Presumably, there was a PL-1.
Chris Hodel: Back in the day, the lasers were just boxier and stranger, but it’s always been fascinating how Erchonia has consistently used the 632-635 nanometer wavelength. Amazingly, it’s always been about that same red light. It’s not like they kept introducing completely different technologies; instead, they’ve focused on enhancing and building upon the red light technology. They’ve expanded their technology based on that research, too. Now, they’re offering some very exciting new developments that we had the privilege to learn about this weekend. Yes, it’s incredible.
Dr. Chad Woolner: For those who might not be familiar with Rolfing or its advanced aspects, I think that’s a great place to start. But maybe you could fill us in on what you’ve been doing, as well as your journey up to this point.
Chris Hodel: Yeah, thank you. I think if you asked 50 practitioners what Rolfing or Structural Integration is, you’d probably get 50 different answers. But in essence, it’s similar to chiropractic in that it’s about structural alignment. There are many special approaches within the practice. We often have to navigate around its somewhat peculiar name, which comes from Dr. Ida Rolf, the founder of Rolfing. So, we’re known for our work in Structural Integration, where we’re considered experts in fascial anatomy. This expertise has led us to focus on peripheral nerve entrapments, which involve a lot of fascial work and soft tissue manipulation.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And that sounds kind of ahead of its time. Sorry to interrupt, but I just wanted to say, from my perspective, it seems that in the past five to ten years, fascia has gained significant attention that it didn’t have before. I think, like many others, my initial understanding of fascia from histology class was quite basic: ‘Here’s fascia. It’s a connective tissue. The end.’ It seemed to play a minor role. But what we’re discovering now, like so many other aspects of human physiology and anatomy, is that there’s much more depth to it. So, you know, when Rolfing first started.
Chris Hodel: I think, well, you’ve put me on the spot, but I believe it was in the late ’60s when Dr. Ida Rolf, a biochemist at Columbia, introduced Rolfing. She was a remarkably intelligent woman. She brought this methodology to the forefront, exploring the ‘stuff’ that exists between our body’s structures. She developed a program at the Rolf Institute, which, to this day, remains unique in the country, located in Boulder, Colorado. There are international schools as well, but the approach to Structural Integration at the Rolf Institute is specific to that institution.
Fast forward to today, at least at 212 Degree Wellness, we’ve become so integrative. The introduction of lasers has significantly changed our practice. Rolfing has evolved into a vision through which I can understand systems, see fascia and strain patterns, and learn to energetically connect with people, sensing energies in the room. These become additional tools in our toolbox, ready to be utilized as needed. However, the introduction of lasers has added a new dimension, blending Rolfing’s vision with photochemistry to influence cell biology in ways that support our goals in Rolfing, especially for me as a golfer. It’s like looking at someone through the lens of Rolfing but using the science of photochemistry with lasers to enhance our objectives.
Dr. Andrew Wells: It kind of reminds me of our interviews with a couple of acupuncturists and Chinese medicine doctors on the podcast. They expressed a similar sentiment, emphasizing that, at their core, they’re still grounded in acupuncture or Chinese medicine. However, they’ve adopted these cool, almost Jedi-like abilities to enhance what they’re already doing in their specific modalities.
Chris Hodel: Yeah, coming into this podcast, the sense of gratitude I have for those who have come before me, and for the people I’ve listened to this weekend, is overwhelming. These individuals, these men and women, are truly amazing. I’ve learned a valuable skill: to do what smart people recommend. And that, indeed, is a skill. There have been so many people before me whose contributions make appointments magical, helping me find the right tool for each person, depending on what they need that day.
All I care about is that people leave my office happy and on the path to healing, feeling genuinely cared for. And some days, that feels like enough. It’s a vast puzzle, figuring out how to foster health in people. But to be a catalyst for someone’s journey of healing, to give someone the hope that they might not have to feel a certain way for the rest of their life, is an incredible dopamine kick.
Dr. Andrew Wells: We’ve been exploring this idea, particularly as we’re here at Erchonia’s annual business meeting in Orlando, finding ourselves at the tail end of a marathon podcasting and recording session. A recurring theme has emerged from our discussions, touching on both ends of the spectrum. Earlier, we spoke with Jamie Thayer about the vital need for human connection in healthcare—not just patients coming in out of necessity, but with a desire to be heard, to find hope, and to connect in a meaningful way that they might not find elsewhere.
On the opposite end of the spectrum, we’ve encountered stories of patients who’ve been dismissed by other healthcare providers, told there’s nothing to be done, and effectively forced into a mold where they don’t fit. But what’s interesting, and you mentioned this, is how crucial this aspect of connection is, especially when integrating technologies like laser therapy into treatment. Regardless of one’s role—be it a chiropractor or any other practitioner—the nature of laser therapy, which might seem intangible or elusive to patients (‘How is this going to work?’), underscores the importance of that initial connection. It sets the stage, plants a seed, and creates an opportunity for healing to occur, both from a temporal perspective and in allowing patients to open themselves up to the healing process. The significance of what you’re discussing—fostering that connection—is truly paramount.
Chris Hodel: I’ve always appreciated the luxury of time we’re afforded with our clients. Typically, when someone comes in, we have a 90-minute session planned out. This includes a health consultation and a comprehensive assessment, aiming to accomplish as much as possible. Initially, this 90-minute window is for the first month or the first three treatments. Then, we aim to transition them into a 60-minute schedule. The amount we can achieve with lasers, Rolfing, photochemistry, and neurological approaches in these sessions is substantial. We often refer to it as a ‘healing explosion’ due to the significant changes that can occur even within a 60-minute timeframe.
Comparatively, I’ve always been amazed at how chiropractors, many of whom are present at this event and whom I’ve trained with, manage to make significant progress in their brief 10-15 minute sessions. The time to process, to understand each other—me learning about them and them learning about me—is invaluable. Sometimes, clients just need a moment to transition from the stress of their commute, like ‘I hit every light on the way here,’ needing that on-ramp to the session. Similarly, a gentle off-ramp post-appointment, where we discuss what to focus on next.
I feel incredibly fortunate to have the luxury of time at 212 Wellness, allowing us to truly get to know our clients. While we might not have a high volume of clients—seeing about 15-20 people a day—it’s still a significant number, and I have a fantastic team supporting me. Together, we’ve found innovative ways to leverage laser therapy, ensuring each client receives the focused attention they need, beyond just an hour with me.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Let’s dive a bit deeper into that topic. How exactly are you guys utilizing lasers in your treatments?
Chris Hodel: In the 15 years I’ve been using Erchonia lasers, I often reflect on why I use them personally—why I aim to laser my brain every day. It’s not because I experience swelling, bleeding, pain, or any specific issues. It’s about self-preservation. I want to thrive, to be the best practitioner, dad, boss, and husband I can be. This means ensuring my brain is in its optimal state daily.
Taking it a step further, when I consider the people who come to see me, I realize they need more laser exposure, and more consistency in receiving this remarkable technology on their brain, belly, and what we like to call ‘booboos.’ With the FX 405, we acquired last year, we initiated a membership program—some might call it a subscription. The idea is simple: let’s get you in for a half-hour appointment twice a week. This allows us to see you more frequently and keep a closer eye on your progress.
Dr. Chad Woolner: For the doctors who are listening, could you share what you charge for that membership program, if you don’t mind me asking?
Chris Hodel: We’ve been experimenting with the pricing model, and you could say we’re in a beta testing phase. We haven’t exactly warned our clients, but we’re exploring to find the right price point that fits everyone’s needs. Currently, for those paying on an à la carte basis, we charge $60 for a half-hour appointment, and we recommend doing this a couple of times a week. However, many people prefer a membership model where we can charge them monthly. This approach helps create a sense of commitment; we’re not looking for people to start and stop sporadically because our goal is to guide them towards significant health improvements—whether it’s their belly, brain, or overall well-being.
Life doesn’t happen in a vacuum; everyday stresses are inevitable. We envision 212 Wellness and our laser therapy as a constant in our clients’ lives, a reliable asset they can turn to when things get tough. The idea is, ‘Okay, something stressful has happened, but I have my appointment tomorrow. We can address it then.’ This frequent, regular approach has led to tremendous results. It’s a different model, sure, but it’s tailored to meet the varied needs of our clients and how they benefit from laser therapy.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Is it $60 per session, or $60 per month?
Chris Hodel: $60 per session. The pricing for our services is in the range of $350 to $400, though I focus more on the goal of helping and fixing people, letting my fantastic team handle the specifics of packaging and pricing. Our primary motivation has always been to support our clients.
Additionally, we’ve been innovative with our laser rental program, which has been in place for a year or two. For instance, with Penelope, I was among the first to offer it for rent at about $100 for a week, providing instructions for its use, including entering specific codes for different treatments. This approach allowed clients to continue their therapy at home, which was quite effective.
The technology has evolved to become even more user-friendly—now, it’s as simple as pressing a button. Our clients appreciate this convenience, and it has broadened the scope of conditions we address, from broken clavicles and long COVID symptoms to minor injuries like dropping a can on one’s foot.
What stands out about the culture at 212 Wellness is that when someone experiences pain or discomfort, their first thought is to see if laser therapy can help. More often than not, the answer is a resounding yes.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s truly amazing. Fifteen years of working with lasers is quite an accomplishment. Can you share where you went to chiropractic school?
Chris Hodel: Yeah, so here’s a twist: I’m a bit of a snake in the grass in that regard. I’ve never actually attended chiropractic school. I was accepting the ‘doctor’ acknowledgements earlier, but truth be told, I am not a doctor.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, I had assumed differently this whole time. That’s quite interesting. Could you share more about the Rolfing program?
Chris Hodel: Yeah, the Rolfing program spans a year and a half, divided into three sections, each lasting about three months. It’s certainly a unique educational experience. My academic background includes an undergraduate degree from Pacific Lutheran University in Tacoma, Washington, where I was preparing for a career in physical therapy. However, my trajectory changed somewhat unexpectedly.
To give a bit of background, I played collegiate football and suffered a broken ankle. Originally from Alaska, I went back home for recovery. That’s when my dad surprised me with a Rolfing appointment. I remember thinking, ‘Rolfing? What’s that?’ I had never heard of it and was planning to see a physical therapist. My dad had heard good things about this Rolfer, Mark Hutton, who turned out to be one of those almost mythic healers you hear about. This encounter took place in Alaska, not Washington, despite my educational ties there. My experience with Mark was nothing short of amazing, and it has deeply influenced my path.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What did that experience look like, in terms of detail? I’m genuinely interested to hear more about this whole process.
Chris Hodel: I experienced a confirmed avulsion fracture; a basketball mishap led to a severe ankle injury. The next day, after an x-ray confirmed the fracture, my dad had arranged a Rolfing appointment for me. Fresh from the injury, my ankle was significantly swollen, and I was understandably skeptical, especially in the absence of any high-tech treatments like lasers.
The session began with the Rolfer, Mark Hutton, focusing on seemingly unrelated areas like my toes and knee, avoiding the visibly affected ankle. His method was gentle, almost deceptively simple, working calmly on the fascia around my leg. Despite my initial doubts, particularly as he avoided the ‘problem’ area, Mark’s subtle manipulations led to a dramatic, almost immediate response from my nervous system—a wave of relief that was palpable throughout my body.
By the next morning, the swelling had vanished, leaving no visible difference between the two ankles, a result that defied my understanding and expectations based on my training in physical therapy. This experience planted a seed of curiosity about Rolfing, drawing me toward its mysterious and seemingly miraculous potential.
Despite still pursuing my undergrad and preparing for a career in physical therapy, this encounter steered me towards Rolfing. I completed my degree but chose to attend Rolfing School in Boulder, driven by a deep trust in the healing I had experienced.
Mark Hutton’s guidance didn’t end there. Shortly after I became a certified Rolfer, he insisted on the importance of integrating laser therapy into my practice for its synergistic benefits with Rolfing’s objectives. Trusting his judgment, I acquired a laser, and as I grew in my practice, the results spoke for themselves. Clients continued to improve, underscoring the effectiveness of this integrated approach.
Fast forward 15 years, and my practice has evolved into a more integrative healing space. Despite the occasional ‘Voodoo doctor’ jest, the consistent and significant improvements seen in our clients—many of whom had almost given up hope after trying numerous treatments—affirm the value of our work. Our approach, blending Rolfing with applied kinesiology, laser therapy, and a deep understanding of the body’s physiology, may be hard to neatly explain, but the outcomes are undeniable. The loyalty and referrals from families underscore the impact of our treatments, offering a testament to the healing journey that began with my own experience.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What types of cases typically come through your practice?
Chris Hodel: Yeah, the range of cases we see is truly vast, covering virtually everything. However, I have a particular interest in peripheral nerve entrapments. That’s an area I specialize in. When it comes to hands-on treatment, I’m all for it. Often, I hear from patients that I can push harder if needed. This usually comes from those who are somewhat familiar with Rolfing and, given its reputation, arrive braced for an intense experience. The name ‘Rolfing’ itself seems to prepare them for something significant.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The name ‘Rolfing’ alone tends to conjure up images of a very intense, maybe even harsh treatment as if one is gearing up for a bit of a beating.
Chris Hodel: I love Rolfing, but we do grapple with the name, which has been a talking point for the 15 years I’ve been practicing. It tends to raise eyebrows or conjure up some misconceptions. We often lean into the term ‘Structural Integration’ to provide a clearer understanding of what we do. Mentioning ‘laser’ tends to pique interest differently, leading to curious questions like, ‘Do you cut holes in walls with it?’ when in fact, it’s used therapeutically, even on the brain.
To directly address your question, our practice is highly integrative. We pull from a diverse toolbox to meet each person where they are on any given day. This approach has proven to be an effective launchpad for initiating the healing process, offering a broad spectrum of treatments tailored to individual needs.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Have you had productive conversations with other healthcare professionals in your area about your approach and how it complements conventional treatments?
Chris Hodel: Absolutely, I’ve had meaningful conversations with DEOs, functional medicine practitioners, chiropractors, and many others who now refer patients to 212 Wellness. I reciprocate by referring patients to them as well. For about a decade, I was on a journey to fully grasp my practice. Perhaps I overanalyzed, but I felt the need to be well-prepared for these discussions. I recognized early on that what we were doing was special, though challenging to articulate. This has always left me with a bit of a chip on my shoulder—this sense that I can’t fully explain the transformative events that occur during sessions, but undeniably, something profound is happening.
It might touch upon the quantum realm or the shifting of energetic patterns within individuals. I’ve come to accept, rather than explain every detail, the incredible design of the human body and its innate capacity for self-repair, especially once the obstacles are removed. Over the years, I’ve realized my knack for removing these blocks, for clearing the path to healing. Watching this process unfold, facilitating it without having to dissect its every aspect, has been both humbling and gratifying.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I’ve been in this field long enough to recognize that there are individuals who are naturally gifted healers, irrespective of their official titles as doctors or non-doctors. My journey through the broad spectrum of healthcare has led me to encounter many incredible people who contribute significantly to the well-being of others. While professional titles have their place, I’ve learned they aren’t the ultimate measure of one’s ability to heal. The essence of healing transcends these titles, especially when you have the right tools at your disposal, like laser therapy.
Discussing with Kurt Derr, we touched on how lasers bring a high level of predictability to treatments due to their consistent nature—the wavelength remains the same, regardless of who is using the device. This is in stark contrast to the variability inherent in manual therapies, where individual touch and technique can differ significantly. This isn’t to say one is better than the other; both have their unique advantages and challenges. Laser therapy offers reliability and consistency, serving as a pillar in the treatment process, while manual therapies bring the irreplaceable human element into healing. This combination allows for the best of both worlds, integrating the predictable with the quantum aspects of healing, which is truly fascinating to see in practice.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Do you believe that referring to Chris as a doctor earlier has any bearing on his abilities as a healer? Does the title, in your view, enhance his effectiveness or the perception of his skills in any way?
Dr. Chad Woolner: He heard that? Nice. It’s funny, during our conversation, I just naturally assumed you were a chiropractor. It seemed like a logical progression, right? Interestingly, we currently have a massage therapist in our clinic who was vaguely familiar with Rolfing, just like I was. She’s been accepted into a chiropractic college in Florida and plans to attend this summer. When I inquired about her career aspirations, she expressed a desire to complete chiropractic school followed by Rolfing training. This led me to assume that perhaps you had taken a similar path—completing chiropractic education before venturing into Rolfing.
However, her description of the training, much like yours, painted a picture of an intense, thoroughly designed program. It sounded incredibly legitimate and well-conceived, emphasizing the depth and seriousness of the discipline. This conversation has certainly added layers to my understanding of the diverse paths in the healing professions and the rigorous training involved.
Chris Hodel: It’s often said that anyone can take a body apart, but the real skill lies in putting it back together. This sentiment beautifully encapsulates the importance of a strategic approach to healing. Simply addressing a symptom, like a painful leg, doesn’t get to the root of the issue—it’s about understanding how each part is integrated into the whole. Our ability to weave these connections, to treat the body as a cohesive unit, is where our strength lies. The laser has become an irreplaceable tool in this process, enabling us to integrate healing across the body more swiftly and effectively than ever before. It’s transformed me into a better practitioner.
Being here this weekend, and after attending countless Erchonia seminars and utilizing lasers for so many years, I’m convinced more than ever that we’re at the forefront of healthcare innovation. In these times, people need us more than ever—to support them, to help them return to a state of thriving. It’s an immense honor to have access to such beautifully designed lasers that communicate so effectively with the body. It’s truly a gift.
Looking ahead, I see exciting changes on the horizon. Our mission is to support individuals, meet them where they’re at, apply this amazing technology, and witness their journey back to thriving. It’s an incredible position to be in, offering hope and healing with every session.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Absolutely, and beautifully said indeed. So, Chris, it has been truly incredible having you with us. Thank you so much for taking time out of your busy schedule to join us today. It was fascinating to hear about your background and your journey. Before we conclude, Dr. Wells, do you have any final thoughts or comments you’d like to share?
Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s interesting, I’ve come to realize that my final thought for each podcast episode tends to be the same. It’s a reflection or insight that I find consistently relevant, regardless of the topic at hand. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s good. Yeah, that’s good. I echo the same thing.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Thanks for sharing the stories from your background. We’d love to have you on another podcast episode in the future and keep doing what you’re doing, helping people. Yeah.
Chris Hodel: Thank you, guys. Appreciate you.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Alright, everybody. I hope this has been valuable for you. And we will chat with you on the next episode. Have a good one. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access additional resources, including advanced training and business tools for free. Again, thanks for listening, and we will catch you on the next episode.
Chris Hodel is a distinguished practitioner at 212 Degree Wellness in Fort Collins, Colorado. With over 15 years of experience in utilizing Erchonia lasers, Chris has carved a unique path in the healthcare industry by combining Rolfing and laser technology. His expertise lies in Structural Integration, fascial anatomy, and peripheral nerve entrapments, through which he aims to transform and enhance people’s health and well-being.
Episode #34 of The Laser Light Show, hosted by Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells, features a conversation with Chris Hodel. In this engaging episode, Chris shares his journey from an undergraduate studying to be a physical therapist to becoming a renowned figure in Rolfing and laser therapy. The discussion reveals how lasers have revolutionized his practice, making it more integrative and effective in treating various conditions. Chris also delves into the significance of the name “212 Degree Wellness,” his background, and his vision for the future of healthcare.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here, alongside Dr. Andrew Wells. In this episode of The Laser Light Show, we’re excited to be talking with Dr. Ryan Manning. Let’s dive into the conversation.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
Dr. Ryan Manning: Thank you so much. I’m happy to be here.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So, you’re down in Arizona, is that right?
Dr. Ryan Manning: No, I’m actually in Los Angeles.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, in Los Angeles. Okay. I assumed you were in Arizona. So, where in LA are you?
Dr. Ryan Manning: I live in Tarzana, but I practice all over, from Beverly Hills to Malibu to Pacific Palisades. So, I only do house calls and operate strictly as a concierge.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, wow. That’s awesome. I believe that’s a first for us on this show, isn’t it? Yes, it is. That’s incredible. So, tell us a bit about your practice and what you do.
Dr. Ryan Manning: I began my journey in the healthcare field when I was around 10 years old. I would massage my dad, and interestingly, I also massaged his chiropractor during visits. In return, the chiropractor would adjust me. This exchange continued for four years. Then, when I was 14, the chiropractor, noting my skills, suggested, “You’re pretty good. Why don’t you come work on my patients?” So, during the summers, I started treating his patients. It was then that I began piecing together clinical data, analyzing X-rays, observing degeneration, and determining whether pain in a specific area was direct or referred. I was fortunate to have some exceptionally brilliant chiropractors guide me through this process. By the time I was 18, I became a certified massage therapist and started working in the entertainment industry, notably in movies. Although I still consider myself a massage therapist, I have been a licensed chiropractor for seven years now.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s cool. What a cool upbringing and story. Moving on now, you also use Erchonia lasers in your practice as well, correct?
Dr. Ryan Manning: Yeah, well, I was first introduced to lasers when I was actually in grad school. Our county was wise in setting up and sending the kids to use lasers. But we didn’t have one in my pod, because it would be used more for kids with disabilities who couldn’t achieve the results otherwise. And because I was in my pod, you know, instructors would come to me and say, ‘I don’t even know what to do with this patient.’ Because I had so much experience. Sure, I didn’t use the laser, but I paid attention to it. I was fortunate enough, a year ago, to run across it again. I gave Penny a phone call after I looked into some of the clinical studies. And that was it. I just said, ‘Okay, I’ll try one. I’ll take a step out.’ I had a couple of injuries that were devastating to me personally. One was inflicted by my daughter. She said, ‘Dad, close your eyes.’ And I was like, ‘Oh, she’s going to do something sweet.’ Then she says, ‘Spider attack!’ She jumps on me, hooks an arm behind my neck, and wraps her legs around me. Just so you know, I had vertigo when I was 18 years old. So, closing my eyes, I want to fall over to begin with. Oh no, then I started to, you know, gently dump her on her back, which means she cinched herself in behind my neck. Oh no. Then she let go of her legs but kept that tight grip behind my neck. And I heard ligaments tear. My right foot went numb immediately. And I was just like, ‘I can’t believe this.’ So there was my neck injury, six years ago. And just like any good doctor, I did not go get an MRI and I ignored it. I knew what was wrong and I knew the fix. They were going to tell me I needed surgery. But luckily, well, I did stem cells, and the stem cells alleviated a lot of the neurological problems I had. The paresthesia down the spine kind of went away, and the numbness in the foot went away, but I was left with this terrible pain. And that was six years ago. So that’s one injury. Then, two years ago, I broke my ankle wakeboarding. Wow, it was a pretty serious injury. I had two fractures across the tibial plateau, hanging on by a shoestring. It was just good enough that I didn’t need surgery. And then I broke the fibula. But it was like, ‘Let’s just hold off on surgery. Let’s see how you do after a year.’ And after a year and a half, I’m like, ‘Man, I cannot run at all. If somebody was shooting at my kids, I would have looked like a pirate with a peg leg.’ Just, between my ankle and my neck, I was depressed. I wasn’t sleeping, I was in so much pain. And both of them were probably like a nine on average.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And you were practicing this whole time, through all of this.
Dr. Ryan Manning: Of course. So, you know, I would get a little therapy here and there, but nothing really seemed to make a difference. I knew I had to have surgery, so I decided to accelerate the process. I thought, “Well, it’s entry-level. Let’s see what it does.” So, I started using laser therapy on myself and felt the effects almost immediately. However, it wasn’t providing sustained pain relief, but I continued with it.
At the same time, Penny mentioned the laser lipo. “Does that work?” I asked. I was skeptical despite knowing it was available. She assured me it worked, albeit not as effectively as the other treatments. Despite my skepticism, I decided to laser myself three times a week, targeting my neck, ankle, and abdomen. About two weeks later, I started noticing improvements in my neck. But the first significant sign of change was when putting on my shoes became unexpectedly easy. I realized the pressure I had been feeling due to my weight was alleviating.
I asked my girlfriend if she noticed any difference, and even I was surprised to see how much my abs had reduced. That’s when I got serious about the laser therapy. The moment that truly amazed me involved my neck’s recovery during a seminar on a patient with a Chiari malformation. The speaker suggested treating the scar with a laser, which significantly improved her range of motion. This success story mirrored my own experience with neck pain relief, which was astonishing.
Following this revelation, I experienced a moment of profound emotional release when I effortlessly ran down a set of stairs, a feat I thought impossible due to my ankle condition. Previously, my orthopedic surgeon had warned me about needing an ankle replacement if I didn’t undergo surgery. However, after demonstrating my improved mobility with the laser therapy, the surgeon was astounded and reconsidered his surgical recommendation in favor of stem cell treatment.
This personal journey has made me a believer in the power of laser therapy. I’ve found that it not only responds to physical application but also to the belief in its efficacy. Surprisingly, it has worked on conditions like nausea when applied to unrelated areas like the ankle, illustrating its versatile potential for healing. I’ve witnessed what seem like miracles and could share countless stories of its incredible effects, despite receiving no compensation for my endorsements. It’s a testament to the genuine impact this technology has had on my life. So, let me know what else you’d like to know.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s wild. Well, I guess it’s an incredible starting place to work from.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yes, many of the doctors we talk to—actually, most of the doctors—began using laser therapy primarily for personal use, for themselves or their family, because they encountered a problem or an issue that wasn’t healing. Or, they attended a seminar, learned about laser therapy, and thought, ‘Hmm, I wonder if that could help with something related to XYZ.’ Here’s another great example of that.
In your case, I would say those are some profound and extreme injuries—’devastating’ was the word you used. And yes, it’s particularly devastating for a chiropractor who has to travel and see patients, especially for being a young person. That’s scary, having to face these multiple surgeries. And here we are, using light therapy to heal these issues.
As we’ve discussed on the podcast many times, it seems like a miracle. However, it might not feel as much of a miracle when you hear about it repeatedly. Yes, it’s a reproducible thing, which is just great.
Dr. Ryan Manning: I’d say the most miraculous event I’ve witnessed involved a friend who’s a doctor with access to advanced lasers. His wife was critically ill, verging on death. He reached out, asking for prayers for his wife, who was in dire straits after taking Ozempic off-label for weight loss. Unfortunately, she developed severe pancreatitis and cholecystitis, leading to metabolic acidosis, kidney failure, liver failure, and heart failure in just four days. She was rapidly deteriorating.
That night, he was told to prepare for the worst, as she had only a 3% chance of surviving the night. I reminded him of his lasers and suggested he use them to target her brain, immune system, and pancreas, given the limited time. Following my advice, he spent about thirty minutes using the lasers on her. Afterward, the attending doctor said they would keep him updated.
It was a bleak prognosis, but he spent the entire night waiting for a call that never came. Early the next morning, he returned to the hospital, where the doctors were astonished. They had no explanation for her survival other than calling it a miraculous recovery. It was the most challenging case and the most remarkable recovery they had ever witnessed. Remarkably, she didn’t just survive; she was improving.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I’m assuming the doctors had no idea he was using a laser on them.
Dr. Ryan Manning: No, I don’t think so. I believe they would have allowed it. But, surprisingly, she survived. They expected her to be in the ICU for 30 days, yet she was discharged in just five days. Wow. However, she developed diabetes as a result.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Wow. Type One, I’m assuming Yeah.
Dr. Ryan Manning: But she’s coming out of it, even the diabetes.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s incredible. Wow.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I guess that’s okay, sorry. That’s incredible. Yeah, so, we often hear about issues like the musculoskeletal problems you experienced, Dr. Manning, but in this case, it’s truly a lifesaver.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The thing I love about these types of stories is their sheer number. It would be one thing if there were only a small handful of these anecdotes. Even if there were hundreds or thousands, I understand they’re anecdotal. I’m not making any claims here. But it’s nonetheless incredible and fascinating when you see two angles of evidence. On one hand, there’s the research we all value highly—clinical, rigorous research—which is continuing and is indeed amazing. But on the other hand, we also hear about these so-called “miracle” stories, which are both fun and entertaining.
For instance, we interviewed someone—I’m momentarily forgetting her name—who had a patient treated with the Emerald laser for Crohn’s disease. According to her, the patient was significantly improved, if not cured. She was very clear, as we are, that we’re not claiming the Emerald laser cures Crohn’s. Yet, she was simply reporting what happened, and there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s the ability to report outcomes without making unfounded claims that are truly valuable.
The challenge lies in the prevalence of empty claims across various products. However, the solid research backing these lasers makes the miracle stories much more compelling, at least to me. It’s somewhat astonishing.
So, tell us more. What other experiences have you had? What else stands out?
Dr. Ryan Manning: I have a patient who is about 65 years old, a remarkable individual who has won at least one Emmy, possibly more. She’s a genuinely lovely person. She’s expressed a willingness to share her story on video because she believes it’s important for others to understand the impact this treatment has had on her life.
When I first met her, she was struggling with several health issues. Despite being overweight, her condition was complicated by a severe knee injury from a car accident, necessitating a knee replacement. Her other knee was also in pain. Her lab results were erratic, and she was battling a tooth infection. A highly respected professional at Cedars in the dentistry field told her that she needed a bone graft for her tooth, a procedure costing $10,000. Additionally, she had inflammation in her retina and a general sense of unwellness.
On our first meeting, she approached me with such difficulty that I was concerned for her safety in my RV, which we were in the process of refurbishing to serve as a mobile treatment unit for on-location Zerona treatments.
Despite the RV’s ongoing renovations, we decided to proceed with her treatment there, willing to accommodate the construction inconveniences because we were eager to help. Initially, she had a significant challenge with mobility, struggling to walk short distances without pain and being unable to climb stairs without difficulty.
After just three Zerona laser treatments, she reported a remarkable improvement, excitedly telling me she felt incredible and had even started jogging in our driveway. This was a significant change from her previous condition, where she couldn’t walk more than a few hundred feet without stopping due to pain. Additionally, she had been dealing with neurological issues, which we addressed with thrice-weekly Zerona laser treatments, exclusively for laser lipolysis.
About a month and a half later, she amazed us by walking five miles in a single day, bursting with energy and visibly losing inches, though interestingly, her weight remained constant for about two months. This discrepancy might be attributed to an increase in bone density or muscle mass, which are known effects of the treatment, though further evidence is needed to confirm this theory.
Her transformation was so profound that her friends noticed a significant change in her appearance; her eyes were brighter, and her hair began to grow healthier. At one point, she needed to undergo dental surgery, but I offered to treat her with our medical lasers instead, applying a unique approach that diverges from conventional methods by using a combination of light treatments targeted at bone and infection.
This unconventional, yet gentle, application of laser therapy exemplifies our innovative approach to treatment, focusing on enhancing the patient’s overall well-being and addressing specific health challenges with personalized care.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So what does that look like specifically?
Dr. Ryan Manning: Stalking lasers, where, you know, I take—I have the base station. So, I have two EV RLS and then one accelerator. Okay, and I’ll put all three of them on. Okay. So, I placed it on her tooth, and she made a face, like, ‘Oh God,’ as if she was swallowing poison because she was tasting the pus coming out. So, we did that six times. And then, as she was going in for her surgery, I said.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Hey, how often did this happen over?
Dr. Ryan Manning: three weeks, Six times, Over the past two weeks, she came about three times a week on average. However, there was a week where she missed a couple of times.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Were you having her open her mouth to get in?
Dr. Ryan Manning: I would perform the procedure over the mouth, but I would also do it from the inside. She would just make this face. So, I said, ‘Hey, when you go in for this surgery, I want you to have them take X-rays. You know, make sure that you need the surgery because why would you undergo surgery if it’s healed, right?’ It was what was happening as she was getting less of that reaction over time. ‘Okay, well, you’re getting less pus; that’s probably less infection.’ But what was incredible was how her eyes cleared. I mean, that was even before doing the Arona. Her eyes were getting clearer. But it was when we started using the medical lasers on the tooth that her eyes became pearly white.
So, she goes to the dentist and says, ‘Hey, I want extra shots.’ Three times he confirms that she needs the surgery due to the infection. He refused to take one. So, she didn’t want to argue after asking three times. You’re not going to tell a doctor what to do, especially if he’s somewhat egotistical. They put her under anesthesia. When she woke up, she started probing around with her tongue and she was like, ‘What did you do? I don’t feel anything.’ The doctor wouldn’t even look at her. The staff avoided eye contact as well. They were like, ‘Well, it looks like it mineralized, but we think there’s still an infection. You’re going to have to come back, and we’ll figure out a new game plan.’
So, she texted me, and I just said, ‘I think it’s time you get a second opinion.’ And she did, from a very well-known doctor. He took X-rays and said, ‘Here’s your infection. It’s gone.’ That just saved her $10,000 and unnecessary surgery.
And there’s more. She needed a knee replacement for her right knee, and her left knee was bothering her, probably because of how she was walking. Her left knee pain stopped. The right knee pain and the size of her right knee shrunk to half its size. I never thought I would see arthritis resolve itself, but it did.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Wow. This is a Knee osteoarthritic.
Dr. Ryan Manning: Osteoarthritis,” she began, her voice tinged with awe. “She’s reversing aging in her joints. Integrating this with clinical thinking—oh, and here’s something she showed me the other day. Her liver enzymes,” she paused for emphasis, “look at this. Three, maybe four months ago, here was her level. Now, look at where it’s at.” The change was stark, almost a vertical drop. “The doctor was astounded. ‘What did you do?’ he asked. He confessed he’d never seen enzymes plummet like that. ‘There’s only one explanation,’ she told him. ‘It’s the Arona and the medical lasers.'”
The enthusiasm in her voice was palpable. “She’s eager to share her story. She believes this needs to become more widespread.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, that’s precisely the point. Before we began this interview, you mentioned that your primary motivation is to distribute these tools as widely as possible to assist as many people as you can. Essentially, we share the same mission, right? Erchonia shares this commitment too. Despite some skepticism—yes, we’re selling lasers, and I acknowledge that—the truly impressive and admirable aspect of Erchonia, which is undeniable, is our approach. We’ve stated repeatedly that there are simpler ways to earn money. Of course, profit is important in a business enterprise, but significant resources are devoted to clinical research to ensure the best possible patient outcomes. Witnessing this growth and increasing recognition of our therapies as mainstream interventions is exhilarating. Their effectiveness and simplicity make them increasingly preferred. For instance, consider a patient who could have faced a highly invasive surgery. Not every case can avoid surgery, and I understand that. However, when there’s a chance to spare patients from such procedures, it highlights the incredible utility of these tools. Beyond that, there are numerous other remarkable uses and applications for these lasers.
Dr. Andrew Wells: When you first walked into the room, Ryan, your passion was immediately apparent. You expressed how much you love what our company is doing and the message we’re spreading. Your enthusiasm is unmistakably genuine—I can see it as we speak. However, some might perceive it as akin to an MLM pitch, thinking, “Here comes another ‘incredible opportunity’ that’s supposedly life-changing.” We’ve all encountered those pitches. Despite the skepticism, the stories we share, including yours, might seem too good to be true. But I want to emphasize, especially to our listeners—be they patients, potential patients, or fellow providers—that Dr. Manning and we aren’t compensated for this. We’ve created this podcast solely to share valuable information and stories.
This is a storytelling platform. We’re here to disseminate information and narratives. For those interested in the science—such as the physiology of how lasers work—the research is readily available and free to access. Erchonia, for instance, holds nearly two dozen patents in low-level laser therapy, all underpinned by solid research aimed at understanding the mechanisms at play. This evidence, juxtaposed with the countless success stories we’ve heard, underscores the authenticity of our discussions. We, healthcare providers, are driven by a genuine desire to help.
Too often, the default recommendation is surgery, with the bleak prognosis that without it, the patient’s condition will deteriorate—or even with it, outcomes may be suboptimal. The lack of options is disheartening. Yet, here we have a tool, remarkably straightforward to use, that consistently delivers positive results, regardless of the settings used. Chad and I are continually amazed by its efficacy and often wonder why it isn’t more widely available to both providers and patients.
It’s a thought-provoking notion—while nearly every American home has a medicine cabinet, why not a laser cabinet? Or at least, a dedicated space for tools that can aid in self-care and the care of loved ones? These simple yet effective tools should be more accessible across America and globally, providing a means to address health challenges proactively.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So, you’ve been working extensively throughout Hollywood and the entertainment industry, correct? How did you get into that?
Dr. Ryan Manning: I used to work as a stage manager when I was 18 years old for a company called Warren Entertainment in Valencia. We managed jails, morgues, apartments, and open stages where big productions like “Speed Two” would film. These soundstages allowed for building whatever was needed for the production. Once filming began, everyone knew their roles, like keeping the three-foot line clear and not smoking. Questions rarely arose, but when they did, I was the go-to person. So, I would be there, essentially making $1 a minute, while having nothing to do for 12 hours except hang out. My first major movie gig was “Scream Two”.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, and you were acting in it?
Dr. Ryan Manning: No. But actually, my ex-wife and I were at this event where they had all their friends and family in a classroom. There was a particularly funny moment when they tried to tell a joke. I was sitting right behind Sara Geller, and the joke was so lame. During one take, they said it and everyone was supposed to laugh, and I got everyone. Everyone just burst out laughing, so when you watch it, you’ll see that the laughter is completely genuine, despite the stupid joke. I think I even caught my ex grabbing her stomach and laughing. That’s funny.
That rolled from one moment to the next. I’ve just tried to be good to people and show them love, and it’s worked out well for me. I’ve gotten pretty far. I’ve met some really interesting people. You know, there’s only so much you can say, but I’ve met people from all walks of life, from the richest man in the world to royal families, and I’ve worked with homeless people too.
I’m not kidding. Just two weeks ago, I treated a lady who couldn’t put her foot down. She was walking on her heel and had just gotten released from jail, but she had some nasty infection on the bottom of her foot. So I popped it out and treated her right there. It was better. She couldn’t walk on it, but she knew it felt better. She didn’t have searing pain when she wasn’t walking on it. It was right before my eyes.
You know, you can have clinical studies, which is obviously what doctors want to see. But when you have somebody like Selma Blair, who was just on Dancing with the Stars.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I saw that Yeah.
Dr. Ryan Manning: I have a picture on my Instagram of her son treating her with the Erchonia laser. I said, ‘Kid, come here, you’ll remember this forever.’ So she was suffering.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What was the issue with her foot?
Dr. Ryan Manning: It was a problem with everything. She went from living a sedentary lifestyle to Dancing with the Stars. I don’t care if you’re Antonio Brown and you just came off the season. He was crying, you know, everyone was crying at the end of the day.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s intense. My wife was a dancer throughout high school. Yes, it’s very demanding in terms of movement and taxing on your ankles, knees, and hips. She had all sorts of issues.
Dr. Ryan Manning: Well, that’s what happened to Selma. So, you know, she basically developed quite a few stress fractures – ankles, knee, both hips. One of her tendons was getting ready to snap in her ankle, and the doctor said, ‘You can still dance,’ but she had bilateral acetabular tears. He suggested, ‘Maybe you just do it in the pool, and then you don’t really rehearse, you just do the show. But if you fall, you’re gonna break a hip. And if that tendon tears one more centimeter, it’s gonna completely rupture.’ And I was like, ‘And you’re actually considering it?’ I said, ‘Now, I can’t tell you what to do. But I’m telling you, you know it – like, I give you the advice like you’re my child. Is that clear? I would never let you do it. What cost? No. The show must go on.’ And I’m like, ‘She’s like, “Well, you know, I was thinking about it.’ I’m like, ‘Well, look at it like this. Some cars go down the road, and there are cars that barely move, but they’re going down the road. You have missing hubcaps. One wheel is off. Is this a little more important than a car?’ Yeah. I’m like, ‘You know, at what cost? You broke your hip, and now you have to repair that.’ And so, anyway, she knew she had to quit. And she made the right decision and got out and bowed out gracefully. But she posted, you know, using your Erchonia laser, where her knee was so swollen. I mean, in 20 minutes, the swelling was probably down by two-thirds. Right before her eyes, she posted that. That’s why I can talk about that, yeah. And the MS community, just so they know, there is hope for you, and you really can heal because, you know, I don’t know what she’s going to do. But I have a feeling that you’ll be hearing her talk about the lasers, and you’ll probably be seeing her at a convention sometime soon. That’s exciting, showing up for them, because, you know, she saw what it did firsthand. And she knows that the only reason, I mean, or at least a major contributing factor, was the lasers. Even this Rona and she’s thin. But that thing helped her. She goes, ‘I feel so much better. It helps her muscles.
Dr. Chad Woolner: We often discuss this point, particularly concerning Arona—it’s often pigeonholed as solely a non-invasive fat loss laser. However, it’s more accurate to describe it as a systemic laser.
Dr. Ryan Manning: I’ve used it on a knee. Yeah, I was like, “You know what, I’m just me,” because it was well-used and on our knee, on someone’s knee, because I just… she had to dance, and it was hurting her so much. And I was like, “Well, here we go.” And I stacked all three lasers and this Arona on the knee, and then just watched it go. I mean, she goes, literally, in two days, she goes, “It’s fine.” But then I went away for 10 days, she wasn’t getting lasered, and she was doing… I don’t know, some rapid-fire dance, and that’s where the stress fractures and stuff started to come out. So that was the end of it. But she had a really good run. And, you know, I think a lot of that was due to Zerona. And Erchonia.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Typically, how many patients are you able to see in a day with your mobile practice?
Dr. Ryan Manning: I prefer not to see too many patients. I recall during my school days, in one of the very first classes, they introduced us to the human body and aimed to manage our expectations. They asked, “At the end of your first year when you’re a graduate, how many people do you think you’ll see?” Some answered 30 or 40. One person even said 80. When they came to me, I replied, “Four?” They were taken aback. I clarified, “At most, four.” So typically, I spend about an hour with each patient. If I see two people a day, I’m satisfied. I prefer not to work too hard.
That’s why I didn’t want to practice in a setting where I’d be overwhelmed. I’ve traveled to Dubai with a patient, and just a couple of months ago, I was in London with another. I want to have the flexibility to travel. I don’t treat severely injured individuals because I lack the time, and considering my concierge practice and other commitments in life, I tend to avoid it. If I were in an office setting, I might consider it, but it’s too much responsibility for me to handle alone.
That’s why I refer patients to other doctors like Dr. Gare or Trevor, who can provide the necessary care for those who require more attention.
Dr. Chad Woolner: How much of your schedule involves traveling with people?
Dr. Ryan Manning: And not too much anymore? I don’t have a family. So yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I was going to say, that’s quite the commitment level there.
Dr. Ryan Manning: Yeah, it’s nice to go away for 10 days and see the world, and meet interesting people. I remember sitting next to a patient, and this British MP was talking about politics and Putin. I felt like a fish out of water, sitting there, wondering why I was with these people discussing foreign policy and the official stance of their country. They were British, and they were fawning over my celebrity patient. He’s exceedingly wealthy, just casually calling people and saying, “Let me hook you up with them.” It made me nervous seeing them get all worked up, which in turn made me nervous. I try to live a humble life, so flashy displays don’t impress me. What impresses me is how people treat others, regardless of their means. It’s not about the money.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I don’t think I’m alone in this, maybe I am. But whenever I talk to people who work with celebrities or athletes, I assume everyone wants to know who’s the best and who’s the worst. Not regarding the way they treat people. You know, that’s the first, at least for me. Am I alone? Are you thinking the same thing? That’s one of my first questions. I was wondering, okay, who are the celebrities that surprised you in a good way? Who is just amazing? And then who were the ones that were just not good to people, you know? We won’t put you on the spot with that.
Dr. Ryan Manning: Nikki Reed and Ian Somerhalder are incredibly lovely people, and I’m hopeful that they’ll be on the podcast, discussing the glory of lasers. Then there are people, I mean, you know, here’s the ironic thing for me: when you’re the one helping people feel better, they don’t treat you the way they treat others. Like if you’re an assistant, they’ll just dispose of you in a second or get mad at you. I typically see the best side of people, even ones who are notoriously kind of jerks. However, I also shy away from them. I don’t want to deal with people who can turn on even their staff. You know, when that phone rings, and you’re like, ‘Oh, I’ll just leave.’ Yeah, there was a period in my life where I felt like I had to deal with this and swallow some things, you know, take it with a grain of salt. But now I’m like, ‘No if I don’t like it, I don’t work.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s great. So, you’ve had an incredible career, which seems quite distinct from many other practitioners. We appreciate you sharing your unique perspective. It’s inspiring to hear your firsthand experiences with these lasers. Thank you for taking the time to be here with us. Do you have any final thoughts, Dr. Wells?
Dr. Andrew Wells: Thank you for sharing your story and your passion for using lasers. Hopefully, other doctors will be encouraged to consider it if they haven’t already. They can benefit from helping patients in a new way and creating their own miracle stories.
Dr. Ryan Manning: I’d like to close with this: the real miracle behind the light is the people here. They are truly special individuals, and their hearts are in the right place. They could easily accept others’ money and lose control, potentially dampening the light’s impact. But their pure intentions have blessed them. They understand the power of light to change physiology; after all, we’re all made of light. That’s the special thing about the company.
The product is amazing, not just the light itself, but also the construction mechanisms. I’ve dropped those lights numerous times; I prop them up in my RV to shine down on people while I’m working and forget about them, but they keep going.
I hope people will consider it, and look at the clinical studies; everything they do is top-notch. Once you try the entry-level laser, you’ll never look back. I’ve hardly been sick since owning these lasers. When I got COVID, I woke up on the third day with a sore throat, but after shining the laser, the discomfort vanished in half an hour. Since then, whenever I feel like I’m getting sick, I repeat the process, and it works every time.
I once treated a guy with MERSA; in 12 minutes, his months-old wounds had scabbed over. I also treated my daughter’s friend who broke her wrist; after lasering it twice through the cast, there was no swelling when the cast was removed for surgery. The doctor was astonished.
It’s almost too good to be true, but once you experience it, you’ll understand.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Amazing. Thank you so much for being here with us, Ryan. We appreciate it. And to everybody else, thanks again. We’ll talk to you in the next episode. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access additional resources and advanced training tools for free. Again, thanks for listening, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.
Dr. Ryan Manning is a licensed chiropractor and certified massage therapist based in Los Angeles, serving an exclusive clientele from Beverly Hills to Malibu and Pacific Palisades through his unique concierge service. Starting his journey in healthcare at a young age, Dr. Manning has evolved his practice to integrate traditional chiropractic care with innovative laser therapy, emphasizing personalized, house-call services. His diverse background, from treating patients during his summer breaks as a teenager to working in the entertainment industry, has shaped his holistic and flexible approach to patient care.
Episode #33 of The Laser Light Show features Dr. Ryan Manning, a chiropractor who specializes in concierge services across Los Angeles, utilizing advanced laser therapy to treat various conditions. Hosted by Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells, this episode explores Dr. Manning’s journey from a young massage therapist to a pioneering practitioner in laser therapy. The discussion highlights Dr. Manning’s personal experiences with laser therapy, including his remarkable recovery from injuries and his passion for bringing this technology to a broader audience. The episode also delves into miraculous recovery stories attributed to laser therapy, underscoring its potential beyond traditional medical treatments.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here, along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells. And on today’s episode of The Laser Light Show, we have the privilege of having Dr. Stephanie Wautier and Jamie Thayer with us. We are super excited to chat with them. So, let’s get to it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Alright, welcome to the show everyone, and a special welcome to Dr. Stephanie and Jamie Thayer. Thank you guys so much for being here.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Thanks for having us. We’re very excited to be on the podcast. Yes.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So we obviously have met Jamie before; she’s been a guest with us. Amazing. We had such a fun time with you. This is our first time meeting Dr. Stephanie thanks for being here.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Thank you so much. You know, it’s funny, I knew that Jamie had been on your podcast before. And I said I don’t know if people really know who she is. Right. We know her expertise. And we know how amazing she is. Some people might know her from this Arona Glow Your Business page. But I said, “Jamie, please let me tell people who you are. Jamie and I are actually co-owners of Glow Sculpting Spa. I am a chiropractor and own my own clinic, which is called Watch Your Wellness Chiropractic and Massage. But we have both businesses in one lovely, beautiful building. And, you know, Jamie, by education, she’s an exercise physiologist. She’s a medical laser specialist. She also owns an Anytime Fitness franchise in Harvey, Michigan. So she’s worked in this personal training and medical wellness industry since 1994.
Dr. Andrew Wells: She was four years old when she started actually – she was a prodigy.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: And, you know, she’s worked with organizations like the US powerlifting team. She’s also USA W and NCSA certified in our community. She’s a radio host, and she’s also a social media influencer. I mean, I could just talk and talk. I mean, she’s an innovator. She’s a developer, she’s a strategist, she is a marketing genius. And you know, she’s partnered with Erchonia to do that, that Facebook page, that Glow Your Business. And I just wanted people to kind of know a little bit about, like, how we got to know each other, how we partnered, she has amazing things to say and share. But I wanted everybody to kind of know who she was, and where she came from.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Jamie is amazing. You know, when we first got ours and Rona. She was so helpful, friendly and kind to my wife, Amber, who is running that side of the business for us. And so Amber reached out to her, and she was always just so willing and eager to help. And so it’s, she’s a sweetheart, okay, you guys are just way too just gushing.
Jamie Thayer: honestly, I didn’t pay for this. And I’m happy to help. And of course, Dr. Steph is absolutely amazing. And it was actually like a major godsend in you know, Angel in my life about 12 years ago.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So, you know, good business partnerships are not a terribly common find. And so when they do occur, you can sense that. And so it’s obvious that there’s a great deal of mutual respect that’s there between you two, which probably accounts to a large extent as to why you guys have had the success you’ve had in your business we said this like so many times, if it’s one of my favorites, it’s an old African proverb that said if you want to go fast, go alone if you want to go far go together. And such a really, true concept. And so it’s neat to see when I’ve been really fortunate and lucky in my life to have some amazing business partnerships. Business partnerships are not unlike in fact they’re almost exactly like marriage. Right? You know, you probably spend more time in your business as sick and twisted as that is you know in terms of the way things go you spend more time with your business partners everybody always jokes the Andrews, my business wife.
Dr. Andrew Wells: You know, you’re my business wife. We argue about this. So the funny thing is Dr. Stephanie gave Jamie a glowing introduction. And obviously, you guys are business partners and best friends and Chad is my business partner and one of my best friends. However, every morning when I wake up, he goes, What’s up, dummy? What do you do? My wife’s like you guys talk to each other? It’s more of a deer. Yeah, we have a great deal of love for each other. We call each other dummy and stupid. It’s some reason it makes our day better and brighter. Got the other ones? To do that. I don’t think we’re gonna do that behind.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: the word that’s thrown around once in a while like, hey. We are very honest with each other. Hey, that’s sometimes brutally honest. Yeah, it’s good.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So Dr. Stephanie, where did you go to school.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: I went to Palmer in Davenport, Iowa.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s where Dr. Andrews.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Oh, seven one. Okay,
Dr. Andrew Wells: So yeah, you were a little bit before I started in Oh, seven, I think okay. So we might have just passed each other. That’s great. Yeah. Hello, friend. Hello.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So how did you two meet?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Can I tell the story? Sure. She gets a little embarrassed sometimes about this great story because she’s humble. And so it was about 12 years ago, I was having a lot of issues with my lumbar spine. I had seen physical therapists, orthopedic doctors, and interventional radiologists, I had every sort of intervention that way. rhizotomy nerve blocks, the whole gamut. And I was on a whole list of pain meds, including some you know, like Neurontin that had me forgetting things. I carried a little notepad with me at all times, so I could record things that I should not, like, forget. And then I started having issues where I was starting to kind of like, well peed my pants. And I felt so frustrated because, you know, this interventional radiology, you know, when I said, I think I need to see, you know, someone else, they wanted to continue. And then I’m, I knew something was greatly wrong. And I didn’t have a ton of experience with chiropractic care. And I was at that time managing a gym. This is previous to when I bought my Anytime Fitness. And her practice was down the road. So I walked in one day and spoke to her office manager and said, I don’t know, can she help me? And she said, Well, that’s a book first, you know, consultation. After ordering the X-rays, and going through that, my first appointment with Dr. Steph, she sat me down and politely said in her very sweet voice. I’m not going to adjust to you today. And here’s why. And I think you need to see a neurologist. And it was shocking, but I felt okay, this woman is finally taking me seriously and doesn’t just want to shuffle me around or give me more meds. And so she asked me if she could, you know, process a referral request to a local neurology department at the local hospital. And the fact that for one, they took her so seriously that within about 48 hours, the nurse from that department called me and scheduled an appointment. I met with a neurologist. They ordered an MRI and I was in surgery in a week with a multi-level spinal fusion. Wow. Yep. So not only did she refer to me but I thought she was incredibly ethical. She checked on me during the process.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What was the official diagnosis? I’m just curious. spondylolisthesis bottle, okay. Wow,
Dr. Jamie Thayer: yeah. And I end up with a three-level fusion. They went anterior. I was in the hospital for about five days. And then the road of recovery was pretty intense after that, but Dr. Steph and her office manager Val who’s amazing also, I mean, they brought me magazines over, they brought me little treats, they checked on me, I just felt like who are these people? And so really, I mean, as I said, the sheer ethical response and like the care that she took was just mind-blowing.
Dr. Chad Woolner: They drilled into us in chiropractic college, something that I think this is such a beautiful story because it illustrates because these are not the types of cases that come in through the door every week, you know, in fact, these are pretty rare, but this is the point. They said that the sign of a good chiropractor isn’t just when the chiropractor knows when to adjust, but rather when not to adjust. And this is exactly what I guarantee you there probably would have been plenty of other docs no offense to anybody else. But just truth be told, who wouldn’t have bothered to have taken the time to evaluate? And would have been fine to just and maybe that wouldn’t have done any, maybe it wouldn’t have. But the point being is, the fact is that you had somebody who cared enough to do a thorough evaluation to find some significant issues there and then get you the help that you needed. Speaks volumes. So absolutely.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: So she stuck with me for life. You know, I think I actually was like, we need to go out for coffee. Like once I can drive and we need to go out for coffee. And we did and we’ve just become really fast friends. And yeah, she’s my family now.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s amazing. So the question is, who introduced them to Erchonia Lasers? That’s the question.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Well, you know, here’s another thing we’re like, let’s catch up. Let’s catch up, you know, and we went to lunch, and I had already had the FX and the ERL in my very, like musculoskeletal chiropractic practice.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Can I just interject here? Sure. So before this happened, I was actually scheduled for another surgery. Because you know, once you have a spinal fusion, it’s very typical to have issues further up, and you had just purchased the FX 635. And I came in and started getting lasered and I still have not had that surgery.
Dr. Chad Woolner: How shortly after the surgery, were you getting lasered?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: It was actually I had the surgery scheduled? And I canceled it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I mean, the initial one, how long after the initial one was?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: This would have been like seven years? Oh, okay.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So would have been a while it was totally different.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: It was just further up. Okay. And because you had this FX 635, and I’d come in for that. So that’s another side note, too. And I guess, you know, that’s kind of, I mean, I guess thinking about it and speaking about it out loud. Now, I mean, that’s pretty remarkable.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So that is huge. Because I can’t tell you the number of patients over the years that we’ve, I mean, there’s a reason why there’s an ICD 10 code for Failed Back Syndrome, you know, in terms of that, and so it’s one of those things where I’m not saying that there’s never a time and a place for surgery case in point, you know, what I mean, sometimes are, but the problem too, is, is exactly that, once you open kind of Pandora’s box. And most ethical doctors recognize that back surgery on that level does not have a solid track record in terms of outcomes.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: About a third get better. Yeah, a third gets worse, and a third may have no change. And that’s what the neurologist disclosed. So really, since then, chiropractic care from Dr. Steph, which is kind of RAD when your business partner slash bestie can help you without an appointment. And, the laser has really kept me going. I mean, really, so you know, and not to interrupt you. But when she came to me with the idea of the Zerona, and it was from the same company, and, you know, understanding me you know, the background of like exercise physiology, and, you know, as a trainer, and yadda I thought, okay, if this does half of what you’re saying it does, yeah, I’m on board. Yeah, I’m in.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: And originally, I wanted her to have it in her gym. I was like, You know what, I don’t know if I have the capacity for this. I don’t know if I can integrate this into my practice. So what about having it in the gym, and then we started looking for buildings? And then we now have a beautiful 3000 square foot suite that has both the chiropractic office and the laser Med Spa.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: That’s amazing. We actually have nine lasers now. So we do like a lot of photo thermolite aesthetic services. And we grew. I mean, we both have, again, not to like giving away our age, but we both have been consumers of medical esthetics services for some time. So this was an interest and it worked.
Dr. Chad Woolner: in this business. Is it just the two of you like that? I mean, you have a team that works with you, but in terms of it, it’s your two owners, right? Yeah. Okay.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: But we have a satellite location that my sister Jennifer nurse Jennifer runs, she’s an RN, fantastic. She was one of the, you know, healthcare providers that the mass exodus after being burned, totally burnt out.
Dr. Chad Woolner: We heard COVID We heard the coolest story today from Dr. Chris Bromley and I don’t know if we mentioned this on the podcast.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, why not? I don’t think he would care. I don’t think he needs this actually needs to be.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I know we need to have him on the podcast again. So you know Chris Bromley right? He’s a podiatrist. He was fired in New York. So Originally, they told him, Hey, we want you to get the vaccine. And he’s like, I’ve already had it. I have the antibodies. No, thank you politely and they’re like, No. And they’re like, well, then you’re going to quit. And he says, No, I’m not going to quit. You guys are gonna have to fire me. And so they are in New York, and they fired him. And he’s like, and he said, he’s like, turning around to all the other doctors who are like sitting there silent. And he’s like, why are you guys silent about this? He says, You guys are being cowards. You know, this is not right. You know, and, so they wound up firing him, and then they sent him a letter.
Dr. Andrew Wells: it was a letter that they’re gonna send to like their 75,000 patients saying Dr. Bromley is no longer with us. He’s decided to leave the practice. And he said, No, that’s not what happened. You’re gonna put in here that I was fired because I didn’t get the vaccination. And they put that in the letter and sent it out to 75,000 patients. Not long after that, they sent him a letter in the mail saying, hey, they’re gonna give you a severance package and gave him some money. But in return, you’re gonna sign this 12-page document saying that you agree not to sue us down the road for firing and he goes, well I’m not gonna say the idea. Yeah, he goes, I’ve never even considered that I could sue you for that. But that’s exactly what I’m going to do waking a sleeping bag. I’m just gonna. He’s like I’m gonna wait till the time is right and then I’m going to sue you guys. And that’s what he’s going to do. And we’re like, hell yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So basically what happened and you guys know in New York, they’ve reversed everything now to where they have to hire back and they have to pay back all these people. So it’s rightfully so no doubt, right? Yeah, so anyways, it’s real.
Dr. Andrew Wells: How come we don’t force Zerona treatments. That’d be great, wouldn’t it? You are you’re gonna go in and get 10 sessions or you’re gonna pay.
Dr. Chad Woolner: 10 Zerona sessions or you’re fired?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: The ironic thing too is and again not to get into a whole thing but during the shutdowns I mean in Michigan gyms were shut down the longest and a fun fact and again, this is a this is one of those things where you’re like what in Michigan strip clubs open before gyms and right in my gym.
Dr. Chad Woolner: essential services Jamie come on.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: happens to be in a strip mall next to a McDonald’s and my whole team came in and we did it work BS and we painted and refinished floors and all that but to watch this incessant, like, endless line through the McDonald’s drive-thru as we’re, you know.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I’m envisioning I’m envisioning like those you know, those like trash picker-upper thingies with the you know, the little gripper hands that are like, you know, three feet long or whatever, that’s at the strip clubs. They were social distancing with those with their dollar bras that they were.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: We call those granny grabbers.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: No, we’re going off-road here.
Dr. Chad Woolner: This is off the rails is not gonna like this
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Real talk, right?
Dr. Chad Woolner: So yeah, anyways, that is a little wild, though. You know, that is a little wild to think
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Parodies are complete Oh, man messed up.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, we were at a mastermind meeting in Florida? Where was that one with Ian?
Dr. Andrew Wells: No, that was in Park City. Oh, that was in Park City.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. What’s his name? He was the gym owner in New Jersey that refused to shut down. And stood his ground and the stories he shared were believable, and unreal. I mean, what he went through and what he wound up like having to sleep at the gym because otherwise, they were going to board it up.
Dr. Andrew Wells: They let her lock his door. So he removed the doors. And so he’s like, No, I don’t have any doors. I’m gonna have to sleep there. So no one robs the place at night. And he did that for I think a long period of time. And he kept operating.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, the thing I’ve said throughout all of this is history is going to be so favorable to people like him, and so not on the side of the tyrants. I mean, it really.
Dr. Andrew Wells: I think, too, and we’re like, why are we talking about all this? And I think the reason we’re talking about some of this stuff is when we had you on our first podcast episode, Chad and I were a little bit blown away by how you’re using lasers, lasers in a really innovative way. We had no idea, like, you were laughing actually, before the episode. Like we didn’t realize you’d use lasers for all these different things. And then here comes Jamie Thayer and like, oh, yeah, by the way, we use it for tattoos.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: 48 hours.
Dr. Andrew Wells: What the heck like what else can you do with lasers? So yeah, so your podcast episodes of the previous one and this one? Yeah, we do go off-road a little bit, but that’s okay. Sounds good.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Sorry. That’s, that’s honestly, these are the episodes that I really enjoy. Because you just get to explore a little bit more and that’s why I look forward to having recurring guests because we get to kind of dive deeper into some of it.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. And it just goes back to you know, why is this relevant to your inner Erchonia podcast is we’re talking about, at the end of the day, we’re talking about light. Yeah, right, like light therapy, what can you do with light therapy? Why is it good for the body? What are the different applications for it? As we kind of went down the rabbit hole of conventional healthcare and COVID. And that whole, you know, crazy issue. I think most healthcare providers got so sidetracked. I mean, we’re, I don’t think we actually were going off-road, if you look at conventional medicine, they went way off-road with that. And the cool thing is, I think, now that we’re seeing, you know, the benefit of this is it kind of snaps back, and we’re rebounding here, as people are actually looking for offices like yours and clinics like yours, and forward-thinking providers that are doing things in a unique way to build health and build the immune system and, and solve back pain in a way that doesn’t require surgery. And now, you know, we talked about tattoo removal or the healing of tattoos and your unique.
Dr. Chad Woolner: We had a meeting yesterday, briefly with another doc that we’ve worked with. And one of the concepts that just kind of, we stumbled into in this conversation with him was the past two years, what we’ve seen is have created a massive leadership vacuum. And so clinics and individuals and businesses who stood for something, and when I say stood for something, I don’t mean, because because there’s like a spectrum, right? There are those people who were like, complicit with insanity, which is like, not good. And then you have people who were just kind of silent with the complicit or you know, that were silent with the insanity. And then you had kind of the middle ground where there were people who were like, This is not right. And if they had the opportunity to stand for what was right, they stood for what was right. And then you have people who are leading and proactively in their communities doing things like you guys, and then you have people who are like, just ready to put their necks on the line. And I have all the respect for like, Chris Bromley.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Totally. I’ll be fired. Yeah, scary.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: totally. The doors office.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Wow. Yeah. And so and so my questions slash comments. I don’t know if this is gonna be a question or a comment. I kind of sort of did you see, have you seen over the past two years? A, an increase in patient retention, patient loyalty, patient numbers, just in general and client-patient slash client, right? People, as a result of you guys not wavering and kind of sticking with kind of you guys kind of maintained a certain sense of stability in the community and leadership? Do you agree with that?
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Definitely. I actually stayed open during COVID. And we had those very specific rules like you can only see emergency clients, and this is what stipulates an emergency. And I covered for two other chiropractors who didn’t want to stay open during that time. And, you know, now I’m, like, not accepting new patients. And I mean, I think that word of mouth is really big in our community.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And how if you don’t mind me asking, I don’t I hope I don’t cause any problems. However, the doctors who closed down okay? are they struggling?
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: One of them is struggling. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And I don’t have any offense whatsoever, But again, that kind of illustrates my point that I think now people more than ever, having come out of that are looking for leaders, true leaders more than ever before. And again, no offense whatsoever. But Doctors who closed, you missed a really incredible opportunity to be that leader that not only people want, but they need people again.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Yes you’re like you were a beacon during this time.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: And, I had the amazing opportunity to spend a little more time with people because I was the only one in the office. Yeah, and I didn’t have my full wellness schedule, which is really packed. So I sort of had this like a little bit more leisurely time. And, you know, that’s when that like emotional and physical component is so tightened together, you know, so people are, you know, they’re literally crying on your shoulder, they are literally, you know, sort of sharing things that maybe they wouldn’t have in my shorter, like sort of more natural wellness visits.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Well, and now you have so many patients that we need a laser to clone you. Yeah, essentially. Yes. And you know, as far as the Med Spa side of it, during the closures, just to keep myself busy, I’m a little bit hyperactive. So I would, you know, I can only file so much for Doctor stuff and come in and clean the office and do things like that, but I leveled up and doubled down on training. So additional licensing that I would not have thought I had time to take out of my life and go, you know, to Arizona. That’s where I went for this aesthetic training, additional aesthetic training, but I went a month at a time, there’s no way I could have done that in a normal circumstance. So it’s like making lemonade. You know.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s super inspiring for people to hear that right? Because you could have totally taken the approach of like, you know, like the fetal position in the corner of the thumb in the mouth, you know, like, which is totally understandable.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: You know, disclosure, the first two weeks of the shutdowns I bought an air fryer and started deep frying Oreos with the air fryer. With the intention of it being so healthy, I can make those crispy Brussels sprouts. No, I really figured out how to deep-fry Oreos.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Not deep fry air fryer.
Dr. Andrew Wells: You need to eat while you’re watching the prices. Right?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Right, I need to find out who was the dad on Maury and all that so. So really the first two weeks within it was like, Okay, we need to get a grip here and be productive and figure out what is within our control. Yeah. And that’s how we proceeded.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: I mean, this is the epitome of Jamie. I mean, there’s nothing that’s gonna get her down. Nothing. Like no thing on this earth. She’s gonna make a way she’s gonna be creative. I mean, yeah, she’s an innovator. Nothing will stop her. Like, that’s incredible.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So speaking of innovation, what are some cool new things? Are there some cool new things with the lasers that you’re using? Like, because for a recap, for those listening? In the previous episode, Andrew kind of mentioned it briefly. But one of the cool things that Jamie had brought up with us is that they had found this kind of really stumbled across. That fair way to say it stumbled across this really cool niche of helping people who had gotten tattoos to help with the post-tattoo pain and or healing. Absolutely something other any other new niches that you’ve discovered innovations or other cool stories.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: I mean, we’ve also treated the FX 635. People’s incisions from having, you know, plant we see a lot of people who have had plastic surgery as well, whether it’s breast augmentation, you know, nose jobs, things like that, which they do tell us about because we’re a med spa, you know, I see them on the Med Spa side. So we’ve you know, of course, and just like any surgery incision, that’s not a new way to treat, but I feel like people are finding that they feel safe disclosing that, which plastic surgery is still kind of like the dirty little secret that you know, I mean, you see, there’s hotels next to plastic surgery centers that people just go into hiding even after. And so it’s that aspect too. But you know, we’re just continuing to build on those partnerships we have. And that’s one little facet because we do tattoo removal, as well with lasers, not these lasers, but we do tattoo removal. So we have these partnerships with tattoo shops. So we already know, and it’s easy to establish that you introduce yourself. But this is and I was speaking with someone yesterday, another doc, and elsewhere that, you know, the way we really built this up is we went in. We introduced ourselves, we gave them a little spiel on what the laser does. And we invited them in to get a free session. Because tattoo artists seem to be getting tattooed. All the time. Yeah, so we invited them and no strings attached came in, they were amazed because immediately the pain was relieved. And I know you guys don’t have tattoos, but maybe you should run a little experiment. Because if you hate it, come to Michigan, I’ll remove it. But really, you know, just see it to believe it right? Because this is a different dichotomy of thinking of care solutions. And, you know, just to experience it firsthand. So we found immediate pain relief and well within 48 hours, the tattoo was 90% healed. That’s amazing. So for them, at least tattoo artists benefit them and explain it and demonstrate how it benefits them. And the ways are, you know, attached to you typically takes about two weeks to heal and during that time it can be infected. It can be scratched up, picked up, or poked at people can totally destroy their tattoo. Okay, so on the flip side, someone’s tattoo is almost completely healed within that 48-hour time with 120-minute pain protocol effects. And on the other side, too, is what if someone has a large piece they’re working on and this tattoo artist is saying okay, I’ll see you in six months. I’ll see you now here and there and these people are never coming back because it was a good idea. They had the money right then but then they did an all-day set which now our area is about $1,500, they might need two more that’s booked way out. You know, it’s like one of those things where it’s like, Oh, I’ll get to it eventually, five years later, they’re like, Oh, I still haven’t gotten this tattoo fixed or finished. So these artists can do a faster turnaround. So when that person is motivated and ready, they can book them a week apart and finish this larger piece. So it’s a higher ROI for the tattoo artists too, you know, since so, but it’s about establishing, here’s how it’s going to benefit you and come in and do it for free. I believe in it so much that they can come in for free.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What percentage would you say are coming in for a post? Or post-surgery versus tattoo?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: More tattoos?
Dr. Chad Woolner: More tattoos, significantly more people?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: I mean, 28% of the population in the United States has at least one tattoo?
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think to maybe your state I’m cuz I’m thinking the minute youth started saying plastic surgery, and it’s the hidden thing. I don’t know if I’m right or not. I have in my head the opinion of which state per capita has the most plastic surgery. Again, I know I was just gonna say Michigan does not strike me as capital. Do you know?
Dr. Andrew Wells: We’re in Florida right now. It’s either Florida or California. Or maybe per capita.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Like Arizona to Scottsdale is?
Dr. Chad Woolner: I’m gonna say, I think it’s Utah. Really? Oh, I think it is, well, because Andrew has been trying to get Amber and I to watch what we’ve watched, like, I think the first two or three episodes of The Real Housewives of Salt Lake. Oh, yeah.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Human. brain cancer.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, that’s right. My wife and I love that show.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I know he’s, well, he’s always telling me. So we’re members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And so he’s always informing me about new things. He’s learning about our church, through the Real Housewives of Salt Lake, which is like, exactly where you want people to learn about.
Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s where I get all my relevant information. Everything. So anything on Bravo, bravo is pretty much real.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So yeah. Anyways, sorry, again, we’re going down this rabbit hole. But the point is I was the reason why I’m thinking this is because, you know, cosmetic surgery numbers, where are they going to be? I would have to imagine Florida, California, Arizona, and Utah, are probably going to be really prime opportunities for dogs who could position themselves in that way, in that unique way.
Dr. Andrew Wells: You know, when I think of med spas, I don’t think of the UP at all. And you guys are in the Upper Peninsula. And I find it funny too, that most people don’t know that there is an upper peninsula of Michigan. Truly, they don’t know that, right? And so maybe, you guys can talk to me because I know that Doctors will say, I know you guys do well with your clinic and have done a really good job from a financial standpoint in building your clinic, which is fantastic. And I want you to talk about that. And I think sometimes Docs will naively think well, okay, that’s because there’s nobody else in the UP that does anything like that. And it’s not true.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: right? In our town. We have three other med spas. Yeah. So with Zerona, and Emerald, what we have at our clinics, we’re competing with UL therapy, and two places with CoolSculpting.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The thing that you’ll find in meeting Jamie, and this is my first time actually in-person meeting Stephanie. So I’m assuming the company you keep there’s probably going to be some overlap and similarity there. But the one thing you will notice, that’s obvious, is that success leaves clues, they say, right? And so when you meet Stephanie, it’s very obvious. She’s got a very energetic personality. And I mean that in the best way possible. And it’s very obvious, she’s a go-getter like she’s the type where she’s a very determined person. And I would assume that has served you very well, in terms of your success that you’re very much You strike me and we’re and we’re us as the type of person where when you set your mind to something like okay, I’m going to do this thing. And like, come hell or high water, you’re going to do that thing. You know what I mean?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Dr.Steph and I both have a twin personality like that. Yeah. So watch. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And so that’s part of it.
Dr. Andrew Wells: And maybe this is the point is yes. Alright. Well, I just got my Erchonia laser, and everybody surely knows how great Erchonia lasers are. So I bought the thing now everybody should start flocking into our clinic and start getting these amazing therapies. But maybe you guys can talk about how you’re really promoting, not just laser therapy, but just promoting your clinic and maybe some of the crossover between the med spa and the chiropractic part and how you’re really making that work.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Well, Jamie is really a salesperson. I’m not so great at sales. You I’m sort of a little bit more of an academic and maybe more of a healer and maybe not as bold or confident as Jamie is. That’s a good thing. Sure. It’s a good thing. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses. But, you know, Jamie has really developed systems. She, as I mean, most people probably not, she’s like a social media Maven. I mean, we could all learn from her. But she’s really perfected the systems perfected consultations and perfected closing the sale. And she’s really developed things that I like, never could have. Absolutely never could have.
Dr. Andrew Wells: And on that subject, I think that’s important to have in your clinic. But would you say it’s more of a system, you’re a product of systems are more a product of just the fact that Jamie can sell stuff. Or is it a combination of both.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier: systems that she has created,
Dr. Andrew Wells: I think more doc Stephanie is like you like I’m a healer, I’m an academic, I’m a doctor, I’m a chiropractor, I’m not a salesperson.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What we’re trying to do here is dissect this for the value and benefit of the doctors, because it’s really easy to get caught up in the trap of thinking, Oh, they’re amazing, they can do it. That’s not me, you know, and so and then all of a sudden create this massive discrepancy, because what we’re trying to do, and hopefully, this isn’t like too tall of an order for this podcast, in terms of we’re trying to do everything for everyone. But we’re trying to help practitioners who are listening to this podcast understand and dissect the kind of secrets that, if you will, are the steps to success. From a business not just a clinical standpoint, obviously, clinical outcomes, but from a business standpoint as well. Because ultimately, what that means is, they’re going to be able to help more people, right? You’re not You’re not doing your community any favors by investing in an intercolonial laser, and then letting it just sit and collect dust, which I’m confident unfortunately does happen for some docs because they know exactly what interested them I naively assume. But I got this thing. It’s amazing. Listen, The Laser Light Show says it’s amazing. So, therefore, we should see, you know, if you buy it, they will come. Then it’s the house. Yes. And so and so the whole idea that Andrew was kind of honing in on was Not to disparage Jamie or Stephanie in any way, shape, or form. But it’s not that you’re just this gifted, unique person, although you both are gifted and unique. It’s the systems that were developed, it’s the men, it’s the mindset of determining that I am going to succeed with this thing. Therefore, I am going to take steps, you know, and in terms of the steps, nothing out of the ordinary in terms of what other doctors aren’t capable of doing. Any doctor is capable of doing this. It’s just a matter of whether they will do it. Will they make the effort? Because the lasers don’t sell themselves? I mean, they kind of do. Actually, when you get people in, they kind of do but you’ve got to take some steps you have to do.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: There’s an intention there. So yeah. Okay, so on that. So Erchonia approached me about developing this private Facebook page called Zerona? Glow your business? And it’s great, it’s a community where we can share ideas, and it’s all focused around the roads they’re on and well, and it’s interchangeable with emeralds. Okay.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, but the aesthetic leaves your side, right?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Okay, perfect. And so on. There also, I’ve been sharing some marketing plays, we’ve been doing some, even images that can be used verbatim what we put in a post because here’s the thing, you know, we’ve we do have systems in place, we have methods and just utilizing, like sales psychology, I think about this when we develop strategies. This is something that someone even applies when they are thinking about their marketing strategy, we all want three things in life, and every human wants, it can be broken down into three things to be important. So that’s where your validation comes in. If you know, I see you as a human, you are important, okay? So we want to be and feel important. We want to feel better, we want to have health, we want to have vitality, energy, we want to be able to, you know, be thriving, and I don’t care what anyone says you want to look better. Sure. So when I put out our marketing and campaigns, I’m always trying to think, Okay, how is this hitting on either one of those aspects and conveying that or all and, you know, that also is the way we train our team. That is the way our office is, you know, from what I received when I walked into Dr. Steffes. Office 12 years ago, I was seen, I was important, and she cared about how it was feeling, you know? And so when you think back like things that you’re even loyal to brands, your loyalty gives you One of those three things, or if you can provide all three, that is money. And I don’t mean literal, just that that is on point that is what you want. That’s how you have fans for life. That’s how you have patients, clients, and friends for life, you see someone you care about their health, and you know, they want to look good. You know, and I don’t mean like, oh, you know, the job and tummy tuck and all this stuff. It’s like, No, you want to feel like you’re accepted. And our looks are part of that will.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And so Docs who are listening to this might think, Okay, that’s all good and fine. I agree with that. But how do you like it? How do you objectively like to systemize? That whole process, like how do you quote, unquote, systemize, and care? And I’ll just give one example of the fact that you know, the fact that when you go out and meet with, let’s just say tattoo artists and tattoo shops, right, you’re applying what you’re just saying, what you just said there, in a very simple and easy way, meaning. One approach might be, Hey, my name is Dr. Chad Woolner, we have this amazing laser, it’s so cool. You guys should send people to us. Right? That’s one way of doing it. And that may or may not land versus your approach is, hey, we think tattoo artists are incredible. We love the work that you guys are doing. We have this amazing laser, we’d love to let you try it for free. If it works for you, and you find that it’s amazing. We just asked you to send people to us and partner with you.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, so it’s far more of a that literally happened in my town, by the way, a doctor bought a laser. It wasn’t an Ericone laser. And I know a doctor, he’s a nice guy, but he sent out a message to all the chiropractors and sent people to me, I just bought this new laser. And he said it was $70,000. And it’s really cool. You should send people to us. That’s exactly why I’m like a poor guy. And but it wasn’t like your way is so much more brilliant is like hey, if you know, he could have said like, hey, chiropractors, there’s a good chance that you may have shoulder pain, you may have back pain, you’re treating a lot of patients you have neck pain, how would you like to come in? And we’ll do free sessions on you because we care about the community instead of his initial approach was, well, that’s kind of a douchey thing. Like why would I? Why would I ever do that? Have my own patients, you can get your own patients, or oh my gosh, this guy actually has some new technology. And he’s actually caring about other chiropractors in the community which would have gone over really well. And you could have built a community that way. How many?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Just out of curiosity, because I want to kind of prove this point. How many tattoo artists have taken you up on that offer to come in and try the laser for free?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Let’s see. So I’m thinking
Dr. Chad Woolner: you’re having a difficult time quantifying it because there’s a lot. That’s my point, right?
Dr. Andrew Wells: There’s a lot who would say no to that, right?
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s exactly right. You know, there’s a really great book written by those who want to learn good marketing stuff. Alex or MOSI? Have you heard of this book? 100 million dollar offers is the name of the book, I haven’t really good, but you would love it anyway. But the whole idea from we’re talking marketing here is that, okay, we’re gonna dive deep into marketing. The best type of offer is one that when you position it, the individual you are offering to would have to say, in their mind, on some level, I would have to be stupid not to take advantage of this offer. Right? And that’s what you did there in talking to a tattoo artist, you know, in that sense, and the offer that you made to them, no strings attached. Just come in and try it for yourself. See if this is effective, if they’re getting tattoos regularly, they would be stupid not to do what’s the worst that can happen for nothing, you know what I mean? I wasted 30 minutes of my day to come over to this gal’s office and try this thing. You know, and so yeah, it’s the reason we’re talking about this, again, kind of bringing this back on so that Doc’s understand those who are listening, you’re talking about principles and ideas. But they’re not just these fluffy theoretical ideas, you put them into implementable systems and actionable steps that you’ve taken. But the key, Docs need to understand is you’re taking action, you’re it requires a little bit of work a little bit.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: And here’s the thing, too, when you have a team, you don’t always have to be the cook in the kitchen, but you have to take action, there has to be movement there has to it just doesn’t happen. I’ve used this analogy before: you could have a loaded ATM machine that requires no pin and it stays full if no one knows it’s there. Yeah, you know, or how it benefits them. And so here’s another thing too, and you know, just dealing with you know, when you hear people seeing people earn the right to present your solution. Then yeah, don’t just puke it on people for the lack of More eloquently I’ve seen it earn the right. So for example, you know for me and this is in the med spas side of what we’re doing, but for me, yes, I’m very busy my schedule for treatments books out close to two months, wow, I’m very busy but I have certain time allocated to consultations, I still do a full hour in-person consultation. Because it often takes that long to really, truly have a real conversation with someone. And people might think, Oh, no way. gotta dig an hour. Okay, but what if I told you that this could be a patient or client that could be worth 10s? or 1000s of dollars in the lifetime of the relationship? Yeah, an hour’s worth it. And we have those people and, you know, someone comes in and they make an appointment thinking they need XYZ, and they really don’t need ABC, you know, but you took the time to hear them and say, Actually, this is what you thought you needed. But this is really truly, you know, what would be your solution. And because you took the time to hear them even in an hour, I mean, it’s not that much time to actually validate someone and hear them in that time, then have, you know, they trust you to the point where they believe you that okay, this does sound like this could be my solution. And again, whether we’re talking skin tightening, or Zerona emeralds, or nutritional support, I mean all that, you know, it doesn’t matter. It honestly doesn’t matter what you’re doing or selling or anything, if you take the time to really just hear someone and just say, Okay, well, I have the solution. And again, remember a lot of times when they’re hearing you, especially when I’m speaking on Emerald and Zerona. And you know, even FX treatments, they’re thinking, well, this really worked for me. And can I afford it? So they may even be half hearing you because they’re stressing, you know, I mean, we’re in and we’re in a society that, you know, stresses over money. I mean, it’s a rat race, right? I mean, money issues are probably one of the number one causes of anxiety doesn’t matter how much you have or don’t have, right? So they’re thinking that and, you know, just reassuring and taking that time with them. Because again, otherwise, it’s like trying to get married on the first day, kiddo,
Dr. Chad Woolner: I want to focus on one kind of element of what you talked about for docs because I think some might get really hung up on this hour-long consultation idea. Don’t get hung up on the time for just a minute, step back and say it’s whether it’s an hour or not an hour to set that aside, just get rid of that specific timeframe. I can’t remember who said this, but the minute you said that it was like thinking in the back of my mind, I read somewhere recently, so I’m sorry, to whoever it was that posted this really brilliant insight. But they said in business, more business owners need to engage in things that are not scalable. And so often, and especially Andrew and I were constantly talking about scalable scale this and scale this and scale this and do things and automate this and, and delegate this and do this. And those things are definitely important, right systemization and all those different things, but never lose sight of the important heavy lifting that is done through things that aren’t scalable. And what I mean by that is these very intimate, very meaningful, very personal conversations that take place through again, whether it’s an hour, full 60 minutes, or maybe it’s just a very, very focused 10 minutes, you know what I mean? Have one on me and you just one on one, because I have those conversations with patients, I do consults with patients, and they’re typically pretty quick in terms of the time, but I make sure to be fully present with them when I’m there with them so that they know like, I’m not looking elsewhere. I’m literally looking at you giving me 100% of me, I’m not my mind is not elsewhere. I am truly with you. And I’m making sure that my body language shows that by restating the questions that I asked you and the answers that I give you that I’m actively listening, not just hearing. And so, and again, those are things that are not scalable things and yet, those really, or you know, in terms of meeting going out into the community, that’s not typically I mean, you theoretically could delegate that out to other people. But I’m confident that you move the needle a lot further when it’s you being the one going and doing that, you know what I mean? So.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: And human contact is becoming more and more scarce. And yeah, because even you know, Zoom meetings for work, FaceTime, you know, with your kid’s emails, I mean, out So, I mean, so many people, you have no idea how few people they interact with in a day in person. I don’t want to go through the cash register anymore. I pick up my groceries. I, you know, it’s like DoorDash, my food. And I mean that that is like, I mean compounding loneliness. And, you know, and really, and this is something too, you know, I’ve, I share a lot of my little tidbits of information and secrets and things on that glow, or Zerona glow your business page and I’ve been working on inductor stuff knows this, but I’ve been working on a book for a while as well. Not that it’s like I have all this info to bestow.
Dr. Chad Woolner: But is this a business book? It is a cool title for it.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: It’s musings and ramblings of a serial entrepreneur.
Dr. Chad Woolner: musings and ramblings of a series of rambling, that’s amazing.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: So and it’s about for one, believing in yourself and just investing in your own dreams enough to do what it takes to make it happen, which, you know, other people benefit from in this case, you know, so it’s really like I said, it’s not like I have some magic formula, but it’s taking the time and being thoughtful and methodical, but, and as I said, Erchonia reached out to me, because, you know, this is some things that you don’t have to reinvent the wheel, go to the page and steal stuff from me because I put it out there for you too. I even make up posts that are verbatim you can copy and paste.
Dr. Chad Woolner: We just FYI, for those listening, we’ve used a lot of what Jamie has given in that group, in our business. And it’s been very helpful. A lot of very straightforward, simple, yet very profoundly awesome resources. So yeah, I would echo Yeah, join her group, if for those who are listening, who are either thinking about getting into this Arona, or Emerald, or currently do.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Our Instagram and Facebook, glow sculpting spa, I mean, I post a lot. And again, it’s not like we have this secret sauce, you know, and no, it’s just there’s different ways of doing things. As the world is changing, and there is this looming loneliness that so many are experiencing, human connection and contact are so much more important. So that’s where I feel our in-person consultations are huge, and to be honest with you, and not to be braggadocious, or anything, our closing rate is so good that I remember the ones that I don’t close. And then I follow up. You know, because there’s always going to be some time or some you know, and again, it’s not even about being this high pressure, you know.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s so funny because you know, with Andrew and I, we have a business where we consult and work with practitioners, and one of the most frequently asked questions amongst ourselves and explored questions. And it’s a never-ending question, right? Because we’re always seeking more insight, what is the distinction between the docs who are successful and the docs who are not successful? That’s like the common thread that we’re always trying to pull on. Always trying to pull on? And, what we tend to find is the same types of answers that are somewhat unsettling because of the simplicity of the answer as to what it is at face value. People are like, dude, okay, whatever. But like, what we mean by that is like, yeah, it’s obvious when in talking with you, you guys are successful. Because I’m ready for this, like a surprise. It’s because you genuinely care. Like you, it exudes in terms of, you have a very clear sense of purpose and mission with what you’re doing. It’s not really, truly isn’t just about the money. If you’re just about the money, you may make it, and there are some who do that, you know, like they make tons of money. Fantastic, wonderful. Great that there is no problem there. But I’m finding we’re finding, correct me if I’m wrong, Andrew, but the docs who really have success long term, it there’s something intrinsically there with them, where they feel deeply connected to the sense of passion, purpose, and mission, that what they’re doing is deeper than just a transaction, you know, that it’s so much more than that. And that’s what continues to drive and fuel the steps. What were you gonna say? You’re gonna say some?
Dr. Andrew Wells: No, yeah, yes, I would agree. 100%. And it’s, I think all docs will say, Yeah, I care. I care, too. I’m a part of that group. But do you really think about the people who didn’t close? Right? Not because you didn’t collect the $3,000 whenever it was, like the care plan, but because they actually had a problem and you weren’t able to? Either help?
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Yeah. Did we miss a solution? Yeah.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. to kind of wrap this up. We started off with how you guys met was, you know, yeah, Jamie wasn’t a patient right? That wasn’t like a pain. impatient like, all right, I got my kind of my case value out of that patient, which sometimes we think of it’s No, it wasn’t appropriate patient but you still followed up and sent magazines to.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The House did she pay you for the get well cards and all the cupcakes and all that stuff she paid for that she owes you need to collect on that?
Dr. Andrew Wells: When you scratch the surface of that a little bit, and I think if people were to meet you, Jamie, they would see like, Oh, this is a tenacious entrepreneur, which you are and all that stuff. But if you scratch the surface a little bit, there’s a meaning behind that. And, that’s yeah, the common thread we’re talking about. As there’s some there’s something more substantial there. And if you can tap into that, and sometimes it takes Doc’s a while to figure that out, it can be years before they figure out in practice what that really is, but oftentimes people will find it too and if you lean into that, then you have a lot of motivation to work through situations like COVID or to work through like what do we do?
Dr. Chad Woolner: And that’s what you’ll find. Again, we talked with Steve Shanks in an interview earlier. And that’s the thing that you’ll find I think that’s what gravitated I’m guessing to a large extent, what gravitated you to both of you Dr. Stephanie and Jamie to Erchonia is this very strong sense of mission and purpose that they have. We were telling Steve, there’s a much cheaper, faster, easier way to make money in the light and laser space. You could totally know what I mean. Just cut corners and, you know, sell subpar and I shouldn’t even say subpar like you’re but I mean, you just do the research. Yeah, just skip the research. You know, it’s already been done. That’s fine to skip the research reservation.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Steve has actually been to our office animal so we were able to have some on one time with him. And you know, he is still excited over what he’s doing. Yes. And passion. And that’s what keeps you, it’s almost burnout-proof. And yeah, there are times when you’re like, I need a vacation or I need a day off. That’s different from feeling dread of what you’re doing every day. And people can feel that. Oh, totally. Oh, yeah. So I feel like you know, those of us who truly get to do something we’re passionate about were the lucky ones in life that that truly is the secret to a happy life.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No Passion and Purpose. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Dr. Stephanie, and Jamie, this has been a ton of fun. Super fun. We appreciate you guys taking the time to be here with us on this episode. We’ve talked about a lot. It’s been fantastic.
Dr. Jamie Thayer: Thank you so much. Both of you and Dr. Steph, my amazing partner and bestie. And yeah, it’s great.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You guys have a really incredible dynamic. It’s very obvious being with you and talking with you as to why you guys have been so successful and why you will continue. And for me what’s inspiring about that is knowing that success is not just a monetary figure, but there are a lot of men and women out there who are being changed to are really having their lives impacted families impacted generations impacted as grandiose as that might sound. That’s what’s happening. And that’s what’s so exciting and cool and we appreciate all that you guys are doing so absolutely incredible. So yeah. Everybody listening, we hope that this has been really valuable for you. We hope that you’ve had a lot of fun on this episode with us and we’re looking forward to lots more. Thanks for listening, and we’ll chat with you guys on the next episode. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show, be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as the Erchonia e-community where you can access free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.
Dr. Stephanie Wautier is a chiropractor and the co-owner of Glow Sculpting Spa. She runs her own clinic, Watch Your Wellness Chiropractic and Massage, offering a range of chiropractic and massage therapies. Her background is deeply rooted in chiropractic care, with a focus on integrating technology like laser therapy into traditional treatments.
Jamie Thayer is an exercise physiologist, medical laser specialist, and serial entrepreneur with a passion for health and wellness. She is the co-owner of Glow Sculpting Spa and owns an Anytime Fitness franchise. Jamie has extensive experience in personal training, and medical wellness, and is a recognized social media influencer and marketing expert.
Episode 32 of The Laser Light Show, hosted by Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells, featured guests Dr. Stephanie Wautier and Jamie Thayer. This episode delved into the power of laser therapy, their individual journeys in healthcare and wellness, and the story behind their successful partnership in Glow Sculpting Spa. They discussed the impact of laser therapy in medical treatments, their business model, marketing strategies, and the importance of personal connections in healthcare.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here, alongside Dr. Andrew Wells. In today’s episode of The Laser Light Show, we’re thrilled to be interviewing Dr. Natalie Geary, who joins us all the way from the UK. So, let’s dive in.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Alright, welcome to the show, everyone, and a huge welcome all the way from the UK, Dr. Natalie Geary. Thank you so much for being here with us.
Dr. Natalie Geary: Oh, thank you for inviting me. This is a big honor, and I’m very excited.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So tell us a little bit about yourself. This is what’s kind of fun about these podcasts; we sometimes get chatting before the podcast starts, capturing some of the magic of the initial introduction. This episode is one of those instances where we briefly met, talked for about 30 seconds, and shook hands in the hall. So, I don’t know anything about you yet. We’re going to capture that initial introduction now. Tell us who you are and a little bit about yourself.
Dr. Natalie Geary: So, I’m a doctor from the UK. Initially, my career plan was to join the NHS, our National Health Service. However, about two years in, I realized the NHS wasn’t the right fit for me. It was actually on my mother’s suggestion—though she had her own reasons—that I considered becoming a cosmetic doctor. And that’s exactly what I did. For the past 15 years, I’ve specialized in Botox, fillers, and other injectables, while also growing a business around it. More recently, I’ve felt a strong desire to expand my professional focus towards health and wellness, an area I’m genuinely passionate about. I was always searching for a way to evolve into the doctor I aspired to be. That search led me to the world of Erchonia and laser treatments.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Fantastic. Just curious, what about the NHS? Did you not enjoy pursuing your career?
Dr. Natalie Geary: Well, Dr. Andrew, that’s a whole other podcast. But I think briefly, the culture didn’t suit me. It wasn’t very nurturing, and it probably still isn’t. I found it quite bullying, and I just felt like a fish out of water. I knew I needed something more and probably more support. I didn’t feel like there was any, so it just didn’t bode well for me. There are parts of the NHS that are amazing, so I’m not criticizing our amazing NHS. But trying to be a cog in that enormous machine just didn’t sit well with me. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So, if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re looking for a bit more autonomy and freedom to do things your way. Is that correct? Would that be fair to say? Yeah,
Dr. Natalie Geary: I think it’s obvious that I’ve embarked on the entrepreneur’s journey, which isn’t for everyone, but it suits me. Fundamentally, I could see aspects of the NHS that troubled me greatly—there’s a lot of inefficiency and waste, which is common in any large corporation. That bothered me deeply. It reached a point where I realized I just couldn’t work in that environment.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it’s got to be somewhat of a double-edged sword. It’s scary in a situation where you’re leaping out into the private sector, especially when you’ve got this massive kind of net or umbrella if you will, that you’re not exactly competing against because it’s a completely different realm. Yet, I would assume some people might perceive it as, “How can you compete with free healthcare?” Right? You know, in terms of your jumping off, and you’re going to have people pay you cash when they could rely on the NHS. But I know well enough that you’re offering something completely different, something that more than likely isn’t offered under the NHS umbrella, correct? Yeah
Dr. Natalie Geary: That’s absolutely true. You know, like most government provisions and health systems, it’s underfunded. Yeah, so the idea that anybody was going to get their Botox and fillers through the NHS was pretty slim; it wasn’t competing in that sense. But trying to attract really good talent has been difficult because so many doctors are very committed to the NHS. It’s a very stable employment environment, you know, you do have a job for life. It’s one of the few places where you probably still have a job for life. And there’s a lot of security that comes with that. So, interestingly, the NHS has made trying to recruit doctors out of it really expensive because they now know they can do locum work and night shifts, and earn a really good amount of money. Then trying to get them to come into something like a more commercial medical environment where you have to work to get your patients and retain them and do all of those things… Yeah, it has made it quite tricky at times to really encourage the talent out. Not that I would encourage talent out of the NHS, but trying to get doctors to come to work for you is not always easy.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Much of this boils down to self-awareness and whether you’re the entrepreneurial type. Some people are, and some aren’t. Those who aren’t may gravitate toward wanting or needing a secure paycheck. That’s where they’re likely to head. However, by clearly planting your flag and stating, ‘This is what I’m going to do,’ positively, you’ll attract the right type of people. It might be a bit of a challenge, I’d guess, but worth it because the individuals are drawn to your team and the cause will be the right fit. They’ll identify with the desire or need for more adventure and opportunity, rather than just a paycheck. No offense to those who seek the security of a paycheck—I understand that people have different needs and motivations. What you’re describing sounds similar to experiences we’ve had. You’re either more risk-tolerant, entrepreneurial, and visionary, or you’re someone who needs security and stability.
Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah, in fact, there’s a model in the UK where, as you become more established, you can have your NHS practice. Especially as a consultant, you have the opportunity to explore other areas of medicine that might be of great interest to you. So, many GPs, anesthetists, and professionals from various medical fields are moving into cosmetic medicine, knowing they have the stability of working three to four days a week within the NHS.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So, what lasers are you using right now? And what purposes are they serving for you?
Dr. Natalie Geary: I began my laser journey with the Emeraude, primarily because my extensive background in athletics made a fat loss laser an excellent addition to my clinic. We had previously explored body sculpting with CoolSculpting and achieved great results. The arrival of the Emerald was exciting; its approach is completely different from CoolSculpting, offering me a new avenue to assist my patients in focusing on their long-term health and wellness.
So, starting with the Emeraude, I quickly grew fond of the lasers, especially the EV RLS, which are handheld devices. These were easily integrated into our treatments with the Emeraude. Beyond the technical aspects, there’s a personal motivation driving many of us in the medical field. We all know someone struggling with health issues. The VRL could potentially aid my daughter, who has ADHD, and my father, who suffers from industrial asthma. My mother, dealing with tremors, also comes to mind. Therefore, we expanded our toolkit to include the EV RLS.
Following this, we acquired the effects laser, aimed specifically at alleviating pain. This expansion in our services not only enhances our ability to treat physical conditions but also supports our commitment to improving the overall well-being of our patients and their families.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, so you mentioned, Dr. Geary, that you initially delved into aesthetics, and now you’re more interested in the health and wellness space. I suppose one could argue that aesthetics is part of that. But what exactly is your interest in health? Where does it stem from, and what types of conditions are you aiming to address with your patients?
Dr. Natalie Geary: So, I think again, I’m just being totally honest, my journey into health really was because probably I was perimenopause or not sleeping very well. felt overwhelmed, pretty stressed and I felt surely there’s got to be something else out there for me. And I think I’ve been doing esthetics, you know, literally just injectables for long enough to know, really good. I do a great job for people, but I don’t feel stretched anymore. And then I started looking into functional medicine. And I came to America for several conferences, and it was a real life changer for me. Because initially, I was going just for me, I thought, I didn’t even need to practice this in my clinic, I just needed to know, should I be eating better? Should I be exercising more? And that’s how it all started. For me. It was a very personal and probably quite selfish journey that I was on. And also I’ve got two young children, and what can I do for my family? How am I going to make sure that in this day and age, we can be as healthy as we possibly can? So that’s how it started. And then obviously, you start learning all of these things. And then of course, I talked to everybody, my, all my patients, I’d like to think I’m not just a botox doctor, we will talk about hormones, sleep and stress, and all of the things that are affecting everybody. And I’d be saying, Oh, you try this, and have you thought about that? And this could be a great supplement for you to try. But I wasn’t being commercial about any of it. But I didn’t want to be commercial about any of it. At that point, I just wanted to kind of learn my knowledge and then excitedly share it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It seems, I would say, not only common but also the vast majority of journeys that you hear about in the overarching health and wellness space, not so much. Well, and I’m sure there are exceptions; I shouldn’t paint it like that. But it’s far more common in chiropractic and functional medicine, in the entire health and wellness space, for many people to have some sort of a very deeply personal story that starts them on their journey. And I’m sure, again, in medicine, you hear that, but you also hear the story of ‘I became a doctor because I wanted to become a doctor.’ No disrespect or offense to anyone, but sometimes there is a certain attraction to that because of the title, or because parents want it. You hear these stories, or at least you see them in the movies, right? The parents who wanted their child to become a doctor, whether the child wanted to be a doctor or not, they’re going to be a doctor, right? So, your story is kind of interesting in that here, you started in this conventional space and then, through your journey, experienced what we might call a reawakening or excitement in terms of mission, personal purpose, and passion.
Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah. Like many of us when we were young, I was incredibly idealistic. I thought I’d be a great doctor because I love people, I want to help them, and I’m very caring. All these reasons that you think would make you a great doctor turned out not to necessarily mean you’ll be one. That’s probably why I didn’t fit in with the NHS; I just wasn’t a good fit at that moment in time. I suppose there was a massive part of me that thought, ‘Oh my gosh, I’ve made a huge mistake. I don’t want to be a doctor. This is awful.’ And I felt like that for a long time. But that’s why functional medicine had to be a personal journey for me. I was thinking, ‘Well, I don’t ever need to practice this, but I can find out for myself. What can I eat? How can I be healthier?’ That was what I was aiming for. So, yes, I think I started my career in medicine for all the wrong reasons. I don’t want to discourage anyone. If you’re thinking, ‘But I care about people, and I think I’d make a great doctor,’ we do need all those qualities. Sure. But sometimes, having those qualities and trying to fit into what can be a very uncaring, harsh environment is challenging.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think the key distinction is this: It’s not that those characteristics or qualities would make a bad doctor. No, those would make me an amazing doctor. It’s that those characteristics and qualities are incongruent with the current system, the way the current system operates. The UK system is probably, in many respects, similar, although I’m sure there are differences. However, the mainstream conventional medical system is broken. You know, it’s very reactive. And so, the problem is that those ideas, or again, those characteristics we’re talking about, don’t fit well into that system because it’s a fairly harsh and cold environment as you mentioned. It’s a difficult environment. Andrew and I were discussing this earlier. I feel—and I could be wrong, maybe that’s just my perception—but I feel like there’s this kind of reawakening of people wanting to go back to the way that doctor-patient relationships used to be. Like the old-timey docs, the town doc, you know, where they would carry their bag of tools and have answers for people. They were it, you know, with all of these issues.
Dr. Natalie Geary: Just as a doctor cares for people in their community—like those you see at church or encounter at the grocery store, yes, or even at the general store—we are motivated by a need to help people.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yes, and genuinely trying to solve their problems without being constrained by external forces that interfere with that effort. It seems to me there’s a kind of reawakening, a revival if you will, where many physicians, medical doctors, chiropractors, and acupuncturists all want to return to that simpler model if that makes sense. Yeah.
Dr. Natalie Geary: I think that’s probably what drove me to aesthetic medicine. I was able to give each person 30 to 45 minutes of my time. It doesn’t take that long to do some small injections. And when we got busy, I never cut the time short to make more money because the joy for me always came from knowing my patient. I wanted to know things like, did your son get into college? Did your daughter pass her driving test? Did you get the promotion? Are you moving to a new place? Those are the bits that I love; it was that human connection. And knowing more about my patients meant I could serve them better. That’s why I never cut my time short, although some of my colleagues did. But I think it was to their detriment because they became kind of burnt out, frazzled, and disillusioned. It was kind of stepping back into the way of working in the NHS. Whereas, I perceived my time with my patients because that’s what I wanted. I wanted that connection with them. So, I can see amazing changes ahead for us as doctors and healthcare providers. You’re right. People need that connection and community, and I’m sure that’s the direction medicine is heading.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. Now more than ever, for sure. So, maybe you can tell us some cool stories. How long have you been using the EBarrels? You started with the Emerald, right? How many years have you had that? And then, how long have you had the EPRs?
Dr. Natalie Geary: Well, we were one of the first clinics in the UK to get the Emerald. It only really appeared, I think, within the last two years. Okay, yeah. So, yeah, but we were, I think, the second clinic to get on board with it. Just because I loved the ethos behind it. I love the fact that it didn’t kill a fat cell, and when you’re done with your functional medicine, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And of course, once I got started, and then I was talking to other people about all the other amazing things you could do with a laser, I got just super excited and basically couldn’t stop myself. I was like the kid in the candy store, ‘Oh, have those, I’ll have one of those.’ And then I can help people do that. Yeah, so yeah, I’ve probably got a bit ahead of myself, really, but I think it’s this longing to help people for sure. You know, I will see somebody for Botox, and they’ll tell me they’ve got a bad shoulder, and why not just jump into my red laser? And of course, I don’t charge them. Here’s me telling you what an entrepreneur is, right?
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s all right. So, tell us some of the cool stories, some of the cool things that you’ve seen.
Dr. Natalie Geary: Okay, I think one of my favorite stories involves a woman who tried the Emerald laser for fat loss and was seeing great results. About five or six weeks into her treatment, one of my therapists mentioned to her, “Did you know that the Emerald laser isn’t just for fat loss? It has several other benefits, including pain relief.” The woman was intrigued and shared that she had been dealing with sciatica for a long time, which significantly affected her daily activities. She had to modify her exercise routines and avoid stairs due to the pain. However, she noticed that she hadn’t experienced any sciatica symptoms since starting her sessions with the Emerald laser. I initially thought that the laser treatments might be temporarily easing her symptoms. But when I saw her months later and inquired about her sciatica, she excitedly told me it hadn’t returned. She even mentioned taking a fall during a walking holiday and fearing the sciatica would flare up again, but it didn’t. She was perfectly fine, which was truly astonishing.
Another story that stands out to me involves one of my employees who suffers from Crohn’s disease. This condition severely impacted her life, at its worst requiring up to thirty bathroom visits a day, along with significant dietary and lifestyle changes. She had to stop her medication almost a year ago due to an urgent call from her doctor about dangerously low white blood cell counts. At that point, I suggested she try using lasers for relief. After consulting with Dr. Rob Silverman on the best approach, given our access to various lasers, we followed his advice. My employee, having easy access to our treatments, used the Emerald laser almost daily. Within a year, the improvement in her symptoms was remarkable. She now goes to the bathroom like anyone else would.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So, were you using a combination of the Emerald effects and the EBRL?
Dr. Natalie Geary: Well, to start with, we were using a bit of everything because we weren’t sure. Okay. And Dr. Rob said, “Actually, just go on the Emerald.” Okay. So, it’s just been Emerald, and it suits her because it’s hers, you know. She’ll use it in her lunch hour. It’s very relaxing and lovely. But not only was she getting symptomatic relief when she went back to the doctor, the doctor basically was kind of like, “Well, you know, right. You’re so skeptical, right?” And, of course, that’s great. But let’s have a look at what’s going on. So, he started, and he did an MRI and a colonoscopy. Both came back with no active disease. Wow. Yeah. And then, so then, he was saying, “Well, I still think you need to go on this IV drip and do whatever.” And she’s like, “I don’t want to. I feel great. I can literally eat what I want. I’m living the way I want to live. Why change anything?” Yeah. And, you know, she’s a very switched-on person. So, she said, “Tell you what, because he was saying, ‘Well, actually, it doesn’t surprise me that this is where you are at because of all the medications that you were on.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s what did it. Yeah
Dr. Natalie Geary: And she rightly pressed him on this point. She asked, ‘But what if it wasn’t the medication? What if it’s the lasers that I’m using? Can we please re-examine this in a few months?’ Fortunately, that wonderful doctor agreed. So, in a few months, we’re going to observe as she undergoes more colonoscopies and MRIs, which is significant because they give her terrible side effects. She’s going to endure these procedures, and we’re very hopeful that there will still be no active disease. At that point, we might start having a meaningful conversation about whether there is any role for laser treatment in addressing the wars against more chronic diseases like Crohn’s, which was so life-altering.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I’ve got a friend of mine. And I’ve just seen, you know, just through social media, what he’s been pretty open about sharing. And it’s horrific. I mean, it really is. It impacts life in a very negative way. I mean, yeah. So the fact that you were able to get that kind of result, or that she was able to get that kind of result, is incredible. Yeah
Dr. Natalie Geary: It’s unbelievably exciting. But, you know, we all have to put our medical hats back on and not get carried away. Sure. Yeah, totally. But, you know, I just love having this technology in my clinic. I love the fact that I can help someone with a bad back or a bad knee. And, you know, I am an aesthetic doctor, not a chiropractor, osteopath, or anyone with any real experience in dealing with chronic pain. And I don’t do any manipulations. But I say to them, ‘Look, if it’s really bad, just lie under my laser for, you know, 20 minutes and see.’ And almost invariably, everyone gets back up and says, ‘You know what, that feels so much better. I can walk down the stairs; before, I was kind of hopping up and hopping back down again.’ So, I see it pretty much every day. And this is why I just love all this technology. Because I think, goodness me, this is something that works with our bodies to help us heal ourselves better rather than handing out medications.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Do you feel compelled now, what a nice story, to be able to help someone on your team with such a severe issue. Do you feel compelled now to help other people with Crohn’s? Are you seeking that out?
Dr. Natalie Geary: Do you know what? We’re not certain, and I think there’s a reticence on my part because we don’t have empirical proof. What I have is an anecdote that for one person, it did something amazing. And you have to be really careful not to use this as a claim we can’t support. We can’t say, ‘Oh, this has happened,’ and potentially engage in false advertising.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So you haven’t done a TV ad claiming to cure Crohn’s.
Dr. Andrew Wells: around London, look what I did.
Dr. Natalie Geary: I know. There’s a massive part of you that wants to do that. Because, wow, look what we did. Because it’s so exciting. But, you know, we don’t have the data behind it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think that Erchonia would be very interesting. I know they’re already overwhelmed with studies right now, but it would be a really cool project to look into. And maybe even consider a broader umbrella, not just Crohn’s, but also other types of colitis-related issues. That would be interesting because, unfortunately, these are very common problems. I imagine that designing such studies could be done quite effectively. So, my thoughts are mainly about the aspects of placebo control, blinding, and so on, but, yes, that’s what I’m thinking.
Dr. Natalie Geary: I think so. I mentioned this to Erchonia because I was highly excited. And actually, it was a really interesting conversation that we had. One of the founders kind of said to me, ‘That’s great, Natalie. But every week, somebody tells me about something amazing they’ve done with this laser,’ he says, ‘you know, for us to do a proper study, it’s about a million dollars per study. And so he’s like, ‘Well, you know, it’s wonderful if you’ve got that, but I could tell you about at least 20 other things that we should probably be looking at.’ So, of course, I understand that. You’ve got to go where you think you’re going to get your FDA approval from, at the end of the day, or where you’re going to make the most effective commitment, right? The most benefit? Yeah, so I do understand the issue. But what a wonderful issue to have.
Dr. Chad Woolner: The interesting, unique perspective that Andrew and I have is that we talk with clinical experts, doctors, and researchers, and see a spectrum of viewpoints. Additionally, we are entrepreneurs, business owners, and marketers ourselves, which gives us a unique perspective. One thing I’ve shared before, and I want to preface my next point by saying I don’t want it to be misconstrued as misleading in any way, is that the two most compelling forms of evidence for the community at large are scientific research—which is the gold standard, high-level research—and personal testimonials and stories. For example, when we do presentations at my clinic about lasers, I talk, and then we show video after video of what we call ‘one treatment challenge’ of patients who came in with pain in their shoulders, knees, feet, backs, etc. We show their experiences with the laser treatment and ask, ‘How do you feel now?’ This approach is very compelling.
When it comes to sharing stories, you may not have the resources to conduct a double-blind placebo-controlled study, but you can certainly capture a patient’s testimonial. It depends on the individual doctor. Some might claim they can cure Crohn’s disease, which, of course, is not advisable. However, there might be doctors like you who, if they shared a patient’s success story on social media or elsewhere (though I’m not sure about the regulations in England, where they might clamp down on such claims), and if a patient with Crohn’s disease saw it and came in asking if the Emerald laser could help their condition, I assume your response would be, ‘I don’t know, but it wouldn’t hurt to try.’ That’s what I assume your approach would be.
Dr. Natalie Geary: Absolutely. That’s it. Yeah, exactly. I want to make it absolutely clear that there is no medical evidence suggesting that this laser will work. However, we’ve treated one person, and they experienced amazing results. Yeah, if you’re willing to give it a go. And I think another fantastic aspect of the laser is that I can confidently say there are no known side effects.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s the worst that can happen? The only thing, the worst-case scenario, is nothing really changes. Yeah, that’s worse. Well, actually, I think I shouldn’t even say that. The worst-case scenario is you lose a little bit of belly fat because we know it’ll do that. Yes, you know, so, hey, your Crohn’s may not improve or whatever, but at least you’re going to lose a few inches off the waistline, which I’m sure everybody could appreciate.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Your sciatica will go away as well.
Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah, that was coming. will be if that doctor Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: But no, that’s really cool. You know, the fact that you’ve already accomplished that is what I find truly exciting. It’s been a two-year period, right?
Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah, I think we’ve had it. I think we’ve had it for about two years. You know, how COVID just skews everything.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s a time warp now. Yeah, almost like two years. But the fact that you’ve already witnessed so many incredibly exciting stories… I feel the same. You think, ‘How many more lasers can we acquire?’ because you recognize the significant difference they make as a powerful tool for our patients.
Dr. Natalie Geary: I do think, though, one of the issues, especially maybe in the UK market, is there’s a healthy dose of skepticism. Sure, it’s really hard for you to say, “Oh, by the way, I’ve got this amazing laser. And I know you’ve been going to see your physio, having massages, and trying all these other things for months. Why don’t you just try my laser? You’ll probably see an effect after about five minutes, and it doesn’t even feel like anything is happening.” And they just look at you, which is why I end up giving a lot of treatment away for free. Because I’m not quite sure how else I can convince you. Right?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, well, and that’s the beautiful thing that I’ve seen in my own clinic. And that’s exactly what I do. I give them one treatment. I would say 99.9% of the patients that come in, we let them try it for free once. Yeah, because then exactly that, like it’s like, hey, and I’m confident enough in that, that I know that they’ll see some type of improvement, because the vast majority of people will see some type of improvement in one visit. And I think that’s very comforting, reassuring, and very fair to patients, you know, when you approach it that way, because so many times with other therapies that we’ve had at our clinic. Because we know that with pain, in general, we’ll just use pain as the example. It takes time, you know, with most things for them to see. And what patients don’t want to hear, unfortunately, is exactly that. And so therefore, with other therapies where it’s like, you know, we need to give this, you know, you know, 10-12 tries before we see whether or not it’s working or not, and so it’s yet again, one more thing that they have to kind of put faith into, and that’s the last thing in the world, people want us to put faith in something, you know, that just does not, I think, instill a lot of confidence. Whereas with this, it’s been really cool because we’re like, you know, you don’t have to believe in it. You just try it once. See if it does anything. And if it does awesome, then that’s a good indicator that we’re going to be able to help you if it doesn’t, then hey, worse, you wasted 15-20 minutes of your life. Okay. Yeah, you know, so that’s powerful.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So, Dr. Geary, you mentioned earlier that you found aesthetics amazing, but not really stretching you professionally. What do you envision for your career over the next 5 to 10 years? Where do you see yourself being stretched in your profession and helping people?
Dr. Natalie Geary: So I believe that having the Emerald laser, which is intended to assist with fat loss, would be beneficial.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Crohn’s and sciatica
Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah, so basically, by having our fat loss laser, because I’m a doctor and medical professional, the idea that you just line up to a laser and shed your fat, I can kind of think, ‘Yeah, that’s great.’ But, you know, if you’re going to get fitter and healthier, we’ve got to add things into this. I’m definitely here to help you, but I’ve also got to ensure that you’re going to get fitter and healthier for the rest of your life, not just for my 10-week program, and then potentially resell it to you again next year. That’s just not interesting. So, I’ve created this program called Dr. Go Figure. It utilizes the Emerald laser to aid in fat loss. Then we incorporate lymphatic drainage because we know we need to get the body moving in order to release fat, metabolize it, and excrete it. We also include an exercise element, utilizing EMS, which stands for electro muscle stimulation. With this method, clients wear a suit, and we externally stimulate their muscles, providing a full body workout in just 20 minutes. I chose this because I knew my target demographic might not necessarily want to go to a gym or enjoy traditional exercise. So, I thought, ‘How can I achieve the best results possible in the shortest amount of time in a one-on-one environment?’ That’s where EMS comes in. Another crucial aspect is education. We explain to people how their bodies work and what does and doesn’t work for our bodies. I think it’s crucial because most people just don’t know. They’re unaware of how hormones can affect their weight or how a poor night’s sleep or working night shifts can impact their weight. There are all these things that people aren’t aware of. So, I’ve also created a podcast, currently exclusive to my Dr. Go Figure patients, which consolidates all of these elements. It’s aimed at helping individuals live a healthier, more active, and happier life.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s the name of your podcast?
Dr. Natalie Geary: Well, as I said, it’s purely for my doctor. Go figure. But the name of the program is Dr. Go Figure. So in the next 5 to 10 years, I actually want to push Dr. Go Figure. Definitely nationwide in the UK, I’d love to come to America. But that’s going to take some partnerships, if anyone’s listening. Let me know because then yeah, basically I’d love to see this, getting out there and creating a lot more impact than I can personally do myself.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Are you noticing that? Because this has been, I think, a fairly common theme for us: we’re discovering that patients want more education and information than we assumed they did.
Dr. Natalie Geary: I think we’re all very accustomed now, aren’t we, to opting for podcasts over thumping tunes while at the gym or during other moments such as dropping off our children at school or having a spare half-hour before work. We’ve grown accustomed to having vast amounts of information readily available to us. Education delivery has become increasingly accessible. In my podcast, I strive to explain the workings of hormones in a layman’s terms, enabling listeners to understand the effects of their food choices on their bodies, particularly in relation to insulin levels. It seems there’s an increasing appetite for such content, or perhaps we’ve simply made it more accessible.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I think it is more. I really do. I think it’s a combination of accessibility. But I also think that over time, I’ve noticed— and again, this could just be my own opinion, but I don’t think it is— a collective shift happening where patients are seeking to consume more in-depth information. One surprising aspect of this podcast is the number of patients we’ve heard from, thanks to various guests we’ve interviewed. They’ve mentioned receiving calls from patients saying, “Hey, I heard you on The Laser Light Show.” And we’re like, “That’s kind of cool. You know, that’s really cool.” What I’ve discovered in my own clinic is that instead of me attempting to explain things, I direct patients to listen to Dr. Brandon Brock, Trevor Berry, or Mark Funderlich. They do a much better job. Just check out episode number whatever, you know? And it just works a lot better that way. So I’m finding that patients are truly seeking more education and information to delve into. It must be enjoyable for you to be involved in teaching in that capacity. Because I imagine it helps fulfill the role you initially envisioned, wanting to be that type of doctor for your patients, you know?
Dr. Natalie Geary: No, it definitely does. And it’s given me that outlet, you know, for functional medicine, which I kept to myself. All of a sudden, I’m like, well, actually, I can tell people about how this could help them if we’re trying to help them lose weight. Yeah. So no, it’s been really good, fun, and definitely given my career a new lease on life.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome. Absolutely incredible. We certainly appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to be here with us and share this all the way from the UK. How long? How much longer are you going to be here in the States?
Dr. Natalie Geary: Oh, I’ve got to go home. I think it’s tomorrow night. Okay, I think I’m doing a presentation later. And I’m hoping there’s going to be a bit of time around the pool.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, there you go. Fantastic. Anything else you want to say, Doctor?
Dr. Andrew Wells: Thank you for being on the show. It’s great having you, and thanks for your insights. Hopefully, we’ll have you on the podcast again in the future.
Dr. Natalie Geary: Oh, I would love that.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Hopefully the next one will be in English. We’ve been meeting so many people from the UK. I’m thinking, we’re trying to build our friends network, so that we can have all of our tours lined up. That way, everybody can take us around and show us all the sights in the UK.
Dr. Natalie Geary: So, you’re very welcome to come to us. We’re in Weybridge, not far from London and very close to Henry the Eight’s home, Hampton Court Palace.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Very cool.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That sounds amazing. Alright then. Thank you again so much. We appreciate it. To everyone listening, thank you for being here for this fantastic episode. And yeah, we’ll share more with you on the next one. Talk to you later. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research news, and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access additional resources, including advanced training and business tools for free. Again, thanks for listening, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.
Dr. Natalie Geary is a UK-based doctor with over 15 years of experience in cosmetic medicine, specializing in Botox and fillers. Initially planning to join the NHS, she shifted towards aesthetics and wellness, driven by a passion for patient-centered care and the therapeutic applications of laser technology. Her approach combines clinical expertise with a deep commitment to improving patients’ overall well-being, highlighted by her development of health and wellness programs that integrate advanced laser treatments with holistic health practices.
In Episode #31 of The Laser Light Show, Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells interview Dr. Natalie Geary, a UK-based doctor transitioning from the National Health Service (NHS) to the field of aesthetics and wellness. Dr. Geary discusses her journey from feeling misplaced within the NHS to finding her calling in cosmetic medicine and later expanding her focus toward holistic health and wellness. She emphasizes the importance of personal connections with patients and the transformative impact of laser therapy, not only for aesthetic purposes but also for treating various health conditions.
I think it’s obvious that I’ve embarked on the entrepreneur’s journey, which isn’t for everyone, but it suits me.” – Dr. Natalie Geary
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells and on this episode of The Laser Light Show, we have the privilege of being here with Dr. Michael Trayford, all the way from Asheville, North Carolina. We are super excited to talk to him. He is doing some cool stuff. And so yeah, let’s get into it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Welcome to the show everybody. We are super excited to have Dr. Michael Trayford with us. Dr. Michael, thanks for being here with us.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Thanks so much, fellas. I appreciate it. I love that intro too, because I’ve seen more than a few laser light shows.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Did you? That’s amazing.
Dr. Michael Trayford: That is Hayden Planetarium in New York.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, yeah, I think you’re the first person to ever make that connection. They’re like, “That’s a laser,” like, that intro was very real because laser light shows were a big part of my teenage years. We would go to all the Metallica shows that my parents, my parents—I can still, to this day, remember—they took me to the Beatles’ “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band” shows. What they do is they take the whole album and just play it from start to finish. They’ll queue up lasers, and then, like, for “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band,” they’ll have an image in lasers of a guy drumming and a whole band marching, along with all sorts of cool images. Then they’ll blow the fog machine in, and it’s impressive. Really cool.
Dr. Andrew Wells: When I was a little guy, I went to one of those events, and only afterward did I realize that you were supposed to be on drugs to fully enjoy it.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Just gonna say, I was probably one of the few who weren’t stoned while there because, you know, I never realized that someone would just say you don’t need to be on drugs to enjoy it. And to this day, you don’t need drugs to benefit from laser therapy either.
Dr. Andrew Wells: whether you’re a young man or a young woman, listen here: don’t do drugs.
Dr. Chad Woolner: This is our PSA regarding drug awareness. Dr. Michael, you’re achieving remarkable outcomes in North Carolina. Please correct me if I’m mistaken, but you are a chiropractor and a functional neurologist, specializing in traumatic brain injuries as well as neurodegenerative and neurodevelopmental disorders, among others.
Dr. Michael Trayford: I am a board-certified chiropractic neurologist and also board-certified in Neurofeedback. We can discuss EEG neurofeedback; however, my primary focus is on trauma and traumatic brain injury, covering the whole spectrum from concussions to anoxic and diffuse axonal injuries, including vegetative states. I specialize in brain injuries, with some attention to spinal cord injuries and conditions, and delve into cognitive impairment, learning, and behavioral issues as well.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And how long have you been using lasers in your practice?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Lasers? I would say probably about seven or eight years.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And when did you go through the neurology training?
Dr. Michael Trayford: That was what I went through during school, during chiropractic college when they weren’t giving credits for that. So, I was just attending the courses because I loved them. As if I didn’t have enough to do, taking 25 to 30 credits a semester, I was trying to take neurology courses every weekend. And then, finally, right after school, I did my three years’ worth, and so I’ve been doing this for probably the better part of the last 25 years.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It almost makes more sense to me to do it that way. Just because you’re already in that mode of learning. You’ve already got momentum on your side. You know, where your brain is already in that “feed me” type of mode.
Dr. Michael Trayford: It helped give me a lot of answers to what I wasn’t understanding in chiropractic college. I learned many amazing things, but I still had more questions than answers. I believe diving deep into the brain answered many of those questions for me.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s incredible. And where did you go to chiropractic college in New York? Okay. All right, New York. Awesome. Fantastic. So tell us a little bit about how you’re using lasers. As part of this, we heard from someone here that you’re actually using the Zerona for brain-based stuff, which is, you know, for those who are listening, the Zerona laser is FDA-cleared for non-invasive fat loss. And so when we think of the Zerona, we typically use it in my practice. As of now, we have not been using it for brain-based stuff. And so now I’m very intrigued and, quite frankly, excited to hear how you’re using it. Erchonia would consider this as an off-label use for that, but it is fascinating nonetheless. So, yeah.
Dr. Michael Trayford: So Zerona is a new addition to our practice, in the past six to eight months or so. And, you know, I’ve been thinking about it for years and talking with Doctors in the field like Trevor Berry and others about Zerona applications beyond cosmetics. We’re still using it for its intended purpose, which is to reduce belly fat. But we’ve been delving into the connections between belly fat and brain function, particularly studies examining cortical atrophy, the decrease in size and thickness of certain parts of the cerebral cortex in individuals with excess belly fat. And there’s a distinction between subcutaneous and visceral fat. Many of the papers are linked to visceral fat. So we’ve encountered that conundrum too: can we target visceral fat with Zerona? We’re reducing fat, which ultimately benefits people’s health. Coupled with lifestyle changes, medical food protocols, or whatever it may be, we can address visceral fat through exercise programs, and whole-body vibration, and tackle both aspects of fat, leading to changes in brain function, particularly in populations unable to move. We see many individuals in wheelchairs, quadriplegic, hemiplegic, or even locked in, putting on significant weight due to higher caloric intake requirements stemming from hypermetabolic syndromes common after certain brain injuries. Yet, they can’t burn this extra energy due to their immobility, leading to the accumulation of belly fat. Their waist-to-hip ratios can be as high as two to one or even higher. This correlates with findings on CAT scans, showing cortical thickness. We’re having people undergo neuroquant imaging, a software that analyzes MRI data to examine cortical thickness and establish baselines. We’re observing thinner areas in individuals who can’t move. For those who can undergo cognitive testing, we’re conducting pre-and post-tests, along with laboratory analyses to monitor shifting markers. We’re observing physical and cognitive improvements, now measurable to an even greater extent.
Dr. Chad Woolner: You’re not even changing the placement of where you’re using the laser if I’m understanding this correctly. No, you’re simply applying it, let’s say, to the belly area. So, the abdomen. But what you’re doing is paying particular attention to how it’s impacting and affecting all these other holistic markers, including brain markers.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, it was just a no-brainer for us because we were addressing these things anyway, with changes in diet, intermittent fasting, medical food protocols, you name it. But we weren’t able to get that fat off fast enough. Yeah. And also, too, you know, they feel better because these folks, you know, they want to move; they want to exercise, they can, and they look down at their belly every day. And it’s just another thing that causes them to be, you know, withdrawn, depressed, not wanting to be around people. So just that alone, that social factor, having them feel more comfortable and close and being out with people, that impacts their brain as well.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, when you considered adding Zerona, was it because you wanted to help people lose weight? Or did you realize that by helping them lose weight, it would also improve their cognitive function? Or was it a little bit of both?
Dr. Michael Trayford: I brought it in 100% from a brain-based perspective, you know? If we get that belly fat down, their brains are gonna work better. Absolutely. Because, you know, we do get calls. We’re so busy with what we do. We do have people wanting to come in for the cosmetic end of it, but often we may just refer them out because we are so focused on the populations that we serve.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. Yeah, we’ve had our Zerona at our clinic for a couple of months now. We’ve talked about its systemic impact in a positive way. But when I say systemic impact, I’ve thought about more than just inflammation or gut health microbiome-type stuff. Going above and beyond and discussing its potential to improve brain function is a cool added benefit for the patient.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Getting somebody to understand that if they don’t have a severe traumatic brain injury, and even if they’re overweight, helping them grasp that what’s going on in their belly area is linked to how their brain functions. Witnessing that change in perception in a person is quite impactful. It shifts the focus from just the waistline, preparing for a wedding or fitting into a bathing suit, to realizing that it’s about longevity and improving quality of life.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, although I would say it tends to be an easier gateway for most people to start, as almost kind of crazy as that sounds, you know what I mean? It’s easier to get people to pull the trigger on aesthetic things than on more logical things, you know what I mean, in terms of most people, particularly women. I get it, you know, they are concerned with their appearance, and I understand that. I do, you know because we have these conversations with patients all the time. Look at your spine, look at your XYZ, whatever other condition, and they’re not nearly as quick or as apt, or even, I should say, excited to move forward, whether it’s a financial investment, or, you know, actual engagement in their care plan, or whatever it is, versus with this. Ronette kind of sells itself, in that sense of, hey, we’re gonna put this laser on you, it’s gonna help you, right? You know, lose inches off your waist.
Dr. Andrew Wells: Now, we’re going to cover this in a future podcast, but did you happen to make the connection between Zerona and, for example, your nephew? That might be or…
Dr. Chad Woolner: I don’t know if you made that connection. Yeah, he just started. Yeah
Dr. Andrew Wells: I think this would be a good time to share that story. And maybe Dr. Tray, could you share some stories that are similar to this?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yes, sir. Yeah. So, my nephew has autism. As soon as we got him, we started using the FX 405 with him. He had been doing it pretty consistently, once or twice a week. Within a few treatments, his mother started to notice a significant difference in his overall mood, behavior, and communication. You know, just a lot of these kinds of baseline day-to-day markers, if you want to call them that, with his well-being. He’s been doing it consistently now for several months, and it’s made a huge difference. We talked with Steve Shanks on a previous episode about what an incredible difference it’s made. He just started on this Zerona as well because he wants to lose a little bit of belly fat. I’m curious to see what that does for him as well. He’s been through two treatments already and has lost a total of four inches. So, I’m really curious to see what further results he achieves.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, particularly because, you know, generally speaking, autism, they’re not so concerned about their appearance, so it’s not going to be good looking. Feeling good. It’s going to be more of a pure reflection of the metabolic influences. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s gonna be cool. So awesome. So you have this Zerona, what other lasers do you use?
Dr. Michael Trayford: The FX 635. We’ve been using that for years and just love it. So many applications. My goodness, we started primarily with transcranial applications. We don’t treat pain in our clinic, so we went directly to neurological applications. Over time, we started to learn about the amazing benefits of working away from the brain. We spend just as much time on the gut as we do on the brain. We’re doing some pretty amazing protocols. We also work with a subset of people who have a crossover between concussion and addictive and compulsive behavior. So we’re seeing some pretty amazing things when we look at, you know, especially somebody treating for that. They might say, ‘Why are you putting a laser on my belly? I’m dealing with an addiction problem.’ But when you talk about the hotbed of serotonin production in the appropriate frequencies, people feel better when they work through their gut. Sometimes, particularly with learning and behavioral issues, we see better results than when we work directly on the brain. So it’s not about going for the obvious tremendous applications are going right on the brain, especially when coupled and layered with other therapies, be it physical therapies or Neurofeedback audio-visual entertainment. There are lots of layering and stacking applications. But yeah, I don’t know, where do you want to start?
Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, let’s talk about it from just the standpoint of my curiosity. When you talk about addiction, you’re not referring to people who have developed addictive tendencies post-concussion; you’re just saying there’s a crossover there in terms of overlapping findings, right? So if somebody comes to you as a patient and says, ‘I’m struggling with addiction XYZ,’ with no history of head trauma whatsoever, you would work with those patients. Right?
Dr. Michael Trayford: So there are a couple of ways to look at this, you know, addictions, in general. Aside from the genetic factors, there’s an understanding that there’s a learning and behavioral basis for addiction. So if somebody has preexisting ADHD, OCD, etc., and they experience a car accident resulting in a mild traumatic brain injury, they’re going to magnify those challenges. That’s just a magnification of something preexisting. However, some people develop attention deficit and other issues post-concussion; we see that every day. So it can be the creation of or magnification of preexisting conditions. Furthermore, there isn’t a person I’ve seen with a brain injury who wasn’t, at least at one point, on massive amounts of medication. For instance, there’s one individual I’m currently working with who is significantly dependent on benzodiazepines and Xanax, unable to stop taking these drugs. This is one of the unspoken addictions and one of the hardest addictions that people are dealing with these days because they virtually can’t come off of them. Laser therapies, when combined with other treatments, are helping to ease the burden a little bit, allowing individuals to work with their doctors to gradually reduce the medication that was given to them, which subsequently caused the addiction following the brain injury.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That alone, I mean, one of the fascinating things that we have found in interviewing so many experts, is all of these sub-niches, if you will, that we have discovered. Like, when we were talking to Jamie Thayer, she mentioned they’ve developed this whole niche of having a program for post-tattoo lasers to help people speed up the healing process. I thought, “What a brilliant niche!” You know, it’s like, what an incredible niche that is. When you’re discussing that, I’m once again struck by what an incredible niche you have there. It’s probably not being addressed in terms of the whole idea of addiction, but not necessarily addiction alone. Just the concept of using lasers as a bridge or a tool to help people who want to get off medication, to ease that process for them. Because there are so many people out there in that situation right now. How many people are unhappy with a particular medication, but feel like they’ve already crossed that bridge? My wife was one of them. She was on Ambien for years and knew it was a dead-end road. But the mistake she made, at the time we didn’t realize, was quitting cold turkey. That was a nightmare, a real nightmare. And I know, many others, they’re in the same situation. So if lasers can potentially be used, and I know we’re talking off-label here, but if you’ve seen in your clinical experience that it’s a really effective tool to help ease that challenge, then I’d say, “Yeah.
Dr. Michael Trayford: And that too, and also, you know, all the things that come with addiction, or are the crux of addiction: challenges with attention, focus, impulse control, and self-regulation, all prefrontal dorsolateral, prefrontal cortical issues—you know, lasers, aside from delivering energy and all the good things they do with photons, they stimulate neural activity. So, if you have somebody who has areas in the brain that just are not accessible because they’re largely living in fight-flight mode, their cortex is offline because of the nature of being hijacked, so to speak, if we can activate these areas while they’re engaging in different cognitive tasks, physical tasks, then they have greater access. And that’s the ability now to self-regulate emotional output, to control impulses, to create space between stimulus and response—we’re really big on that, you know, the whole idea, you poke the dog, you get bit because they don’t have any space between stimulus and response. As humans, we should have that as developed humans, as a baby, not as a senior with a deteriorating cortex who doesn’t have that ability. But we should have that. People with addiction either didn’t develop it or have lost that ability. So they get the craving, they use, they numb the pain, or seek pleasure. If we can tap into some greater access by using physiology, by harnessing the power of the lasers and what they can do to physiology, neuronal physiology, that’s a pretty cool thing. And those are where we can see some of those changes.
Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s interesting about what you’re saying, in general from a high-level perspective, is that it’s not necessarily the use of the laser itself that’s noteworthy, but rather, the laser is employed to facilitate various therapeutic activities or used in conjunction with them to assist in the process. This concept is quite similar to what we often hear from doctors regarding Erchonia’s applications: ‘good’ involves simply turning the laser on and letting it go; ‘better’ entails incorporating some form of movement if we’re discussing musculoskeletal issues, and I’m confident the same applies to brain-based applications; and ‘best’ involves introducing resistance alongside the laser, thereby creating a more significant physical challenge. Does this accurately represent what you’re doing and how you’re doing it, in general?
Dr. Michael Trayford: yeah, if you have somebody who’s had a stroke impacting the left side of the brain, they may have trouble moving their right hand or experience spasticity of flexors, making it difficult to extend their hand. What we can do is target the left side of the brain, specifically over the areas that control the affected hand, and provide stimulation while they engage in physical activity or receive electrical stimulation on the right hand. This helps the brain better understand the location of the body part and facilitates co-activation. It’s akin to dual-tasking, where engaging in multiple activities simultaneously often yields better outcomes. Whether it’s combining physical tasks with cognitive ones or integrating modalities like laser therapy alongside physical exercises, the goal is to enhance co-activation and establish stronger connections between brain and body.
Dr. Chad Woolner: It has to be rewarding for you to see this and to be engaged in this. It almost makes me feel like I’m, when you’re saying all these things, it’s like reminding me of a mad scientist, although you’re not mad, like, where you’re remapping and reprogramming at such a root level. It’s got to be rewarding and fascinating, and almost like a certain level of excitement and curiosity. That’s one of the things I’ve said so many times about these lasers—knowing that there is little to no risk associated with them. It’s like your playground; you can do so many different things in so many cool, unique and innovative ways. It opens up this wide opportunity for you to innovate, you know what I mean? In such a cool way?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, there’s no end to it. You know, we were talking a little bit before the show about my space. One of the areas I specialize in is EEG (electroencephalography), quantitative EEG, s Loreta imaging, particularly for traumatic brain injuries. Sometimes, we can’t conduct examinations, or we can only perform bedside examinations, but we can’t utilize many computerized diagnostics on unresponsive patients. So what can we do? We can place a cap on their head and record the electrical output of their brain. Then, we can observe how a laser might impact that output. If they have excessive theta brainwave activity, causing their brain to function slowly and be non-functional and bogged down, we can attempt to speed that up through various frequencies. Laser, like sound, electricity, or vibration, operates on frequencies. We can use higher frequencies to hopefully increase brain activity, allowing them to engage more with their rehabilitation. Currently, a significant area of study is examining the impacts of lasers on cortical output through EEG.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And so far, what are you seeing?
Dr. Michael Trayford: It’s mind-boggling, really, particularly with what’s called S Loretta imaging, which is more database-driven real-time electrophysiological imaging. So we can see, from a standard deviation perspective, how far away from the, you know, the bell curve, that individual’s brain is concerning a certain Brainwave. So delta, theta, alpha, beta, gamma, we can pick out a certain brainwave, we can look at that, you know, the initial EEG tells us where we need to kind of, like you said, mile-high, where we need to kind of, you know, home in and strike, so to speak, so we can look at specific parts of the brain and see if there’s, you know, for the addicted person if there’s trouble with the posterior cingulate not having enough Alpha brainwave activity. Well, now we can go in and use a laser that is at, you know, 10,12 hertz on that posterior cingulate region and we can see some shifts towards normalization. So instead of seeing the blues on the screen, we start getting more of the greens on the screen, and just decrease that standard deviation gap. Some people are so far outside the bell curve, you know, major outliers, they’re 4, 5, 6, 7 standard deviations out. And if we can get them, you know, with a couple of laser treatments down two or three standard deviations, that’s pretty remarkable. So that’s what we’re trying to quantify now.
Dr. Andrew Wells: One of the biggest issues we see, Dr. Trayford, Chad and I recognize, is that brain health is becoming a massive epidemic. And it’s only getting worse; the trends are worsening. We see laser therapy as a powerful tool to help with that, and we see Neurofeedback as another powerful tool. Sometimes doctors listening to this may think, ‘Yeah, this is all great. But I don’t have a neurology diplomat. Where do I even begin?’ And I think sometimes doctors, like this, it all makes sense to them, and they want to help patients with these issues. They already have these patients in their practice, but they don’t know what to do. Then you hear on one side, someone will say, ‘You can’t do any harm. So start somewhere.’ And then you’ll be talking about a specific area in the brain. And doctors might say, ‘I don’t remember CNS when I went to school.’ Is there, in your opinion, any bridge between where you are and your years of experience? And then, when a doctor picks up a laser, how and where do they start? How do they help people with these tools?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think everybody needs to appreciate their lane and what they do. For good reason, stay in that lane. That’s what we do; we don’t take on pain patients or many of the things we used to because we’re so concentrated on what we do. So it’s really all about collaboration and working with people who know what they’re doing. If we have somebody coming in dealing with pain associated with brain injury, we often work with chiropractors in our area, or most of our clients come from out of state. We have networks of doctors around the country that we can connect these people with—chiropractors, psychologists, other mental health professionals, laser practitioners, whatever it is. They have to start somewhere, but if they haven’t undergone ample training regarding brain function, it’s more like experimentation. I prefer to thoroughly study everything before onboarding it. I’m a bit of a stickler like my father; I need to understand something well before I execute. You have to start somewhere, learn, appreciate what you’re good at, and stay in that lane. More importantly, collaborate with people around you. I recently returned from a conference for the International Society of Neuroregulation and Research. I gave a three-hour talk to mostly Ph.D. counselors, licensed professional counselors, psychiatrists, and mental health professionals. Most of these professionals can’t provide laser therapy in their practice, but they were fascinated and wanted to know who they could refer their patients to. It’s about building bridges and connecting people, especially in mental health and neuroscience. Often, those two camps aren’t communicating. Bringing them together has been a passion of mine. Collaboration is the ultimate key; you need people around you who excel in their space.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s an unfortunate disconnect that you’re talking about there, in my opinion, from where I sit, shouldn’t be there. I mean, it’s like peanut butter and jelly, you know what I mean, in terms of why those things do not go together? You know, when you’re talking about mental health space? You’ve got it, it’s like two sides of the same coin, you know, in terms of—think about it, again, for…and I don’t know why I’m not…so I don’t know why I’m surprised by that. Because we see that a lot, you know, because of ego and territorial nature of so many providers of all disciplines. At the end of the day, patients are the ones who suffer, you know, as a result, and innovation is what suffers. So I can’t agree with you more when it comes to this idea of collaboration. Collaboration is, and I don’t mean this from an overly optimistic kumbaya type, because it might sound like that. But the truth of the matter is, I find that through collaboration, greater innovation happens, and also I find that business improves when you can develop good, strong strategic partnerships. We found that in our business as well. It’s been fantastic, so yeah, it’s a good mentality to have.
Dr. Michael Trayford: My business sucks. I loaded it a long time ago when I decided I didn’t want to treat what I didn’t like to treat and when I wasn’t that good at it. Yeah, and also to where I wasn’t leaving a huge void in the market, so to speak. Yeah, there were a lot of people treating pain; I didn’t like treating pain, so I was more than happy to let that go. And when I did, that’s when the phone started ringing off the hook. Yeah, so, you know, as chiropractors, acupuncturists, etcetera, etcetera, we’re more kind of generalist-minded; we can treat everything, and I believe we can have an impact on everything. I just chose to hyper-focus on what I do. And that’s what worked for me.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I have always enjoyed the generalist specialists. When you visit their websites, it’s like going through the alphabet, from A through Z, showcasing what they specialize in allergies, ADHD, auto accidents, and everything else in between.
Dr. Michael Trayford: I often encounter patients who insist on having a particular provider. For men, especially, we have to navigate through their websites and sometimes even make phone calls. There are many great professionals out there. However, for the unique cases we deal with, especially those involving genetic and neurodevelopmental issues, we need specialists who are well-versed in this area and comfortable working with it. These specialists constitute a small portion of providers. For instance, I once called a doctor—I can’t recall the state—and asked if they treated addiction cases. The response was, ‘I deal with junkies all the time.’ That ended the conversation right there. If he had experience with addiction cases, such a derogatory remark wouldn’t have been made.
Dr. Chad Woolner: I treat junkies all the time, you know. Spoken like a true professional, there’s.
Dr. Michael Trayford: It’s a shock. And I just said, ‘Okay, we’re done here.’ But it’s just to say that you know, I wouldn’t… it’s that whole thing. You know, if I don’t know something, I’ll tell the patient, ‘I don’t know.’ But it’s so common for people to say, you know, their provider told them, ‘Don’t do this, don’t do that,’ without any knowledge of what that person does. So I’m all about investigation. Yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s a great point. So, addiction recovery, that’s kind of a unique avenue. What other areas might surprise patients or practitioners regarding patient cases or types you’ve seen?
Dr. Michael Trayford: I spent a lot of time in areas we don’t focus on as much now because we’re so fixated on what’s visible. But I spent probably seven or eight years in the Movement and Balance Disorder arena. Dealing with everything from Parkinson’s, MS, ALS, and vertigo. So, we still receive calls related to neurodegenerative conditions, just for what we specialize in. It’s a significantly different approach to rehabilitation because those individuals are experiencing decline. We want to do whatever we can to assist them. We’ll try to find people who can work with them, but I’m very comfortable with that. I love working with Parkinson’s patients because functional neurology is probably one of the best tools they have, and when you add lasers on top of that, it’s a recipe for success in reducing symptoms.
Dr. Chad Woolner: And most of these folks, have you seen many ALS patients in your time? Unfortunately, yes.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah. And we know how that goes. Yeah, that was very challenging. There was a time when we were getting a lot of those referrals, you know, it just wore on me because getting these calls and attending patients’ wakes and funerals a year after meeting them. But it was comforting to know that we did what we could to help them along their path. There’s a doctor in here talking about improving the transition, you know, so people transition easier. That’s great, but it just wore on me. I took that stuff home and couldn’t let it go. Yeah
Dr. Chad Woolner: There’s a great documentary I don’t know if you’ve happened to see yet. It’s called “I’m Not Dead Yet”. It’s about Jason Becker. Does this ring a bell? Yeah, I haven’t seen it though. Okay, so this was important to me because I grew up playing guitar. Jason Becker, if you know, is great – you’ll have to, so anybody who’s listening, you have to check this movie out because it’s worth watching. It’s a great documentary. Jason Becker is probably one of the greatest guitar players that you’ve ever heard of. A lot of people haven’t – mainstream, you know? And yet, if you look at his accolades, he is one of the most accomplished not just guitar players, but musicians that have ever lived – amazing. He got asked to play lead guitar for David Lee Roth and started playing lead guitar for David Lee Roth. When we’re talking guitar players here, I mean, this guy was a savant – just incredible. This guy could shred on the guitar. It was so cool. As he started going on tour with David Lee Roth, he started noticing some unusual symptoms – weakness in his hands and things like that. So he went to the doctors and was shortly thereafter diagnosed with ALS. It progressed as ALS progressed, and it got to the point where he was in a wheelchair and could only move his eyes. The most fascinating part about the documentary, as fascinating and incredible and moving as this is to see him as a guitar player, he continued to compose and produce music with his eyes. He had this special computer made where he would compose entire symphonies with his eyes – he would move his eyes and place the notes. So you could see, there was still so much left inside of him, you know what I mean? Hence, the “I’m Not Dead Yet” – there was still more. You should have heard – that’s why the documentary is so good. You got to hear it, to see it, and hear it because the stuff he was still producing even with ALS was just unbelievable. Such a good documentary. So yes, I can appreciate not having seen ALS patients myself, but I could appreciate how that could very much wear on you. It’s unfortunate.
Dr. Michael Trayford: The beauty of the tragedy in this situation is that their cognition remains unimpaired. Yes
Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, they’re fully aware of everything. Yeah. So great. Great documentary, though. It’s really good. So yes, um, yeah. Jason Becker. Amazing guy. So yeah, it sounds like you’re doing some incredible stuff out there. And it seems like it’s been quite a few years you’ve been at this now.
Dr. Michael Trayford: I always forget that stuff. 23 to 24 years.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay. And no slowing down. It looks like I’ve been to your website. It’s beautiful. Your clinic looks amazing. And so clinic now.
Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s actually under construction. So yeah.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, you’re building a new one. Huh?
Dr. Michael Trayford: We are. Yeah, we’re moving. We need more space. So we bought a building; we’ve got about 4000 square feet now.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Are you in downtown Asheville? Or are you on the outskirts? Oh no, we are. Yeah, we’re moving. We need more space. So we bought a building, we’ve got about 4000 square feet now.
Dr. Michael Trayford: We’re on the outskirts of South Asheville. Okay. There’s a little more room to spread down there. It’s a beautiful area. Yeah. And we have this great place right on the lake. So there are walking trails and picnic tables, and fantastic families come and stay for 2, 3, 4, or 5 hours a day in the office with their exclusively immersive rehab programs. So they come for 5, 10, 15 days, in some cases a month or more. But they’re there all day, every day. So the families, you know, this will be nice. It was very intentional that they’ll have space; they can just get out and decompress. And yeah, we’re building caregivers’ rounds in the new place. So caregivers can go in and do all kinds of cool stuff for themselves while they’re there.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. What a neat layout and design. That’s incredible.
Dr. Michael Trayford: It’s taken a while, but you know, the wisdom and intentionality are all coming together. And we’re getting there. We’re looking at the replication end of things too. So, we have a couple of areas of interest that we’re going to be expanding into over the next couple of years.
Dr. Chad Woolner: When will this be finished?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Construction is pretty much done. I have to go back and check it on Monday. But moving in will probably be mid-December after the new year at this point because schedules are super tight
Dr. Chad Woolner: So, I have to imagine this has been a long time in the making
Dr. Michael Trayford: The other new office? Well, that was, you know, actually something that popped up. We were talking about the whole purchasing versus renting for years and the advantages to both are clear, but something popped up, and we couldn’t pass it up.
Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome.
Dr. Andrew Wells: So, what are you envisioning for the next 5 to 10 years? What excites you in the brain health space? What are you looking forward to doing?
Dr. Michael Trayford: You know, just looking at light and the brain, my goodness, fiber optics, and lasers, to me, is the biggest area of interest, particularly in the neurodegenerative realm. Big universities acknowledge that light heals the brain, even at a genetic level. So, it excites me to see where laser research is heading. You can Google low-level laser and find papers on its application to almost any nervous system condition. It’s very exciting to be at the forefront of this research before it becomes more controlled. Also, the applications of electrophysiological interventions and diagnostics are areas where I feel few are focusing. If I’m examining the brain, I’m looking at EEG every day. The learning curve in this field is tremendous; even after 10-12 years, I still feel humbled by it, continuously learning something new with each EEG I review. As the scope broadened, I felt more humbled; I felt like I knew everything, but now, it seems like I know nothing. It’s just how the process goes, or maybe that’s just the dementia kicking in.
Dr. Chad Woolner: No, you’re talking in that Socrates’s true wisdom lies in knowing you know nothing, right? So, like, the greater that seems to be a very common theme in my life as well. I look back at the previous 10 years, and I’m like, “Man, you didn’t know anything.” And then I just take it now at face value that I’ll know 10 years from now and say the same thing about where I’m sitting right now. So, it also further helps accelerate that whenever we talk to dogs like you, because I’m like, “Okay, yeah, there’s a lot that I have to learn.” And we talk just seriously. So I say this almost every episode: one of the cool benefits that we get is we get to talk to some incredible people on this podcast, you being one of those Docs. So yeah, we appreciate you being here with us. This has been a great conversation. We appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to be with us. And we’re excited about all the amazing things that you’re doing and the lives that you’re changing with the work that you’re doing. So keep up the good work. It’s incredible. We’re excited to hear more. And we hope to have you back on again to talk more.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Thank you guys so much. Keep up the great work. Yeah
Dr. Andrew Wells: Trying to orchestrate some episodes with some of the Olympic athletes you work with. Oh, hopefully. Yeah. We’ll get them on schedule. And if anything, if we don’t get them on the schedule, we’d love to have you back.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Absolutely. Yeah
Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, Dr. Trayford, thank you so much for being here. And for all the doctors and patients who’ve been listening, we hope this has been a really fun and eye-opening episode for you, showcasing some incredible advancements with lasers and all things neurology. It’s been cool.
Dr. Andrew Wells: One more thing before we get going. If you’re a patient, we know we have patients who listen to this podcast, which is fantastic. If you are dealing with brain health issues or if you know someone who is dealing with brain health issues, that’s what Dr. Trayford specializes in. If you look up Apex Brain Centers.
Dr. Chad Woolner: We’ll make sure to include a link in the show notes as well, right? Because what percentage of your patients come from out of town?
Dr. Michael Trayford: Probably about 85? I would imagine. Yes.
Dr. Chad Woolner: So if you’re listening, and you’re like, ‘But I live in California,’ or ‘I live in Texas’ or whatever. Great, good news. That’s where he sees people, people fly in and see him. So that’s great.
Dr. Michael Trayford: Just on that note, when people detach from their daily lives and enter into something kind of a child going away to soccer camp, they learn more in those five days than they did the entire year before. This is because they’re not just immersed in it, but they’re also detached from the daily hustle and bustle. There’s something powerful in that, you know, kind of like a brain reset.
Dr. Chad Woolner: Unplugging from the norms. Yeah, that’s huge. So, great point. We’ll make sure we put that in the show notes, and that way, people can have a link to that. But yeah, we appreciate it. And we’ll talk to you guys in the next episode. Have a good one. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There, you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as the Erchonia e-community, where you can access additional resources, including advanced training and business tools, for free. Again, thanks for listening, and we will catch you on the next episode.
Dr. Michael Trayford is a board-certified chiropractic neurologist and neurofeedback expert from Asheville, North Carolina. He specializes in treating traumatic brain injuries, neurodegenerative diseases, and neurodevelopmental disorders. Known for his innovative use of laser therapy, particularly the Zerona laser, Dr. Trayford integrates this with traditional chiropractic techniques and neurofeedback for a comprehensive approach to brain health. His work emphasizes the connection between physical health and cognitive performance,
highlighting his commitment to advancing neurological health through clinical practice, research, and collaboration.
In this episode of The Laser Light Show, hosts Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells sit down with Dr. Michael Trayford, a chiropractic neurologist specializing in traumatic brain injuries, neurodegenerative, and neurodevelopmental disorders. The conversation explores the profound impacts of laser therapy in medical practice, focusing on brain health and the innovative use of lasers for treatment beyond traditional applications.
