fbpx
Skip to main content

Episode # 32: Building a Business through Community with Jamie Thayer and Dr. Stephaine Wautier

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here, along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells. And on today’s episode of The Laser Light Show, we have the privilege of having Dr. Stephanie Wautier and Jamie Thayer with us. We are super excited to chat with them. So, let’s get to it.

Transcript

Speakers: 

Dr. Andrew Wells

Dr. Chad Woolner

Dr. Jamie Thayer

Dr. Stephanie Wautier

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show. 

 

Explore the transformative benefits of Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for athletes in our blog, How Laser Therapy Helps Athletes Physically and Mentally. Learn how LLLT can accelerate recovery, reduce pain, and enhance mental clarity. Dive into the world of laser therapy now!

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Alright, welcome to the show everyone, and a special welcome to Dr. Stephanie and Jamie Thayer. Thank you guys so much for being here.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Thanks for having us. We’re very excited to be on the podcast. Yes.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So we obviously have met Jamie before; she’s been a guest with us. Amazing. We had such a fun time with you. This is our first time meeting Dr. Stephanie thanks for being here.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Thank you so much. You know, it’s funny, I knew that Jamie had been on your podcast before. And I said I don’t know if people really know who she is. Right. We know her expertise. And we know how amazing she is. Some people might know her from this Arona Glow Your Business page. But I said, “Jamie, please let me tell people who you are. Jamie and I are actually co-owners of Glow Sculpting Spa. I am a chiropractor and own my own clinic, which is called Watch Your Wellness Chiropractic and Massage. But we have both businesses in one lovely, beautiful building. And, you know, Jamie, by education, she’s an exercise physiologist. She’s a medical laser specialist. She also owns an Anytime Fitness franchise in Harvey, Michigan. So she’s worked in this personal training and medical wellness industry since 1994. 

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: She was four years old when she started actually – she was a prodigy.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: And, you know, she’s worked with organizations like the US powerlifting team. She’s also USA W and NCSA certified in our community. She’s a radio host, and she’s also a social media influencer. I mean, I could just talk and talk. I mean, she’s an innovator. She’s a developer, she’s a strategist, she is a marketing genius. And you know, she’s partnered with Erchonia to do that, that Facebook page, that Glow Your Business. And I just wanted people to kind of know a little bit about, like, how we got to know each other, how we partnered, she has amazing things to say and share. But I wanted everybody to kind of know who she was, and where she came from. 

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Jamie is amazing. You know, when we first got ours and Rona. She was so helpful, friendly and kind to my wife, Amber, who is running that side of the business for us. And so Amber reached out to her, and she was always just so willing and eager to help. And so it’s, she’s a sweetheart, okay, you guys are just way too just gushing.

 

Jamie Thayer: honestly, I didn’t pay for this. And I’m happy to help. And of course, Dr. Steph is absolutely amazing. And it was actually like a major godsend in you know, Angel in my life about 12 years ago.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, you know, good business partnerships are not a terribly common find. And so when they do occur, you can sense that. And so it’s obvious that there’s a great deal of mutual respect that’s there between you two, which probably accounts to a large extent as to why you guys have had the success you’ve had in your business we said this like so many times, if it’s one of my favorites, it’s an old African proverb that said if you want to go fast, go alone if you want to go far go together. And such a really, true concept. And so it’s neat to see when I’ve been really fortunate and lucky in my life to have some amazing business partnerships. Business partnerships are not unlike in fact they’re almost exactly like marriage. Right? You know, you probably spend more time in your business as sick and twisted as that is you know in terms of the way things go you spend more time with your business partners everybody always jokes the Andrews, my business wife.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: You know, you’re my business wife. We argue about this. So the funny thing is Dr. Stephanie gave Jamie a glowing introduction. And obviously, you guys are business partners and best friends and Chad is my business partner and one of my best friends. However, every morning when I wake up, he goes, What’s up, dummy? What do you do? My wife’s like you guys talk to each other? It’s more of a deer. Yeah, we have a great deal of love for each other. We call each other dummy and stupid. It’s some reason it makes our day better and brighter. Got the other ones? To do that. I don’t think we’re gonna do that behind.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: the word that’s thrown around once in a while like, hey. We are very honest with each other. Hey, that’s sometimes brutally honest. Yeah, it’s good.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So Dr. Stephanie, where did you go to school.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: I went to Palmer in Davenport, Iowa.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s where Dr. Andrews.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Oh, seven one. Okay,

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: So yeah, you were a little bit before I started in Oh, seven, I think okay. So we might have just passed each other. That’s great. Yeah. Hello, friend. Hello.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So how did you two meet?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Can I tell the story? Sure. She gets a little embarrassed sometimes about this great story because she’s humble. And so it was about 12 years ago, I was having a lot of issues with my lumbar spine. I had seen physical therapists, orthopedic doctors, and interventional radiologists, I had every sort of intervention that way. rhizotomy nerve blocks, the whole gamut. And I was on a whole list of pain meds, including some you know, like Neurontin that had me forgetting things. I carried a little notepad with me at all times, so I could record things that I should not, like, forget. And then I started having issues where I was starting to kind of like, well peed my pants. And I felt so frustrated because, you know, this interventional radiology, you know, when I said, I think I need to see, you know, someone else, they wanted to continue. And then I’m, I knew something was greatly wrong. And I didn’t have a ton of experience with chiropractic care. And I was at that time managing a gym. This is previous to when I bought my Anytime Fitness. And her practice was down the road. So I walked in one day and spoke to her office manager and said, I don’t know, can she help me? And she said, Well, that’s a book first, you know, consultation. After ordering the X-rays, and going through that, my first appointment with Dr. Steph, she sat me down and politely said in her very sweet voice. I’m not going to adjust to you today. And here’s why. And I think you need to see a neurologist. And it was shocking, but I felt okay, this woman is finally taking me seriously and doesn’t just want to shuffle me around or give me more meds. And so she asked me if she could, you know, process a referral request to a local neurology department at the local hospital. And the fact that for one, they took her so seriously that within about 48 hours, the nurse from that department called me and scheduled an appointment. I met with a neurologist. They ordered an MRI and I was in surgery in a week with a multi-level spinal fusion. Wow. Yep. So not only did she refer to me but I thought she was incredibly ethical. She checked on me during the process.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: What was the official diagnosis? I’m just curious. spondylolisthesis bottle, okay. Wow,

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: yeah. And I end up with a three-level fusion. They went anterior. I was in the hospital for about five days. And then the road of recovery was pretty intense after that, but Dr. Steph and her office manager Val who’s amazing also, I mean, they brought me magazines over, they brought me little treats, they checked on me, I just felt like who are these people? And so really, I mean, as I said, the sheer ethical response and like the care that she took was just mind-blowing.

 

 Dr. Chad Woolner: They drilled into us in chiropractic college, something that I think this is such a beautiful story because it illustrates because these are not the types of cases that come in through the door every week, you know, in fact, these are pretty rare, but this is the point. They said that the sign of a good chiropractor isn’t just when the chiropractor knows when to adjust, but rather when not to adjust. And this is exactly what I guarantee you there probably would have been plenty of other docs no offense to anybody else. But just truth be told, who wouldn’t have bothered to have taken the time to evaluate? And would have been fine to just and maybe that wouldn’t have done any, maybe it wouldn’t have. But the point being is, the fact is that you had somebody who cared enough to do a thorough evaluation to find some significant issues there and then get you the help that you needed. Speaks volumes. So absolutely.

 

 Dr. Jamie Thayer: So she stuck with me for life. You know, I think I actually was like, we need to go out for coffee. Like once I can drive and we need to go out for coffee. And we did and we’ve just become really fast friends. And yeah, she’s my family now.

 

 Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s amazing. So the question is, who introduced them to Erchonia Lasers? That’s the question.

 

 Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Well, you know, here’s another thing we’re like, let’s catch up. Let’s catch up, you know, and we went to lunch, and I had already had the FX and the ERL in my very, like musculoskeletal chiropractic practice.

 

 Dr. Jamie Thayer: Can I just interject here? Sure. So before this happened, I was actually scheduled for another surgery. Because you know, once you have a spinal fusion, it’s very typical to have issues further up, and you had just purchased the FX 635. And I came in and started getting lasered and I still have not had that surgery.

 

 Dr. Chad Woolner: How shortly after the surgery, were you getting lasered?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer:  It was actually I had the surgery scheduled? And I canceled it.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I mean, the initial one, how long after the initial one was?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer:  This would have been like seven years? Oh, okay.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So would have been a while it was totally different.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: It was just further up. Okay. And because you had this FX 635, and I’d come in for that. So that’s another side note, too. And I guess, you know, that’s kind of, I mean, I guess thinking about it and speaking about it out loud. Now, I mean, that’s pretty remarkable.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So that is huge. Because I can’t tell you the number of patients over the years that we’ve, I mean, there’s a reason why there’s an ICD 10 code for Failed Back Syndrome, you know, in terms of that, and so it’s one of those things where I’m not saying that there’s never a time and a place for surgery case in point, you know, what I mean, sometimes are, but the problem too, is, is exactly that, once you open kind of Pandora’s box. And most ethical doctors recognize that back surgery on that level does not have a solid track record in terms of outcomes.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: About a third get better. Yeah, a third gets worse, and a third may have no change. And that’s what the neurologist disclosed. So really, since then, chiropractic care from Dr. Steph, which is kind of RAD when your business partner slash bestie can help you without an appointment. And, the laser has really kept me going. I mean, really, so you know, and not to interrupt you. But when she came to me with the idea of the Zerona, and it was from the same company, and, you know, understanding me you know, the background of like exercise physiology, and, you know, as a trainer, and yadda I thought, okay, if this does half of what you’re saying it does, yeah, I’m on board. Yeah, I’m in.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: And originally, I wanted her to have it in her gym. I was like, You know what, I don’t know if I have the capacity for this. I don’t know if I can integrate this into my practice. So what about having it in the gym, and then we started looking for buildings? And then we now have a beautiful 3000 square foot suite that has both the chiropractic office and the laser Med Spa.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: That’s amazing. We actually have nine lasers now. So we do like a lot of photo thermolite aesthetic services. And we grew. I mean, we both have, again, not to like giving away our age, but we both have been consumers of medical esthetics services for some time. So this was an interest and it worked.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: in this business. Is it just the two of you like that? I mean, you have a team that works with you, but in terms of it, it’s your two owners, right? Yeah. Okay.

 

 Dr. Jamie Thayer: But we have a satellite location that my sister Jennifer nurse Jennifer runs, she’s an RN, fantastic. She was one of the, you know, healthcare providers that the mass exodus after being burned, totally burnt out.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: We heard COVID We heard the coolest story today from Dr. Chris Bromley and I don’t know if we mentioned this on the podcast.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, why not? I don’t think he would care. I don’t think he needs this actually needs to be.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I know we need to have him on the podcast again. So you know Chris Bromley right? He’s a podiatrist. He was fired in New York. So Originally, they told him, Hey, we want you to get the vaccine. And he’s like, I’ve already had it. I have the antibodies. No, thank you politely and they’re like, No. And they’re like, well, then you’re going to quit. And he says, No, I’m not going to quit. You guys are gonna have to fire me. And so they are in New York, and they fired him. And he’s like, and he said, he’s like, turning around to all the other doctors who are like sitting there silent. And he’s like, why are you guys silent about this? He says, You guys are being cowards. You know, this is not right. You know, and, so they wound up firing him, and then they sent him a letter.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: it was a letter that they’re gonna send to like their 75,000 patients saying Dr. Bromley is no longer with us. He’s decided to leave the practice. And he said, No, that’s not what happened. You’re gonna put in here that I was fired because I didn’t get the vaccination. And they put that in the letter and sent it out to 75,000 patients. Not long after that, they sent him a letter in the mail saying, hey, they’re gonna give you a severance package and gave him some money. But in return, you’re gonna sign this 12-page document saying that you agree not to sue us down the road for firing and he goes, well I’m not gonna say the idea. Yeah, he goes, I’ve never even considered that I could sue you for that. But that’s exactly what I’m going to do waking a sleeping bag. I’m just gonna. He’s like I’m gonna wait till the time is right and then I’m going to sue you guys. And that’s what he’s going to do. And we’re like, hell yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So basically what happened and you guys know in New York, they’ve reversed everything now to where they have to hire back and they have to pay back all these people. So it’s rightfully so no doubt, right? Yeah, so anyways, it’s real. 

Dr. Andrew Wells: How come we don’t force Zerona treatments. That’d be great, wouldn’t it? You are you’re gonna go in and get 10 sessions or you’re gonna pay.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: 10 Zerona sessions or you’re fired?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: The ironic thing too is and again not to get into a whole thing but during the shutdowns I mean in Michigan gyms were shut down the longest and a fun fact and again, this is a this is one of those things where you’re like what in Michigan strip clubs open before gyms and right in my gym.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: essential services Jamie come on.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: happens to be in a strip mall next to a McDonald’s and my whole team came in and we did it work BS and we painted and refinished floors and all that but to watch this incessant, like, endless line through the McDonald’s drive-thru as we’re, you know.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I’m envisioning I’m envisioning like those you know, those like trash picker-upper thingies with the you know, the little gripper hands that are like, you know, three feet long or whatever, that’s at the strip clubs. They were social distancing with those with their dollar bras that they were.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: We call those granny grabbers.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: No, we’re going off-road here.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: This is off the rails is not gonna like this

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Real talk, right?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So yeah, anyways, that is a little wild, though. You know, that is a little wild to think

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Parodies are complete Oh, man messed up.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, we were at a mastermind meeting in Florida? Where was that one with Ian?

 

Dr. Andrew Wells:  No, that was in Park City. Oh, that was in Park City.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. What’s his name? He was the gym owner in New Jersey that refused to shut down. And stood his ground and the stories he shared were believable, and unreal. I mean, what he went through and what he wound up like having to sleep at the gym because otherwise, they were going to board it up.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: They let her lock his door. So he removed the doors. And so he’s like, No, I don’t have any doors. I’m gonna have to sleep there. So no one robs the place at night. And he did that for I think a long period of time. And he kept operating.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, the thing I’ve said throughout all of this is history is going to be so favorable to people like him, and so not on the side of the tyrants. I mean, it really.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I think, too, and we’re like, why are we talking about all this? And I think the reason we’re talking about some of this stuff is when we had you on our first podcast episode, Chad and I were a little bit blown away by how you’re using lasers, lasers in a really innovative way. We had no idea, like, you were laughing actually, before the episode. Like we didn’t realize you’d use lasers for all these different things. And then here comes Jamie Thayer and like, oh, yeah, by the way, we use it for tattoos.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: 48 hours.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: What the heck like what else can you do with lasers?  So yeah, so your podcast episodes of the previous one and this one? Yeah, we do go off-road a little bit, but that’s okay. Sounds good.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Sorry. That’s, that’s honestly, these are the episodes that I really enjoy. Because you just get to explore a little bit more and that’s why I look forward to having recurring guests because we get to kind of dive deeper into some of it.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. And it just goes back to you know, why is this relevant to your inner Erchonia podcast is we’re talking about, at the end of the day, we’re talking about light. Yeah, right, like light therapy, what can you do with light therapy? Why is it good for the body? What are the different applications for it? As we kind of went down the rabbit hole of conventional healthcare and COVID. And that whole, you know, crazy issue. I think most healthcare providers got so sidetracked. I mean, we’re, I don’t think we actually were going off-road, if you look at conventional medicine, they went way off-road with that. And the cool thing is, I think, now that we’re seeing, you know, the benefit of this is it kind of snaps back, and we’re rebounding here, as people are actually looking for offices like yours and clinics like yours, and forward-thinking providers that are doing things in a unique way to build health and build the immune system and, and solve back pain in a way that doesn’t require surgery. And now, you know, we talked about tattoo removal or the healing of tattoos and your unique.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  We had a meeting yesterday, briefly with another doc that we’ve worked with. And one of the concepts that just kind of, we stumbled into in this conversation with him was the past two years, what we’ve seen is have created a massive leadership vacuum. And so clinics and individuals and businesses who stood for something, and when I say stood for something, I don’t mean, because because there’s like a spectrum, right? There are those people who were like, complicit with insanity, which is like, not good. And then you have people who were just kind of silent with the complicit or you know, that were silent with the insanity. And then you had kind of the middle ground where there were people who were like, This is not right. And if they had the opportunity to stand for what was right, they stood for what was right. And then you have people who are leading and proactively in their communities doing things like you guys, and then you have people who are like, just ready to put their necks on the line. And I have all the respect for like, Chris Bromley.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Totally. I’ll be fired. Yeah, scary.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: totally. The doors office.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Wow. Yeah. And so and so my questions slash comments. I don’t know if this is gonna be a question or a comment. I kind of sort of did you see, have you seen over the past two years? A, an increase in patient retention, patient loyalty, patient numbers, just in general and client-patient slash client, right? People, as a result of you guys not wavering and kind of sticking with kind of you guys kind of maintained a certain sense of stability in the community and leadership? Do you agree with that?

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Definitely. I actually stayed open during COVID. And we had those very specific rules like you can only see emergency clients, and this is what stipulates an emergency. And I covered for two other chiropractors who didn’t want to stay open during that time. And, you know, now I’m, like, not accepting new patients. And I mean, I think that word of mouth is really big in our community.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And how if you don’t mind me asking, I don’t I hope I don’t cause any problems. However, the doctors who closed down okay? are they struggling?

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: One of them is struggling. Yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And I don’t have any offense whatsoever, But again, that kind of illustrates my point that I think now people more than ever, having come out of that are looking for leaders, true leaders more than ever before. And again, no offense whatsoever. But Doctors who closed, you missed a really incredible opportunity to be that leader that not only people want, but they need people again.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Yes you’re like you were a beacon during this time.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: And, I had the amazing opportunity to spend a little more time with people because I was the only one in the office. Yeah, and I didn’t have my full wellness schedule, which is really packed. So I sort of had this like a little bit more leisurely time. And, you know, that’s when that like emotional and physical component is so tightened together, you know, so people are, you know, they’re literally crying on your shoulder, they are literally, you know, sort of sharing things that maybe they wouldn’t have in my shorter, like sort of more natural wellness visits.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Well, and now you have so many patients that we need a laser to clone you. Yeah, essentially. Yes. And you know, as far as the Med Spa side of it, during the closures, just to keep myself busy, I’m a little bit hyperactive. So I would, you know, I can only file so much for Doctor stuff and come in and clean the office and do things like that, but I leveled up and doubled down on training. So additional licensing that I would not have thought I had time to take out of my life and go, you know, to Arizona. That’s where I went for this aesthetic training, additional aesthetic training, but I went a month at a time, there’s no way I could have done that in a normal circumstance. So it’s like making lemonade. You know.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  It’s super inspiring for people to hear that right? Because you could have totally taken the approach of like, you know, like the fetal position in the corner of the thumb in the mouth, you know, like, which is totally understandable.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: You know, disclosure, the first two weeks of the shutdowns I bought an air fryer and started deep frying Oreos with the air fryer. With the intention of it being so healthy, I can make those crispy Brussels sprouts. No, I really figured out how to deep-fry Oreos.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Not deep fry air fryer.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: You need to eat while you’re watching the prices. Right?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Right, I need to find out who was the dad on Maury and all that so. So really the first two weeks within it was like, Okay, we need to get a grip here and be productive and figure out what is within our control. Yeah. And that’s how we proceeded.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: I mean, this is the epitome of Jamie. I mean, there’s nothing that’s gonna get her down. Nothing. Like no thing on this earth. She’s gonna make a way she’s gonna be creative. I mean, yeah, she’s an innovator. Nothing will stop her. Like, that’s incredible.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So speaking of innovation, what are some cool new things? Are there some cool new things with the lasers that you’re using? Like, because for a recap, for those listening? In the previous episode, Andrew kind of mentioned it briefly. But one of the cool things that Jamie had brought up with us is that they had found this kind of really stumbled across. That fair way to say it stumbled across this really cool niche of helping people who had gotten tattoos to help with the post-tattoo pain and or healing. Absolutely something other any other new niches that you’ve discovered innovations or other cool stories.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: I mean, we’ve also treated the FX 635. People’s incisions from having, you know, plant we see a lot of people who have had plastic surgery as well, whether it’s breast augmentation, you know, nose jobs, things like that, which they do tell us about because we’re a med spa, you know, I see them on the Med Spa side. So we’ve you know, of course, and just like any surgery incision, that’s not a new way to treat, but I feel like people are finding that they feel safe disclosing that, which plastic surgery is still kind of like the dirty little secret that you know, I mean, you see, there’s hotels next to plastic surgery centers that people just go into hiding even after. And so it’s that aspect too. But you know, we’re just continuing to build on those partnerships we have. And that’s one little facet because we do tattoo removal, as well with lasers, not these lasers, but we do tattoo removal. So we have these partnerships with tattoo shops. So we already know, and it’s easy to establish that you introduce yourself. But this is and I was speaking with someone yesterday, another doc, and elsewhere that, you know, the way we really built this up is we went in. We introduced ourselves, we gave them a little spiel on what the laser does. And we invited them in to get a free session. Because tattoo artists seem to be getting tattooed. All the time. Yeah, so we invited them and no strings attached came in, they were amazed because immediately the pain was relieved. And I know you guys don’t have tattoos, but maybe you should run a little experiment. Because if you hate it, come to Michigan, I’ll remove it. But really, you know, just see it to believe it right? Because this is a different dichotomy of thinking of care solutions. And, you know, just to experience it firsthand. So we found immediate pain relief and well within 48 hours, the tattoo was 90% healed. That’s amazing. So for them, at least tattoo artists benefit them and explain it and demonstrate how it benefits them. And the ways are, you know, attached to you typically takes about two weeks to heal and during that time it can be infected. It can be scratched up, picked up, or poked at people can totally destroy their tattoo. Okay, so on the flip side, someone’s tattoo is almost completely healed within that 48-hour time with 120-minute pain protocol effects. And on the other side, too, is what if someone has a large piece they’re working on and this tattoo artist is saying okay, I’ll see you in six months. I’ll see you now here and there and these people are never coming back because it was a good idea. They had the money right then but then they did an all-day set which now our area is about $1,500, they might need two more that’s booked way out. You know, it’s like one of those things where it’s like, Oh, I’ll get to it eventually, five years later, they’re like, Oh, I still haven’t gotten this tattoo fixed or finished. So these artists can do a faster turnaround. So when that person is motivated and ready, they can book them a week apart and finish this larger piece. So it’s a higher ROI for the tattoo artists too, you know, since so, but it’s about establishing, here’s how it’s going to benefit you and come in and do it for free. I believe in it so much that they can come in for free.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: What percentage would you say are coming in for a post? Or post-surgery versus tattoo?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: More tattoos?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: More tattoos, significantly more people?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: I mean, 28% of the population in the United States has at least one tattoo?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think to maybe your state I’m cuz I’m thinking the minute youth started saying plastic surgery, and it’s the hidden thing. I don’t know if I’m right or not. I have in my head the opinion of which state per capita has the most plastic surgery. Again, I know I was just gonna say Michigan does not strike me as capital. Do you know?

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: We’re in Florida right now. It’s either Florida or California. Or maybe per capita.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Like Arizona to Scottsdale is?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  I’m gonna say, I think it’s Utah. Really? Oh, I think it is, well, because Andrew has been trying to get Amber and I to watch what we’ve watched, like, I think the first two or three episodes of The Real Housewives of Salt Lake. Oh, yeah.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Human. brain cancer.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, that’s right. My wife and I love that show.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I know he’s, well, he’s always telling me. So we’re members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. And so he’s always informing me about new things. He’s learning about our church, through the Real Housewives of Salt Lake, which is like, exactly where you want people to learn about.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s where I get all my relevant information. Everything. So anything on Bravo, bravo is pretty much real.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So yeah. Anyways, sorry, again, we’re going down this rabbit hole. But the point is I was the reason why I’m thinking this is because, you know, cosmetic surgery numbers, where are they going to be? I would have to imagine Florida, California, Arizona, and Utah, are probably going to be really prime opportunities for dogs who could position themselves in that way, in that unique way.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: You know, when I think of med spas, I don’t think of the UP at all. And you guys are in the Upper Peninsula. And I find it funny too, that most people don’t know that there is an upper peninsula of Michigan. Truly, they don’t know that, right? And so maybe, you guys can talk to me because I know that Doctors will say, I know you guys do well with your clinic and have done a really good job from a financial standpoint in building your clinic, which is fantastic. And I want you to talk about that. And I think sometimes Docs will naively think well, okay, that’s because there’s nobody else in the UP that does anything like that. And it’s not true.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: right? In our town. We have three other med spas. Yeah. So with Zerona, and Emerald, what we have at our clinics, we’re competing with UL therapy, and two places with CoolSculpting.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: The thing that you’ll find in meeting Jamie, and this is my first time actually in-person meeting Stephanie. So I’m assuming the company you keep there’s probably going to be some overlap and similarity there. But the one thing you will notice, that’s obvious, is that success leaves clues, they say, right? And so when you meet Stephanie, it’s very obvious. She’s got a very energetic personality. And I mean that in the best way possible. And it’s very obvious, she’s a go-getter like she’s the type where she’s a very determined person. And I would assume that has served you very well, in terms of your success that you’re very much You strike me and we’re and we’re us as the type of person where when you set your mind to something like okay, I’m going to do this thing. And like, come hell or high water, you’re going to do that thing. You know what I mean?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer:  Dr.Steph and I both have a twin personality like that. Yeah. So watch. Yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And so that’s part of it.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: And maybe this is the point is yes. Alright. Well, I just got my Erchonia laser, and everybody surely knows how great Erchonia lasers are. So I bought the thing now everybody should start flocking into our clinic and start getting these amazing therapies. But maybe you guys can talk about how you’re really promoting, not just laser therapy, but just promoting your clinic and maybe some of the crossover between the med spa and the chiropractic part and how you’re really making that work.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: Well, Jamie is really a salesperson. I’m not so great at sales. You I’m sort of a little bit more of an academic and maybe more of a healer and maybe not as bold or confident as Jamie is. That’s a good thing. Sure. It’s a good thing. We all have our strengths and our weaknesses. But, you know, Jamie has really developed systems. She, as I mean, most people probably not, she’s like a social media Maven. I mean, we could all learn from her. But she’s really perfected the systems perfected consultations and perfected closing the sale. And she’s really developed things that I like, never could have. Absolutely never could have.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: And on that subject, I think that’s important to have in your clinic. But would you say it’s more of a system, you’re a product of systems are more a product of just the fact that Jamie can sell stuff. Or is it a combination of both.

 

Dr. Stephanie Wautier: systems that she has created,

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I think more doc Stephanie is like you like I’m a healer, I’m an academic, I’m a doctor, I’m a chiropractor, I’m not a salesperson.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: What we’re trying to do here is dissect this for the value and benefit of the doctors, because it’s really easy to get caught up in the trap of thinking, Oh, they’re amazing, they can do it. That’s not me, you know, and so and then all of a sudden create this massive discrepancy, because what we’re trying to do, and hopefully, this isn’t like too tall of an order for this podcast, in terms of we’re trying to do everything for everyone. But we’re trying to help practitioners who are listening to this podcast understand and dissect the kind of secrets that, if you will, are the steps to success. From a business not just a clinical standpoint, obviously, clinical outcomes, but from a business standpoint as well. Because ultimately, what that means is, they’re going to be able to help more people, right? You’re not You’re not doing your community any favors by investing in an intercolonial laser, and then letting it just sit and collect dust, which I’m confident unfortunately does happen for some docs because they know exactly what interested them I naively assume. But I got this thing. It’s amazing. Listen, The Laser Light Show says it’s amazing. So, therefore, we should see, you know, if you buy it, they will come. Then it’s the house. Yes. And so and so the whole idea that Andrew was kind of honing in on was Not to disparage Jamie or Stephanie in any way, shape, or form. But it’s not that you’re just this gifted, unique person, although you both are gifted and unique. It’s the systems that were developed, it’s the men, it’s the mindset of determining that I am going to succeed with this thing. Therefore, I am going to take steps, you know, and in terms of the steps, nothing out of the ordinary in terms of what other doctors aren’t capable of doing. Any doctor is capable of doing this. It’s just a matter of whether they will do it. Will they make the effort? Because the lasers don’t sell themselves? I mean, they kind of do. Actually, when you get people in, they kind of do but you’ve got to take some steps you have to do.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: There’s an intention there. So yeah. Okay, so on that. So Erchonia approached me about developing this private Facebook page called Zerona? Glow your business? And it’s great, it’s a community where we can share ideas, and it’s all focused around the roads they’re on and well, and it’s interchangeable with emeralds. Okay.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, but the aesthetic leaves your side, right?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Okay, perfect. And so on. There also, I’ve been sharing some marketing plays, we’ve been doing some, even images that can be used verbatim what we put in a post because here’s the thing, you know, we’ve we do have systems in place, we have methods and just utilizing, like sales psychology, I think about this when we develop strategies. This is something that someone even applies when they are thinking about their marketing strategy, we all want three things in life, and every human wants, it can be broken down into three things to be important. So that’s where your validation comes in. If you know, I see you as a human, you are important, okay? So we want to be and feel important. We want to feel better, we want to have health, we want to have vitality, energy, we want to be able to, you know, be thriving, and I don’t care what anyone says you want to look better. Sure. So when I put out our marketing and campaigns, I’m always trying to think, Okay, how is this hitting on either one of those aspects and conveying that or all and, you know, that also is the way we train our team. That is the way our office is, you know, from what I received when I walked into Dr. Steffes. Office 12 years ago, I was seen, I was important, and she cared about how it was feeling, you know? And so when you think back like things that you’re even loyal to brands, your loyalty gives you One of those three things, or if you can provide all three, that is money. And I don’t mean literal, just that that is on point that is what you want. That’s how you have fans for life. That’s how you have patients, clients, and friends for life, you see someone you care about their health, and you know, they want to look good. You know, and I don’t mean like, oh, you know, the job and tummy tuck and all this stuff. It’s like, No, you want to feel like you’re accepted. And our looks are part of that will.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And so Docs who are listening to this might think, Okay, that’s all good and fine. I agree with that. But how do you like it? How do you objectively like to systemize? That whole process, like how do you quote, unquote, systemize, and care? And I’ll just give one example of the fact that you know, the fact that when you go out and meet with, let’s just say tattoo artists and tattoo shops, right, you’re applying what you’re just saying, what you just said there, in a very simple and easy way, meaning. One approach might be, Hey, my name is Dr. Chad Woolner, we have this amazing laser, it’s so cool. You guys should send people to us. Right? That’s one way of doing it. And that may or may not land versus your approach is, hey, we think tattoo artists are incredible. We love the work that you guys are doing. We have this amazing laser, we’d love to let you try it for free. If it works for you, and you find that it’s amazing. We just asked you to send people to us and partner with you.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, so it’s far more of a that literally happened in my town, by the way, a doctor bought a laser. It wasn’t an Ericone laser. And I know a doctor, he’s a nice guy, but he sent out a message to all the chiropractors and sent people to me, I just bought this new laser. And he said it was $70,000. And it’s really cool. You should send people to us. That’s exactly why I’m like a poor guy. And but it wasn’t like your way is so much more brilliant is like hey, if you know, he could have said like, hey, chiropractors, there’s a good chance that you may have shoulder pain, you may have back pain, you’re treating a lot of patients you have neck pain, how would you like to come in? And we’ll do free sessions on you because we care about the community instead of his initial approach was, well, that’s kind of a douchey thing. Like why would I? Why would I ever do that? Have my own patients, you can get your own patients, or oh my gosh, this guy actually has some new technology. And he’s actually caring about other chiropractors in the community which would have gone over really well. And you could have built a community that way. How many?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Just out of curiosity, because I want to kind of prove this point. How many tattoo artists have taken you up on that offer to come in and try the laser for free?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Let’s see. So I’m thinking

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: you’re having a difficult time quantifying it because there’s a lot. That’s my point, right?

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: There’s a lot who would say no to that, right?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s exactly right. You know, there’s a really great book written by those who want to learn good marketing stuff. Alex or MOSI? Have you heard of this book? 100 million dollar offers is the name of the book, I haven’t really good, but you would love it anyway. But the whole idea from we’re talking marketing here is that, okay, we’re gonna dive deep into marketing. The best type of offer is one that when you position it, the individual you are offering to would have to say, in their mind, on some level, I would have to be stupid not to take advantage of this offer. Right? And that’s what you did there in talking to a tattoo artist, you know, in that sense, and the offer that you made to them, no strings attached. Just come in and try it for yourself. See if this is effective, if they’re getting tattoos regularly, they would be stupid not to do what’s the worst that can happen for nothing, you know what I mean? I wasted 30 minutes of my day to come over to this gal’s office and try this thing. You know, and so yeah, it’s the reason we’re talking about this, again, kind of bringing this back on so that Doc’s understand those who are listening, you’re talking about principles and ideas. But they’re not just these fluffy theoretical ideas, you put them into implementable systems and actionable steps that you’ve taken. But the key, Docs need to understand is you’re taking action, you’re it requires a little bit of work a little bit.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: And here’s the thing, too, when you have a team, you don’t always have to be the cook in the kitchen, but you have to take action, there has to be movement there has to it just doesn’t happen. I’ve used this analogy before: you could have a loaded ATM machine that requires no pin and it stays full if no one knows it’s there. Yeah, you know, or how it benefits them. And so here’s another thing too, and you know, just dealing with you know, when you hear people seeing people earn the right to present your solution. Then yeah, don’t just puke it on people for the lack of More eloquently I’ve seen it earn the right. So for example, you know for me and this is in the med spas side of what we’re doing, but for me, yes, I’m very busy my schedule for treatments books out close to two months, wow, I’m very busy but I have certain time allocated to consultations, I still do a full hour in-person consultation. Because it often takes that long to really, truly have a real conversation with someone. And people might think, Oh, no way. gotta dig an hour. Okay, but what if I told you that this could be a patient or client that could be worth 10s? or 1000s of dollars in the lifetime of the relationship? Yeah, an hour’s worth it. And we have those people and, you know, someone comes in and they make an appointment thinking they need XYZ, and they really don’t need ABC, you know, but you took the time to hear them and say, Actually, this is what you thought you needed. But this is really truly, you know, what would be your solution. And because you took the time to hear them even in an hour, I mean, it’s not that much time to actually validate someone and hear them in that time, then have, you know, they trust you to the point where they believe you that okay, this does sound like this could be my solution. And again, whether we’re talking skin tightening, or Zerona emeralds, or nutritional support, I mean all that, you know, it doesn’t matter. It honestly doesn’t matter what you’re doing or selling or anything, if you take the time to really just hear someone and just say, Okay, well, I have the solution. And again, remember a lot of times when they’re hearing you, especially when I’m speaking on Emerald and Zerona. And you know, even FX treatments, they’re thinking, well, this really worked for me. And can I afford it? So they may even be half hearing you because they’re stressing, you know, I mean, we’re in and we’re in a society that, you know, stresses over money. I mean, it’s a rat race, right? I mean, money issues are probably one of the number one causes of anxiety doesn’t matter how much you have or don’t have, right? So they’re thinking that and, you know, just reassuring and taking that time with them. Because again, otherwise, it’s like trying to get married on the first day, kiddo,

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I want to focus on one kind of element of what you talked about for docs because I think some might get really hung up on this hour-long consultation idea. Don’t get hung up on the time for just a minute, step back and say it’s whether it’s an hour or not an hour to set that aside, just get rid of that specific timeframe. I can’t remember who said this, but the minute you said that it was like thinking in the back of my mind, I read somewhere recently, so I’m sorry, to whoever it was that posted this really brilliant insight. But they said in business, more business owners need to engage in things that are not scalable. And so often, and especially Andrew and I were constantly talking about scalable scale this and scale this and scale this and do things and automate this and, and delegate this and do this. And those things are definitely important, right systemization and all those different things, but never lose sight of the important heavy lifting that is done through things that aren’t scalable. And what I mean by that is these very intimate, very meaningful, very personal conversations that take place through again, whether it’s an hour, full 60 minutes, or maybe it’s just a very, very focused 10 minutes, you know what I mean? Have one on me and you just one on one, because I have those conversations with patients, I do consults with patients, and they’re typically pretty quick in terms of the time, but I make sure to be fully present with them when I’m there with them so that they know like, I’m not looking elsewhere. I’m literally looking at you giving me 100% of me, I’m not my mind is not elsewhere. I am truly with you. And I’m making sure that my body language shows that by restating the questions that I asked you and the answers that I give you that I’m actively listening, not just hearing. And so, and again, those are things that are not scalable things and yet, those really, or you know, in terms of meeting going out into the community, that’s not typically I mean, you theoretically could delegate that out to other people. But I’m confident that you move the needle a lot further when it’s you being the one going and doing that, you know what I mean? So.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: And human contact is becoming more and more scarce. And yeah, because even you know, Zoom meetings for work, FaceTime, you know, with your kid’s emails, I mean, out So, I mean, so many people, you have no idea how few people they interact with in a day in person. I don’t want to go through the cash register anymore. I pick up my groceries. I, you know, it’s like DoorDash, my food. And I mean that that is like, I mean compounding loneliness. And, you know, and really, and this is something too, you know, I’ve, I share a lot of my little tidbits of information and secrets and things on that glow, or Zerona glow your business page and I’ve been working on inductor stuff knows this, but I’ve been working on a book for a while as well. Not that it’s like I have all this info to bestow.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: But is this a business book? It is a cool title for it.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: It’s musings and ramblings of a serial entrepreneur.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: musings and ramblings of a series of rambling, that’s amazing.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: So and it’s about for one, believing in yourself and just investing in your own dreams enough to do what it takes to make it happen, which, you know, other people benefit from in this case, you know, so it’s really like I said, it’s not like I have some magic formula, but it’s taking the time and being thoughtful and methodical, but, and as I said, Erchonia reached out to me, because, you know, this is some things that you don’t have to reinvent the wheel, go to the page and steal stuff from me because I put it out there for you too. I even make up posts that are verbatim you can copy and paste.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: We just FYI, for those listening, we’ve used a lot of what Jamie has given in that group, in our business. And it’s been very helpful. A lot of very straightforward, simple, yet very profoundly awesome resources. So yeah, I would echo Yeah, join her group, if for those who are listening, who are either thinking about getting into this Arona, or Emerald, or currently do.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Our Instagram and Facebook, glow sculpting spa, I mean, I post a lot. And again, it’s not like we have this secret sauce, you know, and no, it’s just there’s different ways of doing things. As the world is changing, and there is this looming loneliness that so many are experiencing, human connection and contact are so much more important. So that’s where I feel our in-person consultations are huge, and to be honest with you, and not to be braggadocious, or anything, our closing rate is so good that I remember the ones that I don’t close. And then I follow up. You know, because there’s always going to be some time or some you know, and again, it’s not even about being this high pressure, you know.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s so funny because you know, with Andrew and I, we have a business where we consult and work with practitioners, and one of the most frequently asked questions amongst ourselves and explored questions. And it’s a never-ending question, right? Because we’re always seeking more insight, what is the distinction between the docs who are successful and the docs who are not successful? That’s like the common thread that we’re always trying to pull on. Always trying to pull on? And, what we tend to find is the same types of answers that are somewhat unsettling because of the simplicity of the answer as to what it is at face value. People are like, dude, okay, whatever. But like, what we mean by that is like, yeah, it’s obvious when in talking with you, you guys are successful. Because I’m ready for this, like a surprise. It’s because you genuinely care. Like you, it exudes in terms of, you have a very clear sense of purpose and mission with what you’re doing. It’s not really, truly isn’t just about the money. If you’re just about the money, you may make it, and there are some who do that, you know, like they make tons of money. Fantastic, wonderful. Great that there is no problem there. But I’m finding we’re finding, correct me if I’m wrong, Andrew, but the docs who really have success long term, it there’s something intrinsically there with them, where they feel deeply connected to the sense of passion, purpose, and mission, that what they’re doing is deeper than just a transaction, you know, that it’s so much more than that. And that’s what continues to drive and fuel the steps. What were you gonna say? You’re gonna say some?

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: No, yeah, yes, I would agree. 100%. And it’s, I think all docs will say, Yeah, I care. I care, too. I’m a part of that group. But do you really think about the people who didn’t close? Right? Not because you didn’t collect the $3,000 whenever it was, like the care plan, but because they actually had a problem and you weren’t able to? Either help?

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Yeah. Did we miss a solution? Yeah.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. to kind of wrap this up. We started off with how you guys met was, you know, yeah, Jamie wasn’t a patient right? That wasn’t like a pain. impatient like, all right, I got my kind of my case value out of that patient, which sometimes we think of it’s No, it wasn’t appropriate patient but you still followed up and sent magazines to.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: The House did she pay you for the get well cards and all the cupcakes and all that stuff she paid for that she owes you need to collect on that?

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: When you scratch the surface of that a little bit, and I think if people were to meet you, Jamie, they would see like, Oh, this is a tenacious entrepreneur, which you are and all that stuff. But if you scratch the surface a little bit, there’s a meaning behind that. And, that’s yeah, the common thread we’re talking about. As there’s some there’s something more substantial there. And if you can tap into that, and sometimes it takes Doc’s a while to figure that out, it can be years before they figure out in practice what that really is, but oftentimes people will find it too and if you lean into that, then you have a lot of motivation to work through situations like COVID or to work through like what do we do?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And that’s what you’ll find. Again, we talked with Steve Shanks in an interview earlier. And that’s the thing that you’ll find I think that’s what gravitated I’m guessing to a large extent, what gravitated you to both of you Dr. Stephanie and Jamie to Erchonia is this very strong sense of mission and purpose that they have. We were telling Steve, there’s a much cheaper, faster, easier way to make money in the light and laser space. You could totally know what I mean. Just cut corners and, you know, sell subpar and I shouldn’t even say subpar like you’re but I mean, you just do the research. Yeah, just skip the research. You know, it’s already been done. That’s fine to skip the research reservation.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Steve has actually been to our office animal so we were able to have some on one time with him. And you know, he is still excited over what he’s doing. Yes. And passion. And that’s what keeps you, it’s almost burnout-proof. And yeah, there are times when you’re like, I need a vacation or I need a day off. That’s different from feeling dread of what you’re doing every day. And people can feel that. Oh, totally. Oh, yeah. So I feel like you know, those of us who truly get to do something we’re passionate about were the lucky ones in life that that truly is the secret to a happy life.

 

 Dr. Chad Woolner: No Passion and Purpose. Yeah, absolutely. Well, Dr. Stephanie, and Jamie, this has been a ton of fun. Super fun. We appreciate you guys taking the time to be here with us on this episode. We’ve talked about a lot. It’s been fantastic.

 

Dr. Jamie Thayer: Thank you so much. Both of you and Dr. Steph, my amazing partner and bestie. And yeah, it’s great.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  You guys have a really incredible dynamic. It’s very obvious being with you and talking with you as to why you guys have been so successful and why you will continue. And for me what’s inspiring about that is knowing that success is not just a monetary figure, but there are a lot of men and women out there who are being changed to are really having their lives impacted families impacted generations impacted as grandiose as that might sound. That’s what’s happening. And that’s what’s so exciting and cool and we appreciate all that you guys are doing so absolutely incredible. So yeah. Everybody listening, we hope that this has been really valuable for you. We hope that you’ve had a lot of fun on this episode with us and we’re looking forward to lots more. Thanks for listening, and we’ll chat with you guys on the next episode. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show, be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as the Erchonia e-community where you can access free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.

 

About The Guest(s):

Dr. Stephanie Wautier is a chiropractor and the co-owner of Glow Sculpting Spa. She runs her own clinic, Watch Your Wellness Chiropractic and Massage, offering a range of chiropractic and massage therapies. Her background is deeply rooted in chiropractic care, with a focus on integrating technology like laser therapy into traditional treatments.

Jamie Thayer is an exercise physiologist, medical laser specialist, and serial entrepreneur with a passion for health and wellness. She is the co-owner of Glow Sculpting Spa and owns an Anytime Fitness franchise. Jamie has extensive experience in personal training, and medical wellness, and is a recognized social media influencer and marketing expert.

Summary:

Episode 32 of The Laser Light Show, hosted by Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells, featured guests Dr. Stephanie Wautier and Jamie Thayer. This episode delved into the power of laser therapy, their individual journeys in healthcare and wellness, and the story behind their successful partnership in Glow Sculpting Spa. They discussed the impact of laser therapy in medical treatments, their business model, marketing strategies, and the importance of personal connections in healthcare.

Key Takeaways:

  • Laser Therapy’s Impact: Laser therapy, particularly from Erchonia, has shown significant benefits in treating a range of health issues, earning the most FDA clearances in the field.
  • The Power of Partnership: Jamie Thayer and Dr. Stephanie Wautier highlighted the strength found in their partnership, combining expertise in chiropractic care, wellness, and marketing to build a successful business.
  • Community Engagement: Actively engaging with the community and building relationships, such as with local tattoo artists, has been crucial in their business model.
  • Importance of Personal Connection: Offering personal consultations and genuinely caring about clients’ well-being has been a cornerstone of their success.
  • Adaptation and Growth: Their story emphasizes adapting to challenges, like COVID-19, and using such times for growth and learning.

Quotes:

  • If you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together.” is an African proverb referenced by Dr. Chad Woolner, underlining the value of their partnership
  • We all want three things in life: to be important, to feel better, and to look better.” – Jamie Thayer, summarizing the core needs of their business addresses.
  • “There’s nothing that’s gonna get her down. Nothing. Like no thing on this earth.” – Dr. Stephanie Wautier about Jamie Thayer, highlighting her resilience.

Episode #31: From NHS to Aesthetics & Wellness with Dr. Natalie Geary

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here, alongside Dr. Andrew Wells. In today’s episode of The Laser Light Show, we’re thrilled to be interviewing Dr. Natalie Geary, who joins us all the way from the UK. So, let’s dive in. 

Transcript

Speakers: 

Dr. Andrew Wells

Dr. Chad Woolner

Dr. Natalie Geary

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show. 

 

Explore the transformative benefits of Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for athletes in our blog, How Laser Therapy Helps Athletes Physically and Mentally. Learn how LLLT can accelerate recovery, reduce pain, and enhance mental clarity. Dive into the world of laser therapy now!

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Alright, welcome to the show, everyone, and a huge welcome all the way from the UK, Dr. Natalie Geary. Thank you so much for being here with us.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Oh, thank you for inviting me. This is a big honor, and I’m very excited.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So tell us a little bit about yourself. This is what’s kind of fun about these podcasts; we sometimes get chatting before the podcast starts, capturing some of the magic of the initial introduction. This episode is one of those instances where we briefly met, talked for about 30 seconds, and shook hands in the hall. So, I don’t know anything about you yet. We’re going to capture that initial introduction now. Tell us who you are and a little bit about yourself.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: So, I’m a doctor from the UK. Initially, my career plan was to join the NHS, our National Health Service. However, about two years in, I realized the NHS wasn’t the right fit for me. It was actually on my mother’s suggestion—though she had her own reasons—that I considered becoming a cosmetic doctor. And that’s exactly what I did. For the past 15 years, I’ve specialized in Botox, fillers, and other injectables, while also growing a business around it. More recently, I’ve felt a strong desire to expand my professional focus towards health and wellness, an area I’m genuinely passionate about. I was always searching for a way to evolve into the doctor I aspired to be. That search led me to the world of Erchonia and laser treatments.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Fantastic. Just curious, what about the NHS? Did you not enjoy pursuing your career?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Well, Dr. Andrew, that’s a whole other podcast. But I think briefly, the culture didn’t suit me. It wasn’t very nurturing, and it probably still isn’t. I found it quite bullying, and I just felt like a fish out of water. I knew I needed something more and probably more support. I didn’t feel like there was any, so it just didn’t bode well for me. There are parts of the NHS that are amazing, so I’m not criticizing our amazing NHS. But trying to be a cog in that enormous machine just didn’t sit well with me. Yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, if I’m understanding you correctly, you’re looking for a bit more autonomy and freedom to do things your way. Is that correct? Would that be fair to say? Yeah,

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: I think it’s obvious that I’ve embarked on the entrepreneur’s journey, which isn’t for everyone, but it suits me. Fundamentally, I could see aspects of the NHS that troubled me greatly—there’s a lot of inefficiency and waste, which is common in any large corporation. That bothered me deeply. It reached a point where I realized I just couldn’t work in that environment.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it’s got to be somewhat of a double-edged sword. It’s scary in a situation where you’re leaping out into the private sector, especially when you’ve got this massive kind of net or umbrella if you will, that you’re not exactly competing against because it’s a completely different realm. Yet, I would assume some people might perceive it as, “How can you compete with free healthcare?” Right? You know, in terms of your jumping off, and you’re going to have people pay you cash when they could rely on the NHS. But I know well enough that you’re offering something completely different, something that more than likely isn’t offered under the NHS umbrella, correct? Yeah

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: That’s absolutely true. You know, like most government provisions and health systems, it’s underfunded. Yeah, so the idea that anybody was going to get their Botox and fillers through the NHS was pretty slim; it wasn’t competing in that sense. But trying to attract really good talent has been difficult because so many doctors are very committed to the NHS. It’s a very stable employment environment, you know, you do have a job for life. It’s one of the few places where you probably still have a job for life. And there’s a lot of security that comes with that. So, interestingly, the NHS has made trying to recruit doctors out of it really expensive because they now know they can do locum work and night shifts, and earn a really good amount of money. Then trying to get them to come into something like a more commercial medical environment where you have to work to get your patients and retain them and do all of those things… Yeah, it has made it quite tricky at times to really encourage the talent out. Not that I would encourage talent out of the NHS, but trying to get doctors to come to work for you is not always easy.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. Much of this boils down to self-awareness and whether you’re the entrepreneurial type. Some people are, and some aren’t. Those who aren’t may gravitate toward wanting or needing a secure paycheck. That’s where they’re likely to head. However, by clearly planting your flag and stating, ‘This is what I’m going to do,’ positively, you’ll attract the right type of people. It might be a bit of a challenge, I’d guess, but worth it because the individuals are drawn to your team and the cause will be the right fit. They’ll identify with the desire or need for more adventure and opportunity, rather than just a paycheck. No offense to those who seek the security of a paycheck—I understand that people have different needs and motivations. What you’re describing sounds similar to experiences we’ve had. You’re either more risk-tolerant, entrepreneurial, and visionary, or you’re someone who needs security and stability.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah, in fact, there’s a model in the UK where, as you become more established, you can have your NHS practice. Especially as a consultant, you have the opportunity to explore other areas of medicine that might be of great interest to you. So, many GPs, anesthetists, and professionals from various medical fields are moving into cosmetic medicine, knowing they have the stability of working three to four days a week within the NHS.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, what lasers are you using right now? And what purposes are they serving for you?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: I began my laser journey with the Emeraude, primarily because my extensive background in athletics made a fat loss laser an excellent addition to my clinic. We had previously explored body sculpting with CoolSculpting and achieved great results. The arrival of the Emerald was exciting; its approach is completely different from CoolSculpting, offering me a new avenue to assist my patients in focusing on their long-term health and wellness.

So, starting with the Emeraude, I quickly grew fond of the lasers, especially the EV RLS, which are handheld devices. These were easily integrated into our treatments with the Emeraude. Beyond the technical aspects, there’s a personal motivation driving many of us in the medical field. We all know someone struggling with health issues. The VRL could potentially aid my daughter, who has ADHD, and my father, who suffers from industrial asthma. My mother, dealing with tremors, also comes to mind. Therefore, we expanded our toolkit to include the EV RLS.

Following this, we acquired the effects laser, aimed specifically at alleviating pain. This expansion in our services not only enhances our ability to treat physical conditions but also supports our commitment to improving the overall well-being of our patients and their families.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, so you mentioned, Dr. Geary, that you initially delved into aesthetics, and now you’re more interested in the health and wellness space. I suppose one could argue that aesthetics is part of that. But what exactly is your interest in health? Where does it stem from, and what types of conditions are you aiming to address with your patients?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: So, I think again, I’m just being totally honest, my journey into health really was because probably I was perimenopause or not sleeping very well. felt overwhelmed, pretty stressed and I felt surely there’s got to be something else out there for me. And I think I’ve been doing esthetics, you know, literally just injectables for long enough to know, really good. I do a great job for people, but I don’t feel stretched anymore. And then I started looking into functional medicine. And I came to America for several conferences, and it was a real life changer for me. Because initially, I was going just for me, I thought, I didn’t even need to practice this in my clinic, I just needed to know, should I be eating better? Should I be exercising more? And that’s how it all started. For me. It was a very personal and probably quite selfish journey that I was on. And also I’ve got two young children, and what can I do for my family? How am I going to make sure that in this day and age, we can be as healthy as we possibly can? So that’s how it started. And then obviously, you start learning all of these things. And then of course, I talked to everybody, my, all my patients, I’d like to think I’m not just a botox doctor, we will talk about hormones, sleep and stress, and all of the things that are affecting everybody. And I’d be saying, Oh, you try this, and have you thought about that? And this could be a great supplement for you to try. But I wasn’t being commercial about any of it. But I didn’t want to be commercial about any of it. At that point, I just wanted to kind of learn my knowledge and then excitedly share it.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: It seems, I would say, not only common but also the vast majority of journeys that you hear about in the overarching health and wellness space, not so much. Well, and I’m sure there are exceptions; I shouldn’t paint it like that. But it’s far more common in chiropractic and functional medicine, in the entire health and wellness space, for many people to have some sort of a very deeply personal story that starts them on their journey. And I’m sure, again, in medicine, you hear that, but you also hear the story of ‘I became a doctor because I wanted to become a doctor.’ No disrespect or offense to anyone, but sometimes there is a certain attraction to that because of the title, or because parents want it. You hear these stories, or at least you see them in the movies, right? The parents who wanted their child to become a doctor, whether the child wanted to be a doctor or not, they’re going to be a doctor, right? So, your story is kind of interesting in that here, you started in this conventional space and then, through your journey, experienced what we might call a reawakening or excitement in terms of mission, personal purpose, and passion.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah. Like many of us when we were young, I was incredibly idealistic. I thought I’d be a great doctor because I love people, I want to help them, and I’m very caring. All these reasons that you think would make you a great doctor turned out not to necessarily mean you’ll be one. That’s probably why I didn’t fit in with the NHS; I just wasn’t a good fit at that moment in time. I suppose there was a massive part of me that thought, ‘Oh my gosh, I’ve made a huge mistake. I don’t want to be a doctor. This is awful.’ And I felt like that for a long time. But that’s why functional medicine had to be a personal journey for me. I was thinking, ‘Well, I don’t ever need to practice this, but I can find out for myself. What can I eat? How can I be healthier?’ That was what I was aiming for. So, yes, I think I started my career in medicine for all the wrong reasons. I don’t want to discourage anyone. If you’re thinking, ‘But I care about people, and I think I’d make a great doctor,’ we do need all those qualities. Sure. But sometimes, having those qualities and trying to fit into what can be a very uncaring, harsh environment is challenging.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think the key distinction is this: It’s not that those characteristics or qualities would make a bad doctor. No, those would make me an amazing doctor. It’s that those characteristics and qualities are incongruent with the current system, the way the current system operates. The UK system is probably, in many respects, similar, although I’m sure there are differences. However, the mainstream conventional medical system is broken. You know, it’s very reactive. And so, the problem is that those ideas, or again, those characteristics we’re talking about, don’t fit well into that system because it’s a fairly harsh and cold environment as you mentioned. It’s a difficult environment. Andrew and I were discussing this earlier. I feel—and I could be wrong, maybe that’s just my perception—but I feel like there’s this kind of reawakening of people wanting to go back to the way that doctor-patient relationships used to be. Like the old-timey docs, the town doc, you know, where they would carry their bag of tools and have answers for people. They were it, you know, with all of these issues.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Just as a doctor cares for people in their community—like those you see at church or encounter at the grocery store, yes, or even at the general store—we are motivated by a need to help people.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yes, and genuinely trying to solve their problems without being constrained by external forces that interfere with that effort. It seems to me there’s a kind of reawakening, a revival if you will, where many physicians, medical doctors, chiropractors, and acupuncturists all want to return to that simpler model if that makes sense. Yeah.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: I think that’s probably what drove me to aesthetic medicine. I was able to give each person 30 to 45 minutes of my time. It doesn’t take that long to do some small injections. And when we got busy, I never cut the time short to make more money because the joy for me always came from knowing my patient. I wanted to know things like, did your son get into college? Did your daughter pass her driving test? Did you get the promotion? Are you moving to a new place? Those are the bits that I love; it was that human connection. And knowing more about my patients meant I could serve them better. That’s why I never cut my time short, although some of my colleagues did. But I think it was to their detriment because they became kind of burnt out, frazzled, and disillusioned. It was kind of stepping back into the way of working in the NHS. Whereas, I perceived my time with my patients because that’s what I wanted. I wanted that connection with them. So, I can see amazing changes ahead for us as doctors and healthcare providers. You’re right. People need that connection and community, and I’m sure that’s the direction medicine is heading.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. Now more than ever, for sure. So, maybe you can tell us some cool stories. How long have you been using the EBarrels? You started with the Emerald, right? How many years have you had that? And then, how long have you had the EPRs?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Well, we were one of the first clinics in the UK to get the Emerald. It only really appeared, I think, within the last two years. Okay, yeah. So, yeah, but we were, I think, the second clinic to get on board with it. Just because I loved the ethos behind it. I love the fact that it didn’t kill a fat cell, and when you’re done with your functional medicine, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah. And of course, once I got started, and then I was talking to other people about all the other amazing things you could do with a laser, I got just super excited and basically couldn’t stop myself. I was like the kid in the candy store, ‘Oh, have those, I’ll have one of those.’ And then I can help people do that. Yeah, so yeah, I’ve probably got a bit ahead of myself, really, but I think it’s this longing to help people for sure. You know, I will see somebody for Botox, and they’ll tell me they’ve got a bad shoulder, and why not just jump into my red laser? And of course, I don’t charge them. Here’s me telling you what an entrepreneur is, right?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s all right. So, tell us some of the cool stories, some of the cool things that you’ve seen.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Okay, I think one of my favorite stories involves a woman who tried the Emerald laser for fat loss and was seeing great results. About five or six weeks into her treatment, one of my therapists mentioned to her, “Did you know that the Emerald laser isn’t just for fat loss? It has several other benefits, including pain relief.” The woman was intrigued and shared that she had been dealing with sciatica for a long time, which significantly affected her daily activities. She had to modify her exercise routines and avoid stairs due to the pain. However, she noticed that she hadn’t experienced any sciatica symptoms since starting her sessions with the Emerald laser. I initially thought that the laser treatments might be temporarily easing her symptoms. But when I saw her months later and inquired about her sciatica, she excitedly told me it hadn’t returned. She even mentioned taking a fall during a walking holiday and fearing the sciatica would flare up again, but it didn’t. She was perfectly fine, which was truly astonishing.

Another story that stands out to me involves one of my employees who suffers from Crohn’s disease. This condition severely impacted her life, at its worst requiring up to thirty bathroom visits a day, along with significant dietary and lifestyle changes. She had to stop her medication almost a year ago due to an urgent call from her doctor about dangerously low white blood cell counts. At that point, I suggested she try using lasers for relief. After consulting with Dr. Rob Silverman on the best approach, given our access to various lasers, we followed his advice. My employee, having easy access to our treatments, used the Emerald laser almost daily. Within a year, the improvement in her symptoms was remarkable. She now goes to the bathroom like anyone else would.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, were you using a combination of the Emerald effects and the EBRL?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Well, to start with, we were using a bit of everything because we weren’t sure. Okay. And Dr. Rob said, “Actually, just go on the Emerald.” Okay. So, it’s just been Emerald, and it suits her because it’s hers, you know. She’ll use it in her lunch hour. It’s very relaxing and lovely. But not only was she getting symptomatic relief when she went back to the doctor, the doctor basically was kind of like, “Well, you know, right. You’re so skeptical, right?” And, of course, that’s great. But let’s have a look at what’s going on. So, he started, and he did an MRI and a colonoscopy. Both came back with no active disease. Wow. Yeah. And then, so then, he was saying, “Well, I still think you need to go on this IV drip and do whatever.” And she’s like, “I don’t want to. I feel great. I can literally eat what I want. I’m living the way I want to live. Why change anything?” Yeah. And, you know, she’s a very switched-on person. So, she said, “Tell you what, because he was saying, ‘Well, actually, it doesn’t surprise me that this is where you are at because of all the medications that you were on.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s what did it. Yeah

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: And she rightly pressed him on this point. She asked, ‘But what if it wasn’t the medication? What if it’s the lasers that I’m using? Can we please re-examine this in a few months?’ Fortunately, that wonderful doctor agreed. So, in a few months, we’re going to observe as she undergoes more colonoscopies and MRIs, which is significant because they give her terrible side effects. She’s going to endure these procedures, and we’re very hopeful that there will still be no active disease. At that point, we might start having a meaningful conversation about whether there is any role for laser treatment in addressing the wars against more chronic diseases like Crohn’s, which was so life-altering.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I’ve got a friend of mine. And I’ve just seen, you know, just through social media, what he’s been pretty open about sharing. And it’s horrific. I mean, it really is. It impacts life in a very negative way. I mean, yeah. So the fact that you were able to get that kind of result, or that she was able to get that kind of result, is incredible. Yeah

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: It’s unbelievably exciting. But, you know, we all have to put our medical hats back on and not get carried away. Sure. Yeah, totally. But, you know, I just love having this technology in my clinic. I love the fact that I can help someone with a bad back or a bad knee. And, you know, I am an aesthetic doctor, not a chiropractor, osteopath, or anyone with any real experience in dealing with chronic pain. And I don’t do any manipulations. But I say to them, ‘Look, if it’s really bad, just lie under my laser for, you know, 20 minutes and see.’ And almost invariably, everyone gets back up and says, ‘You know what, that feels so much better. I can walk down the stairs; before, I was kind of hopping up and hopping back down again.’ So, I see it pretty much every day. And this is why I just love all this technology. Because I think, goodness me, this is something that works with our bodies to help us heal ourselves better rather than handing out medications.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Do you feel compelled now, what a nice story, to be able to help someone on your team with such a severe issue. Do you feel compelled now to help other people with Crohn’s? Are you seeking that out?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Do you know what? We’re not certain, and I think there’s a reticence on my part because we don’t have empirical proof. What I have is an anecdote that for one person, it did something amazing. And you have to be really careful not to use this as a claim we can’t support. We can’t say, ‘Oh, this has happened,’ and potentially engage in false advertising

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So you haven’t done a TV ad claiming to cure Crohn’s.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: around London, look what I did. 

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: I know. There’s a massive part of you that wants to do that. Because, wow, look what we did. Because it’s so exciting. But, you know, we don’t have the data behind it.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think that Erchonia would be very interesting. I know they’re already overwhelmed with studies right now, but it would be a really cool project to look into. And maybe even consider a broader umbrella, not just Crohn’s, but also other types of colitis-related issues. That would be interesting because, unfortunately, these are very common problems. I imagine that designing such studies could be done quite effectively. So, my thoughts are mainly about the aspects of placebo control, blinding, and so on, but, yes, that’s what I’m thinking.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: I think so. I mentioned this to Erchonia because I was highly excited. And actually, it was a really interesting conversation that we had. One of the founders kind of said to me, ‘That’s great, Natalie. But every week, somebody tells me about something amazing they’ve done with this laser,’ he says, ‘you know, for us to do a proper study, it’s about a million dollars per study. And so he’s like, ‘Well, you know, it’s wonderful if you’ve got that, but I could tell you about at least 20 other things that we should probably be looking at.’ So, of course, I understand that. You’ve got to go where you think you’re going to get your FDA approval from, at the end of the day, or where you’re going to make the most effective commitment, right? The most benefit? Yeah, so I do understand the issue. But what a wonderful issue to have.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: The interesting, unique perspective that Andrew and I have is that we talk with clinical experts, doctors, and researchers, and see a spectrum of viewpoints. Additionally, we are entrepreneurs, business owners, and marketers ourselves, which gives us a unique perspective. One thing I’ve shared before, and I want to preface my next point by saying I don’t want it to be misconstrued as misleading in any way, is that the two most compelling forms of evidence for the community at large are scientific research—which is the gold standard, high-level research—and personal testimonials and stories. For example, when we do presentations at my clinic about lasers, I talk, and then we show video after video of what we call ‘one treatment challenge’ of patients who came in with pain in their shoulders, knees, feet, backs, etc. We show their experiences with the laser treatment and ask, ‘How do you feel now?’ This approach is very compelling.

When it comes to sharing stories, you may not have the resources to conduct a double-blind placebo-controlled study, but you can certainly capture a patient’s testimonial. It depends on the individual doctor. Some might claim they can cure Crohn’s disease, which, of course, is not advisable. However, there might be doctors like you who, if they shared a patient’s success story on social media or elsewhere (though I’m not sure about the regulations in England, where they might clamp down on such claims), and if a patient with Crohn’s disease saw it and came in asking if the Emerald laser could help their condition, I assume your response would be, ‘I don’t know, but it wouldn’t hurt to try.’ That’s what I assume your approach would be.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Absolutely. That’s it. Yeah, exactly. I want to make it absolutely clear that there is no medical evidence suggesting that this laser will work. However, we’ve treated one person, and they experienced amazing results. Yeah, if you’re willing to give it a go. And I think another fantastic aspect of the laser is that I can confidently say there are no known side effects.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s the worst that can happen? The only thing, the worst-case scenario, is nothing really changes. Yeah, that’s worse. Well, actually, I think I shouldn’t even say that. The worst-case scenario is you lose a little bit of belly fat because we know it’ll do that. Yes, you know, so, hey, your Crohn’s may not improve or whatever, but at least you’re going to lose a few inches off the waistline, which I’m sure everybody could appreciate.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Your sciatica will go away as well.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah, that was coming. will be if that doctor Yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: But no, that’s really cool. You know, the fact that you’ve already accomplished that is what I find truly exciting. It’s been a two-year period, right?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah, I think we’ve had it. I think we’ve had it for about two years. You know, how COVID just skews everything.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s a time warp now. Yeah, almost like two years. But the fact that you’ve already witnessed so many incredibly exciting stories… I feel the same. You think, ‘How many more lasers can we acquire?’ because you recognize the significant difference they make as a powerful tool for our patients.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: I do think, though, one of the issues, especially maybe in the UK market, is there’s a healthy dose of skepticism. Sure, it’s really hard for you to say, “Oh, by the way, I’ve got this amazing laser. And I know you’ve been going to see your physio, having massages, and trying all these other things for months. Why don’t you just try my laser? You’ll probably see an effect after about five minutes, and it doesn’t even feel like anything is happening.” And they just look at you, which is why I end up giving a lot of treatment away for free. Because I’m not quite sure how else I can convince you. Right?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, well, and that’s the beautiful thing that I’ve seen in my own clinic. And that’s exactly what I do. I give them one treatment. I would say 99.9% of the patients that come in, we let them try it for free once. Yeah, because then exactly that, like it’s like, hey, and I’m confident enough in that, that I know that they’ll see some type of improvement, because the vast majority of people will see some type of improvement in one visit. And I think that’s very comforting, reassuring, and very fair to patients, you know, when you approach it that way, because so many times with other therapies that we’ve had at our clinic. Because we know that with pain, in general, we’ll just use pain as the example. It takes time, you know, with most things for them to see. And what patients don’t want to hear, unfortunately, is exactly that. And so therefore, with other therapies where it’s like, you know, we need to give this, you know, you know, 10-12 tries before we see whether or not it’s working or not, and so it’s yet again, one more thing that they have to kind of put faith into, and that’s the last thing in the world, people want us to put faith in something, you know, that just does not, I think, instill a lot of confidence. Whereas with this, it’s been really cool because we’re like, you know, you don’t have to believe in it. You just try it once. See if it does anything. And if it does awesome, then that’s a good indicator that we’re going to be able to help you if it doesn’t, then hey, worse, you wasted 15-20 minutes of your life. Okay. Yeah, you know, so that’s powerful.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: So, Dr. Geary, you mentioned earlier that you found aesthetics amazing, but not really stretching you professionally. What do you envision for your career over the next 5 to 10 years? Where do you see yourself being stretched in your profession and helping people? 

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: So I believe that having the Emerald laser, which is intended to assist with fat loss, would be beneficial.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Crohn’s and sciatica

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Yeah, so basically, by having our fat loss laser, because I’m a doctor and medical professional, the idea that you just line up to a laser and shed your fat, I can kind of think, ‘Yeah, that’s great.’ But, you know, if you’re going to get fitter and healthier, we’ve got to add things into this. I’m definitely here to help you, but I’ve also got to ensure that you’re going to get fitter and healthier for the rest of your life, not just for my 10-week program, and then potentially resell it to you again next year. That’s just not interesting. So, I’ve created this program called Dr. Go Figure. It utilizes the Emerald laser to aid in fat loss. Then we incorporate lymphatic drainage because we know we need to get the body moving in order to release fat, metabolize it, and excrete it. We also include an exercise element, utilizing EMS, which stands for electro muscle stimulation. With this method, clients wear a suit, and we externally stimulate their muscles, providing a full body workout in just 20 minutes. I chose this because I knew my target demographic might not necessarily want to go to a gym or enjoy traditional exercise. So, I thought, ‘How can I achieve the best results possible in the shortest amount of time in a one-on-one environment?’ That’s where EMS comes in. Another crucial aspect is education. We explain to people how their bodies work and what does and doesn’t work for our bodies. I think it’s crucial because most people just don’t know. They’re unaware of how hormones can affect their weight or how a poor night’s sleep or working night shifts can impact their weight. There are all these things that people aren’t aware of. So, I’ve also created a podcast, currently exclusive to my Dr. Go Figure patients, which consolidates all of these elements. It’s aimed at helping individuals live a healthier, more active, and happier life.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s the name of your podcast?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Well, as I said, it’s purely for my doctor. Go figure. But the name of the program is Dr. Go Figure. So in the next 5 to 10 years, I actually want to push Dr. Go Figure. Definitely nationwide in the UK, I’d love to come to America. But that’s going to take some partnerships, if anyone’s listening. Let me know because then yeah, basically I’d love to see this, getting out there and creating a lot more impact than I can personally do myself.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Are you noticing that? Because this has been, I think, a fairly common theme for us: we’re discovering that patients want more education and information than we assumed they did.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: I think we’re all very accustomed now, aren’t we, to opting for podcasts over thumping tunes while at the gym or during other moments such as dropping off our children at school or having a spare half-hour before work. We’ve grown accustomed to having vast amounts of information readily available to us. Education delivery has become increasingly accessible. In my podcast, I strive to explain the workings of hormones in a layman’s terms, enabling listeners to understand the effects of their food choices on their bodies, particularly in relation to insulin levels. It seems there’s an increasing appetite for such content, or perhaps we’ve simply made it more accessible.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think it is more. I really do. I think it’s a combination of accessibility. But I also think that over time, I’ve noticed— and again, this could just be my own opinion, but I don’t think it is— a collective shift happening where patients are seeking to consume more in-depth information. One surprising aspect of this podcast is the number of patients we’ve heard from, thanks to various guests we’ve interviewed. They’ve mentioned receiving calls from patients saying, “Hey, I heard you on The Laser Light Show.” And we’re like, “That’s kind of cool. You know, that’s really cool.” What I’ve discovered in my own clinic is that instead of me attempting to explain things, I direct patients to listen to Dr. Brandon Brock, Trevor Berry, or Mark Funderlich. They do a much better job. Just check out episode number whatever, you know? And it just works a lot better that way. So I’m finding that patients are truly seeking more education and information to delve into. It must be enjoyable for you to be involved in teaching in that capacity. Because I imagine it helps fulfill the role you initially envisioned, wanting to be that type of doctor for your patients, you know?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: No, it definitely does. And it’s given me that outlet, you know, for functional medicine, which I kept to myself. All of a sudden, I’m like, well, actually, I can tell people about how this could help them if we’re trying to help them lose weight. Yeah. So no, it’s been really good, fun, and definitely given my career a new lease on life.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome. Absolutely incredible. We certainly appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to be here with us and share this all the way from the UK. How long? How much longer are you going to be here in the States?

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Oh, I’ve got to go home. I think it’s tomorrow night. Okay, I think I’m doing a presentation later. And I’m hoping there’s going to be a bit of time around the pool.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, there you go. Fantastic. Anything else you want to say, Doctor?

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Thank you for being on the show. It’s great having you, and thanks for your insights. Hopefully, we’ll have you on the podcast again in the future.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: Oh, I would love that.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Hopefully the next one will be in English. We’ve been meeting so many people from the UK. I’m thinking, we’re trying to build our friends network, so that we can have all of our tours lined up. That way, everybody can take us around and show us all the sights in the UK.

 

Dr. Natalie Geary: So, you’re very welcome to come to us. We’re in Weybridge, not far from London and very close to Henry the Eight’s home, Hampton Court Palace.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Very cool.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That sounds amazing. Alright then. Thank you again so much. We appreciate it. To everyone listening, thank you for being here for this fantastic episode. And yeah, we’ll share more with you on the next one. Talk to you later. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research news, and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access additional resources, including advanced training and business tools for free. Again, thanks for listening, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.

 

About The Guest(s):

Dr. Natalie Geary is a UK-based doctor with over 15 years of experience in cosmetic medicine, specializing in Botox and fillers. Initially planning to join the NHS, she shifted towards aesthetics and wellness, driven by a passion for patient-centered care and the therapeutic applications of laser technology. Her approach combines clinical expertise with a deep commitment to improving patients’ overall well-being, highlighted by her development of health and wellness programs that integrate advanced laser treatments with holistic health practices.

Episode Summary:

In Episode #31 of The Laser Light Show, Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells interview Dr. Natalie Geary, a UK-based doctor transitioning from the National Health Service (NHS) to the field of aesthetics and wellness. Dr. Geary discusses her journey from feeling misplaced within the NHS to finding her calling in cosmetic medicine and later expanding her focus toward holistic health and wellness. She emphasizes the importance of personal connections with patients and the transformative impact of laser therapy, not only for aesthetic purposes but also for treating various health conditions.

Key Takeaways:

  • Transition from NHS to Aesthetics: Dr. Geary’s career shift was motivated by her desire for a more nurturing environment and autonomy, leading her to specialize in Botox, fillers, and later wellness.
  • Laser Therapy: She discusses the significant role of laser therapy in her practice, particularly the Erchonia lasers, which she uses for fat loss, pain relief, and potentially aiding conditions like ADHD, asthma, and tremors.
  • Patient-Centric Approach: Dr. Geary values the personal connection with her patients, dedicating time to understand their lives beyond medical concerns, which she believes enhances the care she provides.
  • Health and Wellness Focus: Her health journey was personally motivated, leading her to functional medicine and a holistic approach to patient care, incorporating education on lifestyle, hormones, and nutrition.

Quotes:

I think it’s obvious that I’ve embarked on the entrepreneur’s journey, which isn’t for everyone, but it suits me.” – Dr. Natalie Geary

Episode #30: Founder of Apex Brain Centers, Dr. Michael Trayford

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells and on this episode of The Laser Light Show, we have the privilege of being here with Dr. Michael Trayford, all the way from Asheville, North Carolina. We are super excited to talk to him. He is doing some cool stuff. And so yeah, let’s get into it. 

Transcript

Speakers: 

Dr. Andrew Wells

Dr. Chad Woolner

Dr. Michael Trayford

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show. 

 

Explore the transformative benefits of Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for athletes in our blog, How Laser Therapy Helps Athletes Physically and Mentally. Learn how LLLT can accelerate recovery, reduce pain, and enhance mental clarity. Dive into the world of laser therapy now!

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Welcome to the show everybody. We are super excited to have Dr. Michael Trayford with us. Dr. Michael, thanks for being here with us.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Thanks so much, fellas. I appreciate it. I love that intro too, because I’ve seen more than a few laser light shows.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Did you? That’s amazing.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: That is Hayden Planetarium in New York.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay, yeah, I think you’re the first person to ever make that connection. They’re like, “That’s a laser,” like, that intro was very real because laser light shows were a big part of my teenage years. We would go to all the Metallica shows that my parents, my parents—I can still, to this day, remember—they took me to the Beatles’ “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band” shows. What they do is they take the whole album and just play it from start to finish. They’ll queue up lasers, and then, like, for “Sgt. Pepper’s Lonely Hearts Club Band,” they’ll have an image in lasers of a guy drumming and a whole band marching, along with all sorts of cool images. Then they’ll blow the fog machine in, and it’s impressive. Really cool.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells:  When I was a little guy, I went to one of those events, and only afterward did I realize that you were supposed to be on drugs to fully enjoy it.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Just gonna say, I was probably one of the few who weren’t stoned while there because, you know, I never realized that someone would just say you don’t need to be on drugs to enjoy it. And to this day, you don’t need drugs to benefit from laser therapy either.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: whether you’re a young man or a young woman, listen here: don’t do drugs.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: This is our PSA regarding drug awareness. Dr. Michael, you’re achieving remarkable outcomes in North Carolina. Please correct me if I’m mistaken, but you are a chiropractor and a functional neurologist, specializing in traumatic brain injuries as well as neurodegenerative and neurodevelopmental disorders, among others.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: I am a board-certified chiropractic neurologist and also board-certified in Neurofeedback. We can discuss EEG neurofeedback; however, my primary focus is on trauma and traumatic brain injury, covering the whole spectrum from concussions to anoxic and diffuse axonal injuries, including vegetative states. I specialize in brain injuries, with some attention to spinal cord injuries and conditions, and delve into cognitive impairment, learning, and behavioral issues as well.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And how long have you been using lasers in your practice?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Lasers? I would say probably about seven or eight years.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And when did you go through the neurology training?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: That was what I went through during school, during chiropractic college when they weren’t giving credits for that. So, I was just attending the courses because I loved them. As if I didn’t have enough to do, taking 25 to 30 credits a semester, I was trying to take neurology courses every weekend. And then, finally, right after school, I did my three years’ worth, and so I’ve been doing this for probably the better part of the last 25 years.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: It almost makes more sense to me to do it that way. Just because you’re already in that mode of learning. You’ve already got momentum on your side. You know, where your brain is already in that “feed me” type of mode.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: It helped give me a lot of answers to what I wasn’t understanding in chiropractic college. I learned many amazing things, but I still had more questions than answers. I believe diving deep into the brain answered many of those questions for me.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s incredible. And where did you go to chiropractic college in New York? Okay. All right, New York. Awesome. Fantastic. So tell us a little bit about how you’re using lasers. As part of this, we heard from someone here that you’re actually using the Zerona for brain-based stuff, which is, you know, for those who are listening, the Zerona laser is FDA-cleared for non-invasive fat loss. And so when we think of the Zerona, we typically use it in my practice. As of now, we have not been using it for brain-based stuff. And so now I’m very intrigued and, quite frankly, excited to hear how you’re using it. Erchonia would consider this as an off-label use for that, but it is fascinating nonetheless. So, yeah.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: So Zerona is a new addition to our practice, in the past six to eight months or so. And, you know, I’ve been thinking about it for years and talking with Doctors in the field like Trevor Berry and others about Zerona applications beyond cosmetics. We’re still using it for its intended purpose, which is to reduce belly fat. But we’ve been delving into the connections between belly fat and brain function, particularly studies examining cortical atrophy, the decrease in size and thickness of certain parts of the cerebral cortex in individuals with excess belly fat. And there’s a distinction between subcutaneous and visceral fat. Many of the papers are linked to visceral fat. So we’ve encountered that conundrum too: can we target visceral fat with Zerona? We’re reducing fat, which ultimately benefits people’s health. Coupled with lifestyle changes, medical food protocols, or whatever it may be, we can address visceral fat through exercise programs, and whole-body vibration, and tackle both aspects of fat, leading to changes in brain function, particularly in populations unable to move. We see many individuals in wheelchairs, quadriplegic, hemiplegic, or even locked in, putting on significant weight due to higher caloric intake requirements stemming from hypermetabolic syndromes common after certain brain injuries. Yet, they can’t burn this extra energy due to their immobility, leading to the accumulation of belly fat. Their waist-to-hip ratios can be as high as two to one or even higher. This correlates with findings on CAT scans, showing cortical thickness. We’re having people undergo neuroquant imaging, a software that analyzes MRI data to examine cortical thickness and establish baselines. We’re observing thinner areas in individuals who can’t move. For those who can undergo cognitive testing, we’re conducting pre-and post-tests, along with laboratory analyses to monitor shifting markers. We’re observing physical and cognitive improvements, now measurable to an even greater extent.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: You’re not even changing the placement of where you’re using the laser if I’m understanding this correctly. No, you’re simply applying it, let’s say, to the belly area. So, the abdomen. But what you’re doing is paying particular attention to how it’s impacting and affecting all these other holistic markers, including brain markers.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, it was just a no-brainer for us because we were addressing these things anyway, with changes in diet, intermittent fasting, medical food protocols, you name it. But we weren’t able to get that fat off fast enough. Yeah. And also, too, you know, they feel better because these folks, you know, they want to move; they want to exercise, they can, and they look down at their belly every day. And it’s just another thing that causes them to be, you know, withdrawn, depressed, not wanting to be around people. So just that alone, that social factor, having them feel more comfortable and close and being out with people, that impacts their brain as well.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, when you considered adding Zerona, was it because you wanted to help people lose weight? Or did you realize that by helping them lose weight, it would also improve their cognitive function? Or was it a little bit of both?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: I brought it in 100% from a brain-based perspective, you know? If we get that belly fat down, their brains are gonna work better. Absolutely. Because, you know, we do get calls. We’re so busy with what we do. We do have people wanting to come in for the cosmetic end of it, but often we may just refer them out because we are so focused on the populations that we serve.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. Yeah, we’ve had our Zerona at our clinic for a couple of months now. We’ve talked about its systemic impact in a positive way. But when I say systemic impact, I’ve thought about more than just inflammation or gut health microbiome-type stuff. Going above and beyond and discussing its potential to improve brain function is a cool added benefit for the patient.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Getting somebody to understand that if they don’t have a severe traumatic brain injury, and even if they’re overweight, helping them grasp that what’s going on in their belly area is linked to how their brain functions. Witnessing that change in perception in a person is quite impactful. It shifts the focus from just the waistline, preparing for a wedding or fitting into a bathing suit, to realizing that it’s about longevity and improving quality of life.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, although I would say it tends to be an easier gateway for most people to start, as almost kind of crazy as that sounds, you know what I mean? It’s easier to get people to pull the trigger on aesthetic things than on more logical things, you know what I mean, in terms of most people, particularly women. I get it, you know, they are concerned with their appearance, and I understand that. I do, you know because we have these conversations with patients all the time. Look at your spine, look at your XYZ, whatever other condition, and they’re not nearly as quick or as apt, or even, I should say, excited to move forward, whether it’s a financial investment, or, you know, actual engagement in their care plan, or whatever it is, versus with this. Ronette kind of sells itself, in that sense of, hey, we’re gonna put this laser on you, it’s gonna help you, right? You know, lose inches off your waist.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Now, we’re going to cover this in a future podcast, but did you happen to make the connection between Zerona and, for example, your nephew? That might be or…

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I don’t know if you made that connection. Yeah, he just started. Yeah

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I think this would be a good time to share that story. And maybe Dr. Tray, could you share some stories that are similar to this? 

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yes, sir. Yeah. So, my nephew has autism. As soon as we got him, we started using the FX 405 with him. He had been doing it pretty consistently, once or twice a week. Within a few treatments, his mother started to notice a significant difference in his overall mood, behavior, and communication. You know, just a lot of these kinds of baseline day-to-day markers, if you want to call them that, with his well-being. He’s been doing it consistently now for several months, and it’s made a huge difference. We talked with Steve Shanks on a previous episode about what an incredible difference it’s made. He just started on this Zerona as well because he wants to lose a little bit of belly fat. I’m curious to see what that does for him as well. He’s been through two treatments already and has lost a total of four inches. So, I’m really curious to see what further results he achieves.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, particularly because, you know, generally speaking, autism, they’re not so concerned about their appearance, so it’s not going to be good looking. Feeling good. It’s going to be more of a pure reflection of the metabolic influences. Yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s gonna be cool. So awesome. So you have this Zerona, what other lasers do you use?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: The FX 635. We’ve been using that for years and just love it. So many applications. My goodness, we started primarily with transcranial applications. We don’t treat pain in our clinic, so we went directly to neurological applications. Over time, we started to learn about the amazing benefits of working away from the brain. We spend just as much time on the gut as we do on the brain. We’re doing some pretty amazing protocols. We also work with a subset of people who have a crossover between concussion and addictive and compulsive behavior. So we’re seeing some pretty amazing things when we look at, you know, especially somebody treating for that. They might say, ‘Why are you putting a laser on my belly? I’m dealing with an addiction problem.’ But when you talk about the hotbed of serotonin production in the appropriate frequencies, people feel better when they work through their gut. Sometimes, particularly with learning and behavioral issues, we see better results than when we work directly on the brain. So it’s not about going for the obvious tremendous applications are going right on the brain, especially when coupled and layered with other therapies, be it physical therapies or Neurofeedback audio-visual entertainment. There are lots of layering and stacking applications. But yeah, I don’t know, where do you want to start?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, let’s talk about it from just the standpoint of my curiosity. When you talk about addiction, you’re not referring to people who have developed addictive tendencies post-concussion; you’re just saying there’s a crossover there in terms of overlapping findings, right? So if somebody comes to you as a patient and says, ‘I’m struggling with addiction XYZ,’ with no history of head trauma whatsoever, you would work with those patients. Right?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: So there are a couple of ways to look at this, you know, addictions, in general. Aside from the genetic factors, there’s an understanding that there’s a learning and behavioral basis for addiction. So if somebody has preexisting ADHD, OCD, etc., and they experience a car accident resulting in a mild traumatic brain injury, they’re going to magnify those challenges. That’s just a magnification of something preexisting. However, some people develop attention deficit and other issues post-concussion; we see that every day. So it can be the creation of or magnification of preexisting conditions. Furthermore, there isn’t a person I’ve seen with a brain injury who wasn’t, at least at one point, on massive amounts of medication. For instance, there’s one individual I’m currently working with who is significantly dependent on benzodiazepines and Xanax, unable to stop taking these drugs. This is one of the unspoken addictions and one of the hardest addictions that people are dealing with these days because they virtually can’t come off of them. Laser therapies, when combined with other treatments, are helping to ease the burden a little bit, allowing individuals to work with their doctors to gradually reduce the medication that was given to them, which subsequently caused the addiction following the brain injury.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That alone, I mean, one of the fascinating things that we have found in interviewing so many experts, is all of these sub-niches, if you will, that we have discovered. Like, when we were talking to Jamie Thayer, she mentioned they’ve developed this whole niche of having a program for post-tattoo lasers to help people speed up the healing process. I thought, “What a brilliant niche!” You know, it’s like, what an incredible niche that is. When you’re discussing that, I’m once again struck by what an incredible niche you have there. It’s probably not being addressed in terms of the whole idea of addiction, but not necessarily addiction alone. Just the concept of using lasers as a bridge or a tool to help people who want to get off medication, to ease that process for them. Because there are so many people out there in that situation right now. How many people are unhappy with a particular medication, but feel like they’ve already crossed that bridge? My wife was one of them. She was on Ambien for years and knew it was a dead-end road. But the mistake she made, at the time we didn’t realize, was quitting cold turkey. That was a nightmare, a real nightmare. And I know, many others, they’re in the same situation. So if lasers can potentially be used, and I know we’re talking off-label here, but if you’ve seen in your clinical experience that it’s a really effective tool to help ease that challenge, then I’d say, “Yeah.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: And that too, and also, you know, all the things that come with addiction, or are the crux of addiction: challenges with attention, focus, impulse control, and self-regulation, all prefrontal dorsolateral, prefrontal cortical issues—you know, lasers, aside from delivering energy and all the good things they do with photons, they stimulate neural activity. So, if you have somebody who has areas in the brain that just are not accessible because they’re largely living in fight-flight mode, their cortex is offline because of the nature of being hijacked, so to speak, if we can activate these areas while they’re engaging in different cognitive tasks, physical tasks, then they have greater access. And that’s the ability now to self-regulate emotional output, to control impulses, to create space between stimulus and response—we’re really big on that, you know, the whole idea, you poke the dog, you get bit because they don’t have any space between stimulus and response. As humans, we should have that as developed humans, as a baby, not as a senior with a deteriorating cortex who doesn’t have that ability. But we should have that. People with addiction either didn’t develop it or have lost that ability. So they get the craving, they use, they numb the pain, or seek pleasure. If we can tap into some greater access by using physiology, by harnessing the power of the lasers and what they can do to physiology, neuronal physiology, that’s a pretty cool thing. And those are where we can see some of those changes.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s interesting about what you’re saying, in general from a high-level perspective, is that it’s not necessarily the use of the laser itself that’s noteworthy, but rather, the laser is employed to facilitate various therapeutic activities or used in conjunction with them to assist in the process. This concept is quite similar to what we often hear from doctors regarding Erchonia’s applications: ‘good’ involves simply turning the laser on and letting it go; ‘better’ entails incorporating some form of movement if we’re discussing musculoskeletal issues, and I’m confident the same applies to brain-based applications; and ‘best’ involves introducing resistance alongside the laser, thereby creating a more significant physical challenge. Does this accurately represent what you’re doing and how you’re doing it, in general?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: yeah, if you have somebody who’s had a stroke impacting the left side of the brain, they may have trouble moving their right hand or experience spasticity of flexors, making it difficult to extend their hand. What we can do is target the left side of the brain, specifically over the areas that control the affected hand, and provide stimulation while they engage in physical activity or receive electrical stimulation on the right hand. This helps the brain better understand the location of the body part and facilitates co-activation. It’s akin to dual-tasking, where engaging in multiple activities simultaneously often yields better outcomes. Whether it’s combining physical tasks with cognitive ones or integrating modalities like laser therapy alongside physical exercises, the goal is to enhance co-activation and establish stronger connections between brain and body.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: It has to be rewarding for you to see this and to be engaged in this. It almost makes me feel like I’m, when you’re saying all these things, it’s like reminding me of a mad scientist, although you’re not mad, like, where you’re remapping and reprogramming at such a root level. It’s got to be rewarding and fascinating, and almost like a certain level of excitement and curiosity. That’s one of the things I’ve said so many times about these lasers—knowing that there is little to no risk associated with them. It’s like your playground; you can do so many different things in so many cool, unique and innovative ways. It opens up this wide opportunity for you to innovate, you know what I mean? In such a cool way?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, there’s no end to it. You know, we were talking a little bit before the show about my space. One of the areas I specialize in is EEG (electroencephalography), quantitative EEG, s Loreta imaging, particularly for traumatic brain injuries. Sometimes, we can’t conduct examinations, or we can only perform bedside examinations, but we can’t utilize many computerized diagnostics on unresponsive patients. So what can we do? We can place a cap on their head and record the electrical output of their brain. Then, we can observe how a laser might impact that output. If they have excessive theta brainwave activity, causing their brain to function slowly and be non-functional and bogged down, we can attempt to speed that up through various frequencies. Laser, like sound, electricity, or vibration, operates on frequencies. We can use higher frequencies to hopefully increase brain activity, allowing them to engage more with their rehabilitation. Currently, a significant area of study is examining the impacts of lasers on cortical output through EEG.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And so far, what are you seeing?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: It’s mind-boggling, really, particularly with what’s called S Loretta imaging, which is more database-driven real-time electrophysiological imaging. So we can see, from a standard deviation perspective, how far away from the, you know, the bell curve, that individual’s brain is concerning a certain Brainwave. So delta, theta, alpha, beta, gamma, we can pick out a certain brainwave, we can look at that, you know, the initial EEG tells us where we need to kind of, like you said, mile-high, where we need to kind of, you know, home in and strike, so to speak, so we can look at specific parts of the brain and see if there’s, you know, for the addicted person if there’s trouble with the posterior cingulate not having enough Alpha brainwave activity. Well, now we can go in and use a laser that is at, you know, 10,12 hertz on that posterior cingulate region and we can see some shifts towards normalization. So instead of seeing the blues on the screen, we start getting more of the greens on the screen, and just decrease that standard deviation gap. Some people are so far outside the bell curve, you know, major outliers, they’re 4, 5, 6, 7 standard deviations out. And if we can get them, you know, with a couple of laser treatments down two or three standard deviations, that’s pretty remarkable. So that’s what we’re trying to quantify now.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: One of the biggest issues we see, Dr. Trayford, Chad and I recognize, is that brain health is becoming a massive epidemic. And it’s only getting worse; the trends are worsening. We see laser therapy as a powerful tool to help with that, and we see Neurofeedback as another powerful tool. Sometimes doctors listening to this may think, ‘Yeah, this is all great. But I don’t have a neurology diplomat. Where do I even begin?’ And I think sometimes doctors, like this, it all makes sense to them, and they want to help patients with these issues. They already have these patients in their practice, but they don’t know what to do. Then you hear on one side, someone will say, ‘You can’t do any harm. So start somewhere.’ And then you’ll be talking about a specific area in the brain. And doctors might say, ‘I don’t remember CNS when I went to school.’ Is there, in your opinion, any bridge between where you are and your years of experience? And then, when a doctor picks up a laser, how and where do they start? How do they help people with these tools?   

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah, it’s interesting. I think everybody needs to appreciate their lane and what they do. For good reason, stay in that lane. That’s what we do; we don’t take on pain patients or many of the things we used to because we’re so concentrated on what we do. So it’s really all about collaboration and working with people who know what they’re doing. If we have somebody coming in dealing with pain associated with brain injury, we often work with chiropractors in our area, or most of our clients come from out of state. We have networks of doctors around the country that we can connect these people with—chiropractors, psychologists, other mental health professionals, laser practitioners, whatever it is. They have to start somewhere, but if they haven’t undergone ample training regarding brain function, it’s more like experimentation. I prefer to thoroughly study everything before onboarding it. I’m a bit of a stickler like my father; I need to understand something well before I execute. You have to start somewhere, learn, appreciate what you’re good at, and stay in that lane. More importantly, collaborate with people around you. I recently returned from a conference for the International Society of Neuroregulation and Research. I gave a three-hour talk to mostly Ph.D. counselors, licensed professional counselors, psychiatrists, and mental health professionals. Most of these professionals can’t provide laser therapy in their practice, but they were fascinated and wanted to know who they could refer their patients to. It’s about building bridges and connecting people, especially in mental health and neuroscience. Often, those two camps aren’t communicating. Bringing them together has been a passion of mine. Collaboration is the ultimate key; you need people around you who excel in their space.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s an unfortunate disconnect that you’re talking about there, in my opinion, from where I sit, shouldn’t be there. I mean, it’s like peanut butter and jelly, you know what I mean, in terms of why those things do not go together? You know, when you’re talking about mental health space? You’ve got it, it’s like two sides of the same coin, you know, in terms of—think about it, again, for…and I don’t know why I’m not…so I don’t know why I’m surprised by that. Because we see that a lot, you know, because of ego and territorial nature of so many providers of all disciplines. At the end of the day, patients are the ones who suffer, you know, as a result, and innovation is what suffers. So I can’t agree with you more when it comes to this idea of collaboration. Collaboration is, and I don’t mean this from an overly optimistic kumbaya type, because it might sound like that. But the truth of the matter is, I find that through collaboration, greater innovation happens, and also I find that business improves when you can develop good, strong strategic partnerships. We found that in our business as well. It’s been fantastic, so yeah, it’s a good mentality to have.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: My business sucks. I loaded it a long time ago when I decided I didn’t want to treat what I didn’t like to treat and when I wasn’t that good at it. Yeah, and also to where I wasn’t leaving a huge void in the market, so to speak. Yeah, there were a lot of people treating pain; I didn’t like treating pain, so I was more than happy to let that go. And when I did, that’s when the phone started ringing off the hook. Yeah, so, you know, as chiropractors, acupuncturists, etcetera, etcetera, we’re more kind of generalist-minded; we can treat everything, and I believe we can have an impact on everything. I just chose to hyper-focus on what I do. And that’s what worked for me.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I have always enjoyed the generalist specialists. When you visit their websites, it’s like going through the alphabet, from A through Z, showcasing what they specialize in allergies, ADHD, auto accidents, and everything else in between.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: I often encounter patients who insist on having a particular provider. For men, especially, we have to navigate through their websites and sometimes even make phone calls. There are many great professionals out there. However, for the unique cases we deal with, especially those involving genetic and neurodevelopmental issues, we need specialists who are well-versed in this area and comfortable working with it. These specialists constitute a small portion of providers. For instance, I once called a doctor—I can’t recall the state—and asked if they treated addiction cases. The response was, ‘I deal with junkies all the time.’ That ended the conversation right there. If he had experience with addiction cases, such a derogatory remark wouldn’t have been made.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I treat junkies all the time, you know. Spoken like a true professional, there’s.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: It’s a shock. And I just said, ‘Okay, we’re done here.’ But it’s just to say that you know, I wouldn’t… it’s that whole thing. You know, if I don’t know something, I’ll tell the patient, ‘I don’t know.’ But it’s so common for people to say, you know, their provider told them, ‘Don’t do this, don’t do that,’ without any knowledge of what that person does. So I’m all about investigation. Yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s a great point. So, addiction recovery, that’s kind of a unique avenue. What other areas might surprise patients or practitioners regarding patient cases or types you’ve seen?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: I spent a lot of time in areas we don’t focus on as much now because we’re so fixated on what’s visible. But I spent probably seven or eight years in the Movement and Balance Disorder arena. Dealing with everything from Parkinson’s, MS, ALS, and vertigo. So, we still receive calls related to neurodegenerative conditions, just for what we specialize in. It’s a significantly different approach to rehabilitation because those individuals are experiencing decline. We want to do whatever we can to assist them. We’ll try to find people who can work with them, but I’m very comfortable with that. I love working with Parkinson’s patients because functional neurology is probably one of the best tools they have, and when you add lasers on top of that, it’s a recipe for success in reducing symptoms.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And most of these folks, have you seen many ALS patients in your time? Unfortunately, yes.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Yeah. And we know how that goes. Yeah, that was very challenging. There was a time when we were getting a lot of those referrals, you know, it just wore on me because getting these calls and attending patients’ wakes and funerals a year after meeting them. But it was comforting to know that we did what we could to help them along their path. There’s a doctor in here talking about improving the transition, you know, so people transition easier. That’s great, but it just wore on me. I took that stuff home and couldn’t let it go. Yeah

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: There’s a great documentary I don’t know if you’ve happened to see yet. It’s called “I’m Not Dead Yet”. It’s about Jason Becker. Does this ring a bell? Yeah, I haven’t seen it though. Okay, so this was important to me because I grew up playing guitar. Jason Becker, if you know, is great – you’ll have to, so anybody who’s listening, you have to check this movie out because it’s worth watching. It’s a great documentary. Jason Becker is probably one of the greatest guitar players that you’ve ever heard of. A lot of people haven’t – mainstream, you know? And yet, if you look at his accolades, he is one of the most accomplished not just guitar players, but musicians that have ever lived – amazing. He got asked to play lead guitar for David Lee Roth and started playing lead guitar for David Lee Roth. When we’re talking guitar players here, I mean, this guy was a savant – just incredible. This guy could shred on the guitar. It was so cool. As he started going on tour with David Lee Roth, he started noticing some unusual symptoms – weakness in his hands and things like that. So he went to the doctors and was shortly thereafter diagnosed with ALS. It progressed as ALS progressed, and it got to the point where he was in a wheelchair and could only move his eyes. The most fascinating part about the documentary, as fascinating and incredible and moving as this is to see him as a guitar player, he continued to compose and produce music with his eyes. He had this special computer made where he would compose entire symphonies with his eyes – he would move his eyes and place the notes. So you could see, there was still so much left inside of him, you know what I mean? Hence, the “I’m Not Dead Yet” – there was still more. You should have heard – that’s why the documentary is so good. You got to hear it, to see it, and hear it because the stuff he was still producing even with ALS was just unbelievable. Such a good documentary. So yes, I can appreciate not having seen ALS patients myself, but I could appreciate how that could very much wear on you. It’s unfortunate.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: The beauty of the tragedy in this situation is that their cognition remains unimpaired. Yes

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, they’re fully aware of everything. Yeah. So great. Great documentary, though. It’s really good. So yes, um, yeah. Jason Becker. Amazing guy. So yeah, it sounds like you’re doing some incredible stuff out there. And it seems like it’s been quite a few years you’ve been at this now.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: I always forget that stuff. 23 to 24 years.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay. And no slowing down. It looks like I’ve been to your website. It’s beautiful. Your clinic looks amazing. And so clinic now.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s actually under construction. So yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, you’re building a new one. Huh?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: We are. Yeah, we’re moving. We need more space. So we bought a building; we’ve got about 4000 square feet now.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Are you in downtown Asheville? Or are you on the outskirts? Oh no, we are. Yeah, we’re moving. We need more space. So we bought a building, we’ve got about 4000 square feet now.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: We’re on the outskirts of South Asheville. Okay. There’s a little more room to spread down there. It’s a beautiful area. Yeah. And we have this great place right on the lake. So there are walking trails and picnic tables, and fantastic families come and stay for 2, 3, 4, or 5 hours a day in the office with their exclusively immersive rehab programs. So they come for 5, 10, 15 days, in some cases a month or more. But they’re there all day, every day. So the families, you know, this will be nice. It was very intentional that they’ll have space; they can just get out and decompress. And yeah, we’re building caregivers’ rounds in the new place. So caregivers can go in and do all kinds of cool stuff for themselves while they’re there.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. What a neat layout and design. That’s incredible.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: It’s taken a while, but you know, the wisdom and intentionality are all coming together. And we’re getting there. We’re looking at the replication end of things too. So, we have a couple of areas of interest that we’re going to be expanding into over the next couple of years.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: When will this be finished? 

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Construction is pretty much done. I have to go back and check it on Monday. But moving in will probably be mid-December after the new year at this point because schedules are super tight

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, I have to imagine this has been a long time in the making

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: The other new office? Well, that was, you know, actually something that popped up. We were talking about the whole purchasing versus renting for years and the advantages to both are clear, but something popped up, and we couldn’t pass it up.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: So, what are you envisioning for the next 5 to 10 years? What excites you in the brain health space? What are you looking forward to doing?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: You know, just looking at light and the brain, my goodness, fiber optics, and lasers, to me, is the biggest area of interest, particularly in the neurodegenerative realm. Big universities acknowledge that light heals the brain, even at a genetic level. So, it excites me to see where laser research is heading. You can Google low-level laser and find papers on its application to almost any nervous system condition. It’s very exciting to be at the forefront of this research before it becomes more controlled. Also, the applications of electrophysiological interventions and diagnostics are areas where I feel few are focusing. If I’m examining the brain, I’m looking at EEG every day. The learning curve in this field is tremendous; even after 10-12 years, I still feel humbled by it, continuously learning something new with each EEG I review. As the scope broadened, I felt more humbled; I felt like I knew everything, but now, it seems like I know nothing. It’s just how the process goes, or maybe that’s just the dementia kicking in.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: No, you’re talking in that Socrates’s true wisdom lies in knowing you know nothing, right? So, like, the greater that seems to be a very common theme in my life as well. I look back at the previous 10 years, and I’m like, “Man, you didn’t know anything.” And then I just take it now at face value that I’ll know 10 years from now and say the same thing about where I’m sitting right now. So, it also further helps accelerate that whenever we talk to dogs like you, because I’m like, “Okay, yeah, there’s a lot that I have to learn.” And we talk just seriously. So I say this almost every episode: one of the cool benefits that we get is we get to talk to some incredible people on this podcast, you being one of those Docs. So yeah, we appreciate you being here with us. This has been a great conversation. We appreciate you taking time out of your schedule to be with us. And we’re excited about all the amazing things that you’re doing and the lives that you’re changing with the work that you’re doing. So keep up the good work. It’s incredible. We’re excited to hear more. And we hope to have you back on again to talk more.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Thank you guys so much. Keep up the great work. Yeah

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Trying to orchestrate some episodes with some of the Olympic athletes you work with. Oh, hopefully. Yeah. We’ll get them on schedule. And if anything, if we don’t get them on the schedule, we’d love to have you back.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Absolutely. Yeah

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, Dr. Trayford, thank you so much for being here. And for all the doctors and patients who’ve been listening, we hope this has been a really fun and eye-opening episode for you, showcasing some incredible advancements with lasers and all things neurology. It’s been cool.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: One more thing before we get going. If you’re a patient, we know we have patients who listen to this podcast, which is fantastic. If you are dealing with brain health issues or if you know someone who is dealing with brain health issues, that’s what Dr. Trayford specializes in. If you look up Apex Brain Centers.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: We’ll make sure to include a link in the show notes as well, right? Because what percentage of your patients come from out of town?

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Probably about 85? I would imagine. Yes. 

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So if you’re listening, and you’re like, ‘But I live in California,’ or ‘I live in Texas’ or whatever. Great, good news. That’s where he sees people, people fly in and see him. So that’s great.

 

Dr. Michael Trayford: Just on that note, when people detach from their daily lives and enter into something kind of a child going away to soccer camp, they learn more in those five days than they did the entire year before. This is because they’re not just immersed in it, but they’re also detached from the daily hustle and bustle. There’s something powerful in that, you know, kind of like a brain reset.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Unplugging from the norms. Yeah, that’s huge. So, great point. We’ll make sure we put that in the show notes, and that way, people can have a link to that. But yeah, we appreciate it. And we’ll talk to you guys in the next episode. Have a good one. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There, you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as the Erchonia e-community, where you can access additional resources, including advanced training and business tools, for free. Again, thanks for listening, and we will catch you on the next episode.

 

About The Guest(s):

Dr. Michael Trayford is a board-certified chiropractic neurologist and neurofeedback expert from Asheville, North Carolina. He specializes in treating traumatic brain injuries, neurodegenerative diseases, and neurodevelopmental disorders. Known for his innovative use of laser therapy, particularly the Zerona laser, Dr. Trayford integrates this with traditional chiropractic techniques and neurofeedback for a comprehensive approach to brain health. His work emphasizes the connection between physical health and cognitive performance, 

highlighting his commitment to advancing neurological health through clinical practice, research, and collaboration.

Episode Summary:

In this episode of The Laser Light Show, hosts Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells sit down with Dr. Michael Trayford, a chiropractic neurologist specializing in traumatic brain injuries, neurodegenerative, and neurodevelopmental disorders. The conversation explores the profound impacts of laser therapy in medical practice, focusing on brain health and the innovative use of lasers for treatment beyond traditional applications.

Key Takeaways:

  • Laser Therapy’s Broad Applications: Dr. Trayford shares his extensive experience with laser therapy, highlighting its effectiveness in treating brain injuries, spinal cord injuries, and cognitive impairments. He emphasizes the revolutionary use of Zerona laser, typically FDA-cleared for non-invasive fat loss, for brain-based applications, shedding light on its off-label benefits for improving brain function.
  • Focus on Brain Health: The episode underscores the critical role of brain health in overall wellness. Dr. Trayford illustrates how reducing belly fat with Zerona laser can positively affect brain function, linking physical health with cognitive performance.
  • Innovative Treatments: The discussion delves into the combination of laser therapy with neurofeedback and other interventions for enhanced treatment outcomes, particularly in the realms of addiction recovery and neurodegenerative diseases.
  • Collaborative Care: Dr. Trayford stresses the importance of collaboration among healthcare professionals, advocating for a multidisciplinary approach to patient care that leverages the unique strengths and specialties of various practitioners.

Quotes:

  • Dr. Trayford on Laser Therapy: “Lasers? I would say probably about seven or eight years. It was just a no-brainer for us because we were addressing these things anyway”
  • Dr. Wells on Drug Awareness: “Whether you’re a young man or a young woman, listen here: don’t do drugs.”
  • Dr. Woolner on the Impact of Lasers: “It’s like your playground; you can do so many different things in so many cool unique and innovative ways. It opens up this wide opportunity for you to innovate.”
  • Dr. Trayford on Brain Health: “If we get that belly fat down, their brains are gonna work better.”

Episode #29: Lasers for Horses And Their Riders With Dr. Pat Bona

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells. And on this episode of The Laser Light Show, we’re going to be talking to our good friend Dr. Patricia Bona and we’re going to be talking about her experiences working with both people and with animals in the chiropractic setting. So let’s get to it. 

Transcript

Speakers: 

Dr. Andrew Wells

Dr. Chad Woolner

Dr. Patricia Bona

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show. 

 

Explore the transformative benefits of Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for athletes in our blog, How Laser Therapy Helps Athletes Physically and Mentally. Learn how LLLT can accelerate recovery, reduce pain, and enhance mental clarity. Dive into the world of laser therapy now!

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, welcome to the show, everybody. And Dr. Pat, thanks for being here with us. Welcome to the show, So you are from Pennsylvania. Correct.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: I am originally from New Jersey.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: New Jersey. Okay. And now you also have a place down in Ocala, is that what it’s called? Ocala, which I just learned is the horse capital of the United States, or rather, of the world. This is something new to me.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s not Kentucky. Oh, well.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: You might think, “Yeah, I would imagine that if someone asked me, that’s exactly how it would be.”

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Lexington or Yeah, I knew Ocala was a big horse place. But yeah,

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: I think more so because there’s such a variety of horse breeds in Ocala. We’re in Kentucky. It’s predominantly Thoroughbreds. Oh, well, that makes sense. So I think that’s why they don’t give it that title. Nice.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: And so, it makes sense that you’d be there because you are a chiropractor, and you work with both human beings and animals as well.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Yes, I’ve had a pretty lovely practice since 1992, when I was certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. So for a long time, I did primarily horses, but I’ve more recently, in the past five years or so, started to work with more dogs as well. And cats and other sundry animals.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Do you see a signal? I’m asking out of pure curiosity and perhaps ignorance. Is there a significant difference between the horse breeds you work with, or is it just a case of “a horse is a horse is a horse”?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: No, there are significant differences in their personality, their conformation, their constitutional makeup, and what they’re being asked to do. So, there’s a huge difference from that perspective, but they are just wonderful, giving animals. The fact that you can put a horse in a horse trailer and then take them out, and they’ll get back on the horse trailer as long as you didn’t have a horrible drive, is a testament to how human-oriented they can be, showing a desire to have a partnership.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, never thought of it. That’s really interesting. Like, what other animal can do that too? Maybe like an ox? Probably. Well, you wouldn’t go riding an ox.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Actually, I have a dear friend in Montana who has a horse she broke. Wow, yeah, wow. The horse participates in parades and everything. Why can’t she take lessons for flying lead changes?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yes, That’s amazing.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: She must be a pretty incredible woman then to do that. 

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: That’s incredible. Actually in Wyoming, not Montana. Yeah,

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Wow. Pretty crazy. That’s amazing.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: So, Did you start working with animals at the beginning of your career, or is that something you kind of transitioned into?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: It came in pretty quickly. I wanted to focus on riders and having riders see themselves as athletes, which was back in 1987. I tried to promote this by writing an article and offering it to a couple of the larger magazines, EQUUS and Practical Horseman. They wrote me back, saying they don’t discuss topics like that. So, I was a bit ahead of my time. Consequently, I was lecturing and conducting various small clinics locally. Then, I believed my horse needed chiropractic care and began exploring that avenue. I met Dr. Judith Shoemaker, who is one of the very big names and an incredible mentor. At the same time, I worked with Dave Duquette, a world-renowned farrier, who looked into chiropractic care for horses. Then, I asked David to examine my horse, and he noted that the pelvis was uneven, and the feet were incorrect. Initially, I met Dave when I was leasing a horse, and he was the one who first taught me to evaluate a horse’s posture mechanically, which is essentially physics. The cannon bones, akin to our shin bones, need to be vertical, just like the uprights of a building. Evaluating posture in horses, however, differs significantly because, unlike humans, where a frontal view can reveal posture, with horses (and even dogs), you must assess from both the right and left sides for symmetry. It’s fascinating. When Dave came to help with my horse’s feet, after riding my horse at his recommendation, he removed the shoes, trimmed the feet, reshaped them, and asked me to ride again. The difference was profound. As a chiropractor, riding my horse always resulted in my back going out, requiring adjustments each time. It turned out that the imbalance in my horse’s feet was causing issues for both of us, leading to a significant revelation. This was incredibly inspiring. I often tell people how much I can relate to various physical issues, whether it’s neck, back, or unusual injuries, or dealing with animals that have problems. It’s a wonderful education to have in a profession full of diverse techniques and options. The laser has been the most profound tool in my practice, benefiting horses, dogs, and humans alike. I am very blessed and never leave home without it.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: What percentage of your time spent in the clinic is with humans versus animals?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: It’s about 50-50. Okay, take out the travel, it’s probably, I should say, actually say, probably 60-40, more weighted towards the animals, But now I’m doing a little bit more adjusting on the road, part of me with the humans, the riders, because that’s what I want to do, work with that partnership.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I arrived early for practice, and we went to a horse show to set up a booth as part of our practice. This was specifically because we were conducting screenings there. We had a patient who was very active in the horse community, and she suggested we set up a booth there since many riders were dealing with injuries. So, we agreed, and that decision was quite enlightening for me early on. It made complete sense—the connection or correlation seemed obvious. However, your point is intriguing. I might not have made the connection as you did. I would have assumed it’s inevitable to experience issues with your hips and pelvis from riding a horse. To some extent, it is inevitable. But, the significant improvement for the rider, when the horse is properly aligned or when their hooves are correctly shod, is remarkable, as you’ve noted.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Yeah, so the feet are the foundation of their support, the base of their support. They’re kind of like having your pistons well-balanced. If those four pistons aren’t well balanced, the rest of the system is going to be off, and then you’re going to have compensations, wear and tear, and misalignments. But the interesting thing is riders will pay for chiropractic care, laser treatments, acupuncture, and very expensive equipment for their horses, but they almost always neglect themselves, right? It’s about really putting it back there and saying, ‘You’re doing all this, and this is the variable, and you deserve to have your body in alignment and well-tuned as an athlete.’ That was the problem when I wanted to approach the Akwesasne practical horsemen; they weren’t looking at it as a partnership, and the riders were athletes. They need to cross-train, watch their posture, eat well, and understand that mental and physical fitness is for everything.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. So tell us maybe a little bit more about how you’re using lasers with horses and other animals as well.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: I will work with pretty much anybody unless they’re pregnant, or there’s a contraindication for using the laser. I use it to tone the spine and then apply it more specifically to different areas where I want to perform myofascial release on a horse or address joint inflammation. It’s very specific; there are different frequencies we can use. When it comes to whether horses or people can feel it, most can’t feel the class II cold laser on their arm. Sometimes, it feels almost like a breeze gliding across your skin. However, our awareness as humans is much less than that of horses and dogs. Horses, in particular, respond very quickly. I can tell when the frequencies I choose are effective because usually within about two minutes, the horse might lick and chew, drop its head, take a big breath, and relax. They respond very physically, akin to how we feel when, during winter, there’s a nice warm, sunny day, and you can wear short sleeves and bask in the sun, thinking, “Ah, this feels so good.” Animals feel and respond to it very quickly, which is fascinating to witness. It’s remarkable to see how subtle their responses are something people don’t often understand. What’s great, though, is when patients or riders come in and get adjusted, and they see the effectiveness of muscle balancing and laser treatment, they can appreciate even more why horses or dogs respond so well to it.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. When you use the laser on the horses, are you using a veterinary laser or a human laser? Which one is it? Do you notice a difference?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Well, no, I think it’s a matter of the lasers, the laser; it’s just how it’s, you would say, labeled.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Sure.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: I have the human laser that I use on animals. Okay. You know, so? Yes.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome. So, when you adjust horses, is there an instrument that you use? Or is it manual, both, or across the board?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Because there are so many different chiropractic techniques available, I focus a lot on manual adjustments. However, I also emphasize preparation, as it’s important for the body to be ready. Whether it’s working on a human and performing trigger point therapy, muscle balancing, applied kinesiology, or using a laser to prepare the body for an adjustment, the approach is similar to horses. For them, probably 80 or 90% of the adjustment time involves doing soft tissue work and balancing, since soft tissue work directly influences the nervous system.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: For those who are listening, maybe take us through what that would look like. In terms of what an assessment would look like, I’m always fascinated whenever I talk to people who work with animals. When you talk with humans, humans can communicate verbally and tell you, “This is where it’s hurting for me,” or whatever, and fill you in. With animals, I would have to imagine there’s still a certain level of communication that takes place, but I’m assuming it’s more of an intuitive type of communication. So, maybe walk us through what you do, how you assess a horse, particularly. We’ll say, and then what the adjusting process would look like. I’m fascinated. I don’t know if I’ve ever actually seen a horse get adjusted before, I don’t think I have.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: So, my initial intake involves taking a history to find out what the owner’s concern is, whether it’s performance-related or something else, and getting the appropriate information from a veterinary perspective. It’s similar to dealing with people: very simple. We have body language. Even though I’m off camera, sitting here confidently, it comes through in my voice, right? You’re relaxed, and that comes through in your voice too. But when you look at a person, you observe body language; you can walk up to a friend and know they’re very happy, or you can see them from across the hall and think, “Wow, there’s a problem, I better go check on them.” So, with animals, particularly horses, posture is their language. Horses engage in a lot of posturing, similar to how a dog might raise its fur or put its ears back. Horses have very significant body language and spatial relationships.

Fortunately, I have a very lovely, long-term clientele, some relationships lasting 15-20 years. Many of them understand and appreciate having their horses evaluated monthly, recognizing it as a worthwhile investment of time and resources. Horses are very smart and as intelligent as dogs, I would say. It’s just that we don’t take them home with us; we can’t spend as much time with them, but they are very communicative and intelligent. It’s a beautiful bond that horses and humans share.

When examining a horse, especially a new one, I look at their posture and body language first. Are they standing with all four cannon bones vertical? Then, I walk around and observe the body and posture. My background in 4-H, where we did confirmation and judging contests, has been invaluable. As a fourth and fifth-grader, I learned to assess horses, placing them in order of their conformation, and then defending those placements behind closed doors. Although it might not be the best confirmation, it’s about justifying your placements.

However, we often misinterpret terms related to a horse’s structure, saying a horse has “mutton withers” or is “croup high,” which are terms that refer more to posture than conformation. I like to clarify this because a horse’s conformation is more about their bony anatomy, similar to humans. You can be fit or less fit and have good or poor posture. Many people come to me thinking they’ve shrunk, but often it’s just poor posture. With horses, it’s the same. Ensuring a horse is comfortable in its skin is crucial, as this can be discerned by their stance and reaction to their environment.

The skin, being the largest organ, plays a significant role in my evaluations. I look at the symmetry of their shoulders and hips, and the angle of their pelvis, as there’s often a “prettier” side which correlates to performance or injury issues. The impact of gravity on these asymmetries is profound. I also pay close attention to the skin, especially in regard to scar tissue, since horses, like humans, can accumulate scars that affect their internal structures.

I consider myself an artist working with a living medium, able to effect significant changes. Despite taking before and after photos being time-consuming, it’s a profoundly rewarding part of my work. As I’ve expanded my practice to include dogs, I’ve found that you can learn to read them just as well, although horses, with their size and expressiveness, provide unique insights.

In treating horses, I often start with their posture and symmetry, then move on to addressing issues like scar tissue. Educating owners on what to look for and how to maintain their animals’ health is a significant part of my practice. This extends to checking the legs and feet, as discomfort in these areas can affect overall posture. I employ various techniques, adjusting from both above and below to address soft tissue and skeletal issues alike.

Being fit and aware of one’s surroundings is essential, especially in a busy barn environment where a horse might react unpredictably. It’s like being a martial artist, constantly attuned to the interplay between horses, people, and the environment.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, I couldn’t help but think as you were talking about this, do you get a fairly decent gauge or read from the horse as to what their owner is like? And the thing I was going to say is, almost immediately, you know where I’m going with this, right? But I would imagine that most people willing to make that kind of investment in their horse probably take good care of their horses is my guess. But again, I’m curious if that comes out in the assessment, like if you don’t have a very good owner, or this owner doesn’t treat you very well, just based on that read or something like that. Does that happen? Has that happened?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Well, not from the perspective that they’re not being treated well. If someone has called me and they’re treating me well, it’s a matter of personal dynamics and education. Yeah, you can see that this horse could be a little bossy, and the owner is a bit intimidated.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: The dynamics.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Dynamics of personalities, just like you, mean that no one’s going to be the alpha. And you’ll have a child respond and react differently with a father versus a mother, or, you know, a sibling, or whoever it might be. It’s about understanding those dynamics. So, it’s looking at that, and then you have to have a conversation with them at times, you know, yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Helping them understand better the role they play with their horse. Yeah, that’s fascinating. So, when it comes to the adjustment side of things, I mean, because I’m still trying to wrap my head around how you actually put your hands on a horse’s spine and adjust the spine. I’ve heard that there are audible cavitations when you adjust horses, correct?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: There they are, very often audible, or you feel things moving differently. I’ve started chiropractic and am doing motion palpation as well. Okay, so the big thing is that looking at the anatomy, if you put yourself on all fours, and if you understand the anatomy of a human or yourself, you can kind of relate to where the thoracic spine is and where the lumbar spine is. Sure, but the cervical spine of a horse and a dog is so different. They look like spaceships to me. So when it came to doing that study with the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association, at that point in time, I had the ability to get in and do more dissections, and I had some cervical specimens so that you could learn that differently. But, relative to physics, as we know, our spine processes how I related it to the owners. If you have a sailboat, the mast is really tall, but the spinal cord and the spinal column are actually the hull of the boat. So, it doesn’t take much leveraging on the end of that.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Spinous process, just by this process. Thank you.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Relative to getting that motion back, okay. So, between the shoulder blades, right, we have that going there. The base of our neck, the horse’s withers, can be sometimes 10 to 12 inches long. And then the joints are that much smaller because they’re quadrupeds and not bipeds. So, the joints themselves don’t need to be as large to carry; it’s more of a shearing force. Susan, see how that worked.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Fascinating. Wow.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: And so you mentioned earlier in the podcast, that you’re using lasers as kind of like a preparatory type activity. So are you lasering every horse every time before an adjustment is that kind of standard protocol?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: It is nice because it’s so profound and powerful. However, from another perspective, it’s very interesting because we’re talking about metabolic disorders in people, and you might think that’s mostly about weight and such. But horses also suffer from metabolic disorders related to the pituitary gland and others. As horses age, they may not shed their coats properly and can develop insulin resistance, among other issues. The coat-shedding aspect is particularly fascinating. I’ve used brain frequencies on a young Mustang mare that a client brought in, or rather, that I went to see because we often have to travel to barns since people bring their horses in, and many have clinics to which they ship their horses. But I do a lot of traveling. So, I targeted the brain with specific frequencies, and two days later, the horse began shedding its coat.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Wow, and what does that typically look like in terms of how long you are putting it on an area? Are you moving it, or do you have it stationary on a stand?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: What is it I’m holding in my hand? Okay.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And so, you’ll do what, pass it a couple of times, hold it in the same area for a few minutes, typically two?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Given I had about two minutes, I wanted to see some sort of changes. Okay, it depends on the horse and what other factors are involved, but because you’re not really going to access all the lobes of their brain—their brains are smaller—I typically only laser the frontal portion and then the sides around the ears and the atlas. Okay? And we wait to see what kind of changes occur. Sometimes, you’re going to expect a change, like with horses that have had any sort of spinal issue. I’m not treating a disease, right? It’s the effects. For example, if a horse has had Lyme disease or if a horse has had equine protozoal myeloencephalitis (EPM), which is pretty significant if you laser their brain and it helps them, you’ll see they’ll just start yawning, sometimes 10-20 times. So, you know the body is having this huge release.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Wow, that’s amazing. Do you notice if, after laser treatments, the horses become more affectionate towards you? For example, do they lean their noses against you or show any similar behaviors?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: The horses quite often will turn around because they want to touch the laser, or they’ll put their nose on it and want to touch it, even with some other tools. Because I use various tools, like a wash or a spoon, I get pretty deep into my work with a fast release and spend a lot of time on it. So, they want to turn around, put their nose on it, chew on it, and see what it is.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s hilarious.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Hopefully haven’t lost any lasers with that. Chewing.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Pretty protective about that.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing. So, owners, I would imagine, notice pretty significant effects pretty quickly from this as well. With the lasers,

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Some people are very tuned in to their horses. They might say, “Well, if you can just check their neck and then, you know, laser it-she’s so responsive that we might just laser her before a competition,” and you can see a big difference. So, it’s really about having that awareness as an owner, trainer, or rider that you can really tell what helps the most and prioritize things in that way. That’s amazing. Owners, I would imagine, notice pretty significant effects pretty quickly from this as well, with the lasers.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Do you still have your horse or horses?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: My horse retired. He’s 22. His name is Sorento, and unfortunately, he had to retire when he was about 13 because he had a systemic disorder called degenerative suspensory ligament disease. This disease affects the glucosamine in the tissue, resulting in the ligaments’ inability to keep their ankles off the ground. The condition distorts the tissue, similar to untwisting a rope or cable, which can’t be twisted back. Despite this, Nick, a very social thoroughbred who almost raced but never hit the track, came to me when I was leasing a barn for my two horses. Someone approached me about bringing their boyfriend’s horse over due to a lack of space at their barn, so I took him in, and he was eventually abandoned by me. However, I believe things happen for a reason. Once, while I was in the stall telling him I was going to take his blanket off, something scared him, and he kicked me very hard in the leg, knocking me to the ground. Luckily, I had been working out a lot, but I wasn’t sure if my femur was fractured. I managed to get up and out of the stall, only to see he had split my quadricep in half; the injury was about eight inches long, bruised, and bleeding. Yet, all things happen for a reason. I called up my contacts and retrieved some equipment I had lent out, including a G machine, and I used kinesiotape on it since it was right in the middle, allowing me to still use my knee and hip. I got in touch with Dr. Gloria Weintrob, who lent me a low-level laser to use, and it worked so well that when I saw in a journal that Dr. Ruka and Dr. Murthy were conducting a seminar in Baltimore, I, being just outside of Philadelphia, decided to attend.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s like back in the day

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Back in the day, yeah, it’s been at least probably 20 years, okay. 20 years ago, yeah. So to this day, I’ll feel the dent in my leg. It’s my tattoo, I say, and I thank Nick because that’s my horse’s name. So, before I reveal the big reveal, as I was exploring other options, I’ve been very focused on orthopedics in relation to posture, muscles, balance, and treating yourself as an athlete. But on the other side of that, I go for acupuncture. You know, I recommend acupuncture, I was exploring other energy techniques. This is where I took some courses on visceral manipulation; I was kind of searching for something to complement my practice. And then my horse kicks me in my leg and introduces me to cold laser therapy and all the fantastic offerings that Erchonia has in the seminars and stuff. My horse’s name is Ultimate Machine.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Ultimate machine. That’s amazing. 

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s such a cool story, and thank you for sharing it. I think the listeners can probably hear your voice, but they can’t see the expression on your face or your body language, which says a lot about your pet story. Undoubtedly, it has helped a lot of people and many other animals just by sharing that story. I do believe everything happens for a reason.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Yeah, I’ve had many people who will thank your horse for kicking you.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s right. Yeah, Now, do you work with other chiropractors in the animal space? Additionally, are you involved in teaching, lecturing, or mentoring other chiropractors who are interested in working with animals?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: I do want to ask them, too. In the past, I began delivering lectures to our national organization, the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association, starting in 2012. That’s when I first discussed posture, skin, scar tissue, dents, and dings, topics that have only grown in popularity since then. Over time, I’ve developed various techniques. For example, I’ve created one I call the “Upper Elementary Release.” This technique is crucial when there’s significant scar tissue causing contraction in the neck. While it’s primarily for horses, I’ve performed similar releases on people. The process involves freeing the soft tissue and muscles that can become entrapped around the trachea. This intervention has had profound effects, significantly altering the horse’s posture. I last presented this technique at the AVCA conference in 2018 in Tucson. It involves taking before and after photos of the horses from both sides, then performing this 10 to 15-minute release—or sometimes less—and documenting the remarkable differences. I named it “Upper Elementary Release” because it targets the area around the trachea, close to the horse’s esophagus. This is relevant because horses are susceptible to gastric ulcers, a condition affecting around 70% of horses, competition or not. However, I estimate that 60 to 70% of these horses also have posture-impacting dents, dings, and scar tissue, which could affect the alignment of their internal organs. In fact, I’m scheduled to attend a webinar that may be hosted by an osteopath or osteopathic veterinarian—my apologies for the uncertainty—where the discussion will focus on scar tissue and visceral issues in horses.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: fascinating. Yes, Wow. That’s amazing.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: So, in 2018, I lectured to about 700 farriers and foreshores at the International Healthcare Conference in Ohio. It was a fantastic experience, featuring four PowerPoint screens as I discussed the crucial role of a farrier in maintaining the balance and health of horse feet, which need attention every four to six weeks. This maintenance is vital to prevent the hooves, which grow like fingernails, from causing changes in the animal’s physics due to leverage, which can lead to tearing of the lamina and pain. My lecture focused on posture, the occasional resistance of horses to adopt certain positions, and how, similar to humans developing flat feet when things go awry, a horse’s nervous system can adjust to mitigate this issue. We can employ exercises to address a horse’s flat feet, just as we do for humans.

Segueing slightly, I’ve found the use of heel lifts fascinating. Before utilizing laser technology, examining a person’s pelvis and applying heel lifts were common practices of mine, which could be either a temporary or long-term solution. However, since incorporating the Erchonia laser into my practice, I’ve observed such significant improvements in arch formation post-muscle balancing and adjustments that I seldom resort to heel lifts anymore.

Returning to the conference, the presentation was exceedingly well-received, prompting requests for my return. Although committing to such engagements is substantial, I am eager to collaborate with veterinarians using the Erchonia method and am willing to share all my insights. I have a YouTube channel with around 30 videos that could benefit from better organization, but it serves as a platform for sharing my work.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Are there a lot of animals? And when I say animal chiropractors, are there many that work on them? There aren’t many that work on horses, are there?

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: You know, it’s difficult for me to answer that because you have to consider how many horses there are, right? Like, in comparison, as a human chiropractor, we cater to about 20% of the population. Is that still the case for horses? That’s my best guess. As for horse chiropractic care, I’m not sure of the exact figures. I hold certificate number 52 with the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association, and I understand they might now have up to 6,000 or 7,000 chiropractors. People come from all over the world to get certified. There’s also an International Animal Chiropractic Association. Yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So you’ve been at it for a while, being certificate number 52. That’s impressive. Yes, that’s amazing.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: I started the course I think in 1991 or 1992. I’ve been in practice since 1987.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Wow. Where did you go to school? Logan, okay. And there’s the veterinary, the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association. It sounds like, if you’re doing dissections, this is in-person training.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: In-person training requires you to be a veterinarian or a chiropractor, or to be entering your final semesters or trimesters to take the course. It might now be a 300-credit course, which is quite intense. It was initiated by Dr. Sharon Willoughby, who was one of the pioneers in the field. Contrary to what some might think, she was a veterinarian before becoming a dual-licensed chiropractor. Nowadays, there are many more professionals in this field, which is commendable. It represents a significant commitment in terms of time, education, and financial investment.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s amazing. Well, it’s cool to hear what you’re doing. I mean, what a career. What a cool perspective you have, you know, in terms of seeing the impact of lasers on humans, on horses, and on other animals. That’s amazing.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: I’m very grateful that my mother is a single parent. She gave me the option, which you might not be aware of, but she did. At one point, she asked, “Do you want to find another piano instructor? Do you want to take ballet lessons, or do you want to take riding lessons?” I wanted to do all three, but I knew that wasn’t feasible at a young age. And being of Hungarian descent, I’ve had people not understand my passion for horses. Then they visit Hungary, and they’re like, “It’s in your genes; you can’t help it.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Hungary is a very big course—oh, yes, place. Okay, yes, I’m learning. I know none of this stuff. He or she teaches me all sorts of things. That’s one of the benefits we get from this podcast: talking with people. We learn so many cool stories and insights on stuff I just otherwise wouldn’t know. And so, I love my very nominal experiences. But all of my experiences with horses have been so great. We took our kids a couple of summers ago to Yellowstone, and they had a horseback riding thing. Our kids just had such a good time. Horses are… There’s something just so special about horses, particularly from what I’ve seen with kids. So, and obviously, they’ve got like all these different horse camps for kids with special needs, or kids who’ve dealt with trauma. They use equine therapy, right? Is that what they call it? Yes.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: So going back to what you said, I’m not the best with quotes, but one of our Presidents, Roosevelt, once said, ‘There’s something about the outside of a horse that’s good for the inside of a man.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, what a good cooldown. Yeah.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Yes, back to the riding and stuff. A lot of people think that riding is bad for you, you know, but that’s because they don’t understand that when you learn how to ride, it’s such a beautiful relationship and an athletic endeavor. So, if someone sees a doctor and says, “Oh, you need to stop riding because it’s bad for your back or whatever,” they don’t understand it. And then you just have to say, “Well, why do they have therapeutic riding?” They have therapeutic riding for people who are paraplegics and quadriplegics because it stimulates the spinal cord and reflexes that you can’t activate in any other way. And also, riding is beneficial for emotional support. There’s a larger association called EAGALA (Equine Assisted Growth and Learning Association) that uses horses for people who have trauma. So, there are many different certification programs and opportunities when you go and look for them, physically, mentally, and emotionally, that involve interacting with horses and dogs as well. But there’s just something about horses and what they symbolize. They’ve carried civilizations into battle and done incredible things. In fact, there’s a story about Sergeant Reckless, a horse who made a huge impact during the Korean War. There’s a huge bronze sculpture of her at the World Equestrian Center. She made about 20 journeys in one day, carrying ammunition amidst the chaos of war. Her story is truly remarkable. She was a hero, supplying our troops with ammunition while everything was getting blown up around her. And she did get to come home and retire. It’s a really beautiful story.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I remember when the movies Warhorse and Seabiscuit came out. Both times, for whatever reason, the previews did not appeal to me at all. I thought, “It’s just a movie about a horse or whatever.” But both times, I went and saw the movies, and I was like, “That was the most amazing movie. It was so moving to me.” It’s just funny to me because, on the outside, I’m like, “Man, I don’t care.” But then you watch it, and you’re like, “How can you not be moved by those movies and stories?” It shows you what incredible animals they are and what a beautiful relationship exists between humans and horses, unlike any other animal-type relationship. And that’s cool that you get to be a part of that and play such a significant role. You’re such an early adopter or dare I say, pioneer, in that realm. What a cool career you’ve had. We certainly appreciate you being here with us and taking the time to share that with everybody here.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Well, and I’m so grateful for that. And I’m far from a pioneer from back then. But I think some of my techniques are related to, you know, soft tissue and integrating that. Sure, again, the soft tissue is the nervous system, you know, and we need to work with that. I’m so grateful that my mother allowed me that opportunity. One last little story is that so watching horses form and function, I started to watch people. So from a child, I’ve imitated how people walked. And then my good friend, Dr. Peggy Dillon, was in the fourth with me, and she ended up getting into chiropractic. I never thought I was even going to go to college. But I took college prep courses, and then all of a sudden decided that’s what I was going to do in the short term, but watching the horses form and function, watching people’s form and function and imitating how they walked. You know, it’s just a blessed life that came full circle.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So you have horses to thank for chiropractic college, and horses have you to thank for chiropractic college. Right. It’s a beautiful story. Really, really neat. So that’s awesome. So well. Incredible. Thank you again, so much for sharing that with us. Any final thoughts, Dr. Wells? No.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Just wanted to say thank you for being on this episode. This is a really entertaining episode, if for nothing else. We don’t often hear these kinds of stories. Most podcasts tend to focus on how lasers work and their applications to human beings, and typically musculoskeletal pain. But you really painted a pretty picture of how this amazing technology can be used for animals, improving their lives and those of their riders and athletes. I love how you connected those two. Yeah.

 

Dr. Patricia Bona: Because we are animals. That’s what we forget. You know, and that’s why we have so many issues because we were supposed to be moving. We’re supposed to be active. We’re supposed to have a balance in our lives. Yeah. And to see how it easily affects the horses and the dogs. To not forget that we’re animals and we need to have that physical activity. And yeah

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Great point. Lovely. Awesome. Thank you. Yeah, thank you again, Dr. Pat; we appreciate you being here on this episode with us, and those listening. We hope that this has been really valuable for you as well. And we will catch you all in the next episode. Have a good one. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers, just head on over to our website, Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as our e-community where you can access additional resources for free, including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.

 

About The Guest(s):

Dr. Patricia Bona is a distinguished chiropractor specializing in both human and animal care, particularly focusing on horses. Certified by the American Veterinary Chiropractic Association since 1992, Dr. Bona has pioneered the use of laser therapy for animals, demonstrating its significant benefits for muscle balancing, inflammation reduction, and overall wellness. 

Episode Summary:

In Episode #29 of The Laser Light Show, Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells chat with Dr. Patricia Bona about her unique practice in the chiropractic field, working with both humans and animals, especially horses. Dr. Bona, a pioneer in applying chiropractic care and laser therapy to animals, shares her insights into the benefits and nuances of treating horses, her journey into animal chiropractic, and the profound effects of laser therapy in her practice.

Key Takeaways:

  • Diverse Practice: Dr. Bona has a practice that spans treating humans and a variety of animals, with a significant focus on horses and recently, dogs. Her work is about 60% animal-focused, demonstrating the demand for chiropractic care in the animal world.
  • Impact of Laser Therapy: The discussion highlights the transformative role of laser therapy in treating animals, particularly horses. Dr. Bona discusses how laser therapy aids in muscle balancing, inflammation reduction, and overall wellness, benefiting animals significantly.
  • Human-Animal Connection: Dr. Bona emphasizes the connection between the health of animals and their human counterparts, especially in competitive settings. She points out that while owners often prioritize their animals’ health, they tend to neglect their own, despite the symbiotic relationship affecting both parties’ performance and well-being.
  •  Chiropractic Techniques and Tools: The episode explores the variety of chiropractic techniques and tools used in treating animals, especially horses. Dr. Bona shares her approach to adjustments, the importance of manual therapy, and the integration of laser therapy as a preparation and treatment tool.
  •  Animal Communication and Assessment: Dr. Bona dives into the intuitive process of communicating with and assessing animals, focusing on body language, posture, and response to treatment. This non-verbal communication is crucial for understanding and effectively treating animal patients.    

Quotes:

  •   “There’s something about the outside of a horse that’s good for the inside of a man.” – Dr. Bona highlights the profound emotional and physical connection between humans and horses.
  •  “The laser has been the most profound tool in my practice, benefiting horses, dogs, and humans alike.” – Dr. Bona on the impact of laser therapy.
  • “I consider myself an artist working with a living medium, able to effect significant changes.” – Dr. Bona’s view on her role as a chiropractor for animals.

Episode #28: Lasers in the UK with Dr. Jake Cooke

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on, everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells. In today’s episode, we have a special guest, Dr. Jake Cooke from England, here with us to talk about some amazing experiences he has been having using lasers in his clinic. So, let’s get to it.                          

Transcript

Speakers: 

Dr. Andrew Wells

Dr. Chad Woolner

Dr. Jake Cooke

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show. 

Explore the transformative benefits of Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for athletes in our blog, How Laser Therapy Helps Athletes Physically and Mentally. Learn how LLLT can accelerate recovery, reduce pain, and enhance mental clarity. Dive into the world of laser therapy now!

Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, welcome to the show, everybody, and a special welcome to Dr. Jake Cooke. Thanks for being here with us.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Thank you very much.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So you came all the way from the UK to here. How has it been so far?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Yeah, fantastic. Everything is bigger in America, right? Yes, it’s my first time in Florida, and it lives up to its reputation.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s Awesome. 

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: So, for a little context here, we’ve recorded a previous episode, but we’re currently at Erchonia’s annual business meeting in Florida. We’re recording this episode live at the business event. We have doctors from all over the world who have flown into either speakers or learners, all eager to engage with our incredible mission and product. We aim to facilitate the widespread adoption of low-level laser therapy among doctors and patients. We’re thrilled to have Dr. Cooke on the show here. His extensive expertise and unique perspective are likely to captivate our American audience and establish significant credibility for our podcast.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s right. I already feel smarter just by being on this podcast with you.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: So, that’s what I’m aiming for. Before you ask, I don’t know that. Well, I was about to say I don’t know the queen. I don’t know now, but I don’t know the king either. Not many of those guys. It’s a question that comes up every time.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I wasn’t even thinking about it.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Well, you do know Americans think that if you have an English accent, you’re just a little bit smarter than maybe you actually are and more evil.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s right. That’s the German accent that I think sounds evil, right?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: In every film, is the smart guy who is evil depicted with a British or German accent? I don’t know. Yeah, that’s for sure.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, when I think of English culture, my mind immediately goes to my wife. She adores all things related to Jane Austen, period films, and England. She has wanted to visit England for quite some time. Therefore, we’re planning to make that trip happen. We had planned to go for our 20th wedding anniversary; the idea was to visit England and then travel via the Channel Tunnel to France, possibly exploring other European countries as well. From what I’ve seen, it seems like an incredible place.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: It is amazing. I think we get so much of your media over here, and sometimes we assume the countries are very similar, like England and America being just the same place. But when you visit, you realize celebrities like Cardi B highlight how different things are. You guys have a lot of really fantastic stuff like this. We’re in Orlando right now, right? Yeah, it’s just a giant playground, isn’t it?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, pretty much. 

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: It’s a huge playground. We don’t have anything like that in the UK. But when you come to our place, you’ll see beautiful little villages, towns, and cities that you just can’t imagine. So yeah, you go to Paris, Bruges in Belgium, Amsterdam – it’s just good. I’ve got something that is very hard to replicate because they’ve been built up over such a long period. Yeah.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: We have the cheap imitations of English towns. So, if you go to Universal Studios in Orlando, you’ll see the wonderful Wizarding World of Harry Potter, or whatever. It’s made to look like, yeah, that’s all English to me. I don’t know if that’s supposed to be London, or some other city in England, or whatever. But yeah, we have cheap replicas.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: So I was teaching in Edinburgh, Scotland, a couple of weeks ago. You know, the city that inspired Harry Potter. You walk around the city, and it’s just stunning. So, I remember I took the bus into the city center, and as you approach, you get this superb view of the castle, the crowning jewel at the heart of the Royal Mile. Suddenly, you’re hit with this feeling, ‘This is amazing.’ Yeah, it’s something else. I mean, an architect today couldn’t just design something like that and replicate the same effect. So, you’ve got to go see it for yourself.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Isn’t there a chiropractic college in Scotland?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: I think it’s in development. Okay, so I don’t think I’m going to get loads of hate mail, but I don’t think it’s been launched yet. Has it? I think it’s in development.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: But there is a Cairo school in the UK, correct?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: So, we’ve got the ACC, which is down on the south coast. It’s one of the oldest, over 50 or 60 years old now. Okay, we’ve got a new one in London on the South Bank. Okay, there’s one over in Wales. Okay. So, it’s expanding quite fast. From having one or two for a very long time, we suddenly have four. And then, I think there’s one in Spain. So, yeah, we are far behind you guys in terms of numbers. In the UK, we have the NHS, which provides healthcare free at the point of contact. This means you could get hit by a bus and feel perfectly fine about staying at a hospital because it’s covered. Not that we encourage that kind of behavior, of course. The British Chiropractic Association approached the NHS to try and secure contracts, and the NHS was like, ‘Great, we love what you do. But how many of you are there?’ When we said there are about 3,000, they were like, ‘Well, that’s just not enough. You can come back when you’ve got tens of thousands.’ So, I think that’s probably one of our missions now.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Wow, that’s amazing. Completely different here than in the United States. For sure.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s funny. When I first graduated from chiropractic school, I was going to apply to the state of Wisconsin. I remember getting some emails back saying, ‘No, we’re not doing any. We’re not letting any more chiropractors into the state.’ I was like, ‘What are you talking about?’ They were like, ‘Oh, yeah, we have too many chiropractors here.’ I’m like, ‘Is there such a thing? Why can’t I take the state exam if you’re not going to accept it?’ That’s interesting. So, people in Wisconsin, if you know much about the state, this is not true, but let’s say they’re all healthy. None of them have any kind of musculoskeletal issues. They’re all good. It’s refreshing to hear that a government-sponsored health organization wants chiropractors because that would never happen here. I don’t know. Hopefully, it will. But yeah, that’s interesting.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: We’ve got a unique setup that’s truly interesting when we compare the pros and cons of both systems. The downside is that it’s been underfunded for a long time, leading to its near collapse. Some would argue it has already collapsed, which is why there’s a strong interest in exploring what can be done for improvement. Internationally, the treatment of back pain seems to have been largely unsuccessful. Considering that most people will experience back pain at some point in their lives, and there’s a 60% chance of recurrence within a year, we’d deem any other condition with such statistics a failure. This indicates a need to explore alternative solutions. In the UK, there’s hope for a more open-minded approach, which is one of the aspects that initially attracted me to the use of lasers.

 

Admittedly, I’m terrible at remembering names, but there’s a fantastic speaker currently discussing how the population is sicker than it has ever been. This is a stark contrast to 20 or 50 years ago when reading from the original chiropractors’ manuals, a single adjustment could often be a one-hit wonder for various ailments. Nowadays, it seems rare in my practice to achieve such immediate results with just one session. It’s becoming evident that many of us, like Andrew, who are exploring functional medicine, are doing so because traditional methods are no longer sufficiently effective on their own.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it’s interesting to see—I can’t remember who you’re talking to. But it’s interesting to see that, when you set politics and social issues aside, and you look at socialized medicine, there’s a completely different objective versus the privatized or, you know, kind of more of a capitalistic model. In that, they’re very much of the mindset of necessity—that they’ve got to get results as quickly as possible, as inexpensively as possible, and as effectively as possible because that’s what drives costs down. Right, the metrics that they’re looking at are much different than the metrics associated with a for-profit system. Yeah, you know, it’s different.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Again, considering the pros and cons, one downside is that we may be a bit slow in conducting all the necessary investigations. In contrast, a potential con here is the overenthusiasm leading to excessive diagnostics. For example, instead of opting for a simple X-ray, there might be unnecessary expenditures on diagnostics, such as 5,000 pounds worth of tests including X-rays, ultrasounds, and MRIs. This contrasts with other systems where the financial structure doesn’t support such extensive testing, leading to a rise in the popularity of private care. Since COVID-19, the private healthcare sector, including functional medicine and laser chiropractic services, has seen significant growth. Patients, previously accustomed to receiving these services for free, are now turning to private care, making it an excellent time to be in practice. However, it’s also challenging due to patients’ high expectations based on past experiences, such as miraculous relief from back pain decades ago, which they unfairly compare against current treatments. Yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, how long have you been in practice?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: I think it’s 13 years now.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay. And when did you start using lasers in practice?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Well, that’s a good question. It was probably about four years ago.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Did you get exposure to it in school?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: That’s not the case anymore. I remember hearing about lasers in school, but it was just a casual mention. Then, there was a sports chiropractor. Again, I’m terrible with names and have forgotten his. He came to talk to us about professional cycling, mentioning that they use lasers and that he had a study showing it was comparable to NSAIDs for pain relief. I thought it was interesting, but no one had one, note my actual exposure was through a patient.

So, I work with chronic pain and chronic dizziness, meaning the vast majority of my patients present complex cases. A definitive complex case called me, saying she had severe fibromyalgia with all its worst aspects: not just chronic pain, but cognitive issues, digestive problems, and extreme fatigue. Her pain sensitization was so acute that even gently running a thumb down her spine caused pain, not from pressure, but from the lightest touch. It was truly awful for her.

She contacted me after being recommended, expressing interest in lasers and inquiring if I used them for chronic pain management. To be honest, I knew nothing about it at all. She was familiar with a particular technique and directed me to resources. Subsequently, I consulted with a team in the UK, and we purchased a laser device primarily for her treatment, to see what would happen.

This case was complex, and while I wish the solution was as simple as a single treatment, what the laser therapy provided was an opening. Before, any contact or movement triggered immense pain and inflammation, making any conventional treatment more harmful than beneficial. Simple adjustments would incapacitate her for days. With laser therapy, however, we observed a gradual decrease in her allodynia and pain sensitization. Remarkably, her widespread fibromyalgia pain began to centralize, allowing for periods where physical contact and joint movement became possible without exacerbating her pain.

This shift indicated that the laser treatment was reducing both peripheral and central sensitization, enabling the beginning of strength exercises and active cognitive movements. This, in turn, seemed to enhance pain inhibition from the brain, offering her a pathway back to a more normal life. This experience was my first real indication that the laser was effective, prompting me to further explore its potential and application in treatment.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, what a cool—yeah, well, several things that I think when I hear you tell that story that is cool. Some doctors might think, “Okay, I tried this laser, and it didn’t fix it. Everything rests upon this single solitary tool, and it didn’t fix it. And so, therefore, we’re going to toss it out.” Right? You have the sense, the clinical wherewithal—we’ll call it that—to recognize, you know, when you even kind of hinted at that, that you’re just using this as a tool, as a means to help facilitate other things that need to take place to help this patient. Yeah, absolutely. And so, that’s a huge, fertile ground for doctors listening, a huge clinical nugget that they can take in terms of how to use the lasers. Right? Because I think sometimes, at least for me, in my practice, since I have two lasers that we use at our practice, I think by default I sometimes want it to be more than that, not the way that you’re describing. It’s like, set it and forget it, and then let the laser do its thing, and then hope it works, you know. And you certainly can do that, because obviously, the clearances that have been done show that they have that ability. But again, like you’re talking, you’re not talking about your run-of-the-mill, you know, low back pain or neck pain case; you’re talking about somebody who’s dealing with a lot of other complexities.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: You know, if you were to write down all the processes that you’re fighting against, it’s complicated, right? Yeah, it’s not just, you know, and I think sometimes when I can be critical of laser therapy, sometimes I’m like, I just didn’t do what I wanted to do. But then, when I compare it to other stuff that we use all the time, like spinal manipulation, which we use all day, every day. But how many of your patients, when you do the adjustment, genuinely get up and be like, “Oh, my God, that was the most amazing thing, the pain is completely gone, I can do everything,” right? And if they do, often, they’ll have that response in the moment. But the next morning, they’re waking up, and they’re feeling stiff and achy again. And I feel like sometimes with the laser, you get that immediate effect. And then people ring up and say, “Well, I didn’t do anything because the next day I was so sore.” So, you have it; it’s a process, you’re combating a lot of complex physiology. And so, we’re just trying to stack tools and techniques to try and slowly shift the tide away from it. So, sometimes the way I describe it to patients and other chiropractors is to ignore the complex physics and all the clever stuff that these guys can talk about for hours, but very simply, you’re taking the cell, and you’re trying to shift it from a stress state into a healing state. That’s all it is. The laser works in a completely different way from any manual therapy, soft tissue work, or any strength exercise; it’s working on a completely different level. So, it’s a tool that’s going to help you physiologically take that cell and shift it toward a healing state. And, you know, if you’re looking at the research behind spinal manipulation for that, you have it. How long have I been studying spinal regulation? We can’t say a lot of stuff with confidence, you know, how does it work? We can talk about neural and anatomical pathways, but we don’t know for certain that is actually how it works. Yes, we can look at proprioception and going up the cerebellum, but those are a lot of actually quite theory-based stuff. Whereas when you look at the laser, there’s a lot of research saying, like, we know this is the heart of the mitochondria. Whereas with spinal manipulation, there’s a lot of stuff we think, we think, we think, you know. I saw a paper last week; we think there’s some opioid release. But it’s a, but it’s up in the brain, and there’s lots of other stuff going on, and just human contact can do that, you know, touching someone’s back, you know.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, I think it’s a lot more challenging to develop or design studies around manipulation. We know that, right? You know, how do you differentiate a sham adjustment from a real adjustment? That’s a challenge. And I know they’ve done that; they’ve conducted placebo-controlled studies with manipulation, but it’s far more challenging to do than comparing sham laser versus real laser, you know, exactly.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: And so, one of the neat things about lasers we talk about is that let me start by mentioning one of the negative aspects of laser therapy: you can’t feel it. However, in this case, and for your patient, the benefit was that she couldn’t feel it. My question for you is, if you hadn’t been clever and risky enough from a business standpoint to invest in a laser for this particular patient, would you have any other backup plan? Given that you couldn’t touch her or use many physical modalities, what would have been the next step without laser therapy?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Early on, we tried to make a difference. I’ve saved this for you guys and for listeners at home. I passed the American Chiropractic Neurology Board exams in 2014. Then, I went on to pursue a Master’s in Musculoskeletal Neuroscience, which I believe I finished last year. So, I have a unique neuromuscular approach. However, everything I did for her just relapsed. In the office, she’d be okay, but by the time she traveled home, she’d have a splitting headache. Honestly, I didn’t have any other course of action to consider. Even when I thought I hadn’t done much in the clinic, carefully checking for pupil dilation, changes in heart rate, pulse rate, and blood pressure, I realized we hadn’t done much at all. It almost wasn’t worth coming in; we did so little. Then she’d call and say she had a terrible reaction, having been in bed for three days. It’s probably the worst case I’ve seen, to be honest. It was just devastating, especially for such a young woman, just stuck at home in bed.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s a frustrating thing for patients who have fibromyalgia or have been diagnosed with it because they really get bounced around from provider to provider with really no answers, and they’ve likely already tried a lot of things. These patients often get lumped into the bucket of “well, it’s all in your head” or “it’s a mental issue. We can’t fix this issue.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Have you tried CBT? Have you tried essential oils? Have you tried changing how you think about that pain? So, yeah, sure. But stabbing pain is still a stabbing pain. I can decide it’s…

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: You’re right. Many healthcare providers, and I include myself in this, tend to avoid addressing that patient. Like, let’s just move on to the next patient. And maybe someone else has something that can help this person. Instead, he leaned into it and tried to figure out some solutions. How’s the patient doing now, by the way?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: I haven’t seen her in a long time. I hope she’s doing well. I hope that means she’s doing well and making slow and steady progress. So that was positive.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: And you at least got to a point where you could use physical modalities, and it sounded like she was improving at the point when you were seeing her. Yeah.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Absolutely. And then, from having had that exposure, I think most of us who like using the laser have had a personal kind of impact. So, for me, the big one was when my wife was pregnant with our second child. Unfortunately, in the last 10 days of her pregnancy, she caught sinusitis, so she had this terrible, full headache. My wife’s tough; she gave birth twice without painkillers, so she’s a tough woman. Yeah, she was—I came down one morning, and she was on the sofa, head in her hands, basically couldn’t talk through the pain. It was like 10 out of 10, just horrendous, and the GP was really lovely but basically said, “Look, you’re due any day. There’s no medication we can give you. You’ve just got to hope it goes away.” And I know we’re not really meant to use it on a pregnant woman because we’ve got no studies saying it’s safe; we’ve got no studies saying it’s dangerous either. But I know technically you’re not meant to, but it’s like, this is just madness. I’m doing it. So, I’ve got the EVRL, so ultra-wide and red. We put it on the kind of infection setting, showing it around her sinuses for five minutes. And this is no exaggeration at all. At the end of five minutes, she sat up and said, “My headache is gone. I’ve got some throbbing next to my nose just here, but my headache is gone.” And that, for me, was my kind of first personal one. It was like, that’s really exciting. You haven’t touched, you haven’t done anything to her at all. We’ve just shone it around the sinuses. I think, because, you know, in the third trimester, they can get quite congested. It’s not the road.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, edema.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: So, I think I don’t know whether some aspects were infection and what aspect was maybe just edema, but whatever the laser did, it obviously drained some edema and reduced the pain. And we just used the laser two or three times a day for, I think, only two days. Symptoms all cleared. Wow. Quite miraculous. Yeah, I don’t use that word very often, but that was real. That’s incredible. So, and then we did the same for another, giving out all the little secrets, but she got mastitis as well when she was breastfeeding. I don’t know if you’ve ever seen a woman with mastitis. It’s just awful. The pain is horrendous. You feel so sorry for them. And again, the chief advice was cabbage leaves. You know, I think it was like stewed cabbage leaves.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I have heard that. Yeah, I’ve heard stuff like that. Have you heard that before? 

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. I’ll

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Say that obviously didn’t do anything, but the laser did. So, she used the laser. And because I work with chronic pain, I’m used to seeing immediate changes, like the pain doesn’t hurt as much, or it reduces by half. For example, if someone has whiplash, they might have acute neck pain or chronic neck pain. So, we touch their neck, ask how painful it is, and they might say it’s seven out of ten. You do your laser treatment for a couple of minutes and then touch it again. Normally, they’ll say it’s dropped to about three. With her, when that paralysis occurred, she would use the laser, and at this point, I wasn’t doing the laser at all; I just left her in a room for five minutes. She’d come back and say, ‘Yeah, it’s shrinking again.’ So it’s not in such a wide space, and it’s more tolerable because that pain is horrendous. It just drives you mad, especially when you’re trying to breastfeed a child and look after them. She, in particular, really benefited from having that laser. I have my personal experience too. I like indoor rock climbing, and if you have kids, you know what it’s like trying to make new friends. There’s a guy who lives across the street with a child the same age, and we got chatting. I invited him to try climbing, and during my warm-up, I was being careless and didn’t warm up properly. I tried to show him some moves, but my foot slipped off the wall, and I strained my glutes. It was horrible. Normally, if I were on my own, I would have gone home, but since I was with my new friend, I decided, ‘Let’s climb for an hour.’ Getting home, standing up, sitting down, walking—I was yelping. The pain was like seven or eight, really awful. I went to bed thinking the next day would be worse. So, I lasered it about three or four times during the day. Honestly, I didn’t feel a difference after each session. I thought, ‘This is going to be horrible. I might even have to take my first day off from work ever.’ I’ve been very lucky not to have had an injury the day before. I went to bed with the pain at seven or eight and woke up in the morning, and it was probably a two or three. I could put on my socks and get dressed by myself. My wife had to take my socks off for me the night before. That personal experience was like, ‘Well, that shouldn’t have happened,’ in terms of physiology and stuff. It should have been a night of inflammation and swelling and just a horrendous morning. So, that was cool.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s amazing. Yeah, so, I mean, that’s the thing I would say that’s so cool about these. I mean, among other things, it really opens up a window of opportunity. Right, you know, that here, you were able to, you know, we, I think, sometimes set unrealistic expectations with what we’re expecting in terms of outcomes and things like that, for what we define as successes. And clearly, you’re active, really active, you know, rock climbing, and things like that. But put this into perspective. For the average patient, let’s just say, if they’re dealing with pain that is sufficiently debilitating to where they can’t put their socks on, a huge win for them is being able to put their socks on unaided, you know what I mean? That’s a huge win. And that’s very meaningful to people, especially when we’re dealing with people in an older population, where all of a sudden, mobility is it and, you know, just basic ambulation is a challenging thing for them. They’re not looking to, you know, compete in a marathon or a triathlon or go rock climbing or anything; they’re just looking to function, you know, if you can help restore function, that’s a huge thing. Yeah.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: A big part of what I’m trying to do at the moment is ask patients what they called us for. You know, if there’s one thing I could do for you, what would it be? Or what is your goal for coming here? What are you hoping to achieve? The immediate answer is always “get rid of the pain” or “get rid of the dizziness.” What I’m trying to do now is dig into that a bit more. Okay, great. So if I had a magic wand, bam, done. Is there anything you’d be doing tomorrow that you’re not doing today? Then again, they’ll give you some wishy-washy answer, but I’m trying to find out what the deeper reason is. Why are you paying for healthcare now rather than just waiting for the NHS? Why is this so important? I get that the pain is unpleasant, but what is it stopping you from doing? Normally, it comes down to “I can’t play with my kids.” So dads say, “I feel old, I can’t lift my kid up, I can’t play football with them—I mean soccer. I can’t play soccer with them.” And moms say, “I feel like a terrible mom, you know, I can’t look after my kids properly.” Older people say, “I can’t go for a walk outside. You know, I feel old. I didn’t feel old.” I think that’s something the laser is very good at. It just shows them the potential very quickly. And that’s what we’re going to be doing over the next few weeks or months, especially with acute injuries. You know, someone who’s got acute low back pain, you can make a difference quite quickly. It can be quite exciting. And you’re right about managing expectations, but it’s quite exciting when you can palpate something and it really is a nasty, sharp pain, and then you shine a laser on it, do nothing else, give it another poke, and they’re like, “Does that same place hurt?

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: It’s putting graduates.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, what do you foresee in terms of the future for your clinic using lasers, beyond musculoskeletal pain? What are you currently using them for, and what do you foresee?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: So I think when you’re in the clinic, you get pulled in many different directions. I try to be primarily a clinician before a researcher, but I also make time to conduct extensive literature reviews regularly. When I see a patient I’m struggling to help, I use that as a critical clinical question to guide my research. One of the reviews I’m currently conducting is on migraine progression, specifically, the factors that convert episodic migraine into chronic migraine. We define chronic migraine as experiencing a headache more than 15 days a month, which is quite severe—essentially having a headache every other day. Now, I understand what the laser does for pain, and I want to explore its effects on migraines and other conditions. I work a lot with dizziness and see many patients with vestibular migraine and conditions like vestibular neuritis. I’ve been using the laser through the ear to reach the vestibular system, but I haven’t thoroughly researched the scientific support for this approach. It seems to be working well, but I’m interested in delving deeper into what the laser can do for these various conditions. Sometimes, I think it improves metabolism, right? It enhances mitochondrial function. It’s not a cure-all, but almost; it doesn’t matter what the condition is because you can try this one.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s going to be the foundational premise and mechanism of what makes it work that is part of what makes it so exciting. And I dare say I understand exactly what you’re saying; I dare not claim that it’s a panacea by any means. But the mechanism is so foundational that there is a solid rationale for using it for a very, very wide range of different types of conditions and problems that people present with.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Yeah, absolutely. I think I am in my clinic. So, I always look at what other people are doing. For the first ten years of my career, I basically went and observed a lot of people and asked many wiser and more successful individuals, ‘What would you do if you did it again?’ In the UK, it’s a very different market compared to America. The answer that always came back was, ‘Go solo, and be really lean for maximum profits with really no fat,’ or ‘Open three or more clinics.’ So, you either want lots of clinics and people, then you’ve got enough income that other people can do work for you, and you’re not, you know, working at both clinics if you have only two, running between both, answering the phone sometimes, and doing the marketing and stuff like that. They’re like, ‘Three or more clinics.’ So, I went lean, which has been great. But I think probably in the next few years, we’ll get to the stage where we’ve maybe outgrown that space. And that’s where I think maybe having something like the FX, you know, having something where we can have one room come in laser for however long treatment and other rooms, something like that. I don’t have the space for it where I am now. But maybe, I think that’s probably where I’d like to go. Yeah, my wife’s accountant. She was also, when we got married, our best friend. So, we did such a cliché. My best female friend got married, and it was her oldest friend. So, basically we met at a wedding, and then got married. So, our best friend gave a speech at our wedding. And she called us the dreamer and the planner. And I’m the dreamer, and my wife is the planner. So, the one frustration we have with each other is I’ll get really excited. So, after this weekend, I can tell you, I’m gonna go down this path: ‘This guy, that guy, this guy. Oh, what do we do?’ and she’s gonna just get it straight away. And she’ll start firing for perfectly reasonable reasons why we should not be doing that. And then I get frustrated because I’m like, ‘Yeah.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, she keeps the parameters in place. Yeah,

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: We’ll say a long time ago. 

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s good expectations. That’s good. That’s amazing. Well, it sounds like you’re doing some incredible things at your clinic and helping a lot of people over there in England. And yeah, it’s been really cool having you here.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Dr. Cooke, Erchonia is making a push to have a bigger presence with low-level laser therapy in the UK and Europe. Are you seeing the use of laser therapy pick up? Or do you see it as being a bigger part of not only the private sector in UK healthcare but also, do you ever see this becoming a part of the National Health System?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: And I see what a digression it is becoming more popular. So, you’re definitely hearing about more clinics having lasers. I think one of the difficulties we have at the moment over there is the confusion between LED and laser. Same here in the US. Yeah, yeah. And so, you know, I had a patient the other day say, “I’ve had a laser.” I was like, “Okay, which clinic did you go to?” And you look, and it’s one of these full-body LED things. Um, like, it’s not saying that doesn’t work, but it’s not the same. You know, and the research is different, you know, if we’re looking at one working through heat, and one working through light, and they have different mechanisms involved. I think that’s probably where we have the difficulty is that you know, a patient the other day used the laser, and then he sends me an email saying, “I found one on eBay.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, geez.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: No, you haven’t. It looks the same, right? No, it’s not. 

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Does it admit a color of light?

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Yeah, that’s literally a torch. A torch is not the same. Yeah. And I think that’s the challenge we have, and I actually think the accounting team in the UK is very good at pushing research. They’re really good at it. So Simon always says that we don’t care what you decide to purchase; we don’t care. You know what, but we just want to educate you on why you’re purchasing that one, you know, the difference between them. So, I think it is more popular, but I don’t think there are as many true lasers; I think the majority of them are cheap LEDs, and they have their time and place, but they’re not the same. Whether it’ll be on the NHS or not, the NHS is very slow to adapt to new things. I can’t remember the time frame. It’s something ridiculous, like 20 years from research to application or something like that.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, there was a study that we’ve cited. I think it was Cambridge, if I’m not mistaken, wasn’t it? The title of the study was “The Answer is 17 Years. What’s the Question? The Lag Between Research and Implementation in an Actual Real-World Clinical Setting.” And so that’s exactly right. You know, I don’t think that’s just a UK thing. I think that when it comes to seeing the translation of what is understood from a research level to being adopted into mainstream medicine, just globally and in general, we tend to see those same types of lags. So, unfortunately, that’s just the way it is, to a certain extent.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: I think part of the difficulty we face, as well as when looking at the research, is that it’s quite muddy. This is because researchers have done such a poor job differentiating between the different wavelengths and frequencies and all that kind of stuff. So, when you look at a paper stating there was a positive or negative correlation, you realize the range of devices used, or different methodologies, complicates matters. For example, systematic reviews in laser research are quite hard to derive value from due to these inconsistencies.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Such a vast array of different types of settings. And, but that’s..

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Saying it’s all you know, does it work for a literature review on TMJ I was doing not so long ago? Does it work? And then one systematic review says yes, analysis, no. And you look at what papers are included, they’re all over the place. So, you kind of feel like the industry needs to have stricter definitions of this is what this one does. This is what we call it. And then when you do research, you know, maybe the laser guys stick with phototherapy.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, even just having a commonly accepted nomenclature in terms of names and terms would be helpful. So, thank you again for taking time out of your schedule to be here. We’re excited. This is going to be a really fun weekend. And it has already been a ton of fun chatting with you about this and hearing your experiences firsthand. Anything else you wanted to add, Doctor?

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: No, just thank you. Thanks for being on the show. This is great. And we’d love to have you on again for another episode sometime down the road. So thank you very much for your time.

 

Dr. Jake Cooke: Hey, thanks for having me. It’s been a real pleasure. And I’d love to come back. 

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: We will definitely have a yes. So, alright, doctors and patients, thanks for listening. I hope this has been valuable. We’ll talk to you guys in the next episode. Have a good one. Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There, you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as our Erchonia e-community where you can access for free additional resources, including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening, and we will catch you on the next episode.

 

About The Guest(s):

Dr. Jake Cooke is a prominent figure in the field of chiropractic care from England, recognized for his innovative use of laser therapy in his practice. He has a background in chronic pain and dizziness management, making him particularly adept at handling complex cases. Dr. Cooke’s career spans over 13 years, with the last four dedicated to integrating laser therapy into his treatments. His academic achievements include passing the American Chiropractic Neurology Board exams and obtaining a Master’s in Musculoskeletal Neuroscience. Dr. Cooke’s unique expertise and approach to patient care, especially his use of laser therapy for various conditions, including fibromyalgia and migraines, underline his significant contribution to chiropractic medicine.

Summary:

In episode #28 of “The Laser Light Show,” hosts Dr. Chad Woolner and Dr. Andrew Wells interview Dr. Jake Cooke, exploring his groundbreaking work with laser therapy in the UK. Dr. Cooke shares his journey into the world of laser therapy, beginning with a challenging patient case of severe fibromyalgia. His successful integration of laser treatments in clinical practice showcases the potential of low-level laser therapy (LLLT) in addressing chronic pain, inflammation, and a host of other conditions. The discussion also touches on the differences between healthcare systems in the UK and the US, the expansion of chiropractic education in the UK, and the potential for laser therapy to be recognized and adopted by the National Health Service (NHS).

Key Takeaways:

  • Innovative Use of Laser Therapy: Dr. Cooke’s application of laser therapy, particularly in complex chronic pain conditions like fibromyalgia, illustrates the versatility and effectiveness of LLLT in clinical practice.
  • Challenges and Solutions in Healthcare: The conversation highlights the challenges faced by the NHS in adopting new treatments like laser therapy, contrasting with the more rapid adoption in private healthcare sectors.
  • Education and Expansion: The growth of chiropractic education in the UK, including new colleges and programs, suggests an expanding field with increasing opportunities for practitioners.
  • Personal and Patient Success Stories: Both Dr. Cooke’s personal experiences and his patients’ success stories serve as compelling testimonials to the benefits of laser therapy.

Quotes:

  • Before any contact or movement triggered immense pain and inflammation, making any conventional treatment more harmful than beneficial… With laser therapy, however, we observed a gradual decrease in her allodynia and pain sensitization.” – Dr. Jake Cooke
  • It’s a process, you’re combating a lot of complex physiology… you’re taking the cell, and you’re trying to shift it from a stress state into a healing state.” – Dr. Jake Cooke
  • What I’m trying to do now is dig into that a bit more… ‘What is your goal for coming here? What are you hoping to achieve?’ Normally, it comes down to ‘I can’t play with my kids.’… I think that’s something the laser is very good at. It just shows them the potential very quickly.”- Dr. Jake Cooke

Best Tibial Fracture Postoperative Pain Reduction Techniques

4-Minute Read

Tibial fractures are without a doubt a high-damage injury with the need for intensive rehab. Given that the tibial plateau is one of the key bone structures that support the body’s weight, it is imperative to partake in any physical activity such as walking, running, or jumping. Patients recovering from this type of injury can have difficulty doing everyday tasks. A fracture of the tibial plateau is usually caused by a high-energy impact and on most occasions, requires surgery.

Below we will answer some frequently asked questions about tibial fracture recovery and pain management.

Who is most often afflicted by tibial fractures? 

Tibial bone fractures are among the most common long bone fractures seen in 4% of the senior population. This is often due to falls and other accidents. Tibial fractures are also a common sports-related injury among athletes engaging in sports heavy on running and jumping or ​​contact sports such as football, soccer and rugby. Injuries of the tibial bone are also often seen in young children. It is a common pediatric fracture as young children are at risk of breaking limbs even when low force is applied at the time of injury. 

How long is tibial plateau fracture recovery time?

For tibial fractures of non-displaced bones, recovery may take three to four months without surgery to heal. For displaced tibial plateau fractures, or when surgery is required, recovery may take around four to six months. 

As with any major surgery, postoperative pain is a common complication that can in turn lead to potentially delayed recovery. In one study, of 267 patients with tibial shaft fractures, 147 (55.1%) reported chronic post-surgical pain after one year of surgery. As pain is a natural stressor, it stimulates physiological and psychological responses in the body. As the patient attempts to recover, these responses can cause postoperative complications and have a direct effect on the patient’s recovery time.

What techniques are available to reduce post tibial fracture operation pain?

Treatment for tibial shaft injuries is generally operative in cases where the bone has been misplaced however, techniques such as physical therapy can aid patients during the process of healing and postoperative pain management. A physical therapist will recommend exercises and treatments to restore the patient’s mobility and alleviate the pain of the patient as much as possible. Therapist will focus on restoring the patient’s joint range of motion and reactivating the leg muscles. However, note that each injury and individual’s healing journey will be different, so recovery time will vary. Physical therapy is also limited when it comes to postoperative pain reduction. It can assist in reducing inflammation and calming the patient’s pain in the long term, however, physical therapy does not itself target the patient’s pain. 

Low-level laser therapy (3LT®) is a modern technology that is being used in the field of medicine to treat sport injuries and musculoskeletal disorders. 3LT® is a laser treatment that is a professional’s preferred option for pain killing and wound healing. 

How does low-level laser therapy work?

3LT® uses irradiation with laser light of low intensity, without utilizing heat. This nonthermal technology causes a photochemical reaction in individual cells that alters cell membrane permeability, leading to increased mRNA synthesis and cell proliferation. In other words, 3LT®reduces edema and inflammation after surgery. 3LT® can even be used during surgery to decrease pain during and after operation. One study found that laser radiation at wavelengths of 650 and 808 nm can decrease postoperative pain and analgesic use in the postoperative period.

3LT® is a proper postoperative pain reduction technique. It is completely safe, painless (of course), and noninvasive. This is why it is easily accepted b y patients and providers alike. If you would like to learn more about this technology, read our blog on how this technology really works. You may also contact Erchonia today to learn more about how our 3LT® treatment can transform your postoperative experience.

How Erchonia Low Level Laser Therapy Works

Episode #27: Lasers in Acupuncture with Dr. Dustin Dillberg

Dr. Andrew Wells: Hello and welcome to The Laser Light Show, this is episode #27. This is Dr. Andrew Wells, with special guest Dr. Dustin Dillberg and today we’re going to be talking about lasers in acupuncture.

Transcript

Speakers: 

Dr. Andrew Wells

Dr. Chad Woolner

Dr. Dustin Dillberg

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show. 

 

Explore the transformative benefits of Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for athletes in our blog, How Laser Therapy Helps Athletes Physically and Mentally. Learn how LLLT can accelerate recovery, reduce pain, and enhance mental clarity. Dive into the world of laser therapy now!

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Dr. Dillberg, welcome to the show. Great to have you here, my friend.

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: Happy to be here. Thank you.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: So we were just talking a little bit offline before we hit the record button. And I think this is going to be a really interesting episode. And I think this is what we’re going to dive into obviously, as the title would suggest Lasers and acupuncture. But there’s a lot we can talk about here. And so to kick it off, maybe Dr. Dillberg, if you can just kind of give us a little bit of a background on who you are, what you do, where you’re from, and we’ll start there.

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: I am a doctor of Chinese medicine and acupuncture. I was raised and still practicing in the land of Hawaii, thanks to my father. He’s a chiropractor who has really interesting experiences that led him to be exposed to and get into Chinese medicine as well, ultimately becoming an acupuncturist himself. But I was just raised in this clinic, similar to the way my boy is in my clinic, crawling around full rugrat, I was. That’s the earliest memory I have; just in my dad’s practice. And I still have an interesting flashback to an experience watching him bring in a woman who wasn’t even able to walk through the threshold, a tiny little threshold in the doorway, in excruciating pain with a walker. And it just kind of rocked my world when I was young, as I was sitting at this little desk, definitely right next to me right now, coloring and watching an inadequate like this woman in agony, walk back to the treatment room, come out, probably 45 minutes later – my attention span was way shorter than that, I was already on to a whole different coloring book, but watched her walk out, walk around her back, laughing and with tears of joy, just this huge impact. And I remember like coming out of Superman, you know like a completely different person was transformed out of that woman that came into her office. And I wanted to be a part of that. And thankful for his experience, his past, his mind, and his willingness to kind of think outside the box and push hard to integrate new techniques that hadn’t been joined together before and just kind of formed my mind into thinking that’s just the only way to do things. And so I continued to follow in his footsteps. After I was hit by a car when I was seven, I had terrible whiplash, ligament damage throughout my spine, hip, and shoulder issues, and a lot of it went semi-undiagnosed because I was young and I bounced back and I wanted to go jump on the trampoline shortly after the accident, which I was unconscious for quite a while. You know, kids bounce right back, but later on, with a migraine setting in and the limitations in athletics and things like that, that were found, it was evident that I needed a lot more work and luckily, he had amazing mentors. Dr. Gilbert Yvonne was able to work on me and impact my life. He took me under his wing and taught me a ton of stuff, as well as some of the DCM mentors and other techniques. So it’s just been a really fun experience. I’m proud and happy to be a second-generation practitioner. And yeah, just bring more new things into this amazing clinical experience that we get to identify, you know, what works best for that individual patient, what works best for that individual situation or case, and identifying the way that one plus one doesn’t always have to equal two, that there’s a synergistic value between multiple treatments. And that’s certainly something that I found later there. It’s just undeniable.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, I found what you mentioned. So your dad was a chiropractor. Was he also into Chinese medicine, or was he just kind of like a classic chiropractor who would experiment and dabble in different things?

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: He knew he wanted to be a chiropractor at a very young age, as well as after having an experience where a chiropractor helped him after a baseball injury right there on the field. And so he’s really interested, he was like, head down, that know what his future had in store for him. And as he went to high school, was able to get his car back to school really quick and early. So they went to Cleveland Chiropractic School. The way the story goes, the first day that you go into the bookstore, to buy all your books, you have to do your readings prior to your first day of class and all that kind of stuff. You notice an elderly gentleman, in his, like, early 60s, he was Korean, and he wasn’t getting treated very well. I mean, this is way back in the 70s. And there was a certain level of racism and things like that, that surrounded the Asian population in certain areas. And so this gentleman was just frustrated, you didn’t know why he was being treated this way. And he was just trying to get his books, he didn’t speak English very well. So people were scoffing at him and things like that my dad just happened to have a soft spot in his heart for him that day, look at his schedule. And we have like three of the same classes. Let’s take a look at you have all the same classes, but three of them, I’ll actually be in at the same time, follow me around with grab all the same books, and I’ll let you know, on your way, they grabbed all the books, he led this gentleman, his name was Mr and go before him in the lines. And they, for some reason, didn’t want to accept his personal check. He didn’t have enough cash to cover it. He was 20 bucks short. And my dad was like, Alright, I’m a starving student. He already had my older brother at the time. He was very concerned about just cash flow as he entered chiropractic school. And he said, here’s 20 bucks, or more, I forget exactly how much less but here’s 20 bucks, but I will find you if you don’t give me this that my dad is like, high school wrestling guy. And you know, the whole, the chiropractor that I Joker has way too many similarities to CrossFitters these days, which I love and adore. But um, so he’s just jacked. Basically high school kids and I will find you if you don’t give me my money back. And they said, Thank you, you paid for his books in cash waiting outside for him, I’d have no idea waiting for him, went through it paid for his books walked outside in the stone. And it happened to say you were, you know, an American that showed me great gratitude, or just like kindness. And for that, I will let you be my people. And my dad looked at him and said, You’re entering school dude at the same time as I am. I’m like, 18, 19, I think I’m alright. But thank you so much. I just remember the basket eventually. But go ahead. And you know, thanks. It turned out this guy was the grandson of one of the last emperors as a Korea’s personal physician. So that went down the lineage in this family. So he was basically born and bred to be a practitioner or a doctor. And he has Korea changed in their political environment. He was sent off at an early age to become westernized through the different countries. So he’s spent time actually treating and spending time with royal families all over the world. But he spoke like eight different languages in English, this wasn’t his strong suit. He had an immense amount of knowledge in medicine in traditional means and a number of other techniques. And when he came to the US, he was very, very fearful. Like most acupuncturists actually have been, as they brought acupuncture and Chinese medicine into the US, very fearful of being deported, being attacked for going against standardized Western medicine going against the standard of the American Medical Association. They wanted to be really quiet, really respectful, and careful of doing anything and so he realized that he wasn’t able to practice in California without a license and degree of some nature and so he started looking into what intrigued him because he could have went and got a degree in acupuncture with his eyes closed or taught at the school and probably had an honorary degree, but this neurology in this brain-based stuff In this terrible practice, you know, the physics and the, the anatomical understanding was so much greater than what he knew. He wanted to study that. So that’s why he was going back to school. And he actually somewhat by force pushed my dad into like, No, you’re going to be an acupuncturist as well, you’re gonna blend these things together. And so, back in the 70s, there weren’t that many people that were, you know, had dual degrees, and chiropractic and acupuncture, and my father was literally one of them.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s an amazing story. Wow, that’s incredible. Okay, so I totally understand why you’re an acupuncturist now. Yeah, it’s so your dad. So he started then from his initial education as a chiropractor and learned acupuncture along the way.

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: And really, his mindset is still that way. Once you’re a chiropractor, you’re a chiropractor first, right? And so his mindset is still incredible. And he does everything with a chiropractic focus and supports it with acupuncture. Actually, when I was going through a lot of my work with Dr. Brock Pettibone, I was enrolled in Elysee, which turned into Southern California Health Sciences, in the chiropractic program. And around dinner, your uncle, as he was visiting my dad, pretty proudly, he was like, ‘Hey, girl, ask Dustin what he’s got in his future.’ And so the girl asked me, and Dr. Pettibone, like, ‘I’m really proud of him, accepted into the school, I’m going to be a chiropractor, and I’m going to go through a dual program of chiropractic and acupuncture.’ And he kind of chuckled. He was in the process of starting his own chiropractic program at that point as well and had a very specific way that he wanted things taught and things like that. And he actually told me some experiences that he had, studying Chinese medicine and the five-element theories and things like that. He’s like, ‘I think you can do everything that you would ever want to do, and potentially more if you work under an acupuncture license rather than a chiropractic license.’ And this.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: This came from Dr. Yvonne. Yeah. Wow. Okay.

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: He taught me how to go to chiropractic school.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Wow, that’s crazy.

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: I am very thankful it hasn’t worked out exactly the way he described in terms of every state having their unique situations, there’s scope of practice issues, no matter what industry you’re in if you go from state to state and all of that. But overall, it has kind of opened up opportunities for me in very unique and neat ways. While I was going through medical school, I was still going through his curriculum and under his tutelage, and he was challenging my way outside the scope of what my brain could handle at the time to just push me into thinking differently. And so, I went through and I must say that I have more of an acupuncturist-first mindset because I talked to my dad and my mind works, TCM first, Cairo second, and he works out with first TCM, second, we just have some interesting dancer in the way that things are discussed or thought of. But yes, it’s kind of neat that like, actually, it was mentioned, I think, in one of the podcasts that you did with Brock, and Trevor, and the late-night one, they were talking about the friend that went back and got the MD, which I actually considered myself and like when you enter into a new scope of practice, sometimes there are limitations to what you can or should do. And I’m actually really used to being an acupuncturist in the state of Hawaii, and in the US.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s an amazing story. Thank you for sharing that. It’s interesting when you look at natural healthcare providers, whether it’s a chiropractor, acupuncturist, Chinese medicine, nutritionist, or naturopath, there’s a lot of fluidity between the philosophies, and the approach to health. The tools that we use, and the techniques that we use are very, I find, very interchangeable. Except when you get into the medical field where it’s very, very strict protocol-driven systems. Not that we don’t use protocols, we do. But yeah, you’re exactly right. There’s a lot of limitations there. And I think healthcare started off that way, where you just had a bunch of really smart people that were really interested in helping people get healthy and had some really good, lots of really good tools that they would use interchangeably and not so specialized. And I think we’ve very much gotten away from that in healthcare, except for chiropractic and acupuncture. I think we’re like the two healthcare professions that are still kind of looked at in a little bit of a funny way because we don’t just do one thing. We’re not like a one-trick pony. And that’s yeah, I can help people that way. Yeah, yeah. Can’t leave them out. Yeah, absolutely. Right. And yeah, and I think my gut is that we’re actually trending back toward that. I think that patients, especially, are starting to realize that we’re not just a bag of chemicals that can be adjusted up or down or left or right to treat symptoms, we’re actually a vitalistic being that’s more than just chemical reactions and physical reactions, that there’s something a lot more to health. And so, you know, and maybe you just got to get to talk to smart doctors, like you think and act the same way. But I, you know, I think I’m seeing our profession grow in ways that I didn’t even see 10 years ago when I first started. And I think it’s patient-driven. You know, I think docs like us do a good job and our professionals do a good job of educating patients. And I think it’s coming around, hopefully.

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: I agree. And it’s not just, you know, the bag of chemicals. But it used to be seen as a bag full of individual bags of chemicals, where your serotonin levels were uniquely individualized, they’ve had nothing to do with the rest of it. And so if we just influenced one chemical that would change that. And it’s just, that we know that everything’s connected. And we’ve known that for a long time, we’ve gotten distracted or skewed away from that idea. But we’re coming back full circle, the pendulum starting to swing it sure seems like again, and it’s so fascinating and interesting to me, with just the history of that you just heard, to now see, tools that used to get laughed at, when I would, I would pull out a, you know, a wash off tool, it’s like a piece of bone or, you know, metal, and somebody is like, you’re gonna scrape that on me, it’s going to do something like, Are you kidding me? And now that is like a very common tool, or cupping, or, you know, you’re gonna put a needle in me that has nothing in it, like me full of syringe, right? And now dry needling is one of the fastest-growing things in medicine. And these are things that have been tried and true for thousands of years. Maybe even up to like 7,000 years or older. Like it’s incredible data. That’s tried and true, right? Yeah, yeah. It’s coming back full circle into like, you want to know the coolest, newest, hottest thing in medicine. We’re gonna stick a needle in, you are gonna throw a cup, a suction cup on you. And Olympians are gonna rock it all over. It was pretty funny.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, that’s right. I always say, with Erchonia lasers, it’s kind of a shame that you can’t see any burn marks on people’s skin, because you don’t know that you’ve had it done. And that’s like that. I would lump laser into that therapy as well because you have laser done on you. And it’s like, is it working? I can’t feel it. It’s not tingling yet. And patients haven’t seen like, yeah, it’s just, it’s just light

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: We can just put a stamp like a rubber stamp at the right next to the laser, and then just stamp it at the end just so people have evidence. That’s beautiful.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I love that. Yeah, that’s exactly right. It’s nice that it doesn’t have any evidence. But it’s like, yeah, it’s not a very good marketing tool. In that respect, is it?

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: That’s the truth. And, truthfully, you don’t need to show all those bruises or marks from scraping or copying to have an effective result either. But it’s almost become like that, like, put it on a little longer. Everybody will see it.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, that’s right. Yeah, it’s at the CrossFit gym, and you have your tank top on. It’s like one of those marks. It’s like it’s the best advertising tool. It’s like, oh, you’ve never done cupping, you should go do it. And then yeah, every now and then everybody else starts showing up with the leopard print on their skin. So maybe you can share, you were sharing with me before we started the recording that you also do some teaching and lecturing. What does that look like? How are you involved in educating other providers?

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: But in my heart is the ability to train, impact, and change the future of our profession as much as possible. Being just one guy on a little spot of a rock in the middle of the ocean and being quite removed from a lot of the seminars and conferences, symposiums just due to location, has really empowered me and got me excited and pumped to be able to teach others. Being able to influence how other doctors are then able to teach or impact their patients that much faster hits the nail on the head for me. I feel blessed and privileged to be able to talk and speak all over the place for a number of different entities. For example, Pacific College of Health Sciences and their acupuncture program, as well as their other awesome programs. Also, Zymogen Nutraceuticals and Erchonia for breast belts, which is one of my favorite tools. Teaching, at this point, for me has been primarily in seminars, conferences, symposium setups, and some intensives like week-long intensives, and things like that. However, I’ve always wanted to have more of an impact in terms of potentially having more resources online, whether that’s a training program or something along those lines, and publishing a couple of the books that I’ve been working on for a long time. So, there’s more in the future, I’m sure. But right now, I just travel around and speak and influence, trying to encourage and motivate.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s amazing. Now, when I think of acupuncture, traditionally, I don’t think of laser therapy. And so I’m kind of curious, and it almost seems like there’s a little bit of a yin and yang there, where it’s, I think, when I think acupuncture, I think thousands of years old, very traditional type of approach. And then when I think of laser therapy, I think of futuristic technology, and I don’t necessarily think of those I know how they fit together. But I’m just kind of curious how you brought those two modalities together.

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: It does seem, yeah, which is kind of special, right? The balance of opposites is amazing. And I think it’s certainly needed in the more traditional medicines, ancient medicine, and that we need to bring them up to speed and utilize the new tools, which has happened quite a bit actually. And so there’s actually a movement just to take a small step back, there’s a little bit to change the perception and understanding of what acupuncture is because acupuncture is really just one technique within the system of medicine that is a complete system that is something that utilizes so many different tools, from hands-on, you know, bodywork massage between our shiatsu cupping gua sha, the herbs, a lot of the investigation or examination, processes of tongue diagnosis and post-diagnosis and seeing the body of an integrated unit where one aspect influences and changes all the other components of the body. It’s such a beautiful functional medicine, I see it fitting that functional medicine paradigm perfectly from 1000s of years old. And it’s also used, including most of the major tasks, such as acupuncture or what we call complementary acupuncture and moxibustion. And moxibustion was a huge part of acupuncture and Chinese medicine. Moxibustion is for those that don’t know, like that cigar-looking around the rule that people would light on fire and burn, and it emits oddly enough wavelengths between 400 and 1000 nanometers, that are influencing the tissue on a cellular level on what we would always see a meridian and acupuncture and neurological impact, changing the potentiation of healing. And being able to, in a simple way of providing free energy provides warmth and vitality to a tissue and a system that is deficient and you can even treat access with that type of power and energy. And so, the way I see it, the same way our needles have changed over the years, you know, acupuncture needles that have been found in tombs and new Egypt have been found in the pyramids, used to be made of certain materials that we no longer use, we use, you know, surgical stainless steel at this point, right? We should also update our tools and other ways. I think the updated Moxa literally is laser therapy. It’s as simple as that. If you know how to provide acupuncture or moxibustion, you know how to use laser therapy, you can influence the acupuncture points with that laser. It’s been proven in so many studies. Now, it’s been really effective for changing all sorts of things from all of the traditional uses for acupuncture points, centers on the foot being able to treat liver three. For eye disorders, you can do that with a laser. If someone is very needle phobic, you’re dealing with pediatrics that are going to try and kick you or scream. When you get anywhere near them with a laser or a needle. You can use a laser really effectively. We know that there was a study that showed pericardium six changing heart rate variability and neurological function and brain changes just by lasering with the 405-nanometer wavelength P six, which is that point that a lot of people know of as being kind of that C stickiness point or motion sickness points that those pressure points things that they sell on the counter gas stations and things like that. You laser that point, and you actually have a profound and systemic, neurological shift and change that optimizes the body. So acupuncture and lasers, I think fit in better than lasers in just about anything else that I’ve ever come across. It’s already been built into our medicine for 1000s of years, already trained on how to use it, it’s just a new tool that needs a brief introduction and owner’s manual, or use as my you gotta know how to turn this one on instead of lights the tip with a flame.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: When we first discovered low-level laser therapy, when Dr. Woolner and I discovered it, we were like, ‘Wow, why?’ And as chiropractors, we were like, ‘Why isn’t this in every chiropractic practice around the world? It just made way too much sense for us.’ It’s like, here’s an easy, simple way, just like you were describing, to affect tissue at a local level, at a systemic level, on an energetic level, to help improve their outcomes. And we were just, you know, we kind of stumbled across it, but just by accident. And my question for you is, in Chinese medicine and for acupuncturists, why, I guess, why isn’t this in more practices? And are you seeing any kind of resistance there to adopting things like laser therapy?

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: I am? It’s a great question. There has been far more resistance than I expected in terms of introducing laser therapy. I think a lot of it is because the acupuncture profession, as we kind of mentioned, was very careful, scared, and worried. One of the biggest pushbacks I get is, well, lasers, can I use that in medical practice? I can understand that when you’re speaking of maybe the class for lasers and things like that, that is quite dangerous to use, which, like you, and a number of other people who have been interviewed on this podcast, I did fall into that trap as well. And to take a small step back, before I continue answering that question, I was actually introduced to full-time stimulation and laser therapy at my acupuncture school, but not because it was a part of the program. It was actually a colleague of mine, a fellow student, his father was a scientist who started making photons stimulating devices, Martin Bales my colleague’s name, and his father, Dr. Bales, who was a PhD, I believe, was making things out of biosales, scientific and stimulating photons. He realized how that lower-level stimulus was quite profound and therapeutic. So, in our clinics, we started using infrared cameras and charting, noticing the facts that would change when you use these photons, which was completely outside of my understanding at the time. I didn’t grasp the importance and the power that it would have in my future. It was a really fun thing to experience clinically and put together some minor case studies and research that we were able to do in the clinic at Pacific College. Later on, realizing that things were progressing really quick. And as I mentioned, I got sucked into the sales trap of a little bit of that power was doing think about what more we’ll do, which is completely false. And from an unknown what I know now when I was purchasing my first lasers. So, there’s been a lot of pushback in the scope of practice of being scared about introducing something that they didn’t have a lot of understanding or knowledge. Because it does seem so different and new, people aren’t explaining laser therapy as a new form of moxibustion like I think it should be shared, it really is using energy, which is, you know, a photonic energy. It’s using light into a specific channel. That happened to be really effective when it’s done right when it has FDA clearances and proof of why it’s so effective in a certain way. But it’s also within your scope of practice, I would hope, to turn the lights on to practice in your clinic. If you have the use of turning on a light bulb, you also should have within your scope of practice. The use of light to be therapeutic means that you can recommend someone to go outside and observe the sunrise and sunset because of the hormonal and neurological changes that has within your medical practice. You should also have the means to recommend a specific type of stimulus from that same type of source, a light source, to be able to stimulate your body to heal more effectively. So, there’s been a lot of pushback. There’s also a huge amount of people that have tried what I jokingly call the gas station version of lasers, the little pin lights and things like that, that really don’t have the effectiveness or they don’t work. So, people may have tried to get in at their cheapest level with a non-professional grade and on, you know, proven version of laser therapy and feel like, I tried, it didn’t work, it didn’t do anything, which I can completely understand and respect that perspective when you don’t use something that is over Erchonia is great. It’s a completely different ballgame. Lastly, like what you said, there are a lot of people who feel like, I want to be more traditional, I mean, I’m a traditional practitioner, and I wanted to use traditional means. That’s where I think we hit a certain roadblock of our patient understanding. What our patients are there for and what they want, they want to get better as fast as possible, and their time is valuable. They want to go to practitioners that really have their very best interests at heart. They want to identify and see them for who they are, a unique case of one. They aren’t someone who sits somewhere on a bell curve in a research study. We actually want to treat them uniquely and personalize their protocols. They want to go to someone who has an open mind and is very experienced or educated. I think integrating multiple techniques is one way of really becoming more educated, and more knowledgeable. Laser is certainly one of those things that will help your patients see you as someone who is more cutting edge or more advanced with new technology and incorporating that into the tried and true ancient philosophy and the groundwork, the framework that we’ve been given in the types of careers that you and I have. We have this amazing education that we get to then add in new influencers like laser therapy or other modalities that will carry us to the end goal that much faster. That’s how I kind of present it to patients who are skeptical or worried about laser therapy. What I’ve personally seen as my visits when I incorporate laser therapy into the other modalities that I normally do anyway, is far more effective. So, you need, you know, usually about half or less the number of treatments that leave the need for you to get to your health goal. Each treatment is more than doubled in value than it previously was. So, there’s a little bit back, there’s a little skepticism, and there’s definitely the hurdle of price, which is something that I think as practitioners, we need to get over, especially as you are helping your patients. Your patients are happy to pay you for your services. They’re even investing in your practice and use professional grade equipment, medical grade equipment, you are going to be able to reap the benefits of getting not only better results but actually having a better income for your time. So, you can use that income any way you want, whether that’s to take more time for your family or to give back to charity work and start sponsoring other patients who may not be able to afford it. That’s the type of stuff that really gets me excited and happy is that our treatments have become so valuable to people that I’m now able to give back in ways that I’ve always wanted to and make an impact in people’s lives that I was having a hard time accessing prior to that.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, sometimes I think it’s natural for healthcare providers. We tend to be martyrs in our profession. And oftentimes, like you mentioned, I think a lot of it has to do with hanging on to traditions for tradition’s sake. And sometimes I think it’s especially, I’m speaking from a chiropractic perspective, we can be a little bit dogmatic about our techniques and our approaches. And it’s like, well, you know, in chiropractic, we have BJ Palmer, and the question that we have, like debates of like, what would BJ Palmer do if it was 2022? Would he be doing these things? And so sometimes you look at it through that lens, like, you know, we have, for example, regenerative medicine, we have peptides, we have some interesting nutrition approaches to helping tissue heal. And the question is, like, would BJ Palmer have used that, or would he just be sticking to his manual, like, you know, done-by-hand techniques? And I gotta imagine, as forward-thinking as he was back then, that no doubt he would be very much into these tools because at the end of the day, as practitioners, we want the end result of our patient getting better. And most practitioners, I think, would argue it doesn’t necessarily matter how you get there as long as you get there without harming the patient, and you’re truly helping the patient. And I guess in Chinese medicine, who is your BJ Palmer?

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: That’s a great question. I am having the hardest time getting the image of these bracelets with WWJD out of my head. And I would hope that as that bracelet says that on one side, and you flip it over, you would see ‘laser’ on the other side because you would laser. And within the acupuncture world, it has such a dynamic and rich history, I will not be able to sit and name one person. I think that would do a huge disservice. You know, there have been so many masters in this medicine that go back eons, historically beyond my knowledge of the history of it. And it comes from so many different areas, we really don’t know the origins of this medicine very well because it dates way past where our historical knowledge goes, we don’t have written accounts. But we do have things inside of caves and tombs, like I mentioned, and, you know, they go way back a long time. So I don’t know who that would be. But we certainly do have some masters that are even still living that I know are very intrigued and interested in laser therapy. And unfortunately, they’re, you know, they’re so respected in what they do. And a lot of them are more in the educational role of teaching what they know best, rather than in the stage of their career where they’re adopting new technologies and actually putting it into use in practice. But I was talking to a number of my colleagues and they literally have said verbatim, quotes, like ‘I truly believe light is the future of medicine.” I think being able to influence ion channels and influence the body in ways that are as subtle and gentle as possible that restores that homeostasis and balances the body back to its, you know, God-given original design is what we need to achieve. We are so heavy-handed, so often, that light can reprogram our tissues, we’ve proven that. And so I think that, like we’re talking about the pendulum swinging in different ways, I really do think it’s going to be hugely adopted in the future. I also see acupuncturists and I hope and pray that they continue to kind of break out of their shell and become the leaders in healthcare that I truly believe they’ve been educated to be, they’ve been designed to be, rather than a little bit more quiet and reserved, and so respectful that they choose not to share, if that makes sense. I want to encourage that person to come out of their shell and actually make a bigger impact and adopt these new technologies. Because everybody else is adopting their old technologies. It’s incredible how many physical therapists, chiropractors and MDs are striving for the use of dry needling or acupuncture-style sports med needling, motor point therapy, trigger point therapy, cupping, gua sha, all of that is being adopted by the rest of mainstream medicine right now. And it’s quite a compliment, honestly, that they’re taking our tools and their jaws are dropping with how effective it is. That’s awesome. Let’s go ahead and continue to push this medicine further. Because of the people who came before us, it wasn’t easy for them to make a dent in the American Medical Association or in medicine worldwide. There are other advances. And this is certainly, and I mean, are Erchonia being so fantastic at actually doing the research of identifying not just what’s flashy, what’s most marketable, what’s most high-powered and, you know, something you feel but actually doing the research to identify what’s most effective? What’s going to make the most powerful long-term changes in the safest way possible. It’s so in line with TCM.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, I hear that, it’s interesting. You say that because I’ve been in the chiropractic space, and maybe I’m naive to this, but I’ve been waiting for acupuncturists in my community and globally to kind of stand out a little bit more. Chiropractors are funny. Say that again.

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: I hope they will. But yeah,

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I hope they will too because the world needs them and they need to be a little bit loud. I think you know, chiropractors can sometimes do that to a fault. And also sometimes tend to shy away from conversations that need to be had with patients or other healthcare providers. But, you know, I really appreciate you being on this podcast, because I think you’re somebody who’s maybe an exception to that. And that you’re talking about moving healthcare forward, not just moving Chinese medicine forward. And I don’t mean by not carrying the tradition of Chinese medicine, I mean, making sure that you’re using the same practices and principles to help more people. I think as natural healthcare providers, whether you’re a naturopathic chiropractor and acupuncturist, or a Chinese medicine practitioner, like it is, the world is counting on us to make a big change. And it’s one of the words that you said, really stuck in my brain, it’s not being so heavy-handed in our approach. And literally and figuratively, when you’re looking at laser therapy, that’s one of the beauties of it is you can affect health in such a great way by talking about not being heavy-handed, it’s such a gentle approach, without having to blast people with high power, hurting them, even actually having to put hands on them. What a cool modality. And I think, if I were naive to acupuncture, which I very much am, I know a little bit about it. I’ve been to an acupuncturist just because I wanted to know what it was like. But if I was a layperson, a patient seeking therapy, and I walked into an acupuncturist’s office and saw that they had a laser, knowing nothing about it, that would make sense to me. That seems rational, like, Okay, I could see how an acupuncturist would use light or laser therapy to help somebody heal, it seems like that’s kind of in line with the philosophy. I just can’t. Right? Am I right?

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: Absolutely. And it goes back to what you’re saying. Like it’s not a disservice or a disrespect to our traditions, it’s actually with such utmost respect that I feel so privileged to know what I’ve been taught, thanks to the, you know, the Masters long before us, that we want to use that information in education to push it forward, to be able to utilize tools that weren’t available at their disposal to take the knowledge and combine it, right? And so if you’re an acupuncturist, which I have to also say you do know about acupuncture more than you would ever give yourself credit for, probably because most chiropractic techniques that are kind of specialized, you have your nat, or bioenergetic, synchronization technique, your best technique and those types of techniques have five elements and Chinese medicine written into them in their framework all over the place. If you look at even a lot of like the AMC manual for the URL, you got not only your neurological stuff, but you have all your acupuncture components to that, your five element components into that, the understanding of different frequencies and wavelengths are all within the acupuncture medicine paradigm as well. And so chiropractors and neurologists, Emotional Freedom Technique practitioners, massage therapists, they’re all utilizing things that are grounded in Chinese medicine, that’s crazy. So you already do know that. And it’s just funny that the ones getting out there and preaching it and sharing the information from Chinese medicine, commonly are acupuncturists, which just breaks my heart. Because a lot of things can be lost in translation when you don’t have as thorough of a knowledge base in the medicine, things can be taken inappropriately, such as cupping, and only wanting to show cupping marks as that’s when the therapy is done. That’s a former direct misrepresentation of the therapy itself. Right. And so, unfortunately, you know, there’s a lot of different types of practitioners that don’t know the ins and outs of cupping therapy that are using that and they’re actually known as a couple of specialists because acupuncturists aren’t actually saying the word as well as they could. But if you are an acupuncturist, or you’re a patient and you go into an acupuncture office, and you see a laser in use or in their practice, it only makes sense to me that you would think that while they are certainly up on their continuing education, they are adopting new technology and protocols. They are able to treat things that usually hit roadblocks like roadblocks of most patients in acupuncture, are going to say they’re scared of needles, and they are worried about if it hurt or not. They’re worried about cleanliness, because like acupuncturist office sometimes can be kind of dusty, or, you know, like, is this actually medical grade, those types of things. Yeah. Laser overcomes all of those fears. And it can also assist every other type of technique, whether you’re doing functional medicine, or you’re doing herbology, or you’re doing I mean, I leave it through cups, I laser over needles, I laser. With one hand, as I’d got the laser, I’ve got my quad shot tool, and the other and I’m going, you know, side by side, it just fits into everything, or you have your stance, you have your FX four or five, that over the scalp acupuncture points, or the ear acupuncture points, or over the Oregon and meridian or symptom, while you’re focusing on another area just it’s supercharged, some superpowers your treatments to literally be able to act like you have six times instead of two and make you so ridiculously efficient in your practice, that you can see more people in less time and have an impact, it’s just out of control.

 

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I want to circle back to one of the things that you mentioned before what you just said, stimulated something, and I personally feel that acupuncturists, chiropractors, and naturopaths should earn a very good living without having to break their backs doing it. And congratulations to you, you have a brand new family and a little guy at home. Off air, we were talking about how fun that is and how important it is to spend time with family. And I’ve worked with a lot of providers who don’t allow themselves to do that. They spend way too much time just trying to over deliver to patients, and they don’t necessarily make a good financial living doing it. They’re gonna get stuck in their practices and feel like, you know, that’s not why I think every healthcare provider got into the profession. Number one, to help people, and number two, because they were interested in and have a passion for it. But number three, also to be able to make a living doing it. And I think that’s one of the things that laser therapy provides is I know a lot of practitioners that from a financial standpoint, do really well with their practice. And I don’t mean that in a sleazy way, I mean that in a way that they’re helping more people. And if you’re helping more people, you should be making more money. But also, this is you know, this is a technology that can be done passively. Just like you mentioned with FX 405, it has a stand. Or if you have a, you know, a technician helping you or somebody like an assistant chiropractic assistant, medical assistant, they can do this, you know, they don’t have to have training in how to put a needle into somebody’s body, you can just wave it over a body part literally, without having to worry about hurting somebody. And so that was an end.

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: You can empower your patients, you can literally teach them protocols and send them home with a laser. And it’s hilarious how with just what you mentioned, the practitioners, you know, with the greatest parts commonly have the worst business. And I’m guilty of it for sure. If it wasn’t for my wife and my office staff, I would only spend seven hours teaching one patient, everything I can. So I’m just exhausted and breaking my back kind of doing everything for them. And then on the way out, it’d be like, “Hey, you want my shoes, my shirt too.

Dr. Andrew Wells: And my kids like laughing because I used to be the same way. Yeah, I feel you on that

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: Which isn’t doing your service like a true service. It’s more of a disservice to your patient when you can empower them to take responsibility for their own healthcare. You can value their time and yours. Something that any travel agent or anybody who travels knows, you’re willing to spend a little extra for a direct flight. If you want to get better faster, you’re willing to pay a little bit more for it, right? You don’t have to take that much time off of work in order to come to the office. You don’t have to come in five times a week or three times a week for this many weeks, and then two times a week for this number of weeks. We can treat you less often and get you the results you’re looking for and then teach you and empower you how to treat yourself. If that’s something you’re interested in and using lifestyle myths and other means to continue the changes that the laser will do in-office, we know that it changes your brain. And I have another pushback that I just wanted to touch on really quick is that I know doctors are scared to death of doing brain-based treatments because they don’t know enough. And I do not know what you know, Trevor knows. Dr. Berry is brilliant and Brandon Brock is a brilliant gentleman I love being close to him, and you know, certainly an idiot in comparison, but it shouldn’t shy you away from being able to treat. As an acupuncturist, you either have access to charts, or you can look it up on Google or DuckDuckGo, or you can already rely on your experience of laboring over acupuncture points, laboring over the scalp neurological points. If you don’t know where to treat for vertigo or where to treat for a movement disorder post-stroke, refer to your scalp acupuncture points. And chiropractors, you can do this too. PTS, you can do it. Like I love teaching other professions, chiropractors how to influence their practice what they’re already doing by just adding a tiny bit of Chinese medical knowledge, a little bit of acupuncture knowledge, and all of a sudden, they can supercharge and superpower what they’re doing with the laser specifically. I love that.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: If you’re a practitioner listening to this, maybe if you’re an acupuncturist listening to this, I would really encourage you, and I think Dr. Gilbert would also encourage you, if you’re curious, to learn more about it, do a little bit of studying on what lasers can do for your patients and for your practice. On the Erchonia website, they have tons of really helpful resources, lots of research, a list of events with doctors who are experts in this area speaking, and they host lots of local and larger events. So, I would really encourage you, if this has sparked your interest, to follow up on it. That doesn’t necessarily mean you have to buy a laser tomorrow, or next month, or next year. But if you look into it and really do your due diligence, I think you’ll find that it’s a really powerful tool for a wide scope of issues that would fit very nicely into the practice model and also the philosophical model of Chinese medicine. And so, that being said, Dr. Dillberg appreciates your knowledge, your insights, and your expertise in helping bring this technology and therapy into the forefront, because you and I both know there’s immense value in that and it’s much needed. 

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: Is there anything you want to build and be on the same podcast as so many of these excellent doctors? Honestly, whatever Erchonia is doing, what you’re able to do, this podcast is helping so many people. And it’s an honor to be a part of.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: If doctors want to connect with you or learn more about what you’re doing in your practice, what would be a good way to do that?

 

Dr. Dustin Dillberg: Email is probably going to be the best way to reach me. My name is DustinDillberg@gmail.com, which is easy to remember and use. I’m happy to answer any questions or assist in any way I can.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Thank you so much. That’s beneficial. And if you just Google “Dr. Dustin Dillberg, Hawaii” he pops right up there and appreciates you being willing for the doctors to reach out to you. So thank you for that. Thank you for listening to this episode. I hope you found this immensely valuable, and I look forward to connecting with you on the next episode.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show! Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There, you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as the Erchonia e-community where you can access free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.

About The Guest(s):

Dr. Dustin Dillberg is a second-generation practitioner of Chinese medicine and acupuncture.

 

Summary:

Episode #27 of the Laser Light Show podcast, hosted by Dr. Andrew Wells, featured Dr. Dustin Dillberg. The episode delved into the integration of lasers in acupuncture, exploring its scientific, technological, and physiological aspects. Dr. Dillberg shared his personal journey influenced by his father, a chiropractor turned acupuncturist, and his experiences that led him to embrace Chinese medicine. He discussed the transformative power of acupuncture, his recovery from a car accident with the help of Chinese medicine, and his passion for integrating new techniques into traditional practices.

 

Key Takeaways:

  • Integration of Lasers and Acupuncture: The podcast highlighted the synergy between traditional acupuncture and modern laser therapy, emphasizing how lasers can enhance the effectiveness of acupuncture treatments.
  • Personal Journey and Professional Growth: Dr. Dillberg shared his path from being inspired by his father’s practice to becoming a skilled practitioner, emphasizing the importance of learning from past generations while incorporating new technologies.
  • Educational Role and Future Directions: Dr. Dillberg discussed his involvement in teaching and lecturing, aiming to influence the future of the profession and integrate more advanced tools like laser therapy into acupuncture.
  • Challenges and Opportunities: The episode addressed the skepticism and challenges within the acupuncture community towards adopting laser therapy, while also highlighting the opportunities it presents for enhanced patient care and professional development.

 

Quotes:

  • Dr. Dillberg on the Impact of Acupuncture: “I remember like coming out of Superman, you know like a completely different person was transformed out of that woman that came into her office. And I wanted to be a part of that.”
  • On Integrating New Techniques: “I continued to follow in his footsteps… pushing hard to integrate new techniques that hadn’t been joined together before and just kind of formed my mind into thinking that’s just the only way to do things.”
  • On Teaching and Impacting the Future: “Being able to influence how other doctors are then able to teach or impact their patients that much faster hits the nail on the head for me.”
  • On Lasers and Acupuncture: “Acupuncture and lasers, I think fit in better than lasers in just about anything else that I’ve ever come across… It’s been proven in so many studies. Now, it’s been really effective for changing all sorts of things.”

Episode #26: Lasers for Performance Enhancement with Dr. Jerome Rerucha

Dr. Andrew Wells: Hello and welcome to The Laser Light Show, this is Dr. Andrew Wells and on today’s episode we have a special guest, Dr. Jerome Rerucha. This is episode #26 Lasers for Performance Enhancement.

 

Transcript

Speakers: 

Dr. Andrew Wells

Dr. Chad Woolner

Dr. Jerome Rerucha

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show. 

Explore the transformative benefits of Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) for athletes in our blog, How Laser Therapy Helps Athletes Physically and Mentally. Learn how LLLT can accelerate recovery, reduce pain, and enhance mental clarity. Dive into the world of laser therapy now!

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: All right, let’s get this kicked off. Dr. Rerucha. Always a pleasure to have you on the show. This is actually your second episode, I believe on The Laser Light Show. So welcome back.

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha:  Yeah, thanks for having me. Dr. Andrew. It’s great to be here.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: And I think Dr. Mark mentioned that you may have been one of the first doctors in our profession to really like and find low-level laser therapy.. 

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: I was not the first, but very early on. So there were a couple of great doctors. I wasn’t with Erchonia when they were in the garage as we referred to. But very shortly after, when they started doing seminars, and fortunately stumbled upon them. Even when nobody knew much about it. It was always really into the dynamics of the triad of health and always looking at how we can help people better. So when I saw lasers, I just kind of had an aha moment of how it was very different from everything else that was being done there. Whether it was the emotional techniques, the structure, the soft tissue, and all the subcategories. So it was really interesting. There wasn’t much research out there. But just from a practicality standpoint, you can really see there was something there. So it was super fun to be a part of figuring out how we were going to structure this? How is this really going to make sense when we teach this to other people, and then to see it grow with the way it has and all the research that Erchonia has done to really validate it besides just clinical protocols. It’s been a labor of love for a lot of people and just the right forces came together early on.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Oh, that’s amazing. And maybe for doctors who haven’t had a chance to hear your previous episode or maybe haven’t heard of you before, can you give us a little bit of background on what you do and what you’ve been doing over the last couple of decades in your practice?

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: So initially, I was under chiropractic care. Pretty early on, I probably went to what the general public would consider a very general chiropractor where he spent 30 seconds, 90 seconds with you, it was pretty much the same adjustment every time, and we had to drive 40 miles, which people would laugh at. I’m not that old. I’m 52. But even then it wasn’t like there were chiropractors everywhere. I’m from a very low-populated area in Nebraska anyway. So we went there pretty regularly. My sister had allergies. My dad had great success with chiropractors for musculoskeletal issues. My grandpa died when he was 100. He probably got adjusted the first time when he was four years old. And he used chiropractic throughout his whole life. So he’d call himself an expert of a patient of different types of chiropractors. He always used it. So anyway, I got introduced to it very early on. And then a chiropractor moved into our small town. And they were very different. He was an AKC K person, a world-class cranial path did nutrition. So that was just a whole nother level of something that interested me anyway, even though I was a very young person. So that set a great bar. I’m not a very genetic specimen, but I was really fascinated by strength and strength training. So that’s kind of where you really start seeing how chiropractic can help the performance side of things, but it’s not a substitute for lifting and activating the body. Nothing like it, but it was a big difference-maker, to say the least. And it was fascinating to me. The analysis of how they can see things that nobody else could see wasn’t right And then any exercise phys textbook or technique of lifting so that from a very early age, you know, the performance benefits that chiropractic can have, especially when you’re integrating proper training and eating involved with it. So my initial career then I was a full-time strength coach and a competitive strength athlete at a competitive level for over 14 years, still working out. And then when I did get into a position in strength and conditioning that everybody would want, and it was great. But it was kind of like I saw all these functional injuries, career-ending injuries of athletes, and I’m like, I don’t understand what my chiropractor is doing because it was as much of a magic show of pre and post. But I’m like, I guarantee that kid could be playing in two weeks. This is not a career-ending injury, you know, nothing on the MRI, nothing. This is just chronic, nagging injuries. So I’m like, You know what, I can’t take this. For my entire career, the school didn’t use chiropractors, there was no chiropractor around the school that had anything to do with how I grew up under what I thought all chiropractors did. So I was like, You know what, I’m just gonna have to go to school and figure this out, even though I was on the fast track for any job you want in strength and conditioning. So that’s kind of how I got here today and not sad about it, I learned a lot. Still, to this day, we put a tremendous amount of the performance to principles. And we’re still involved in strength and conditioning. But what we do clinically with chiropractic, the performance side of things, too, as it scales up, and lasers are included in that.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I find it interesting that I don’t really know anything about the world of strength training and competition. Basically, we’re talking about competitive lifting of heavy things, correct?

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: Yeah, so for me, I competed specifically in powerlifting. The thing I did the most was powerlifting. I never took Olympic lifting to the competition level, but I know enough about it to help others. Same with strongman; I mean, to this day, I probably do more strongman training than powerlifting. I guess after doing that for so long, you still do some of the core lifts. But you change things up every decade in your life as a total new chapter physiologically, whether you’re going into your prime or you’re plateauing, or you’re turning back that biological clock after a certain point. So I love it. Absolutely love it. And the uniqueness of what I would call performance chiropractic to integrate with that. I remind myself every day when I work on people, it’s like, ‘Wow, if I were the world’s greatest strength coach, here’s how I could help this person.’ But then some people, you remember how they’re stuck. And it’s a snap of a finger when you’re an advanced chiropractor identifying these things. And then you have great tools like lasers to accompany it. And you’re like, ‘Wow, what I was able to do in one or two visits with that person versus their last five years of struggling to get help.’ Constant reminding of the excitement of that. So it’s fun to share it with other people, your mission of how you’re training doctors out there and bringing this information to patients and things like that. There’s just a whole level of standard that other people are doing. But now that we live in the information age, it’s just so great to be able to get it out so much more easily.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Why is it, and correct me if I’m wrong on this, but why does it seem that weightlifting in particular seems to be sort of a pioneering and kind of an incubator for innovative things that come out in sports? It always seems like weightlifters are way ahead of the curve in terms of nutrition, they’re way ahead of the curve in terms of technology, way ahead of the curve in terms of thinking about physiology. Like, what is it? Why is it weightlifting that seems to always bring out these really cool innovations?

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: That’s a great point. And I’ve thought about that a lot. And it’s totally up to the lead, especially just in the clinical world, to move forward, but there are consequences in strength and fitness. It all comes down to competition. You’re going to embarrass yourself on the platform or on the stage, whether it’s track and field or whatever, strength and conditioning and healthy eating. It’s so important. And you can help a lot of people in your clinic, whether it’s symptomatically, and restore them to a higher quality of life. But it’s like, it’s really possible. So as we get into this, and as we define these levels of physiological success, there’s a big difference. We’re taking somebody with symptomatic limitations. And now they’re symptomatic free just to do independent activities of daily living, which that’s really important, but I would never define that as performance. So in strength and fitness, you’re taking healthy people largely, and it’s a lot harder to take a healthy person and make them excel. They’re not only healthy but especially if you take it to the levels that we’ve always been involved with, you’re pushing the boundaries of what humans are defined to do. And it’s so exciting. Strength has always raised the bar to every other industry. And then research and protocols just follow from it. But yeah, there’s always been cutting-edge people because it’s that drive to win. Like, if you do the same thing that everybody else is doing, then you only have genetics to rely on who’s going to win if everybody’s using the same principle. So it’s like, “Hey, you still want to recruit and try to find people with some natural talent.” But it’s like, when you don’t have natural talent, you’ll even in our little town, we’re in a little town in Georgia right now. And it’s probably population-wise, we’ve set the most state records, national records, and world records, just based upon per population in the last three years added. And we don’t have anybody who’s a genetic specimen, you know, we’re just regular people walking around the street. We just offer something to have them start with clinical care to come in and some of them get, it’s like, “Wow, you know, this is kind of interesting. I feel great. Now, what can I do with this now that I feel so much better that I don’t have limitations?” So we’ve had quite a few regular people leaving in their very senior years compete at a high level. So one of our members is at Worlds right now, this weekend, you lift tomorrow. So she was a chronic pain patient and never could lift until she was 68 years old. She always wanted to compete but had so much pain. And she got referred to us and told us that she always had this drug to compete, you know, in the strength sport, but she could never lift weights at all, it would just collapse or so we took over all her training and programming. And yeah, she did great. I mean, she was just untapped potential from a mental perspective. So she’s broken every state record at her age category, underneath the times, like now she owns a total of 150 state records, probably because she’s 75. But she’s so strong. She’s broken every record from age 55, to 60, 60 to 65, 65 to 70, and 70 to 75. And she’s ranked number one in the world right now. So she’s favored anything can happen. But we’re really proud of her. It’s just we give her some good ideas that, you know, keep her sharp and in tune and performance chiropractic, but we don’t take all that credit. It’s just we unleashed a monster, but the monster was always there. And sadly, nobody else did it.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Wait, hold on, did I hear that she came in as a pain patient and couldn’t do any of these things? You helped her find the right therapy to be able to do these things. And now she’s a world champion many times over.

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: Yeah, she’s won worlds twice. And she owns all the national records, all the state records, and she’s set a couple of world records, too. So yeah, she’s 75 years old. She’s under 40 pounds, and she’s deadlifted 300 pounds.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Wow, that’s incredible. 

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: Yeah, We would watch as she first came in, diagnosed with osteopenia, and in certain places, osteoporosis. You know, it’s like, yeah, that doesn’t matter. That’s just the right way, you know? We can. That’s the right way to do it..

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s incredible. That’s such an inspirational story. I’m curious, what did her progression look like? So, what were you doing with her? And obviously, this is a laser podcast, so I’m assuming that you did some laser with her. But maybe you can talk about how you integrated those protocols, not just from a pain and recovery standpoint, but then, of course, this is all about performance. And maybe you can speak to that.

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: Yeah, so when she came in, she had a lot of experience in chiropractic. She had very positive responses. So she had life-debilitating migraines when she was like 15. I mean, just totally flattened. She’s not a dramatic person at all. And her family wasn’t, like, totally rich and wealthy, but they had enough funds that they could really seek out, not just locally, you know, who can help our child because she’s just suffering so bad. So every neurologist, every expert, every notion, lotion, and potion, you can pretty much think of, and then one day, I think she was like 19 and she’s just having a severe episode and some neighbors came over. And they’re like, ‘Well, where’s Gail at?’ They’re like, ‘Oh, she’s just having a very severe migraine again for days,’ and they’re like, ‘Well, has she ever tried chiropractic?’ And they’re like, ‘No,’ they just picked her up, put her in the car, took her to a chiropractor, and she says, ‘man, one adjustment. It was just 50% gone instantaneously, two adjustments 100% gone, never came back.’ And so she was like, ‘holy cow, this is amazing.’ So she’s always had to maintain chiropractic and they were really good chiropractors, they just don’t have a background in strength and fitness. And so she always had really severe neck and shoulder pain that could be managed well, but not in an active lifestyle like she wanted to. And so of course, everybody’s doctors included their chiropractor, like when she’d tell them she wants to lift weights, they’re like, ‘well, that’s a terrible idea. You’re not made for that, you know, you can’t get hurt, would you do it.’ And again, they’re very good at what they do. But it’s a totally different animal when you’ve done it yourself. And there’s so many benefits I’ve learned with chiropractic exams, and of course, the adjustment. But there’s a whole different level to understanding your chiropractic exam and what can be done. So truthfully, she had shoulder pads, she had a completely frozen shoulder because she was trying to lift at this time, she’s a very driven woman. She’s trying to live totally, in an epic pain pattern and can’t turn her head or shoulders completely frozen. She had like two or three nerve blocks before she came into our clinic in this cycle, it didn’t faze it a bit. And in her case, I created a whole brain-body fit for a three-dimensional exam. And, taking these principles. So even though she has migraines, it’s not just a selected exam for the upper body. So as we go through, and we body map her and brain map her pelvis was like really messed up dysfunctional. So we would just find the indicators that bothered her the most on her terms, and how dysfunctional she was. And in that case, I just put a belt on her. And her symptoms went 100% gone. And she just looked like she saw a ghost. We know the pelvis is involved. So once we kind of found out we’re a keystone now her neck needed to be adjusted, her scapula, and shoulders needed to be adjusted from other assessments. But it was a huge symptomatic, and everybody’s focusing on the area of the symptom, of course. So anyway, it was just really obvious. So it just took a few days before most of her pain was gone. And we were able to start training or specifically for powerlifting within 10 days, and never looked back.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I just think of, yeah, I think of someone in their 70s, you know, 60s, 70s, who are already clearly developing sarcopenia. And, you know, their muscles are atrophying and it’s just like, ‘Oh, well, I’m in my 60s and 70s. Now, that’s just going to happen.’ And it’s total rubbish. I mean, if you look at older people who are active, and even people who walk, not even just set aside powerlifting, but just people moving their bodies and walking, and then even adding, you know, some weight resistance training, any kind of training, like, if you compare them to their peers, it’s night and day difference. And I can tell you, I’m 42 years old, I can’t deadlift 300 pounds. And she’s like, she’s doing that at her age. Like, that gives me a lot of hope for the future for me and for everybody else. But this is just an amazing story of what the body is capable of doing if you just let it. Let it do what it does best. And that’s just, I’m pretty awestruck by that. And that actually makes me really happy to know there’s someone out there doing that. Because right next to me, as I’m recording this podcast, I have my weight wrapped around my bench and things like this, and I’m looking over. ‘Oh, Thank gosh, I have this stuff, because I want to be, I want to be able to do those things when I’m older.’ And so we’re talking about performance. Oftentimes, we think of elite-level athletes, or like college athletes and high school athletes, but there’s a whole other chapter to performance and the definition of performance as you go through these different periods in your life. And here you have a woman who’s just at 140 pounds lifting massive amounts of weight, like that’s, I think that’s a performance that most Americans could say, ‘Yeah, I want that,’ versus having a gold medal around their neck for something, you know, for some kind of sport. I think most people would trade longevity and health and function well into the later parts of their life as a performance indicator versus, you know, kind of being a champion in a certain sport.

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: Welcome back to the ‘This is Laser’ podcast. So, when we saw the breakdown of it, even though she had a lot of symptoms in the neck and shoulder area, and again, you know, as we bring people in, you don’t have to just laser just one area, but it was really apparent. So obviously, we adjusted her ‘toes to nose’. We put more attention to the pelvis because we knew that’s where her Keystone breakdown was really affecting the pain cascade. And with that, we knew there were connective tissue injuries there. It wasn’t like a big bulging disc or this and that, but obviously, on the dysfunction she had and the difference the support made of the sacral belt to properly stabilize but not correct the weaknesses down there. So again, that’s where lasers are just super helpful. She had these blown fuses; we know the ligaments are, you know, definitely sprained strain down there, causing cascades. So that’s just one of the benefits of laser therapy, is you have these things and even doing proper adjustment to get weak muscles that can turn on, but just knowing how long she had the problem, and how she just had that fire in her eyes, always, you know, so us being able to use lasers to speed up that tissue healing, and just a difference-maker. And just that ‘aha’ moment of how we can demonstrate with her even doing my atone tests are different muscle weaknesses, and how that’s contributing to an issue, take the laser make it very tangible of how these things pre and post-change in seconds, or at least, you know, a minute at most. It’s very tangible to patients, and they can really get it and get really excited behind it.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Is she currently using laser therapy to prepare for competitions?

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: So she does regular maintenance adjustments, you know, and it’s not just that she chose the sport of powerlifting; that’s just really what she gravitates toward, you know, to be clear. And not that you see a lot of seniors, I mean, it’s just that there are more and more people all the time. It’s incredible how many 50, 60, 70, 80-year-olds are competing out there, not just in powerlifting. But it’s a great community. Everybody’s hugely supportive, even people when I was competing. I mean, you’re out there to beat and humiliate everybody, what’d you do, you know, but still, you’re very cordial. Even the people that are in your weight class, even when you’re at the competition, you’re still very supportive of them. Of course, you want to win. So it’s the most important thing, you just want to do the best you can do. And if somebody is better than you on that day, or they’re just better than you, accept it, you know, so they help you push yourself. But it’s a great, great sport, there’s really not much conflict between people. Everybody wants to see everybody do better and completely rewrite the textbooks. You know, that’s really the goal. 

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s so cool. One of the things I find fascinating about this story, and you’ve mentioned this as well, is taking people from pain-based care into performance-based care. Where do lasers fit into that transition from pain to performance? What does that look like in your clinic for your patients or for your athletes or… Yeah.

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: People do have some really significant asymmetries that were even there as little kids, but the body is amazing in how it compensates. So many times, you know, symptoms arise way after the fact that you’ve always had this problem; the body could compensate, and then it just kind of can’t anymore. So from every age and every progression of it. So, you know, with Gail, she’s pain-free, she takes really good care of herself. She doesn’t just power lift; we put a whole clinical exercise program together for her to balance the synergies and little postural muscles, not just the big muscles, and everybody has their weak links when you get to a certain age. So obviously, we’re adjusting her to do a certain amount of soft tissue. But, you know, especially as it gets closer to competition, six weeks out she’s minimum getting lasers once a week, and it’s not for symptomatic reasons. It’s for, you know, lasering the neck and shoulder area, so you don’t get hurt doing maximum effort on upper body lifts. You know, you’re lasering the low back twice a week as it gets closer to the competition. But yeah, so it’s a minimum; if she comes in minimum once a month, and that’s pretty rare. She pretty much gets adjusted. And of course, during those sessions, we’re lasering her areas, whether it’s her weak links that are symptomatic, but it’s like everybody’s got weak links, just if it’s not symptomatic. That’s not the point.”

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, and that’s  accurate.

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: But yeah, the laser really helped prevent injuries in her case, and, you know, no different than anything else if you’re a soccer player. I mean, you’re predisposed to sprained ankles and shin splints, and you know, the bruising from impact injuries, whether the clunking of knees together, or all those things that it’s like, Hey, don’t wait till an injury to do proactive care. There’s a lot of chronic repetitive stress syndromes that correlate to injuries, and chiropractic, soft tissue, and lasers are phenomenal for just reverse engineering. What’s the biggest problem people commonly face, and let’s get ahead of it.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: So what’s actually happening when you’re lasering? Somebody from a performance standpoint on a cellular level? What’s the mechanism of action that’s actually working there? On the patient?

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: Yes. So whether it’s symptoms, or it’s for performance levels, you know, it’s well proven through research, there’s the mitochondrial benefits, there’s increased circulation, there’s decreasing the inflammation cascade in the body. Those are some of the big ones without going into the super detail. So, especially again, when you do certain exercises, like when you deadlift, I mean, obviously, if you deadlift, heavy or even working your eyelids, but you know, for the most part, it still is going to be a very heavy, intense low back exercise, glutes, hamstrings. So to prevent injuries, it’s fantastic just post workout or just lasering those areas, and there is that ATP component, I mean, you totally used up your stores for the day. So there’s that shot of phototherapy that you’re putting in there that really does have a mitochondrial ATP benefit. And, then you still have the circulation. So yeah, the recovery is profound. And even if people aren’t sensitive enough that they can feel the laser under normal circumstances, you know, when you really work out hard, and you deplete the body, most people you can close your eyes, and you’re like, “Whoa, feels warm,” or it’s like, well, there’s no heat with cold lasers, as you know, it’s just the increased circulation. That’s that replenishment of tissues. It’s no substitute for food. But it’s a very unique advantage, whether you’re doing it for symptomatic purposes, to help people heal. Or, again, I always say, as a strength coach, your mission statement is to improve performance and prevent injury. It doesn’t matter what sport you’re doing, improve performance, prevent injuries, that ‘s like, let’s seem like a really good mantra for a chiropractor. And you’re just not ailing it with such severe methods of activity. But our minimal goal in our clinic is independence of activities of daily living and to have the balance and the physical capacity and the neurological capacity to do that. And when you have weak links, aside from their symptoms or not, we don’t let those things go. So when we body map and brain map people, we don’t threaten them and say, “Oh, you’re gonna get Parkinson’s or Oh, you’re susceptible to low back pain,” but you just look statistically. And you look at what are the biggest chronic degenerative problems in our society, and then even what are the most common acute injuries and of course, concussions are a big deal. And it’s like, well, lasers are great for all of those things.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: We are in, as we’re recording this, early October and getting into postseason baseball. And every time someone sets a record in baseball, this discussion comes up about performance-enhancing drugs and what these elite athletes are using. What’s fair, what’s not fair? And I think it was you who told us that even low-level laser therapy was potentially on the chopping block for use in sports as an unfair advantage. I don’t know if you told us that or not. But do you know anything about that?

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: That was not me. I have no idea who would have said that. Again, I don’t claim to know everything. That would be odd because this is shocking to some people. Everybody thinks steroids are bad and they’re illegal, and you’re a bad person if you use them. But it’s like, you know, in the athletic world, especially the lifting world, so it’s very well known. You have drug-free federations and you have open federations, and there’s kind of a joke that in certain federations, you get drug tested just to make sure you’re taking enough. You know, I mean, if you really, maybe you could beat certain tests anyway, you know, but that’s a whole different level of understanding. Most people don’t even know how to get into that, but the premise is, I find that hard to believe. I would really have to do some research to say, okay, who’s saying that? I haven’t heard anything from USADA, and they’re one of the major programs, you know, they do the Olympic testing, and you start as far from perfect, but make no mistake, if you’re going to be tested by USADA, especially when they just do random drug testing. So, like, our Olympic lifting athletes for the US, I mean, it’s two in the morning, you get a knock on the door, you know, it’s five on the board. So you’ll get drug tested all year long. And there’s no indication that you say this thing. You can’t use low-level lasers

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Alright, maybe I’m propagating.

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: It’s like, no, I’m not saying you’re wrong. You’re doing journalism and you’re just repeating, there is cutting-edge stuff out there, you go, ‘Hey, this is coming down the road.’ I haven’t heard that at all. And I find that very hard to believe that would ever be the case.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, that may be absolutely true. And I would find that really odd to try to bend light for performance enhancement. Obviously, it has a positive physiological effect on the body, and that’s measurable and researched. But yeah, that may be false. One area I know you’re really focused on, obviously, is patients and performance for weightlifting. But there’s been a huge surge in the last 10 years in the general population about working on longevity and performance. You’d call these people kind of the biohackers in the health industry. And there’s a big push not just from the provider standpoint, but from everyday people who are just looking to get better performance out of their lives. They’re business owners, and they want to produce at a higher level, or they’re moms and they have four kids, and they want to make sure that they’re present for their children and live a long time to be around for grandkids and things like that. So there’s this huge push for biohacking and for performance and longevity. Where would you say lasers fit in, if at all, in that kind of movement?

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: I think the biggest advantage lasers give us is to improve function quicker. And so lasers work point and shoot, they work better through activation. So if you have a clinician that’s even skilled in identifying movement function and symmetries and these types of things, the real advantages, you know, if you want performance and anti-aging throughout your life, it’s like, okay, is walking healthy for you? Yes. But if you went and you gotta get knee or your pelvis, or you’ve got this little back, and you can’t walk properly, and you can’t walk symmetrically and you can’t arm swing, well, the most important thing is not to go tell that person to go walk because it’s good for you. And chiropractors have the greatest advantages. Like I love physical therapists. I know a bunch of smart ones too. But it’s like, the reason I became a chiropractor for performance reasons is like you have an unfair advantage. When you can become a ninja with your hands. I mean, I really smoked the adjustment. And it’s still not just doing flying sevens, it’s like which subluxation is going to relate to this, just like Gail it was clearly her pelvis and even her pelvis on one side, that was relating to this chronic neck and shoulder problem. And, you know, it’s to do ninja quality adjustments. And so, you know, lasers, some companies might not like to be saying this, but I’m a very honest person. It’s like, Well, look, lasers are not steroids, if you bench 200 by lasering, someone, you’re probably not going to bench to 10. But to stay injury-free, and everybody’s got little things underneath the line. And when you can remove those, and you can correct them, especially if you have the talent to adjust soft tissue and lasers make everything work better, a lot better. And that’s the magic. Truly laser is that if you’re at a very, very low level, yeah, it doesn’t surprise me at all. If you’ve never lifted a weight before, it’s like, you can’t do a push -up and we laser you and we turn some things on you crank out three push-ups, it’s like well, I don’t know, three push-ups is exactly a performance measure of it. But I know it’s better and I’m happy. But, you know, that’s just an improved function, I won’t give that credit as an improved performance level, because it’s still at such a low physical capacity. 

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, that makes sense. You know, what I find is that there’s a lot of truth to health and performance benefits when you’re combining lots of different things, when you have a comprehensive approach, when you’re combining adjustments with nutrition and exercise and recovery tactics and things like temperature variation, getting out in the sun, using light therapy, all these things when applied, have a synergistic effect on the body because we know the body is doing amazingly miraculous things every second we’re alive that we can’t really necessarily articulate or even measure in a quantitative way but we know when you expose your body to things that it needs and wants, it just seems to work a lot better. And for recovering from injuries or just feeling good and feeling like you’re functioning at your optimal level. I find that’s more of a pragmatic approach than this kind of miracle. What would you call it? Notions, lotions, and potions? Like yeah, we like to think that there’s something magic out there that does all those things but I like that makes a lot of sense, and I appreciate your candidness and honesty when it comes to what lasers can and can’t do. And so you’re not hearing like, and I’ve heard a lot of really miraculous stories from a lot of the doctors who have been on this program when they’re using lasers, like you see some pretty incredible things happen. But it’s often not in a vacuum. They’re also using other therapies and things that really accentuate the benefit of all the things collectively. So yeah. So what would you do if you have Docs listening to this that are interested in lasers for performance, or even just to help their patients get better outcomes? What would be the next good step? Like where would you point Doctors who are interested in learning more about lasers? Specifically, Erchonia.

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: Yeah, Erchonia has a lot of great speakers; they all have advantages. And, you know, again, as you said, Dr. Wonderlic is out here right now. And you know him well, and what he’s involved in, it’s, I wish I could be doing a podcast on you guys. Because that was big, you’re sharing your own stories about what you’re doing, it is eye-opening what your whole group is doing to the people coming on board. So maybe one day, I’ll get to take your role on this same podcast, and I’m going to interview you guys and share with the world what you guys are doing. And lasers are involved in that. But yeah, so where would they start? There’s so many right ways, you know, I’m never going to tell an upper cervical person they should practice differently, I’m never going to tell a pelvis practitioner they should practice differently. So number one, lasers fit into how you practice. And going back even to the performance things and the miracles that you’ve heard and practitioners have shared. And there’s so many great practitioners out there. And they have books of miracles of how the adjustment of soft tissue and nutrition is done for patients. And they don’t use the laser. And what is so fulfilling for me is that in the 22 years I’ve been involved with Erchonia, you see great chiropractors who are hugely successful, and they are really good at what they do. And all of us, myself included, you know, we’ve helped so many people, you could pat yourself on the shoulder and go, ‘Oh, yeah, I’m great.’ And then when the person comes in, that you can’t help, you’re like, ‘Hey, it’s 80-20, or whatever your thought process is, you know, you help 80%, 20% you know, that can’t be fixed.’ But it is phenomenal to see people are doing the right adjustments, they’re doing the right soft tissue, they’re doing the right everything. And they just bring a laser into their clinic after they practice for so long. And they start lining up, you know, the 10 patients, the 20 patients, the 30 patients that they come in for maintenance chiropractic, and it absolutely helps them, but they still have those issues. And they’re like, ‘Gail, you know, and they have some noticeable dysfunction that they cannot do and what their regular life is. And then you take the laser, you just laser the chronic subluxation, or you laser the symptom, or you laser a brain lobe that relates, you know, it’s simple, the same-side cerebellum, opposite-side cortex, even when their back pain hurts and you see that all the time. And that is so exciting that it really lets you understand the unique benefits that lasers provide physiologically, but also through cellular and neurological communication because there’s no tissue regeneration that’s happened in that short time. So you can say, ‘Oh, they just have a connective tissue injury. Oh, it’s just a disk. It’s a lifting sprain, it’s degeneration.’ But when you practice successfully for a long time without a laser, and then you implement a laser, everybody should have those patients where it’s like, ‘Geez, I just thought Mrs. Jones would have done a little bit better from the history of everything I’ve done.’ And you see people bring lasers in and then you get that cannon, just holy cow. And it’s great reinforcement for the doctors and yeah, patients are blown away by it. So that’s always exciting to hear and see those from other people.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: One of the things I speak most loudly about is that you’ve done laser therapy for 22 years. Yeah, so that’s a big number. And what I found, at least in our profession as chiropractors, is that we tend to jump from gadget to gadget, technology to technology. Like, what new thing came out this year that everybody seems to be using in our profession, But you’ve been using Erchonia lasers for 22 years and still continue to use them. And here we are, continuing to talk about these things. It’s one of those things that becomes kind of an axiom. It’s somewhat self-evident that it sticks around for so long because it works and it’s valuable. It’s valuable to patients, it’s valuable to doctors. And that’s what, you know, as we interview more and more doctors and experts like Dr. Rerucha, they say the same things. Like, this is a really valuable tool that you’re using in conjunction with what you’re already doing and also kind of spans the scope of all the different variables in our profession. You have your upper cervical doctors, you have your pediatric doctors. I mean, shoot, we’ve interviewed veterinarians on the show that will tell you like, lasers are amazing for their patients, for their animal patients. And so that’s one of the really magical things about and one of the reasons we actually really enjoy doing this podcast. Not just to promote something that we think is valuable and helpful to patients and health worldwide, but just to meet really interesting people and just the scope of what you can do with laser therapy is pretty, it’s pretty unbelievable. And it’s really entertaining, actually, for us to do this because every time I do an interview, I’m kind of blown away. And this interview particularly with you, the story of Gail is just incredible. And I really appreciate you sharing that with us and tell her thank you for being a story that we can share and help inspire other people to age in a great way and to perform well into their 60s and 70s. And I’m really curious to see what Gail will look like in her 80s and from what it sounds like, she’s not stopping anytime soon.

 

Dr. Jerome Rerucha: Yeah, she has the intensity for competitive lifting like I had when I was in my prime, you know, trying to win nationals. So it is inspiring. She’s inspired a lot of people.

 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I love it. Well, Dr. Rerucha, thank you so much for being a guest on The Laser Light Show. And for your second episode. I really appreciate it and I’m sure we’ll have you on again sometime in the near future. For all of our guests, thank you so much for listening to this episode. If you have any questions about how laser therapy works, you can always visit Erchonia’s website, Erchonia.com, to get more information. And thanks for listening and we’ll see you in the next episode.

 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as the Erchonia e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.

 

About The Guest(s):

Dr. Jerome Rerucha has been a thought leader in weightlifting and sports performance who has been using low-level laser therapy in his clinic for over 2 decades! To learn more about Dr. Rerucha and his work go to: https://www.performancepractic.com/

 

Summary: 

The podcast episode #26, “Lasers for Performance Enhancement,” hosted by Dr. Andrew Wells on The Laser Light Show, features an in-depth conversation with Dr. Jerome Rerucha about the benefits of low-level laser therapy (LLLT) in chiropractic care and performance enhancement. The episode opens with Dr. Chad Woolner sharing his fascination with lasers from childhood experiences and their profound impact on his professional life as a chiropractic physician. The discussion then moves to Dr. Rerucha, who provides insights into his journey with laser therapy and its transformative effects on patients, particularly highlighting the story of a 75-year-old patient named Gail, whose life was significantly changed through chiropractic care and laser therapy, leading her to become a world champion powerlifter.

 

Key Takeaways:

  • Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT) Applications: LLLT has gained FDA clearances for its therapeutic applications, demonstrating its effectiveness in treating a wide range of health issues and enhancing performance.
  • Personal Journeys with Laser Therapy: Both Dr. Woolner and Dr. Rerucha share personal and professional experiences that showcase the profound impact of laser therapy in their lives and the lives of their patients.
  • Transformative Patient Story: Gail’s story serves as a powerful testament to the potential of chiropractic care combined with laser therapy. Starting as a pain patient with significant physical limitations, Gail became a world-champion powerlifter in her senior years, breaking numerous records and defying age-related expectations.
  • Performance Enhancement: Beyond pain relief, LLLT and chiropractic care are highlighted as tools for performance enhancement, not just for athletes but for individuals across all walks of life seeking to improve their physical capabilities and overall quality of life.
  • Laser Therapy in Chiropractic Practice: The conversation emphasizes how LLLT can be integrated into various chiropractic practices to improve patient outcomes, from pain management to performance optimization.

 

Quotes:

  • Dr. Chad Woolner: “As a chiropractic physician, I have seen firsthand just how powerful laser therapy is helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems.”
  • Dr. Jerome Rerucha: “When I saw lasers, I just kind of had an aha moment of how it was very different from everything else that was being done.”
  • Dr. Jerome Rerucha on Gail: “She was a chronic pain patient and never could lift until she was 68 years old… and now she’s a world champion many times over.”
  • Dr. Andrew Wells: “What’s actually happening when you’re lasering somebody from a performance standpoint on a cellular level? What’s the mechanism of action that’s actually working there?”
  • Dr. Jerome Rerucha: “Lasers work point and shoot, they work better through activation… especially if you have the talent to adjust soft tissue and lasers make everything work better, a lot better.”

Cold Laser Therapy Benefits: Relieving Long Term Symptoms of C-Sections

5-Minute Read

Childbirth is a remarkable experience for any woman to undergo. During the roughly 9 months leading up to the highly anticipated day, expecting mothers spend a lot of time researching and deciding how they would like their birth to go. If the pregnancy is healthy and there are no medical concerns, doctors will mostly opt for a vaginal birth. Even though “natural births” tend to be preferred by obstetricians, there are many reasons why having a C-section may be safer. 

A C-section is a surgery in which your doctor delivers your baby through a surgical incision made in the abdomen or uterus. Cesarean section may be used to deliver your baby if there are complications during labor that could affect your health or your baby’s. However, like with any other major surgery, c-sections may carry long-term symptoms. Learn more about these symptoms and new emerging technologies that are aiding these concerns below. 

What are the long term symptoms of C-sections?

C-section surgery recovery tends to take longer than vaginal delivery. Because this procedure involves cutting through the abdomen muscles, recovery can take 4 to 6 weeks on average, compared to 1 to 2 weeks for a vaginal birth.

Cesareans can have many of the expected risks involved with any major surgery such as risk of infection, vomiting, headaches, and many more. However, postoperative pain is one of the major concerns expecting mothers have about c-sections. According to the U.S. Institute of Medicine, 80% of patients who undergo surgery report postoperative pain, with moderate to extreme pain levels. These symptoms can lead to potentially severe complications and possibly delay recovery for these patients. 

Postoperative pain is an acute form of pain that arises after serious surgical trauma. Post-surgery injured tissue creates muscle spasms, inflammatory reactions, and an afferent neuronal barrage that shock the nervous system. Women experiencing these symptoms feel extreme pain and a pulling sensation months or even years after surgery.

Proper pain management for women who underwent cesarean section is not only essential to decrease infections, and hospitalization, but most importantly, it aids women return to their normal life functions. There are many medical technologies that claim to decrease pain and manage these problems, however, there is one technology that does not only address pain management, but also accelerates the healing of wounds.

How can cold laser therapy aid postoperative pain?

Low-level laser therapy (3LT®) is used on cesarean section patients to accelerate surgical wound healing. 3LT®is a professional’s preferred method in the treatment of post-op pain due to its non-invasive and safe technology. This makes it widely accepted by patients because it reduces the risk of overconsumption of analgesics and other pain management drugs.  LLLT reduces the edema and inflammation after surgery, speeding up the healing process of wounds and modulating metabolic processes.

low level laser therapy

How does cold laser therapy work?

3LT® is an optimal option for those looking for alternatives to prescription pain drugs. So how does laser therapy work anyways? This safe, non-invasive treatment works by exposing skin cells to concentrated wavelengths of low-level red light targeted to help increase cell reproduction.

The target? The mitochondria – the body’s powerhouse. For a deeper dive into the link between mitochondria optimal performance and the overall body’s ability to reduce pain and inflammation, check out the blog How Does Red Light Therapy Work?

How safe are low-level lasers?

The second most commonly asked question aside from how the treatment works is, is it safe? 3LT® is an extremely safe, non-invasive, non-toxic and painless treatment that is not associated with any side effects at this time. The treatment is perfectly safe to use in the management of postoperative pain. Read on if you are interested in learning more about the safety concerns of red light therapy.

C-section births are often an option chosen by expecting mothers and sometimes, an in-labor last resort to ensure a safe birth. No matter what the reason may be, dealing with painful postoperative symptoms should not be a long term deal. Contact Erchonia today to learn more about how our 3LT® treatment can transform your childbirth experience.

How Erchonia Low Level Laser Therapy Works

Podcast Episode # 25: International Sales Director, Joseph Zapolsky’s Erchonia Story

Join us as we interview Joseph Zapolsky, the International Sales Director for Erchonia. As one of Erchonia’s first employees, Joseph brings a unique perspective on HOW and WHY Erchonia has become the preeminent organization for LLLT, worldwide. Go behind the scenes with Joseph as he tells his professional and personal stories.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/joseph-zapolsky-iii-24b1b342/

Transcript

Dr. Chad Woolner:  Hey, what’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells. And this is episode 25 of The Laser Light Show. And on today’s episode we have with us our good friend, Joseph Sapolsky from Erchonia, and we’re going to be chatting with him about his experience and go from there. So let’s get started. 

Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show. 

All right, welcome to the show everybody. And welcome, Andrew and Joseph.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Good to be here. Hey, Joseph, how’s it going?

Joseph Zapolsky: Hey, it’s going great. So happy to finally get to get on an episode and do the podcast with you guys. Obviously, as you know, it’s been a big passion project of mine since we kicked this off. So now to be one of the people that are participating. I couldn’t be more excited.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, just to give the listeners a little bit of context here. We started this podcast really after meeting Joseph and his team at the Parker seminar in Las Vegas. That was really, for Chad and I, one of our first real exposure to low level laser therapy. And, Erchonia really stood out as the front runner in, you know, between all the different companies and people. Not only talking about the benefits of low level laser therapy, but also for people in like the red light therapy space. And so we got a crash course on–we actually just did a recent episode on this couple episodes ago with Dr. Kirk Gair on, you know, the myths and misconceptions about laser therapy. 

And we really, Erchonia really sucked us in to their, to what they’re doing in a good way. And we were really impressed with what they’re doing. And so, Joseph, we have you to thank for that because you’re the one who really helped us take our idea of creating The Laser Light Show and spreading the word and the message about low level laser therapy not only to practitioners, but also to patients. It’s cool, we get a lot of patients who listen to this podcast as well. So my hat to you, Joseph, for helping us get this set up.

Joseph Zapolsky: My pleasure. It’s one of those things where God works in mysterious ways. But the timing was absolutely perfect. Because David Tucek, who’s my counterpart here, he does domestic sales, directing, and I do international sales directing, we knew we had to get into the podcast arena, because it’s such a medium now that everybody’s consuming. And it’s such a great way for people to learn about your products, your services. 

But from a time management standpoint, we just couldn’t figure out a way to host it and get it done ourselves. And lo and behold, you guys reached out to us through the Erchonia website, like you said, we were able to meet up in Parker Vegas, which is always a fun meeting that Parker University puts on, great way to collaborate with people, make connections. And that got the ball rolling. And now here we are, I think 25 episodes in, we got more episodes planned that you guys are recording right now, not only in the next couple of weeks, but at our annual business meeting. So it’s full steam ahead. And I hope that we put together a product that, like you said, doctors, practitioners, the general public is very happy and excited to hear.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  And it’s been a lot of fun, man. And it’s really cool to see just how far this has come in such a short period of time. And yeah, it’s been great. 

But so Joseph, we’ve known you for a little while now. But for those who are listening, do you want to give kind of a quick snapshot of your, not only your experience with Erchonia but maybe life pre-Erchonia and your story?

Joseph Zapolsky: Yeah, I would love to. So my current position here at Erchonia now is International Sales Director. Like I had mentioned, I work with David Tucek, who is one of our founders’ sons, and he does domestic sales. But him and I have been joined at the hip running the sales department for coming up on six years now. And just about two years ago, the international arena came under our umbrella as well. So day in and day out, David and I are directing our sales team, both domestically and internationally. 

We do have a European office, you guys have done podcasts with several people from that office. And then throughout the other regions of the world, where Erchonia is present, we have distributors. 

So day in and day out, a lot of my interaction is coordinating things with these distributors, seeing how to help them get the lasers into different markets. And then once they’re in those markets, how do we showcase the lasers? How do we get into congresses and trade shows in the areas? And how do we educate their doctors? As you guys know, through this podcast, through our seminars, education’s very important to us. So we try to bring that same program to other countries around the world. So doctors can see the differences of low level lasers, and what they can truly do to help people.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  Yeah, that has got to be such…Number one, like, I don’t want to say overwhelming, but maybe it is a bit overwhelming. I mean, for crying out loud. You’re like literally responsible for lasers in the entire world for this company. I mean, that’s, that’s got to…Well, I guess the question right off the top of my head is, what’s that growth look like for you? Because how long have you been with the company?

Joseph Zapolsky: So the growth is unbelievable. We have now been reaching out to all these different areas. And at this point, we’re represented in 48 different countries.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  Holy cow. 

Joseph Zapolsky: As far as myself, the growth has been really fun because I’ve been with the company 20 years now. And when I started, we were renting four little garage spaces at a business park in Arizona, hoping to make a few sales a month and keep things going; to now you know, 20 years later, being a worldwide entity and getting to do a podcast, connect with some famous people getting to travel other countries. I could have never imagined as a 20-year-old kid building our handheld adjusting instruments in a rented garage all those years ago. 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  That’s amazing. That’s absolutely incredible. So 20 years, what were you doing before that?

Joseph Zapolsky: So before that, I had finished high school. And I moved out to Arizona where the company was located at that time. And I was just doing young man’s work that I could make good money. Work in swing shift, or graveyard shift. You know, driving forklifts, picking up heavy boxes – things you could earn a good living at that time. 

Now, I don’t think I could be picking up those heavy boxes. But I was very fortunate because our owner and president Steve Shanks, he’s our other founder along with David’s dad; I met his nephew in seventh grade. So I’ve actually known the families that own Erchonia for much longer than those 20 years, coming up on 30 years now. 

And when I was in Arizona working those warehouse jobs, Erchonia was just starting to get some traction. So David’s dad, Kevin, had known me. I always hung out around the family. And he said, Hey, I can get you some part-time work if you want to make some extra money as a young man. Of course, I was like, “Yeah, let’s do it!” 

So I’d work my swing shift or my graveyard shift. And then I come into Erchonia, about three days a week, four hours a day, doing some sub assemblies and part-time assembly work. And within about six months, he said, “Okay, we got enough work now to get you full time.” So I quit my other job, started with Erchonia full time. And here we are 20 years later, and they always afforded me the opportunity to grow. So I stuck with the company and Lord willing, this is my first real job, if you will, and my last job ever.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  That’s amazing.

Dr. Andrew Wells: That also speaks to it. And for people who know Erchonia, they know what I’m saying is true. That story is also representative of Erchonia as a whole, as a company. 

And we had this conversation a little bit with Dr. Kirk Gair a couple episodes ago, and talking about how a lot of different device and laser companies seemed to like pop up on the market and then go away. They’re like they’re here, they’re there. And the one thing that I can say and having now met a lot of Erchonia employees is they’re a very long term focused organization; not just with their products, but with the people that work there. And it’s no surprise when you look at all the research that’s been done for laser therapy is pretty much all Erchonia research that the other companies cite. And I think it’s just because Erchonia seems to understand that there’s incredible value in long term strategic goals, and not just looking at getting sales, you know, getting lasers in offices and producing, you know, producing, yeah, just selling equipment. They’re really focused on changing an industry, the healthcare industry. And they’ve done that. 

And so to hear, you know, you hear these stories of employees like “I’ve been here for 15 years or 20 years” or “Yeah, I knew them for when I was in seventh grade, for heaven’s sake.” Like, it just goes to show you where Erchonia stands and what they value and their ethics and their principles and why they create the best products on the market. 

And so when people say, like, “Well, why can I buy…Why should I get an Erchonia laser versus this other laser that’s maybe less expensive? Or kind of looks the same? Or whatever?” And the answer is always “Well, when you’re lasering someone’s brain, or as some part of your patient’s body, don’t you want to know that what you’re using on them is not like some fly by night company, and that the company that made this thing that you’re putting on your patients is the real thing?” 

And that’s what like, when, when Chad and I were at that Las Vegas Parker seminar, that was what we noticed, like, wow, like, why would we, you know, if we’re going to promote a laser company, there was no other option for us. It’s like, yeah, that was pretty clear. And so I love that story. And that, and we heard your story, too, when we were in Las Vegas. And that was also with Penny Sneed, same thing. She has been there for like, 20 some years. That’s really cool. That’s really cool. Thanks for sharing that.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, Joseph, my other question for you. I’ve got lots of questions. But since you’ve been there the entire time, you’ve seen not only tremendous growth from the business side of things, but no doubt, you’ve seen tremendous growth from the research side from the, you know, kind of clinical side of things. What would you say, is one of or maybe multiple things, in terms of accomplishments that you’ve seen that have been some of the most remarkable to you, maybe like one of those things where “Man, I would have never thought we had accomplished XYZ?” What are some of those accomplishments as a company that you’ve seen, again, predominantly from the clinical research side of things?

Joseph Zapolsky: On the research side, the thing that really stands out to me the most is how many FDA clearances we have been able to garner over my time at the company. And that speaks to how many different indications for use that the lasers have been proven through level one clinical trials to be effective on. When I started here, we’re working with a single diode red laser, it had an old school egg timer that you’d literally turn to the right and listen to it ticking back to the left as it’s treating, but we were going for neck and shoulder pain. And it’s like, okay, we had seen some different things before we proved it through a study that this would work for that application. But now all these years later to not only prove that out, but to see all these different things we’ve been able to treat, you know, a few examples, chronic low back pain, neck and shoulder pain, acne onychomycosis, non-invasive fat loss, that, to me has really been the wow factor. And if I would have looked at it from all those years ago, and go, we’d be here now, with all these indications and things that we’ve proven the lasers can help people with, I would have never thunk it.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  Yeah, that’s got to be again, like, I’m just trying to put myself in your shoes at that time, like saying, this is cool. Yeah, this laser is helping with, you know, pain, right? Which I think, again, at least for me, from where I’m coming from, before really getting to know Erchonia, what they were doing. I kind of like my attitude was kind of like, yeah, yeah, I know, low levels, they help with, you know, musculoskeletal pain, which I shouldn’t be dismissive of, because that in and of itself, is truly a miracle, especially in light of the, you know, opioid epidemic and crisis that we’re seeing right in front of us play out with, you know, all this garbage that’s out there. What a powerful way to help kind of pave the way to showing people a far superior way to solving that problem. But the crazy part is all of a sudden, you know, over that span of time, you’re seeing the application of these lasers in so many other realms and ways. And so the other question kind of hand in hand with that is, what do you foresee coming down the pipeline in terms of the future of lasers? What you know, this is in a span of 20 years. Or what do you see in the next 20 years? Or what do you hope to see in the next 20 years?

Joseph Zapolsky: I think you hit the nail on the head when you talked about the opioid epidemic. As a company, what I hope for and what we see is looking at the current situations where this country, or countries around the world have an epidemic. Have a real problem to deal with. And we may have a way with lasers to help that. And do so in a completely non-invasive, pain free, drug free way. 

And I think one of the things that we’re the most passionate about and where we’d like to see the company go, as we work into the future, is when it comes to brain based applications. So we’ll be looking at research as far as Alzheimer’s, dementia, things that you’re seeing are serious problems. And if you look at some of the stats, doctors that we work with, like Dr. Dan Murphy, will run the numbers at the seminars he does, it’s going to cripple the health care system on how much money is being spent for those kinds of neurodegenerative disorders. 

So if we can offer a way to help with that, it’s something we’re very excited about, something we’re very proud about. The other thing is, I’d like to see some research as we’ve evolved from non-invasive fat loss, which is a very aesthetic procedure, people all want to look good, feel good. But if we can maybe look at some of the ways when we do this fat loss, how it’s affecting blood markers, as far as cholesterol, A1C, how it may be helping with diabetic peripheral neuropathy, which is something we’re doing a study for, I think those are ways we can expand how we’re doing the research, and really help some serious issues that this country in the world at large is dealing with.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  Yeah, it’s kind of interesting, when you look at the economics of healthcare, and/or even just say, sick care. The question that might be coming to mind for people is like, “Why aren’t low level lasers more mainstream?” You know, and without sounding conspiratorial, the reality of it is that economics support the current model. 

The way things are, you know, that that industry, you know, big pharma and/or the kind of, you know, Western medicine model right now is established and set up in such a way that there are very much deeply vested groups, special interest groups that don’t really have a tremendous incentive to change things all that much. And quite frankly, especially when it comes to shifting things away from, you know, a ongoing, what do we call that recurring revenue model in terms of pharmaceuticals, you know, that they’ve got, you know, their biggest blockbuster drugs are all these, you know, quote, unquote, like lifestyle medications. 

And so I think the thing you said, that’s interesting, Joseph is, at some point in time, people are going to have to recognize even the vested special interest groups are going to have to recognize. You’re going to, you’re going to reach a tipping point, so to speak, you know, where all of a sudden the cost of not doing something is going to, you know, what I mean, exceed the potential loss of revenue from switching to a more effective, safer, more cost-effective solution like lasers, you know, what I mean? Kirk Gair had kind of briefly mentioned this where, like over in Russia, they’ve been ahead of the curve in terms of low level laser therapy. And we had kind of posed the question to him, “Well, why do you think that is? Why does that seem to be the case?” And he said, well, from his perspective, it was simply a matter of dollars and cents, you know, that they’re very much because it’s socialized medicine over there, if they’re, they’re incentivized the opposite, you know, to make sure that they keep costs down, so that they can really be effective in that realm. And so that’s at least one of the reasons but in terms of, does that make sense in terms of, you know, at some point in time, thinking that there’s going to be this kind of tipping point?

Joseph Zapolsky: It does, it makes perfect sense. And I actually think that we’re already starting to see that awakening in this country, where you’re starting to see a lot of doctors working towards functional medicine, working towards preventative medicine, to get ahead of the problems. And like you said, keep the costs down. As sad as that may seem as a way to practice medicine, you’re going to get to a tipping point where the current system can’t keep up with what the problems are presenting and what they’re costing. 

And that is starting to be something I’m seeing a lot more of. So I hope we really do make that change, especially here in the United States. The other thing I’m hoping, which I’m so thankful our owner Steve Shanks was of this mindset. When I first started working for Erchonia a lot of people look to us shining a red light on someone’s shoulder for pain going “You guys are out of your mind. A bunch of craziness, you know, just voodoo medicine!”

And now that he’s really pushed the research and proven it through these level one clinical trials. So the highest form of science to show safety and efficacy. Now you go on PubMed, and there’s a lot of peer-reviewed and published articles. And people are starting to realize, okay, there’s some other ways we can do things here. And a way we can really fight the status quo and make a change.

Dr. Andrew Wells: One of the coolest things we’re seeing in healthcare right now is this really big push into, this is kind of a catchy word right now, but like the biohacking world. And so you now have people who as a result of just traditional health care are really finding solutions on their own. And that’s one of the benefits and curses of the internet, is you can go on and do research on fixing your own health problems. 

Because I mean, man, when least in terms of chronic health care, like our system is not doing a good job of that. And so people are now taking it in their own hands to get themselves better. And I really see, and correct me if I’m wrong, Joseph, but through doctor’s prescription, I would see lasers becoming a almost like a household tool for families to be able to use. Not just because they’re powerful tools, but because of the scope of what you can use them for. 

We talked about fat loss, we talked about pain, we talked about the potential for brain health. We talked about toenail fungus of all things like what it’s almost like what can a laser not do? It seems like almost like a Jedi wand, you can use it for all these different things. And so where my mind went, as I’m hearing this is just a really powerful tool that a family would have in their quote unquote, medicine cabinet. They would have light therapy. And my question for you, Joseph, like, how are you using this at home? I got to imagine you’ve been with a company now for a long time. What does that look like for your health and like your family’s health?

Joseph Zapolsky: Yeah, and I agree with you, Dr. Wells. I think it’s something that if we do it the right way, proving it out through the studies that are required to show that it can be used at home. As you mentioned, it is a prescription device. So a doctor does have to prescribe it for a patient to use it. It could be something that could help with a lot of different issues people experience at home. And sometimes they may not be able to see a doctor all of the time. So they might benefit from using it on a more regular basis. 

Myself personally, I’ve been very fortunate working for this company. I have a daughter who has Down syndrome. That was something that we did not know about until she was born. My wife working in the medical field does everything by the book. So all of the blood work she did, all of the scans, she did all the things you do through a normal pregnancy, showed no signs of any problems. 

So until our daughter was born, Cecilia, we had no idea that she had Down syndrome. Now with the guidance of Dr. Trevor Berry, who has been on the podcast, Dr. Dan Murphy, who has been on the podcast, and Dr. Robert Silverman who has been on the podcast, we were able to get some good guidance from them on chiropractic care for her, on laser therapy for her, on nutrition for her. Not only her but mom, when she was breastfeeding when she was doing the things early in development. And we’ve been so fortunate that her development is ahead of the curve. She’s been unbelievably healthy. I probably say the only problem is she’s just ornery so all things considered. We’re pretty lucky and we’ll take that but it just goes to show how having those kinds of resources and you mentioned Dr. Wells people looking at what they can do to improve the health and well being of themselves and their families. This becomes another tool that can play a wonderful part in that

Dr. Chad Woolner:  I’d like to dive just a little bit deeper if you don’t mind Joseph, on this because this is fascinating to me, you know. Down syndrome is a fairly common you know, diagnosis. You know, there I don’t know what the percentages, but I think we all probably know someone have a family member or a friend that you know has Down syndrome. And so when you say that it’s helped, can you can you quantify that in any way or give us a little bit more of a tangible like, what would your daughter look like without doing this you know, in terms of, and I know you’re not just putting it all on laser it’s just it’s laser, and it’s magic obviously you’re talking a more holistic approach of diet, lifestyle, chiropractic, all of that included. But maybe paint for those listening who either; A have a family member or a friend with Down syndrome, you know or know someone who does, what does that look like with or without you know, if you weren’t doing those things, what would things look like? What has it looked like since doing those things?

Joseph Zapolsky: Absolutely. And I think you really hit the nail on the head Dr. Woolner as far as the holistic approach. And what I mean by that is it’s a combination of the right foods, the right nutrition, laser therapy, and then not only that, but anybody out there that’s listening, that may be struggling with these things, you’re going to be your child’s best advocate. 

So get out in your local community and find the right resources. There’s different therapies, different school systems, things that can really help. So I think the combination of that, when I’m painting the picture for other people is; on a growth chart, she just had her checkup at seven years old. They’ve never put her on the growth chart for a child with Down syndrome. She’s on a growth chart for a normal child her age. And she’s in the 90th percentile as far as height, which a lot of kids with Down syndrome, they do not grow as tall. When it comes to what she’s able to do as far as physical activity, playing, climbing, running, jumping, she has no issues. I believe that big combination of the physical therapy she received from her schooling system, the laser, and the proper nutrition. 

We’ve also been very fortunate that so far, at seven years old, she has never had a surgery. And she’s had no problems with her hearing and her sight, which once again, for people out there who know or who have someone in their family with Down syndrome. Those are very common things that they deal with. So am I going to sit here and go, “Oh, the laser magically fixed all that!” No, I think it’s one resource in a toolbox that we were very fortunate to have at our disposal to help with her development and her health.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  What’s so cool to me almost to the point of like, goosebumps when you’re sharing that, like seriously, is it’s not just this, like subjective, nebulous, like, “We think she’s doing better” you know what I mean? Like, because as a parent, I would want to lean that way, if I had a child that needed some attention and some help, I would want nothing more than to lean into that and hope and start to like, almost like, I don’t want to say imagine things, but I think it’s only inevitable that you want to. And so what’s cool about this is that here, you’re talking very concrete, objective measures that you can see. And again, not attributing 100%, it’s all because of the laser. But at the same token to you got to attribute something to the to the laser there. You can’t just say, “Oh, no, that’s just because of…” because I guarantee you there are those out there who probably do incorporate good nutrition, and other things, and maybe aren’t seeing potentially the same, you know, objective results that they would potentially hope for. And so you have to imagine laser is playing a critical role in that as well. So that’s, that’s really exciting to hear that, you know that it’s not just this, like crossing your fingers subjective hope, I hope it’s working, I think it’s working. But instead, you’re seeing, like, very objective measures there. That’s incredible.

Joseph Zapolsky: Very fortunate, I’m very thankful to be a part of this company, where I not only have the lasers that we can use, but we’ve been so fortunate to work with the doctors we have, and I mentioned a few of them there. So to be able to get their guidance and their help. It’s just a wonderful support system. And like you had mentioned Andrew, talking about the Erchonia family, it really is a family and to have that support system as well. It’s been great, and I couldn’t be more thankful.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  Yes, for those who are listening, I would simply say, and I really do mean this with all sincerity, Erchonia has done…if there’s one thing Erchonia has done, they’ve done a lot of right things. But if there’s one thing they’ve really done, right. They have curated some of the world’s best experts. They’ve done…we’ve said this before, I think on the podcast, but that’s and that’s one of the coolest things we get as a result of being able to host this podcast, the opportunity to talk to these experts. But literally the smartest doctors in the world are all involved with Erchonia. 

And so it’s really cool to be able to see how Erchonia has just done that, and continues to do that, you know. There’s certainly an, I think, an attraction factor there when, you know, brilliant doctors see the research that Erchonia is doing they gravitate towards it. And so that’s, again, one of the cool things that for those listening, I think a certain peace of mind and reassurance that’s there knowing that it’s not just the technology but also the company that Erchonia keeps. They bring in some of the world’s best. And so it’s really cool to see that and to see that information, because collectively that makes a big difference, you know, moving forward with the knowledge base and/or you know that in and of itself being such a powerful resource for practitioners and for patients alike.

Dr. Andrew Wells: One of the things I’m noticing with laser therapy, that if you’re as I’m now as I now know about laser therapy and that’s…now seeing trends you saw years ago. Everybody, like Joseph mentioned earlier, he started with like one red light and now and then Erchonia moved to using violet lights and I think the violet lights were also…correct me if I’m wrong. So those were, I believe, Kirk Gair mentioned that those were…in that research, some of that was done in Russia. Is that correct? 

Joseph Zapolsky: There has been research done in Russia with the violet lasers. There was also some done at the University of Illinois. And then, what Erchonia has done as well. So obviously that portfolio, or that library of research when it comes to violet lasers, specific ones at 405 nanometer, is ever expanding. 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, and I’ve yet to see companies, other than Erchonia, put that research into actual practical lasers. So you have red, you have violet and you also have green. I don’t see anybody…other companies doing that, but I see other companies now trying to kind of emulate that and start to do that as well. So just another plug for Erchonia that they’re always on the cutting edge of what laser therapies are doing. But also are forward thinking in that respect where they saw, you know they saw the benefit and did it before anyone else was doing it. And I think, yeah, that just shows the wisdom and longevity of Erchonia as a company. 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  So, Joe-

Joseph Zapolsky: And hopefully we can, oh sorry, go ahead. 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  No, you keep going, Joseph. 

Joseph Zapolsky: Hopefully we can continue to do that, because it’s something that’s important to us as a company to be at the forefront of what laser therapy can do to help people, and not every research project is going to work. Not everything we try to come up with is going to come through and be the next greatest thing. But as a company, it’s important for us to continue to push that envelope and the category of low level laser. So for anybody who is interested in us as a company, who has already supported us by purchasing a laser, about using our equipment. We’re going to continue to do that, so rest assured as we move into the future, that is important to Erchonia, to expand what lasers can do to keep solidifying the laser’s safety and efficacy through research and also to continue educating. I think we’ve done a great job educating in the US. Now it’s time to take that more globally so other countries, the distributors we’re working with can share that information as to why what we’re doing is different. 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  To that end, Joseph, you had mentioned earlier that you’ve got coming up here in November, Erchonia annual business meeting for the practitioners, specifically, who are listening. What can they expect at this year’s business meeting? What in terms of kind of the event itself, and or any exciting announcements or any cool things that are coming down the pipeline that you can hint at, or drop hints at, or give us as much information as you’re at liberty to give. 

Joseph Zapolsky: So the annual business meeting is our funnest event of the year. If you need more information, you can hop on Erchonia’s website and look at all of the stuff we’re doing and get registered there. Just Erchonia.com. But it’ll be November 3rd through 5th. It’s at the Ritz Carlton in Orlando, and this year is going to be our best event ever. 

We have two different educational tracks at the meeting. One will offer CE hours for chiropractors, which is the first Healthcare Group that supported us, so it’s important for us to give back. So while they’re attending on the Thursday, and Friday, they can get 12 CE hours for being there. 

We’re then going to have a medical room which is going to have MDs, DOs, nurse practitioners, and podiatrists teaching about different ways lasers can help in their professions. So there’s the chance for education, and like you had mentioned, the best doctors in the world teaching these classes. Now also, we’re going to be doing live episodes of the podcast with you guys there, which is an exciting new add. We have never done that, so there’s going to be a lot of people doing live podcast episodes there on Friday.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  That’s gonna be fun. 

Joseph Zapolsky: Oh yeah. Oh yeah! On Friday, evening we’re doing a cocktail party and it’s going to be a masquerade ball, which to me is very exciting. I think everybody after the pandemic’s looking to get out, dress up nice, have some fun. So that’ll be something we do there. 

And on Saturday we do a golf tournament which I’m hoping to win for the second time in three years with the help of Trevor Berry and we all have a ringer on our team. His name is EJ. He’s the partner of Diana DaGrosa, who did one of the podcast episodes with you and, man can he hit a golf ball well. So that’ll be what we’re doing at the meeting, along with the possibility of introducing a new product and having a celebrity guest speaker there, which I can’t divulge those details, but we would love for you guys to come take a look at it.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  So yeah, lots to look forward to. And so for docs who are listening, go to Erchonia website and they can register right now. Cost for the event is, I’m just looking right now, I’m on the website. What’s the cost for the event? 

Joseph Zapolsky: It’ll vary depending on what you want to do, cause we’ve made it customizable, where you can just do the education classes. 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  OK. 

Joseph Zapolsky: Just do the cocktail party. Just do the golf tournament. So it really depends what you want to take part of. 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  You know that that’s the other thing too, in terms of CEs, that’s one of the things that I’ve always just admired about Erchonia is they always provide some of the most cost-effective ways for docs to get CE credits. And you know, I’ll admit I was one of those docs for a long period of time where it was like when it…when CE time came, it was always “OK. What’s going to be the lowest cost and the quickest and easiest and if it happens to be entertaining and/or enlightening and cool, that’s just a bonus cherry on top.” I know that’s, like, embarrassing to admit, but. It’s just the truth, but since then you know, and especially since with Erchonia, it’s like you go to these events and they do such a phenomenal job again with really providing just such incredible, I’ll give a huge shout-out to Jerome Rerucha

I went to his Erchonia seminar in Salt Lake. Man, talk about powerful hands-on application that was so clinically relevant. We’ve, we’ve adopted and incorporated at least three or four components of what he taught. Just as a direct result of what he taught in our clinic. And so just, I’m sharing this for practitioners because if you haven’t yet been to another Erchonia event, what better opportunity and what better time to jump in than their business event this year? And if you have, you know what I’m saying. You know that they do just such an incredible job. And so we’re really looking forward to that. I think that’s going to be a ton of fun, and I’m excited to see what kind of the new announcements are. I think that’s going to be…we’ve got some exciting stuff that no doubt will be. We’ll be discussing on future podcast episodes for sure. 

Joseph Zapolsky: Yeah, absolutely, and that event, I mean, we pride ourselves on having a good time as a company. So if you haven’t yet had a chance to experience it, I promise you’re going to have a really fun time. The property is beautiful, the golf course is beautiful. It’s just so much fun and for anybody that may be listening, that’s thinking of coming in from out of state, It’s also a wonderful place if you’re bringing family with you, friends with you. Because being in that central Orlando area you’re close to Disney World, you’re close to Universal Studios. Obviously, it’s one of the towns that has so much as far as entertainment and dining. Because there’s so many conferences in the area. So it’s a great place to come where maybe you don’t only come to our meeting, but you make it a bit of a trip and enjoy the rest of the stuff that Central Florida has to offer, while you’re in town for, you know, five days a week. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it’s going to be incredible, man going to be…and it’s beautiful. It’s at that Ritz Carlton, correct? Correct, yeah, what? What an incredible…I’m looking at the picture right now. It is. Yeah, it’s going to be an incredible venue. It’s going to be a ton of fun. So fantastic Andrew. Anything else you wanted to go over?

Dr. Andrew Wells: No, the event’s just a month away, so make sure to go on the website. Get a ticket, make some travel plans if you need to fly in and. And yeah, I haven’t been to this event yet, but we’ll be there in a month. Chad and I both, and we’re really looking forward to it. And I know from talking to other docs and it’s just an amazingly fun educational event and it’s right before the holidays when docs and patients start to like wind down before the holidays. 

So this is like one more like business, really fun business event before you know at that time of year people kind of get dormant in the month of December. So let’s go out in style. I’m looking forward to it. And Joseph, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thanks for sharing your story and your history with Erchonia and some of your family and personal stories. That means a lot to us and I think will also mean a lot to our audience. And also to know that you guys practice what you preach. And that says a lot about you and your company and the products that you guys use so thank you. 

Joseph Zapolsky: My pleasure guys, I really enjoyed being on here and sharing and it’s one of the best parts of this journey. And not only do I get to make a nice living, but doing so in a manner that helps a lot of people. I love it and hopefully I’ll be back on for a future episode and maybe we can dive into some different topics or different things you guys think that the audience would want to hear.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  That’s awesome, man, for sure. That is absolutely for sure. So Joseph, if we don’t see you in person before then, which I don’t think we will, we are going to see you here real soon, just in a few short weeks at the business event. And for those listening, if you guys are planning on attending the business event, please make sure to connect with us in person. We’d love to see you. Let us know if you’re a listener of the podcast and we get a kick out of that, so looking forward to connecting with all of you as well in person. And thanks for listening to this episode. We’ll chat with you guys on the next step, so have a good one. 

Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchnoia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.