Podcast Episode #13: The Family Business with Vanessa Brown

Join us as we interview Vanessa Brown, nominee for female entrepreneur of the year in the northern UK. After seeing the amazing benefits or Erchonia lasers as a healthcare provider, Vanessa joined the Erchonia family to help other experts learn how to use lasers to help more patients and build a dynamic business.

Transcript:

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells, and this is episode 13 of the Laser Light Show. And on today’s episode, we have with us Vanessa Brown, and she’s gonna be talking about the family business. So let’s get to it.

[INTRO]

Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs, synced up to some of my favorite music from The Beatles to Pink Floyd, to Jimi Hendrix and Metallica. They were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have. Found affected my life decades later as a chiropractic physician. I have seen firsthand just how powerful laser therapy is at helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers.On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Walner. With my good friend, Dr. Andrew Wells, and welcome to the Laser Light Show.

Dr. Chad Woolner: On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Warner, along with my good friend, Dr. Andrew Wells, and welcome to the Laser Light Show. All right. Welcome to the show everybody, and a huge welcome to Vanessa. Glad to have you here.

Vanessa Brown: Hey, so good to be here.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So Vanessa, you are over in the uk, is that correct?

Vanessa Brown: Correct. Yeah, I’m over in the north of England at the moment. The weather changes for July, which is good.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome. Yeah. We were saying before the show, the title of this episode sounded like we were gonna be interviewing, a mafia Family is what it was. But this is not a mafia family. This is a healthcare family, is what we’re talking about here.

Vanessa Brown: Yeah. I mean, we could rebrand The Sopranos probably, but I mean, we’ll see. We’ll see how this podcast goes and then see there could be a future for it.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s hilarious. It’s interesting the more podcast episodes we do, this is number 13, but if you go back and listen to some of the previous episodes, you’re gonna hear this common theme with rc that this is a family business.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. And you don’t have the last name shanks. So you weren’t born into the family, but maybe we can start off by talking about how you actually are the ER family. Maybe you can start off there.

Vanessa Brown: Yeah. Yeah. So I have been involved in business since I was a young girl, so probably since about 10, 11 years old. I’ve been involved in family business, my own family business, and my own kind of entrepreneurship things that I do. I started out in business when I was about 12 years old. And I would basically sell celebrity autographs on eBay. I would write to celebrities. I would get their autographs for free, and then I would sell them for about 20, 30 pounds each.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s genius.

Vanessa Brown: So that’s how I kinda first started in business. Obviously I think then people caught on that you can just write them letters and they will send you them for free instead of obviously having to buy them. So that obviously business, I had to switch it up a little, and then I didn’t, when I just, just for the record, I didn’t realize that, and so the wheels are turning in my head right now. I think I’m gonna start that business here in the States . Well, I actually did, so obviously I’m in England, so I used to write like reality TV kind of people over in England. But I did write a few letters to people in the States and I didn’t actually hear back from anyone. So maybe you guys can do that and then you might get a better response because obviously your address will be a US Postal address, so it’ll be okay.

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s amazing.

Vanessa Brown: And then what happened was when I was about, kind of 13, 14, my parents had a family business I was involved in from a young age. So I’ve always had that business sort of, sense and I’ve always, always wanted to do that. Then I went to school, then I went to university. I graduated with a Master’s in International Business Management and then I took over our family business. So hence the family business podcast title. Originally it was a health and wellness clinic, which I think tied in so nicely to the ethos that Erchonia has all about improving health. It’s all about improving wellbeing for. So I took over the family business and it was originally health and wellness. And when I graduated and now it was five years ago,, I rebranded it into a medical aesthetic spa. So we basically focus on result driven face, body and laser treatment.We’re an award-winning clinic, we’re a C Q C registered clinic. So for anybody, in the UK listening, that basically means we’re a medical grade, and a medical ledge clinic. So everything is done to the highest standard. So when you do anything to the highest standards, you need to be using the most effective clinically proven technologies that are on the market. That’s obviously what patients looks for. So I suppose that’s how I got into Erchonia because as, you know, a business woman who runs a business looking for the next latest thing, the next latest piece of technology,, being in the UK we always look at what’s in the states because the states are so far ahead that’s so much more advanced than we are in the UK. So whatever happens in the States, I always look at that as. I came across the Emerald Laser, which is a CO’s premium fat loss laser. I came across that probably about 18 months ago now, and I was really impressed with it. I wanted to bring it into my own clinic, because we were missing a gap. We were missing technology that could treat larger patients, but wouldn’t just treat larger patients would do it from a very safe and healthy and effective way. In Europe and the UK we are bombarded with so many different devices that just don’t, they do not have an FDA clearance to do what they are promoting. I was looking for something that was really result driven and then I came across the Emerald Laser and then I met Simon Ramshaw, who everyone knows is the managing director of Erchonia over in Europe and then East Africa. And, yeah, conversations just started going from that point. Simon was looking for somebody to run the UK market and I was available. I was at that point where I’d grown the business so much that I didn’t need to be involved in it on a day-to-day basis and I think that’s the good thing about being an entrepreneur and being a businesswoman. You wanna build a business up so that your business generates income when you don’t physically have to be there. So yeah, Simon was looking for somebody to run the UK market, and it just happened, our paths crossed at the right time, and yeah, that’s how I joined.

Chad Woolner: Really? That’s amazing. So what, what was it that I, imagine that not many, clinic owners and operators would ever sort of make the gap between representing the, so you started off, in other words, you started off with the client and now you’re actually representing RC to other providers. What was it, what was special about RCIA that made you even consider that opportunity of being not only a client but also working with Erchonia.

Vanessa Brown: Yeah, I think it’s because it’s still a family business. Obviously Erchonia in the state is still family oriented. Obviously the company has grown so much over the last 26 years, but it is still a family orientated company. Coming from a family business myself, that’s a really important value that I feel when I look to go into partnership with a company. So that ethos resonates a lot with me and all of every single Erchonia doctor that uses the lasers thoroughly believes in what they do. You know, Erchonia is not the type of company that will pay doctors to say what they want them to, to stay at the end of the day. It’s all that belief that really comes from your own experience. So when I speak to other clinic owners in the UK, I can talk firsthand from my experience, and I know that the lasers deliver a, I haven’t seen anything that can deliver a result when it comes to fat loss, quite like the emeralds. Do you speak from your own personal experiences, firsthand results that you see? and I think that that adds so much value. And that’s what I really enjoy. I really enjoy sharing my experience. I really enjoy teaching other clinics how they can integrate, let’s say, the emeralds into their practice and how they can make it a success because the technology is so great that so many more people need to have access to it. It’d be great if every single person had a handheld laser, but you know, it’s, it’s maybe. Feasible as we’d like it to be. But yeah, the technology speaks for itself and it’s, I just love every day talking about it because it just comes so naturally.

Dr. Andrew Wells: That was one of the things that Simon had mentioned was the challenge in the European markets is they seem to be, way more flooded and inundated with, you know, he dubbed the Wild West, you know, even though it’s in the East to US. Anyways, , you know, there were just so many different, you know, various. Technologies and products that were being presented, that it’s gotta be pretty exhausting for doctors to see all of this and, and try and make sense of all this. And so, for you, obviously that’s what drew you to Erchonia was the fact that it stood out above. A lot of these other technologies. The question I would have for you is, how do you help doctors kind of make that distinction? Cause that was one of the conversations and questions we had for Simon as well, is, you know, how are you able to really help convey that, to the doctors so that they don’t just lump this together and kind of put this in with all the Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I’ve, I’ve seen this before. I’ve, I’ve done this before. Yeah. These things don’t work. You know, how is that being conveyed to them?

Vanessa Brown: Yeah, but it’s obviously just having an honest conversation with doctors that is so, so important. It’s like, let’s say if you listen to Trevor Barry, you listen to Dave Murphy, you listen to Rob Silverman, when they talk, they talk from their own clinical experience. So it’s not as if you are trying to, let’s say, sell something to somebody. Obviously being a businesswoman, that’s obviously what we’re born to do. You know, it’s a skill that we have. However, I always think you want to talk about how you’ve made it a success because then people will stay, okay, well that’s quite straightforward. This is the template of what I do, and then they can learn from that really. So that’s what I do, especially with a lot of the clinics in the UK. I talk to them about how we’ve integrated the laser into our practice, the different plans that we have, how they can make a serious return on investment, which is so important when you’re investing a lot of money into something. You want a quick return on investments and you wanna be confident in your investments. So I teach them that and I think that that’s so, so important. I always have Erchonia , especially in the UK. We’re not like other companies in the marketplace. We don’t wanna flood the market with so many different devices. We prefer to have real relationships with our doctors, real relationships with our clinics. And I think that’s what stands us out from the rest. Not only the fact that we have the most result driven technology with the highest level of scientific backing, and that, that for me is a big, big reason why I decided to join the company. You know, going from running your own business to working for a company is very different. So that was a big, big, kind of motivation for me. And, you know, you’ve got to get on with the people that you work with. You’ve got to enjoy where you work. And you know, Erchonia definitely delivers.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s, that’s important. I was gonna say, I think I read in your bio that you guys at your clinic have over 1,505 star reviews. Is that correct?

Vanessa Brown: We do, yes. So we have, yes, we have over 300 on Google alone and on our booking software. I believe it’s over 1,100. So far, so yeah, we do, we do have quite a lot of five star reviews. So again, the whole patient experience is very, very important for clinics because everyone can have a machine. Everyone can have a device that someone doesn’t come to your clinic just because of one device you have, right? It’s that full patient experience that you have. From, let’s say the moment you book an appointment, the moment you walk in through the front door, you see the receptionist, you speak to them before you actually even go in for your appointment, you know, when you have like a glass of water. It’s that full experience that, I think, sets you out from competition and that’s how you’re gonna generate repeat business at the end of the day.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and, and I think what you’re talking about. Hopefully, maybe tying this all together is when people invest in a piece of technology like this, I think they want to know and feel that they’re not just investing in the technology itself, but also they’re investing in those relationships that come naturally or should come naturally attached to that technology. Yeah. And as a result of kind of, again, what Erchonia has brought to the table in terms of that kind of family dynamic. I think that’s something really cool that doctors can, can feel a certain level of assurance and confidence in, you included, you know, is that the reason why I brought up the, the, the 1,505 star reviews is I think that says a lot, that speaks really loud to who they’re going to be getting involved with. You know, that, that you’re, that’s something we reiterate to doctors all the time. Both Dr. Wells and I are, we try and help them understand I’m, I’m full-time in practice myself, and so I want them to need them to know, like I’m right there in the trenches alongside you. I’m not simply, you know, this distantly removed consultant, but rather I’m involved in this as well as you are as well. And so I think that that bodes very well for their confidence in working with you and working with Erchonia. You know that when they invest, they’re gonna be involved with, and working with kind of, almost partnering with people that they know they can trust.

Vanessa Brown: Yeah, definitely. You don’t really get that ethos with a lot of companies. And I was saying yesterday, just before we decided to film this pop podcast, I had an interview because I’m a finalist in a Young Entrepreneur of the Year award for women in the northwest of England.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Congratulations.

Vanessa Brown: And I was, thank you so much. I was saying one of the things that I really love to do is to share my experiences with people and to, to help them get better in their own career and in their own professional development. That’s something that I really enjoy doing and I learn all the time from other clinics, like I go to clinics, I speak to other doctors, and I pick up tips and I think, well, that’s how we can improve our clinic. I’ll bring that back. You know, which is why I always think it’s so, so important to network with your peers, network with other doctors, network with other clinic owners, because you never know when you have a conversation with someone, what tip you may pick up. So that’s really useful. And I teach our doctors and clinics to do the same.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, that’s brilliant, brilliant insight. I wanted to switch gears a little bit, Vanessa, maybe, you can talk to how you’re using these lasers in your clinic with aesthetics. You mentioned body contouring, and we hear a lot about laser therapy for fat loss and body contouring, but what ways are you actually using this on patients?

Vanessa Brown: For what, like what types of conditions or what is the outcome?

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yes, that, that some of your patients are coming to see you for;

Vanessa Brown: Okay, so we have the Emerald Laser and we have the E B R L laser, and we have the Accelerate laser as well. So we use the Emerald Laser as essentially our gold standard when it comes to fat loss. So anytime a patient comes in and they’re concerned with fat loss, you need to dubuque an area and you need to dubuque it before you start sculpting it with other types of body contouring technologies that you’re likely to have in the clinic. So our Emerald Laser is our go-to for fat. It works extremely effectively, obviously because it’s a cold laser, there’s no downtime with the treatment, so patients don’t feel any discomfort. Typically with fat loss technologies, you are used to something being painful, uncomfortable. It’s not what you really want and you look forward to it if you have to have multiple sessions. So when you come into the Emerald Laser, it’s obviously a very pain-free treatment. And patients really look forward to coming for their next session. So we typically do two treatments a week for a period of either four or six weeks, depending on how much fat that patient has to lose. Obviously because the Emerald laser is FDA cleared for overall body circumference, BMI to 40, the larger the patients we find that they need, extra treatments obviously, cause there’s more factor breakdown.vSo we do different packages. We tend to do packages with six, um, eight or 10 treatments depending on the patient’s needs, their lifestyle. Um, so yeah, that’s typically how we use the ODE laser. Anyone who comes in for fat loss, and that’ll be used at the abdomen, thighs, the back, the arms, anywhere. We will always, always go to the Emerald Laser. Two deep broken areas and to break down the start, when we look at using, either the E V R L or the accelerate, which is obviously the 6 35 nanometer wavelength in the 4 0 5 nanometer wavelength, we basically use that for accelerated healing and pain management. We also, sometimes with the Emerald laser, we’ll treat the vagus nerve to add that extra element of health and wellness to the treatment plan. You know, if you’ve got a patient who, um, has a few different health conditions, you’d need to improve their overall health. And there’s nothing better obviously then let’s say the E V R L or the accelerator that will do that. And because of the power of the two, two wavelengths at 65 and 4 0 5 as well,

Dr. Andrew Wells: So you, you mentioned that you con, sort of converted your family. More from, what is it, from a pain based clinic into aesthetics. Tell me about that, that transition.

Vanessa Brown: Yeah, so it started off in 2009 as, um, a health and wellbeing clinic. So we, actually brought technology, ironically from the states as well. We used hydrotherapy beds, vibration were quite a big trend back in 2009, 2010, and we basically, It was more of a fitness clinic. However, my passion has always been kind of like aesthetics in beauty, but in result-driven obviously treatment. So then, naturally the business wanted to go through a stage of remodeling because obviously trends change in business. And this is another thing to really, really keep an eye out as an entrepreneur. You need to keep an eye on the latest trends and the latest technological advancements, because if you don’t keep up to date with that, you’re just gonna fall behind your competition. So the business came to a point where it needed to be restructured. I just graduated. I was a typical person that had just graduated. I didn’t know what I wanted to do. You know, I think everyone is usually in that same boat. Some people know from a young age. I was not one of those people. I always knew I wanted to be in business, but I didn’t really know what I wanted to do after you graduate and then as soon as you graduate, you’re like, okay, well what do I do now? So then naturally my mom was like, well, do you know what? This business needs to be structured. It needs to be. So then she was like, do you wanna take over the business? And I was like, look, I don’t really wanna work for anybody. I wanna be my own boss. Like, you know, you do, your mom’s, your mom, you don’t want her boss if you’re around at work. She was like, she was like, honestly, like, I will not be involved whatsoever. You do your thing, I will leave you to it. And then sort of after, about a 10, 12 month period. Revenue massively increased. We rebranded, we started with one treatment room. Um, we now have nine treatment rooms in total. Wow. We’ve invested over 50,000 pounds in a refurbishment, and we have over probably 750,000 pounds worth equipment in that clinic, top end equipment, and obviously the econ lasers fall within that top end spectrum. The reason I mentioned the level of investment is because the level of investment in technology is important because there’s copycat devices out there that just do not work. So you can buy a machine for, let’s say, a fraction of the price, but it will not deliver the results to your patients. And your patients will then say, well, I went there and it didn’t. Business is word of mouth. If you do not have a good reputation, you cannot grow your business organically. It’s just a failure. So you have to invest in the right type of technology, and you have to do your research as to what the best technology is out there. And that’s, I suppose, why. The business continues to grow, even through the pandemic it grew. It’s because patients are looking for, they’re, they’re clever now. They wanna spend their hard-earned money on something that they know is gonna improve their life and improve their overall health. So they do their due diligence. So yeah, you’ve, you’ve got to invest in the best possible technology. Otherwise, at the end of the day, you’re letting your patients down. You may think you’re saving money in the short term, but you’re really not.

Dr. Andrew Wells : Yeah. I think a really important point that I should kind of reemphasize for doctors who are listening to this is that, I think very naturally they want to think in terms of reducing overhead and I would just simply echo exactly what you said. The one area that you shouldn’t be looking to cut corners on is the technology that you’re incorporating into your, into your practice, for the very reasons that you said, you know, and, and the thing is, is that I’ve seen. Over the years being in practice, I’ve seen, you know, in various locations, in working with doctors, I call the clinics that do that churn and burn clinics because the only way that they can make a go of that, because they’re not delivering results, is they have to constantly.

You know, kind of burn out an area with their marketing and then, and then they basically take the carnival to the next town. Yeah. You know, and, and do that. What you’re talking about is a business model that has sustainable growth. You can, you don’t have to leave the area, so to speak, do the, do the walk of shame because you’re delivering what you’re, what you’re promising in essence, because you’ve invested in that technology, because you’re delivering results for people. And so there’s this just very natural kind of, You know, organic, expansion and growth that happens as a result of that because you, you know, that what you’ve, what you’ve put into it in terms of the investment, not just the money investment, but the time and education investment as well. It pays off naturally. So, that’s awesome. That’s a really important point that I hope doctors who are listening, clue into. I, I remember, Chad, we were, we were at a conference together. This was a while. and I remember, you know, talking to other doctors at this conference and, and this was right when we started to first learn about Erchonia and I remember asking this other doctor who also runs a consulting business, I said, Hey, what do you think about Erchonia lasers? And I asked him that question because he also, in his company’s business advocates, a similar type of, actually I’ll say a technology that admits red light . So it’s not, not laser technology, but I said, Hey, what do you think about Erchonia? And he said, oh, don’t, yeah, don’t, don’t buy one of those. They’re too expensive. He’s like, I got better, I got a much better thing. And I know what he sells. He sells a device that he buys from China. White labels it and sells it to his doctors. And think about the reason I asked this guy this question. The interesting thing about his following is. Where they’re very much like you said Chad, they like the circus tent. Yes. They like, they get really hot on something on this opportunity and they market the heck out of it and it delivers Okay. Results or less than optimal results. I never hear, I never hear of like massive success stories out of that group or patients. You always hear about business success Yes, but not clinical success. Right. They sell the heck outta those things. Yes. And I think some docs, sometimes doctors get confused and I’m glad Vanessa’s bringing this up, is not to think so short term. . Well, yeah, I could. I could sell a patient on this thing that emits green light or this thing that emits red light. But if you’re not delivering the result, what you end up doing then is reinvesting a bunch of money on the next best thing, and then having to rebrand your clinic.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yes, set up your clinic again, spend more money on it with new equipment, and then you only have to go through like two cycles of that in your community before your community says. That location there, that clinic, whatever it’s called, not changing every, whatever it’s called this week, don’t trust them.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Right. You know what it’s like, it’s like if you, if you buy a car, right? And you buy like an old secondhand car that is not, you know, it’s probably not reliable. But you could either spend that money on a cheaper car or you could spend money on a brand new car. You are probably by the time you take it into the repair shop, by the time you have to spend so much money to constantly repair it, you are probably better just spending the money on a brand new car that’s more reliable. Will it be safe, will it deliver a result. We’ll literally get you from A to B. And it’s the same concept when it comes to investing in your. At the end of the day, it’s your business and it’s your reputation. You, you know, it’s your hard earned money. You want to be, providing your patients with the best because they don’t deserve any less. Right? And, and if you don’t provide your patients with the best, you’re gonna attract the wrong type of patients. That will just cause you so many problems that it’s probably not even worth you getting up in the morning to go to work. You know, like you just, you need to. Especially when you go into business, you need to have a vision of what type of establishment you wanna be, who’s your demographic, and who you want to target. And, I think that that’s very, very important and that that’s what’s really gonna answer a lot of questions. If you are in business at the moment, you’re thinking to expand or you’re thinking to even get into business, have a vision, and have a solid vision as the way you wanna be. I built up the business in five. and now it runs itself. But that’s hard work. It’s reputation, it’s investment. Everything is continuously invested back into the business because at the end of the day, if you, if you keep having to attract new patients, cause your patients won’t come back, it’s like having a bucket with holes in it.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Absolutely. And you keep putting water in it. It, it’s just, it’s, it’s not sustainable long. Especially if, you know, if you’re in a city where people know you, it’s not a small path. It’s not, you know, big or anything like that, so Yeah. You know, you, you’ve got your fundamentals right. Yeah. And I, and I think too, the order of priority is, is the key here. And what I mean by that is you didn’t first start off by saying, I wonder what technology can make me the most money first. And then maybe if it so happens to be helpful for patients, then we can talk about that as your first priority, your first line of order. How can I deliver the best possible result or solution for a particular patient problem and then work your way from there. It’s, you know, and, and, and that was kind of the same thing that we talked about in a previous episode. We talked about that whole idea that if you’ll put patients first and solve their problems, everything else downstream of that will. Work itself out, you know, it really, really will. The money will come, the success in business will come. But, you know, it’s obvious that what you’re talking about in everything that you’ve been saying, your priorities are in proper order there. First and foremost, you’re making sure that you’re doing what’s best for the patient, making sure that you’re really delivering not just an optimal result, but an optimal experience for the patients as well.

Vanessa Brown: Yes. So that’s, that’s huge. And some doctors are, you know, some doctors are not business people. They haven’t, let’s say, got a degree in business, which is fine, or they may not, you know, be a natural born entrepreneur, but they, they just wanna set up their own business, which is fine. And I think what the great thing about Erchonia is the fact of the after, let’s say the after sales support, it’s not just the case of, you know, we’ll sell you a device, you get on with it. We will not get involved at that point. Erchonia really wants you to. Successful with your equipment. Because at the end of the day, the clinic’s success is a CO’s success. And I know myself in the UK that’s the ethos that I follow. And even my colleague like Penny over in the States, that’s what she does, um, on the West coast with all of her doctors.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Penny’s great. It’s about teaching them. Yeah, she’s fantastic. I spent a lot of time there in Arizona at the start of the year. So I’ll see you again.

Vanessa Brown: Obviously I’m gonna go over in November, but it’s about, it’s about teaching you how to market yourself, how to be as successful as you can so you actually get a lot more added value, for your investment as opposed to just buying a device Erchonia provide you with so many more materials that will actually help you grow as an individual, um, from a career point of view and as, and, you know, a personal point of view as. .

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, I, I would echo everything you just said. Uh, we literally just have experienced this firsthand in our clinic with adding, the FX 4 0 5 and the, serona we had at our open house two weeks ago had an overwhelming success as they, I’m guessing in England they would call that a smashing success.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Is that, is that the correct English first? That was probably.

Vanessa Brown: It was a smashing success and, look, and, and honestly, truly, I can say this, Largely due to just following the guidance and support that was provided by Ric the minute, the minute that the lasers. , they took us through a kind of whole onboarding experience, showing us kind of best practices from a clinical standpoint, best practices from a communication and marketing standpoint. And, we literally just tried as best we could to follow the instructions, and the guidance that they gave us. And the end result was just a, a, a really massive success with us. For our patients and for our practice. It’s been absolutely incredible and so can’t echo that loud enough in terms of that.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. I also, I know this podcast is called The Family Business, and this is gonna be really cheesy what I’m about to say, right? But I always say to doctors, you aren’t just buying into a piece of technology. You aren’t just buying a device. You know, you are literally buying into the full Erchonia family that we have. And I think that that resonated so nicely with me because of that family business element. And every single doctor that comes on, I want them to feel as part of the Erchonia family. You know, we do regular workshops, we do regular seminars. We’re keeping regular contact with our doctors and clinics, and we want them to feel part of everything that we’re doing. So it’s kind of like an extended family that you have as part of your business. Hence, I think why this podcast is, you know, named so perfectly as a family business. Yeah. Because yes, I come from a family business standpoint, but Erchonia is a family business and you are buying into a family business and that.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So what’s important, what is, that’s like real quick, what ACON needs to do is train all their sales reps that when they’re telling them about buying into the family business, they need to have like the Italian hand gestures when they say that. So that, so I reckon, you know, maybe after we wrap up with all the podcasts, maybe we should look at doing a Netflix series, like Erchonia, the ACON family business. That’s right. We’re giving, we’re giving them, you know, we’re gonna give Joseph some tips to the theme for next year’s All I think that’s right. Gonna Joseph’s, Joseph’s gonna make an offer to doctors that they can’t refuse. That’ll be the tagline. Sorry, Andrew, what were you gonna say? You were gonna say something important.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, no, that was way more important than what I’m gonna say. . . I never, I never disagree with your family. . That’s right. That’s such a, you know, it’s interesting, Vanessa, you say that because at the end of the day, the laser is a tool and, and it’s interesting because you can put a tool in one person’s hands and another person’s hands, and they may do something completely different with it, or you may, and we see this sometimes in our functional medicine program or other programs. We, we’ve been a part. If you give somebody a tool without the necessary support, guidance, and, and wisdom that comes with being a part of a family or being a part of a group and an organization that provides that kind of support, I mean, after all, that’s what a family does, right? We support each other, we move each other forward, we celebrate wins, and we pick people up when they’re, when they’re having. And I think, that’s one of the things that we picked up on really quickly with RCIA that made a big impression on, on us was that everybody we talked to that represented Erchonia, who were very smart, they were very passionate, they were very serious about,all of the, the effort and work that’s gone into promoting this technology,, in healthcare. Because the more we learned about this and Simon. In our last episode this really absolutely belongs in, in almost every, if not every single type of healthcare environment across the world. Yeah. It, it, it, you can use it in dentistry, you can use it in podiatry, you can use it in chiropractic offices, you can use it for aesthetics. There’s so many things that the lasers do without side effects, with tremendous benefit that it’s like, why, why wouldn’t this be in the hands of every person? I mean, this. This is gonna be on my Christmas list is E V R L. I want one in my stocking for Christmas. Like everybody should have one of these. Cause there’s so many.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I know, right? I was looking at, I was stocking Simon Reshot, his Facebook and he posted, he reposted some, some post I think it was, Jerome, Roca’s wife maybe who had posted this, this bird flew into like a wall or something and the bird was sitting on the, on the ground and someone was lasering bird. 50 minutes later the bird flew off. Yeah, like, it’s like you can you, and of course, like in veterinary practices as well, we’re gonna have actually a podcast coming up here and how you can use it in veterinary medicine. So,yeah, and, and if you don’t, if you, if you have the tool without the, .it doesn’t come across it. It’s way less powerful than it could be, even though the tool is the same thing. Right. It’s admitting the same light. And so I think that’s the thing that we, especially with this podcast, we want doctors to recognize, is that just beyond the tech, the technology and the lasers, there’s so much that docs can, can take advantage of, even if it’s from clinical protocols, business listening to people like, like you, I mean, the fact that you’re, you know, top, top five young entrepreneurs, like you have a lot of knowledge to share with doctors.

Vanessa Brown: Yeah. And that’s so, so important. And doctors need that help because, like you mentioned, they don’t always have the business skills that they should have and need to have to run a successful practice.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Exactly. Exactly. And it’s all learning, you know, I have listened to Tony Robbins and you learn from the best that is out there. I, I learn from the best. Business people that I know, because they always think you don’t, you know, business is about taking risks. It’s about making mistakes, but you wanna look at the people that are already extremely successful because if you learn from them directly, you cut out all the mistakes that they made. That’s exactly right. You kind of like back yourself and I think as well, like being in business, you need to continuously educate yourself. You need to continuously grow as an individual. So you know, you need to, you need to learn something the best and that Erchonia definitely, definitely attracts. Some of the best, practitioners and clinics and people that work within the company, in the industry. So, it’s a good company to be aligned with.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Definitely. Totally, totally agree. So Vanessa, for doctors who are listening to this, who would like to connect with you and maybe learn a little bit more, and in particular you being involved.

Vanessa Brown: England, the UK.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So this is any docs, but especially those UK docs. What would be some of the best ways that they could get a hold of you or, or kind of connect with you, start getting into your world?

Vanessa Brown: Yeah, perfect. So you can feel free to message me. So my number is first 447 7 9 5 2 3 9 6 8. And my email is bbrown@erchonia.com. I’m on LinkedIn. So you can obviously reach out to me via that platform as well. Any questions, any guidance you need, um, you know, any tips as to how you wanna grow your business or learn more from me. Please feel free to reach out. I’m more than happy to help and like I said I enjoy sharing my wealth of knowledge.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Perfect. We’ll make sure we have that on the show notes as well so that docs can have access to that cuz I’m sure there’s gonna be a lot of docs who will probably wanna pick your brain on a wide range of different, laser and or laser business related questions. So, Vanessa, it has been an absolute pleasure getting the chat with you and getting to know a little bit about your business, your successes. Again, huge congratulations on the top female entrepreneur that is, absolutely incredible, that accomplishment. And I know that that was probably no small feat for you. I know that probably my guess represents decades worth of, uh, blood, sweat, and tears,in terms of what you’ve done there. So that’s huge. When is that, has that already taken place or is that getting ready to take place?

Vanessa Brown: Yeah, it’s in September, so, I’ll keep everybody updated about that.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome. And that’s there in, in the UK in, is that in London? In the uk?

Vanessa Brown: Yes. No, it’s gonna, so the awards are the largest awards for females outside of London. Because, sometimes the north of England gets forgotten about and we focus it with the South, so, it’s nice to have something that, not separate us, but just sort of, acknowledges and all.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That’s amazing. . Well, that’s huge. Yeah. , so. Awesome. Awesome. Anything you want to add, Dr.Wells in closing?

Dr. Andrew Wells: No, no. Thanks Vanessa, for being on the podcast. Really appreciate your knowledge and insights and. . Yeah. Thank you.

Vanessa Brown: Yeah, you’re welcome. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Docs make sure to reach out to Vanessa if you have questions about anything she shared. She shared some really, really good insights that we’re woven in here, some real nuggets that I think could really benefit a lot of practitioners. And, it’s exciting to hear the things that are taking place, not just in the US, for us. You know, obviously in the US we focus a lot on the US but it’s really cool, having chatted with Simon and then now Vanessa. Hearing all the cool things that are happening literally throughout the world. And so we, we appreciate you, Vanessa. We appreciate all the hard work that you’re putting in over there and excited to hear more about your successes moving forward. Docs. We hope this has been incredibly valuable for you, and we will talk to you guys on the next episode. Have a good one.

[OUTRO]

Thanks for listening to the Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia Lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research, news, and links to upcoming live events, as well as ER’s e community, where you can access for free additional resources, including advanced training and business tools.

Again, thanks for listening. We will catch you on the next episode.

Podcast Episode #12: Lasers Across the Pond with Simon Ramshaw

In this episode, we speak with Simon Ramshaw, Managing Director of Erchonia Lasers for Europe, the Middle East, and Africa. Simon is leading the charge to make sure the amazing health benefits of Erchonia’s low-level laser therapy are accessible to health care providers across dozens of borders and different languages.

Linkedin Simon Ramshaw
Erchonia Lasers Website
Linkedin Erchonia Lasers

Transcript:

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Woolner here with Dr. Andrew Wells and our good friend Simon Ramshaw, who is the director of Sales and marketing over in Europe for Erchonia Africa and the Middle East. And on today, episode 12, we’re gonna be talking about lasers across the pond. So let’s get started.

[INTRO]

Dr. Andrew Wells: All right, welcome to the show, Simon. It’s good to meet you.

Simon Ramshaw: Hey, it’s nice to meet you too. I’ve heard a lot about you.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. So, Simon, you are the regional director or, it’s more than a regional managing director. Yeah, managing director for all of Europe. Middle East and Africa, so that is correct. Yeah. So you just got four, four more continents to go to rule the world basically is what it

Simon Ramshaw: Well, we’re going for world domination. So, yeah. That’s the master plan. Yeah, that’s the Dr. Evil plan.

Dr. Chad Woolner: You’re a lot closer than I am. That’s amazing. So, how long have you been with rc?

Simon Ramshaw: Well, I, I got, I became involved with Erchonia back in 2012 with the actual technology. I had a company which unfortunately didn’t survive the recession in sort of 2008,9, 10. Um, and I had a lot of experience in the medical aesthetic market specializing in market launches and things like that. And I just liked the sound of their technology. You know, I thought the market was going more non. There’ll always be a place for surgery, but I thought, I thought that, doctors are gonna be looking for different options for their patients.I came across the, the Red Laser for fat loss, and contacted them because I wanted to represent them in, in Europe, only to find out that another American organization had got involved. Okay. So I started off sort of being a consultant for them and trying to guide them into European territory, which can be full of potholes and a bit of a rollercoaster ride because of the amount of countries, the amount of different languages, different mentalities. So yeah, and unfortunately, the company decided not to listen and, within a year they went into chapter 11 bankruptcy. Which actually then was the important part. It got me into the introduction to Steve, and the guys, and a long story short. Yeah, we got on extremely well. We met them in Liverpool, in the UK in Liverpool, where the best soccer team in the world is from. And notice how I said soccer instead of Liverpool.

Dr. Andrew Wells: There you go. For all US

Simon Ramshaw: And obviously the Beatles, and we got on great. We had similar thoughts, and yeah, and, and the rest is sort of, history. We started a company in the UK, which was to service Europe, the Middle East and Africa. Um, so that we could be closer in time zone to a lot of our customers. And, we’ve just developed the company organically from there.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing.

Dr. Andrew Wells: I have to imagine, like we, we have one regulatory agency really to worry about, is it, how, how complicated is it, is it to navigate all these different regulatory agencies in the three continents that you’re operating on? That must be, that must be, uh, a lot of red tape, I imagine.

Simon Ramshaw: Well, yeah. I mean, luckily we, we’ve got the skills of the Erchonia USA regulatory department, so anything that we, we don’t really want to do or that’s too complicated, we just passed it across to them. So it’s, it’s, it’s quite a good bit.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s nice. Yeah. It makes it a lot easier, I guess.

Simon Ramshaw: So, but, but on a serious note, Andrew, Europe is so under-regulated compared to the us. You know, you guys have your FDA clearances. I know there are some clearances that don’t have the right type of study, but Erchonia has their level one FDA cleared, plus placebo controlled, double blind, randomized multicenter studies in Europe together. CE marking. Really all you need to do is prove the safety of it. So we get absolutely catapulted by all sorts of technologies from China, from different places around the world, which don’t have the level of clinical evidence needed to really give the doctor and their patients the reassurance they need. So it’s been a little bit like the wild west to be fair, and, and when we get flooded, whereas in the US obviously, you know, it’s a little bit more cohesive. It’s a lot more, clinical and, and the efficacy has to be proved just as much as the safety. So yeah, we are hoping by the end of this year that we are going through the medical device regulatory process, which will mean that the market will be changing. And a lot of those technologies that I’ve ended up in Europe, ended up in doctor clinics, which didn’t have the necessary levels of clinical research. They won’t be able to sell ’em anymore unless they do so to prove the efficacy as well as the safety. So guys, that, that can’t come quick enough for us because, you know, as you know, we’ve got 20 US FDA market clearances, you know, and all of them are, are a level one gold standard clinical evidence. So I think it will filter away a lot of the technologies which aren’t that good or don’t have the clinical evidence to back themselves. A lot of the technologies that I’ve invested in proper research will be left, and that can only benefit the clinic and their patients.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. You know, anytime I think of Europe, in terms of what’s going on, this was probably, I think, at least it had to have been about 10 or 15 years ago. I remember a patient of mine asking me had I heard about, PRP. And I’m like, you know, and I think I had vaguely heard about it and I remember she was saying, yeah, apparently several of the NBA superstars are flying over to Europe to have these various European doctors do PRP, because it, it wasn’t necessarily that, that popular or that much of a standard here in the us. And so I always tend to think of Europe, kind of ahead of the curve in terms of a lot of these different things, and maybe it’s because of that exactly what you said, that wild, wild west, kind of a double-edged sword in that sense that maybe in some instances some of the things that are happening are a little bit sketchy. But also one of the benefits is that you get some of these cutting edge treatments like PRP that are maybe a little bit further ahead in terms of what they’re doing. Do you see that being the with Erchonia and with the lasers and, that, you know, kind of being a little bit ahead of the curve there.

Simon Ramshaw: Um, no, uh, I don’t, to be fair,, Chad, the reason for that is obviously because we’re in America, we’ve gotta be very conscious, right, of the market clearances. And if we, frequently in Europe, a lot of, technologies can promote, any successes there. On social media or anywhere based on maybe some of their doctor experiences or clinical experiences. But as you know, in the US you can’t promote something unless you’ve got that specific FDA clearance to promote it. So it was a lot of change when we first came on board because we were used to being able to share a lot of information on social media and other platforms based on our experiences. But then we became a little bit more complicated because we had to be conscious that we were heavily linked in with what we’d say is the mothership in Erchonia USA. And we didn’t want to hinder any of their, chances of getting further FDA clearances, you know, and, and we’re talking about a lot of the neurological conditions and, you know, and another thing that, and it can be frustrating because we, we can see off-label treatments that can be done with the full range of Erchonia lasers. Right. And we wanna shout it from the rooftops, but we can’t because we’ve got to be sensitive to Right. So to answer your question, a lot of technologies I think have thrived over here because they didn’t have to have, you’ve gotta remember, you know, Erchonia spend nearly a million dollars on every FDA cleared study. And a lot of technologies that come about, these companies don’t have that level of finance at their disposal. So in Europe, they’ve been able to get one step ahead by promoting their technologies without having to have the cost, the studies that were needed. Right. But on the other side of the coin, I think it made a lot of other technologies jump on the bandwagon and sort of say, well, you know, we only want to be in the market for a couple of years. We want to get in and get out. We’ll just shove a shed load of money into the market and give people, you know, the impression that this thing is the best thing since Sliced bread, employee food sales reps, to come across it in a specific way. And doctors are a lot more cautious now because of that approach. Clinics have ended up in situations where a lot of the technologies they buy don’t do what they set on the tin. You know, they’re not as effective and, it becomes a bit of a catch 22. You know, clinics, a lot of the accountants are advising clinics to finance their purchases so they may end up with a specific technology that they’ve committed to a five year finance plan, and within two months they know that it’s not as good as what they thought it would be. And then it becomes a double edged sword. We need to make the finance payments but we’re stuck. But on the other side of the coin, we want our reputation in our clinic to remain intact, right? And we don’t want, we don’t want our patients suffering from bad results. So they end up having to write off normally the money that they paid because their reputation over the longer term is more important to them.

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s one of the things that drew us to Erchonia initially,, is that they had, number one, they were a company that had been in business for a long time. But number two, the big thing was, is they were the ones financing and doing the research and, as a clinitian, I’ve seen all kinds of lasers and what I call laser-like equipment and technology, which most of it like clearly is being manufactured in China. No defense to China, but who knows who’s manufacturing it, who knows what it’s actually putting out in it. It looks like a red light. Is that a laser? Is it LED? Like, you know, you don’t know. And, what is reassuring too is that Erchonia has staked the reputation,, and, have done the hard work and paid the money to make this happen. And, you’re right, there’s two sides of that coin, right? It makes, when other parties jump on board, it makes the technology more known. It gets in more people’s hands, but you don’t know if it’s the authentic thing or not. And so, if I were gonna put a laser on my wife or my children or patients, I wanna know it’s actually the thing that it says it is. And that’s the one thing I think that gives a lot of doctors and a lot of patients reassurance. Yeah.In knowing that, it’s the real deal because I gotta imagine it’s probably pretty easy to fake, low level laser therapy with a red light or a, a violet light or an emerald light. Like I gotta imagine that that lends itself really well to being ripped it.

Simon Ramshaw: Yeah, it does. I mean, you know, it’s only a matter of time, you know, as, as you know, I specialize in market launches. So you try to give yourself potentially a five year window to do what you can with a specific technology, but then you achieve a certain level of success, you know, and again, like you said, no disrespect meant to the Chinese, but they have developed a bit of a reputation for, you know, waiting to see what comes to market and trying to copy it and bringing it out at a production of the price. You know, it’s not backed up by the necessary, safety information to show that it’s effective. And you know, with Erchonia, dozens of patents. So, you know, you can’t patent a wavelength of a laser, but you can patent how you deliver it. And, and through the, the length, coherent columned, monochromatic beams, you know, we’ve been able to patent that, which gives us a certain element. But then again, you know, I think with our Far East friends, sometimes that doesn’t matter and they know quite well that you know some companies don’t want to go through the whole core process and things like that. But, you know, Steven and the rest of the guys in Erchonia, you know, it’s very personal to them. As you know, from previous podcasts, they started the company because the father wasn’t well, and, and, Kevin was an engineer and they, you know , he, the dad found out that low level laser had very good healing properties and managed pain, and Kevin built up the laser. So I think because of their background, that’s one thing I really liked about them, cuz it, it, it, I think everybody loves a story. You know? And the story that I hated, I mean, you know, I, I said, I remember guys when I met Steve and, and Mark his brother in Liverpool in, in 2014, and I said, Steve, you’ve got some fantastic equipment. , you know, but a lot of the technologies in the market now are flooding the market with money to try to buy success. You know, have you thought about maybe going public with this, raising an IPO and, and developing, getting the funds that’s needed to get this fantastic technology and pretty much every clinic to give patients all around the world access to it? And, Steve came up with a very refreshing response and he said to me, Simon is family. If I went public, I’d be handing over the futures of my family and friends to somebody else who doesn’t even care about them. I want to keep in control of that and, and, you know, and, and provide a future for the people that are close to us. So the answer to your question, yes, I know we could likely become a lot more successful a lot quicker by doing it that way, but, you know, how, what price can you put on your principles and your morals? And, Steve’s one of my best friends to this day I’ve been across. Florida in May and Savannah, we went on a golfing trip up the coast and, you know, and, and they’ve got high moral turpitude and, and, and I think that means a lot in business. So whatever they say, it’s not a lie, it’s it’s truth. And you can tell with the emotion that it’s delivered. And, I got on board pretty quickly with a guy and I just felt their, their, their enthusiasm and their motivation and they wanna make a difference to people’s lives. Again, in Europe it can be very frustrating cuz we have, as you know, the national health. We have doctors that have reduced their surgeries by a high percentage since introducing low level lasers into their practice. You know, saved amputations, saved lives,, you know, and, and done a lot of good with it to my mind, and I’m very passionate about it, in the UK alone, it should be in every clinic, in every NHS practice, in every part of the country. But we’ve gotta jump through a lot of hoops to be able to get it into that and go through a lot of red tape, which defeats the object, the objects about patients. And I know it’s, it’s like a business. You’ve gotta be able to, you know, manage your money and it’s just a shame that sometimes bureaucracy and politics can get involved. You know, I think that’s what I was trying to say. That’s such, that’s such a heavy influence.

Dr. Andrew Wells: As you probably know here in the US, you know, it’s more, at least the general public is starting to become aware that our healthcare system is a massive for-profit machine. And it’s designed everywhere from the beginning of a, of a physician’s education all the way. How they do their exam process, how they do the diagnosis process, and then what treatments go with those diagnoses? And, it’s heavily, heavily, heavily, heavily skewed toward big pharma. And, the more, and the more the public becomes aware of this and conscious of it, the more, the more they start looking at other therapies that are often looked down upon and frowned upon because it’s not an evidence-based or science based approach. It’s what they claim. Right.

Simon Ramshaw: It is, it’s what they claim.

Dr. Andrew Wells: And, we’re starting, do you, do you see this? You sort of picked up on, on this, I think at the beginning of the podcast. Do you see this shift also happening in Europe? is it the same in the Middle East? Is it the same in Africa? Is there, is there such a, a fight against this, like over, over dominating industry of healthcare, that paradigm here in the US?

Simon Ramshaw: No, not as much to be honest, out in the Middle East, and we’re sort of in the embryonic stages,in Africa. Yeah. Europe tends to be where it is a lot more complex. And you know, a lot of that is to do with, you know, the fact there’s so many countries, there’s 28 official languages. So you know, where we’ve just provided, for example, an Erchonia laser into Italy and we have to have the whole operations manual, translated into Italian. Certain countries in Europe, don’t speak the best English. So if you go to the Southern Mediterranean, we have to speak English without the principle they won’t. And again, we are lucky guys. You know, we as Brits, as Americans, you know, the majority of the world’s second language is English, which makes it a lot easier for us. So Northern Europe, Scandinavia and Netherlands, for example. Certain parts, the Flemish part of Belgium, Germany, you know, I think it’s even as basic.You know, they learn good English, not just at school, but they see a lot of American and British movies, and they have subtitles on them, so they still hear the voices. Whereas in the Southern Mediterranean, they dub the voices over so that it, you know, the lip sync, if you remember the old Western, the Clint Eastwood, you know, the Good to Bad and the Yogi for a few dollars more. You, I found myself a type of character. I kept looking at their lips and I couldn’t stop noticing that they weren’t saying the words that they were. But that hindered their ability to speak English, you know, a little bit quicker. But yeah, I mean, you know, in the, in the national health in the UK for example, you know, I think if we had the type of process you guys have with the FDA, I don’t think we would have as many problems of getting into the national health because as I alluded to earlier, you guys aren’t flooded to the extent that we are. So the national health have to be extremely careful that they don’t take on a technology which doesn’t have the level of clinical backing. So I think this is why those processes are a lot more elongated. And you’ve gotta show extreme amounts of patients to get through it and, you know, fill out extreme amounts of paperwork because at the end of the day, they’re protecting the patient. So one hand I can see why, but on the other hand, when you’ve got such great technology and you’ve. The emotional side of the difference it can make to patients’ lives and potentially save the national health so much money, um, by not having to go through the surgical process. It, it’s frustrating at the same time, which you can probably detect in my voice as well.

Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, for me, the thing that I can’t help but think of in this conversation with you.I think sometimes, and I’m speaking for both Andrew and myself, so if I’m wrong here, Andrew, correct me. But sometimes I think our vision for the impact that we wanna make in terms of providers and patients can be somewhat, not consciously or not intentionally, but somewhat limited. Right. I tend to think of, you know, my state or the country, the US and here we have, Erchonia has, you know, Literally a worldwide presence here. And so that’s gotta feel really cool for you to feel like you’re at the forefront of this kind of worldwide expansion. You know, all through Europe, multiple different countries there, Africa and, and, and the question that I would have, it’s kind of a broad question for you, but maybe this can be a jumping off point for us to kind of go deeper. What are some of the exciting cool things that you’re seeing in terms of this growth in, in Europe, in Africa, in the Middle East? maybe some stories that you’ve heard from providers with patients. What are some of the kind of exciting things you’re seeing happening in terms of this worldwide growth?

Simon Ramshaw: Well, yeah, yeah, I mean, it does make us very proud.You know, I think, when I started dealing with the Erchonia US, I think. Maybe the competence in Europe has dwindled a little bit because there’s a reason why it’s a hard continent to be successful in, as I alluded to, right? Because of the amount of languages, right. And the different mentality. So, you know, I always used to go into a marketplace where I try to have around 70% of the infrastructure in the strategy the same, but have around 30% adaptable, specific to the mentalities and the culture of each. So if I go into Spain for example, with the same mentality as I would go into Sweden, I’d get thrown out and probably end up maimed because they got that, you know, they got that manana sort of attitude, which is, doesn’t mean to be rude by that, but you know, in the Southern Mediterranean, they run things at a slightly slower pace. That’s what they say. .

Dr. Chad Woolner: There’s exactly, there’s, there’s something, there’s something about the, the, the railroads or the, the schedule for the train In Italy, there’s some sort of cliche that’s there in terms of the train notoriously not being on time or something like that. I tend to hear.

Simon Ramshaw: Well, it’d not be on time, but the infrastructure’s not there. So predominantly it’s quicker to drive to actually get a train and, and especially with a lot of our Eastern European countries as well. You know, it was only really when the Iron Curtain came down in 1992 that they were able to actually change their infrastructure. So the interesting things when I visit some of the eastern European countries like Ukraine, which is in the rather unfortunate situation at the minute with with Russia, and where I was last week, Bucharest in Romania, is you can sort of like be higher in the city and look for one side and you see sort of the communist side, which looks a little bit run down.It needs a lot of it and then you can look to the other side and you can see what effect coming out of communism actually had on them by way of, you know, the freedom that they had and the creative license that they had. And it was sort of like one side, oh, the one size modern. So, you know, from that perspective, it’s very, humbling as well that we’re able to help a lot of these and give again, the patients the, their opportunity too. And, the clinics an opportunity to go down a different pathway. Yeah. So when it comes to the stories, I mean, guys that, you know, we could have the best technology in the world, which, you know, I know I’m biased, but I believe we do. But without the necessary levels of education and support, they’re never going to optimize how to get the most out of their investment.And this was the frustrating thing when we first came to Europe because their low level laser is very much a gray area.And the first chiropractic show, funnily enough, we went to, in the UK, I was on the stand with the rest of the team, and frequently we had a lot of your peers coming past and saying, no, no, we’ve got one of them. It’s okay. We’ve got one. And if we were lucky enough to get an opportunity to ask them what it was that they had, it was infrared or it was LED. I think a lot of them still think, and this is why we need to keep banging the German and educate you know, unbiased as well. We want to deliver a neutral education, so that they understand the different mechanisms of action and delivery mechanisms. So whichever one is the one that they want to go out and buy. They do it based on structural evidence rather than, you know, what they think, they know about it. We’ve come across situations where some of our researchers ended up on other, technologies, websites trying to give off the fact that the research is there. We’ve had some of our pictures with treating people on their website to try to give the impression that it’s Erchonia laser.So, yeah, it’s crazy. But, you know, we can obviously allude to a lot of the differences we’ve made with, we work at a cellular level as the advert said. We’re able to empower the human body to basically do what it should be doing, because most of us, I’m 51, nearly 52 now, do I recover as well from injury as I did when I was in my early twenties? Of course not. You know, the strains of life have had their toll on me. I went through a really deep mental health situation when my company went bankrupt and I got divorced and other things. And, you know, a lot of what life throws at us has an impact. No doubt. And one thing where we are making the difference from, we always just say the laser is just a transportation vehicle to get platonic energy into the body, to empower your body. You know, and once your body’s empowered, then it possesses the, the, you know, the skills to be able to heal itself from whatever, you know, the life control. Then whether can we cure COVID? Of course we can’t, but can we empower humans? So that it’s in a better position to respond to it. Yes. And we do that through mitochondrial action as you said before. And we’ve had instances with Erchonia in Sweden, where unfortunately a young lady was involved in a car accident and she lost the ability to walk and the ability to speak. And she started on the rehabilitation program. And by incorporating one of our lasers into the process, we were able to accelerate the whole process and give results that the doctors never thought they would see. And within three months, all of a sudden the patient was starting to mutter words. They were starting to you know, to have more movement, more freely. You know, I’m not saying it’s some sort of miracle, but you know, it was very humbling. And, and that was the first time it brought tears to my eyes because we were able to make a difference.You know, if you got the lasers and, and you weren’t provided with the support and the numerous webinars and seminars and educational forums that the Erchonia do, you wouldn’t have a clue how to really harness this technology in your clinic and optimize your patient’s results.So, you know, that was just one of many things. We had a doctor in Ireland. I think, was involved in a motorbike accident. And another one actually, he had, I think a garage door was pulled down on top of his leg and it, it created a, a fracture and, and, and, you know, a really what most people probably wouldn’t be able to look at without being sick. And, you know, he was worried that the lower limb would’ve to beated. You know, involved the laser in with the rehabilitation process and the healing process. And he still says to this day, he managed to save the patient’s leg by incorporating, you know, the laser in and that process. So, you know, all of these things I’m just repeating from the clinic’s perspective. It’s off-label. It’s not something that we can talk about generally, but it’s refreshing to hear some of our clinicians talk about. .

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s amazing. One of the things that Steve Shanks mentioned, I think maybe Chad, correct me if I’m wrong, I think it was Steve who said a laser can do anything that a pharmaceutical drug can do, but without all the side effects. And I think it was really, better, yeah, it can do better than what a pharmaceutical does without the side effects. And I think that that’s one of the really neat things about laser therapy when you’relooking at going into all these different countries and all these different cultures and all these different places. Correct me if I’m wrong, Simon, but laser technology, I gotta imagine is impressive to just about any person in any place. And there’s some, there’s some fundamental understanding of that the body can heal itself and we’re gonna use light as the catalyst to help improve that. There’s, I gotta imagine that crosses like almost all, all culture lines and country lines and, and understanding with that, just really simple light laser therapy, light therapy to help the body heal.

Simon Ramshaw: Yeah, I agree. But I also think, you know, there is a, there’s a lot of, again, as I said, gray areas with regard to the goal post and how far you can specifically get and, you know, Erchonia keeps applying and keep pushing the boundaries and everything that they specifically do. And I’ve gotta be careful, I suppose what I say, so I don’t insult too many people. But, you know, I think a lot of us as human beings, sometimes we can be open. And I know I try and my team try, every clinic we go to, we try to put ourselves in a position like we own that clinic. What would we do for our patients? How would we give our patients the best success rate? And we try to give our advice to the client, like, you know, we, we actually, you know, open the clinic, but there are a lot of people that think they know what non-thermal, low level laser but they don’t, they just look at it as a whole. They don’t really understand the effect it can have on a cellular level. And there’s some top doctors I know of in the industry that know that can’t possibly work. And when our guys look, you know, we owe it to our patients to be as open-minded as what, what we possibly can. And we are talking about evolution, we’re talking about pushing the boundaries. And as clinicians, we have to be open-minded as to what is out there and do our necessary due diligence and our research. What it is and whether it can improve the treatments we give to our patients. But unfortunately there still are people that are a little bit closed off. And I personally find it very hard to understand because guys, it’s about the patients, right? It’s about giving you patience for the best possible treatment that they can have and, you know, big times change and 20 years time will be talking about something different. You know, non-thermal, low level lasers has been around for such a long time, and I think some still look at it like it’s witchcraft. You know, I’ve been in a room where, you know, the range of motion has been zero because they’ve had inflammation on the nerve root, which has enabled disabled their range of motion. And you know, you do a 32nd treatment with the laser and all of a sudden they can reach a book of their head where they couldn’t go past their shoulder and see some of the expressions, like, guys, what have you done to mean? It’s like, it’s some sort of Harry Potter type stuff. , you know, uh, on one hand a lot of our distribution partners call the EVRL, the red and violet, like the magic wand. But it’s good to hear, but also it makes it sound mystical and Right. Somatic clinicians are very literal rather than the other way around. So, you know it. Yeah. I I think it’s, you know, we have our, but we, we are only gonna grow through education and, and, you know, telling a lot of clinicians and practitioners be open. You know, your patients deserve it. You want to provide them with the best possible. Whether you think the best possible is somebody else’s technology, no problem.But be open-minded as to the different mechanisms of action. Learn about these different delivery mechanisms and what works best and how it works and, and, and provide your patients with. Well guys, you know, I decided not to take this on, but I know.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I can’t help but think we keep circling around this, this concept that seems to be, to some extent, one way or another, the linchpin behind continued growth and ultimately helping more patients. And it, you just said it, it’s this idea of education and so I’m interested to hear what you’re seeing. I mean, obviously Erchonia is really doing a phenomenal job in terms of virtual opportunities for education. So whether a doctor is in England or in Africa, in Europe, so long as they have an internet connection, they can tune into a lot of the virtual training that Erchonia is providing. But in terms of in-person training, are you seeing growth and expansion? There are doctors responding well to education opportunities throughout Europe and Africa?

Simon Ramshaw: Chad. I think, I think as time’s moving on, it’s getting better and better. Again, I think because over here I, we discussed, we alluded to before, the amount of technologies that flood this market that aren’t effective.I think it makes a lot of doctors and practitioners very guarded. We’ve all got up before and we’ve spent X amount of, of thousand and it hasn’t delivered, which makes them very defensive. We obviously talk in a big way about the FDA studies, the quality of them, their gold standard, and some buy into that. You know, we’ve got Dr. Mun Asam in the UK who runs the Dr. MediSpa clinic in Knightsbridge, near herds, in Mali bone in London, and also in ethics. And, you know, he was blown away by the Erchonia’s research. He got the lasers in and he bought a second Erchonia laser two months later, you know, patients are coming in, they don’t just see here iImprovement in fat loss, which is what we are there to do. But the patients are feeling more, more energetic, they’re feeling healthier, they’re sleeping better.You know, the how that the lasers actually help with. So I think we’re pushing the boundaries in that respect by way of working in harmony with the human body rather than destruction. So there’s a lot of technology there, which causes it an area, and obviously we all know about this, creates the fibroblast activity and, you know get the body’s system to respond and to heal. But we don’t know sometimes what the long term effects of that can be. You know, we’re only seeing now a lot of technologies which destroy the fat cell and the research coming out that wants everyone’s fat cell that you destroy, 10 more regrowth in other parts of the body. You know, like the Linda Evangelistic of this world have been in the press, you know, being very vocal about it and affecting her confidence and, and, and things like that. So, you know, I think from our perspective, we will carry on growing, but we need to keep banging the drum with education.We are lucky, as you alluded to that, Erchonia got a great virtual, education site, the platform. We’ve had visits I’ve organized for Dr. Rob Silverman. He’s been across here several times to do lectures. Dr. Trevor Barry’s come across. We’ve had, you know, Dr. Kurt Ge done webinars for us as well. Rob Silverman’s coming over in September to participate in Swiss Chiropractic event in Logano, Trevor Barry’s coming across to participate in the European chiropractic lectures in Netherlands. So we need the support of our US guys because, you know, you guys have. You’ve been, you’re more experienced. You’ve been using the lasers for longer. You know, Dr. Eric Reese is also across, he’s got a clinic in Minnesota and you know, he’s proving he’s a modern demand by supporting his wife on a, a two year senior management place placement she’s got in the UK. So he’s moved across the pond, he even knows what football, proper football is now.

Dr. Andrew Wells: I, I, I was just gonna say, I was gonna give you a great marketing strategy and it’s no coincidence that Liverpool, which is the best football club in the world, also has the same color scheme as Erchonia. So next time Il watch a football match. I wanna see, cause I know you’re a mover and a shaker, Simon in Liverpool. So I wanna see you in the sidelines with the Erchonia laser and their red light treating, all the football athletes. That’s the quickest way to get to the hearts and minds of, uh, people in Europe.

Simon Ramshaw: Well, we’ve already started targeting the major sports clubs and, Manchester United are the arch enemy of Liverpool, and they also play in red. So I’ve said to, Vanessa, who’s my UK sales and operations manager. I said, put it in any club, but don’t put it in Manchester United no doubt. Don’t wanna improve their performance. We’re quite happy on a downward spiral at the minute, and we want that to continue that’s, but, but yeah guys, I mean, you know, we’d, we’d be, we’d be arrogant, we’d be naive if we didn’t feel as though we needed the, the experience and the knowledge of our US team and, and we need to develop our Rob Silverman’s, our own, Trevor Barry’s, and Eric Reeses, who are helping us deliver a lot of this education over this side of the pond. And, yeah, I think that will definitely help us and it’ll help us nurture our own doctors who have the necessary level of experience then educate. Vanessa’s been trying to target Liverpool and if they’re listening to this podcast, guys, if Moala gets injured for six months, we can get ’em back after three .

Dr. Andrew Wells: There you go. I love that. here you go. Yeah, you can’t say any more than that, can you?

Simon Ramshaw: But look, at the end of the day guys, I think COVID’s had a big effect on the whole world. And I definitely think it’s changed the mentality of doctors, probably not just in Europe, but in the Middle East, but also in the US as well. And I think patients now are looking at, technologies that can maybe have a health wellness SL on it as well as, you know, getting results. So clinics we are finding over here, guys are diversifying. They’re not just resting on the lot of what they do. They’re looking at what else we can add to the arm of our clinic and, provide for our patients to give them, you know, better efficacy.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. And, and I think to that end as, perhaps cliche, as it might sound, it’s true. I don’t think there has been a better time for a physician to start incorporating, or at the very least start looking into, low level laser technology as a potential addition to what they’re doing in their practices for those very reasons that you’re talking about, that people are really, truly this you know, one of the positive, effects or consequences of these past two years with COVID and everything is that really, truly people, many more people have opened their eyes to better, safer alternatives to most of the conventional approaches. And so that’s been a really, something that has happened as a result of it. So, and, and you’re right again at the forefront of that opportunity there. So it’s gotta be really, really exciting to see that taking place. So,, Simon, for, for docs in Europe who is the obesity pandemic, what’s that now?

Simon Ramshaw: Sorry. I was gonna say, of course, you know, we’re in the middle of an obesity pandemic, which was accentuated by the right COVID, you know, we’re the only technology in this market, which has a US FDA market clearance up to 40 BMI for overall Erchonia reduction. So we can, we can not only help the patients by way of how they look, but we can help them feel healthier and, you know, potentially look at things like the, the doctors can look at cholesterols and diabetes and, you know, in other aspects and, and, um, create a, a what we get better.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Absolutely, I was gonna say Simon, for, for docs who are listening to this, who are in Europe and, and they’d like to learn more and maybe connect with you and or the European or Middle Eastern or African, division of Erchonia, where would you recommend they connect with you?

Simon Ramshaw: Well, obviously, you know, we have a very close connection with our American colleagues, so anything that comes into the American office is handed over to us. But because Erchonia is a little bit differently because of the different mentalities. We have our own website, which is www.dconea.com. We have Erchonia laser.co.uk if they want to look more into fat loss. We have our own YouTube channel with a wide variety of, different educational PR related videos.Guys, you know, you, you, you’ve gotta be able to make money as well. So sure it runs hand in hand with creating a healing or a fat loss platform. We all aspire to, you know, that hammock somewhere on the Maldives, one day, Which, we can then enjoy the rest of our lives and watch endless amounts of football either side, golf, tennis, which wimbledon’s on at the minute as well. You know, we’ve got a, we’ve got a Brit in the semi-finals as well, guys, so , so yeah, reach out to us at any of those, platforms.

Dr. Chad Woolner: We’ll make sure we have links, obviously. Yeah, we’ll have links here in the notes, in the show notes for docs. Cuz definitely in, we’re starting to see a lot more movement in terms of, downloads for the podcast in other, other continents besides just the US So that’s, that’s always exciting for us to.

So,

Simon Ramshaw: I was just briefly on a holiday in Portugal with my other half recently, cuz it was her 40th birthday. And I sat around on the beach listening, then Steven Travis and then Trevor Barry could get,and you know, and Jerome Ruka and the rest of the guys. So, yeah, that is my bedtime reading at the minute.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, hopefully, other docs are doing the same. It’s been a lot of fun for us getting to chat with, all the ERIA folks, um, and all the various experts. It’s been, it’s been a, I feel kind of spoiled because I feel like, this is kind of a direct download to some of the brightest minds. Andrew and I kind of get to download all this wonderful information. And, so I feel like we’re getting like the fast track, so to speak, in terms of learning a lot of the science and, and know-how. Anything you want to add to this, Andrew?

Dr. Andrew Wells: No, I just want to thank, Simon for giving us his time and shine some light on what’s happening in the middle part of the world. And, I have no doubt this will help hopefully a lot of docs understand whether they’re in Africa or Europe, Middle East, what differences it can make for their patients, what difference this can make for their practice. And also just start reading and researching, listening, watching YouTube videos, and just getting educated on what this technology is and what it does and what an amazing opportunity that this presents a way to help, obviously help more people but differentiate what you’re doing in your clinic for your patients compared to what everyone else is doing, cuz this is absolutely where the puck is headed in terms of the future of healthcare. Whether you get on board now, or get on board 10 years from now, this is where healthcare is headed.So, it’s, it’s time. Docs know about what we’re doing here at Erchonia..

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, absolutely.

Simon Ramshaw: I agree completely. Before we go, I just say without the type of thing that you guys are doing and this sort of platform, we wouldn’t be able to get out to as many people and to educate them. So you guys are doing a great job. I look forward to seeing it. I think it’s entertaining as well as educational, which I think keeps people’s interest and, and that’s doubting you guys. So, thank you as well.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Thank you my friend. Appreciate it. And, my wife and I are making plans to hopefully head on over that way next year. So, if we’re in your neck of the woods, we’ll definitely have to connect, becauseI have not yet been to England nor any of Europe, and so I’m really looking forward to it. My brother and I. Oh, actually I should say my brothers, my nephew and my father are right now hiking the Camino de Santiago Trail in Spain. And so they’re doing that whole 500 mile trek there. So that’s cool to see all their pictures and stuff. So it’s, I’m kind of just a, just a wee bit jealous and hopefully we could do something like that.

Simon Ramshaw: God, we will be more than happy to lead you astray.

Dr. Chad Woolner: There we go . That’d be amazing. Absolutely. We will, we will take you up on that. So, again, Simon, it’s been a pleasure. We appreciate you and we appreciate all, all that you’re doing to really, truly help expand this. At the end of the day, it really truly is about benefiting patients and helping them and providing them better, safer alternatives. And so we appreciate you being kind of the tip of the spear in that of really starting to, to move this all throughout Europe and other countries and continents I should say. So, thanks again for taking time outta your schedule docs. We hope that this has been valuable for you and we will see you guys on the next episode. Have a good one.

[OUTRO]

Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchnoia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.

4 Reasons Why Low Level Laser Therapy Saves Practices Money

With the cost of healthcare rising, small practices in particular have to be more frugal than ever. That’s why it pays to know how profitable low-level laser treatments (LLLT) can be.

They can be big money-savers—not just for your practice, but for your patients as well. Now that more studies are showing the efficacy of Low Level Laser Treatments, there’s no better time to take advantage of this non-invasive, drug-free tissue repair technology.

Here are five reasons why this type of treatment saves practices money:

1. Insurance Companies Love It

In today’s healthcare environment, every penny counts. As a practice owner, you know that you need to do everything you can to keep your overhead low and keep your patients happy. The good news is that low-level laser laser therapy helps you do both.

Why Low Level Laser Therapy Saves Practices Money

Insurance companies are always looking for ways to make their clients happier. They want to see your patients happy, and they want you to be happy. With LLLT, you can show them that you’re helping your patients get better faster and saving them money. They’ll be more likely to approve reimbursement for the cost of your treatments.

2. Less Time Spent With Patients

Low-level laser therapy also helps reduce the amount of time it takes for patients to get better. With traditional therapies such as physical therapy or chiropractic care, patients often need several sessions per week over an extended period before they start feeling better. The process of LLLT is requires less time per patient. This efficiency is good for both the patient and the client, and in some cases, LLLT has the potential to be more effective. This may result in less sessions needed and a faster road to recovery.

3. Facility Upgrades Are Minimal

If you’re upgrading or growing your practice, it may require adding more space for office visits, therapy sessions, and waiting rooms. Success can sometimes lead to growing pains like the cost that comes with facility upgrades. Generally, low-level laser therapy can be performed easily in any office space with little or no modification required. It doesn’t require expensive equipment replacement or repair. Many doctors choose low-level laser therapy because of its affordability and ease of use.

4. Boosts Patient Satisfaction

Studies have shown that patients who received low-level laser therapy treatments were more likely to report less pain and stiffness, improved range of motion, and increased function than those who did not receive the treatment for symptoms such as chronic neck and shoulder pain and aid to liposuction and reduction of pain associated with surgery. This can lead to increased patient satisfaction, which can translate into more repeat business for your practice.

cold laser therapy device treating woman's neck

Bottom-line

With the cost of healthcare increasing and the number of health plans that cover expensive chiropractic treatments decreasing, the use of LLLT is becoming a viable option for patients and doctors. In this way, LLLT has truly becoming one of the safest, least expensive, and effective methods of pain relief.

For many patients, LLLT is the best option for managing pain without the use of opioids and long therapy sessions to see results. Both by keeping patients out of unnecessary appointments and by allowing you to spend more time focusing on the treatment plan at hand, it’s not hard to see why decision makers in clinics are turning to this technology.

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How Erchonia Low Level Laser Therapy Works

Podcast Episode #11: Lasers in Podiatry with Dr. Chris Bromley

We sit down with Dr. Chris Bromley to discuss how he has used lasers to significantly improve clinical outcomes for podiatric patients. We cover everything from neuropathy, onychomycosis, post-surgical protocols, and sports injuries.

Linkedin Dr. Christopher Kent Bromley
Delray Beach Podiatry
https://carepics.com/carepics-hires-dr-christopher-bromley-d-p-m-as-president/

Transcript:

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Wooler here with Dr. Andrew Wells, and today we have a special guest with us, Dr. Christopher Bramley. He is a podiatrist, and today we are gonna be talking about lasers in podiatry. So let’s get to it.

[INTRO]

Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, everybody, welcome to the show and a special welcome to Dr. Bromley. Welcome to the show, Dr. Bromley. Thank you Andrew and Chad for having me. I really appreciate the opportunity. So I wanna start the show off real quick by kind of putting you on the spot for just a second and letting you know I have a little bit of a bias towards podiatrists. My dad, who is a retired registered nurse from over 30 years ago, told me. He said, if you’re ever gonna have any doctor, Do any work whatsoever, ankle or foot below, he says, do not ever let any doctor look at that ankle or foot other than a podiatrist. He said, podiatrists are like artists. He’s what he said. He said, they are just like the most incredible miracle workers when it comes to anything related to feet. And I was like, you know, and, and I knew that, but it was just like, From coming from my father with such high praise, and he’s like, I’ve worked with all sorts of doctors. He said, I’ve worked with orthopods and I’ve worked with, you know, other, you know, various doctors. And then I, he said, and I’ve worked with, a lot of podiatrists as well. And he says there is a clear distinction, hands down. He says, no one, uh, can, can manage foot and ankle problems like a podiatrist can. And since then, . We have a very, very close family friend of ours down in Arizona who’s a podiatrist. We’ve visited him and he’s done some work for my wife with some toe issues she’s had. And my son, he’s my son, is really an avid athlete, particularly track. And so as you can imagine, he’s got all sorts of ingrown toenail issues that have been taken care of by this friend of ours who’s a podiatrist and my bias is a favorable bias towards pi podiatrists. We don’t often hear bias in a, in a positive light, but that’s my kind of background with podiatry I have. I just think podiatrists are the coolest when it comes to you know the echelon of doctors there at the top as far as in, in my book as far as I’m concerned. So, there you go.

Dr. Chris Bromley Great. I have the same love affair with chiropractic. So, my soulmate in life, my sister in life, my best friend forever, is a world renowned chiropractor by the name of Dr. Caroline Milia. And as I said earlier to Andrew, she converted me over from the dark side. When I graduated from medical school and I completed my residency at Johns Hopkins, when I went into practice, she said, okay, now I’m gonna tell you all the things you really need to know, and you need to forget. Everything you learned from Big Pharma, and let me show you how to integrate nutrition and, and a better understanding of biomechanics in reference to the entire body, gave me an understanding and, and a love and appreciation, for what chiropractic can do for me and my patients. And I always had a very. Good relationship between my chiropractic colleagues because I, you know, every one of them, I literally saw a patient this morning who was here for neuropathy and we were talking about her low back and the radiculopathy. And I said, well, who’s your chiropractor and what are they doing for you? And I literally wrote a prescription for her to go back, because, you know, you, you can take really good care of the lower extremity. You know, sort of, my practice is knee down here in Florida, but without the rest of the body being in tune, I’m just swimming up.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Right. That’s a great point.

Dr. Chris Bromley: It’s funny, it’s funny in healthcare how we end up getting so segmented into our specialties and, and sometimes it seems like, and oftentimes I think to the patient, it seems like these body parts are not interconnected. They live on their own little island on their own. And what a podiatrist does, has no. No effect on what a chiropractor would do, or, a cardiologist or a neurologist. Like, it’s like somehow our body is kind of, is this weird amalgamation of, of parts that all kind of do their own thing. But I think sometimes we forget that every body part affects the other one.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. I wanted to set the stage, uh, Dr. Brownley, can you give us a little bit of, uh, a background on who you are, what you’ve done? Because I think this is important and I know a little bit about your background. We just chatted before we started recording this podcast, and I want doctors to understand why, what you’ve done, because I can tell just behind your bio, you’re a very forward thinking podiatrist. And when we’re talking about laser therapy, I want other doctors and also especially other podiatrists, to understand what, what your experience has been, professional experience, where you are now in your career. Because I think that’s important in what we’re gonna talk about. So maybe let’s start there. How did, uh, tell us about your, what you’ve been doing over the last, couple decades in practice?

Dr. Chris Bromley: Yeah, so I, it’s, it actually starts, I mean, I grew up in the ski and sporting good business. My parents had a chain of very successful ski and sporting groups. I grew up in sports as an athlete, and I knew growing up in the retail business, I didn’t wanna be in the retail business. And I bonded myself to a podiatrist who became my mentor. I had foot injuries very similar to Chad’s son, and, and we became good friends and I, I really liked what he was doing in podiatry and, and he would let me scrub into surgery and he was doing biomechanics. He was taking care of infants and old folks. And I knew very young, probably 12 years old, that I wanted to be a physician. And I spent time in orthopedics in high school and, because they were miserable, they were unhappy. They were putting plates and screws, but that’s really all they had. They had their cortisone shot or that was it. They didn’t have anything else. And, and my, and my evolution of understanding nutrition and medicine and athletics sort of drew me into podiatry. And after completing my podiatry education in Cleveland, I went to Baltimore where I did a foot and ankle, surgical residency. I got to worked at Shock Trauma and Johns Hopkins and I went back to New York to practice, and as I said earlier, my best friend in the whole world who’s a world renowned chiropractor, said, let me, let me, you know, come and let me teach you. And, and so from the beginning of my practice in 1992, I started to change. I started to evolve as a practitioner and started to talk to my patients about nutrition and, and talk to them about, you know, what they are doing with the rest of their body. And it really, my practice sort of even in the early years where I was sort of resisting, you know, why are we writing antibiotics for things that don’t need antibiotics? And why are we writing for NSAIDs to suppress the body’s natural healing quality? And why are we giving cortisone shots and, and how can we avoid surgery? Although I love to do surgery, there are so many, so many things that you can do. About biomechanically driven. So that’s sort of the, the soul of my, of my practice is sort of always looking to be progressive, looking to incorporate nutrition, well, health and, and, and biomechanics and, and, The subject today about sort of cold laser or low level laser in podiatry was the genesis of that.I was seeing a college athlete with a nasty ankle sprain. You know, I, and I hate the word sprain cuz we use it all the time. It’s like the word concussion.You know, concussion is a traumatic brain injury. We just use the word concussion over and over. So we think it’s not a big deal. Sprain is the same way. It’s a torn ligament, one or more. So I was treating this young man. I got a call that afternoon from Dr. Meliz and she said, do you trust me? And I said, yeah. She goes, well, I’m gonna laser your patient and um, and I’m gonna send them back to you. I said, you’re gonna what? She goes, do you trust me? I said, yeah. She goes, laser the patient. So I forget about it. A week later I go in and, and I walk in the room and there’s the kid sitting there with all of the bandages and, and soft cast off. So I literally backed out of it. Looked at the number on the door. I figured I’m in the wrong room. . . So I, I looked and, and I went back in the room and I sat down and I, and I go, how are you doing? He goes, oh, doc, I’m doing great. My ankle moves. I wanna go back and play soccer. I go, whoa, whoa, whoa. Top of the brakes. I said a week ago, you have a torn ligament. This is what I go, no, no. I’ve been seeing Dr. Lisia. I saw her every day this week. She lasered my ankle. I’m feeling great. I want to get out. , so, well, let’s just, let me get you a brace and let me talk to Dria. So I called at the end of the day. I called her up. I said, what the hell did you do to my patient? She goes, she’s laughing at me. She goes, well, it’s easier for me to show you and you’re overdue for an adjustment. Come to my office on the way home. So I go there and she’s got one of these early RCIA lasers, right? It looks, you know, it’s about this big and it’s got this little thing and I’m laying on the thing and I’ve got some neck pain and she’s doing the laser and she’s doing some manipulation. And I said, well, tell me about this. And she goes, well, she starts to tell me the next day I called Steve Shanks from RC in Texas and I was on a plane a week later and I flew to their headquarters and I became a disciple of the technology. And back then, this is. Around maybe 2000, 2001. There, there wasn’t a great database of evidence-based medicine showing what lasers can do or can’t do. So, you know, you’re sort of starting it with blind faith and, you know, and, and incorporating the laser into your practice. And it was all part of that paradigm shift for me, which is to get away from medications and shots that are going to suppress the body’s ability and to, and to inc. photo bios simulation, which is what lasers do, right, and at a cellular basis, and how we could learn to incorporate the low level laser, what we call cold laser into the practice of medicine. And that was really how I got started. And it’s been a big part of my practice. And I love to teach and speak and, and, and bring and try to bring other podiatrists and other doctors over from the dark.

Dr. Andrew Wells: See, that’s the thing I think is an interesting point in this, is that you’re, you’re very much an outlier, meaning I, I know so many doctors who are so afraid to do anything different than what they were taught in school or what their colleagues are doing for lots of different reasons. Either they don’t wanna be perceived as weird or like the quack doctor who’s trying these things that aren’t especially 15 years ago when he didn’t have the clearances, FDA clearances and the research to support it. What, I guess, what would you say to B before you even ask that question?

Dr. Chad Woolner:I, I want to interject something there , to that, to your point, Andrew, I, I couldn’t help but think that that story could have gone completely a different way. You know, some doctors, if they hear. You know, their reaction could have been, what the heck do you think you’re doing? This is my patient. I’m gonna treat ’em the way, you know, this is not the way that, this is not the standard of care. And, and gotten offended and or had their ego hurt or bruised even after seeing what you saw. You know, we see that sometimes some doctors where it’s like literally right before them eyes wide open, they see what happened and they still deny it for, for whatever reason, insecurity, ego, this, that or the other. And so I just wanted to point that out, that that story says every bit as much, if not more about your character. Exactly. You being a forward thinking doctor. Exactly what Andrew’s saying as much as it does the power of, of, of the lasers and whatnot. So anyways, continue. Andrew, I just wanted to interject that point. . Great point.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. Yeah. I love that point. And I, I guess, um, Dr. Bromley, what would you tell your colleagues who, um, are maybe afraid to, to venture off what they would consider like the beaten path, either for fear of board reaction or colleague reaction or a patient reaction? What would you say to a doctor like that who’s just kind of doing the conventional pediatric or pod podia. I can’t ever get that right.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think it’s pediatric, right? Correct.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Pediatric. Pediatric, yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah. What, what would you say to someone like that, you know, this, this term has really been overused improperly the last two years, but follow the science.

Dr. Chris Bromley: Right. When I left, when I. You know, training in residency in 1992, we knew that at then that anti-inflammatories anset, which was sort of the gold standard, and it still is in some people’s practice. Somebody comes in with some sort of injury. What do you do? You were trained to write a prescription for an anset. And you gave that to the patient. Now, we knew back then that they were maybe not so good for your stomach. You could get a, you could get an upset stomach or an ulcer. We know now that they are really bad for you, that they suppress your body’s first phase of healing is the inflammation phase. So if you take an anti-inflammatory, You are actually suppressing the body’s natural ability to heal itself. In addition to that, we know that NSAIDs are really bad, not only for your GI tract, they’re really bad for your heart. You know that the increased risk of heart attack at stroke, I mean, they took Vioxx off the market way back when because people were dying. So the use of NSAID. It’s really, really fallen out of favor. And really you, there’s, I haven’t written for one. There’s no reason to write for one. You know, and the same thing has happened. What are the other tools that you had in, in podiatry for an injury? You had a cortisone shot. Well, cortisone is worse than an asset because it causes atrophy and it causes the body’s local ability to heal, to be suppressed. And if you’re, if. Really bad at it. And you put the injection into a, into a ligament, into a structure and you don’t know what you’re doing. You can cause it to rupture. You can cause it to make the injury worse. You know, the example would be somebody comes in with an Achilles pain and some well-meaning doctor injects cortisone into the Achilles center and it causes interruption. So these things still happen and I think the evolution of practice to my colleagues would be like, You know, watch, watch podcasts, listen to podcasts, listen to what, what’s happening, what is cutting edge, what is, what is happening around you? And incorporate that. We said earlier, and Andrew and I are talking, when I give a, I give a lot of lecture talks to podiatrists about, you know, regenerative medicine and, and, and cellular based products. And, and I say to them, look at the beginning of every lecture, every. You are going to see two providers before you. They saw Dr. Google and Dr. Webb, MD and they’ve read online thanks to the internet, what is the standard of care and what is new for their deformity before they, before they even see you. So if you’re a practitioner and you’re stuck, In what you learned in medical school or residency, and you’re still doing that. You are out, you’re obsolete, and, and the patients will not only not come back to you, they will go online and eviscerate you in reference to their reviews. So it behooves you as a physician, I don’t care what specialty, dentist, optometry, chiropractic, orthopedics, you have to, you have to modernize yourself and stay up to date with what is the most modern treatment for you. Obsolete.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. Patients nowadays, patients nowadays are, are in the history of the world. Ne have never been more well-read and or well-educated in terms of these things. And so, gone are the days where you can wing it, so to speak. You know, you have to, you have to know these things. You have to be up to date for sure. What were you gonna say, Dr. Wells? ,

Dr. Andrew Wells: Maybe Chad, you can reference the study, but, uh, there’s a study that says that it takes 17 years on average for new research to actually reach a certain field. And I think that number is incredible. 17 years. Yeah. Before, yeah. Yeah.

Dr. Chris Bromley: Something is studying. It actually reaches a doctor’s, reaches, reaches uh, um, clinical procedures inside an office. And that’s like. Two thirds of somebody’s career if you’re practicing for, you know, 30 years. I find that our industry, the healthcare industry, is oftentimes incredibly slow to pivot and to change. If you’re following the standard track, however, there are an incredible number of doctors and providers and physicians that are, like you said, read , have, have an open mind and, and actually look. Things that are researched and we will talk maybe a little bit about some of the research and clearances that RC has for what they’re doing. Um, not just anecdotal evidence for how things work, but actual research that’s there, it’s there if you want to, if you wanna, if you’re open to it, you look for it, you read it, it’s all over the place. And just follow those guidelines. And I just find that that’s, that’s kind of fascinating. It takes that much time on average for, for these therapies sometimes to reach, to reach people.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and, and I think this goes back to kind of what you had alluded to earlier, Andrew, is the fact.Far too often there is this like compartmentalization that takes place in terms of specialties and disciplines.And that can be for a number of different factors, ego, significance, whatever you wanna call it. Ignorance, all of the above, you know? And I think these things only contribute to that 17 year lag. That was a study. I was just pulling it up. It was done in England, is what, here’s where it was done. And it wasn’t, it was Let me see here. It wasn’t a study, it was a, it was a review that was done, Institute of Public Health, university of Cambridge. It said that the title of it says enough. It says the answer is 17 years. What is the question? Understanding time lags in translational research. And so the whole idea being that, again, you have all this great information, but how does it actually translate? And so you’ve got all these different factors. Unfortunately, it is all at play that, you know, like we said, that this compartmentalization or segmentation if you will, um, various bureaucratic reasons why as well, various special interest groups, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. But, The thing is it, it’s, it’s doctors like you who are kind of blazing those trails. You know, thankfully you’ve got other podiatrists who can basically take their lead from you, you know, in that sense. And, and not just podiatrists for that matter. I think doctors in general can look at that kind of mindset. That very forward thinking mindset. And I would say that it seems apparent that your motivation is for what’s best for the patient, is really at the end of the day, what’s driving that. And I think that’s something that can only be respected and admired and I, I’m always, maybe this sounds a little bit too kumbaya, but I, I really do believe it. When you focus on what’s best for the patient, all the other good stuff, the financial stuff and all that will work itself out. You know, I, I’m confident that your practice is not struggling financially, economically. You’re doing just fine and you’re also helping a lot of patients and getting probably great clinical results, is my guess, correct.

Dr.Andrew Wells: I 100% agree. I, I couldn’t agree with you more. My philosophy, and I learned this as a child, is to live, right. Things go right. Um, I, you know, too often I’m having conversations with physicians. Um, Particularly Apathetic. They worry. They’re like, well, in the very beginning they’re like, well, is it covered by insurance?

Dr. Chris Bromley: God no, no, thank God, and they go, what do you mean? I go, I go. It’s very simple. You explain the value, you give the patient a, you know, a, you know, a try on the laser, and you explain to them very simply, look, it’s gonna take six laser treatments for this to make a difference. At the end of six, we’ll reevaluate. If for any reason you’re not happy, I’m gonna give you six more on. . And if at the end of that you still don’t notice a difference and you are unhappy, I will give you your money back and patients a hundred percent of the time go, no problem. Let it. It is all in. You have to believe in your heart. Like you, you, I’m sure both of you as physicians, understand if you believe what you’re doing in your heart is the right thing and you can, you become very believable. You can engage with the patient. The patient understands. They understand you. They believe. They believe, and they trust you. If you are that. And you do that in incorporating this technology into your practice. It’s very easy. When I talk to patients all the time, they’ll give you an example. I have a patient here this morning who has been seen by five other podiatrists for six months for heel pain. At no time during those six month treatments did anybody ever ultrasound the patient to show him what his lenar fascia looked like. I was able to do that. Explain and show him his unaffected versus his affected side. Show him the difference and then say, look. You have three options. Ignoring it, hoping it’s gonna go away. Popular but not effective. Option two, we need to get the fascia to heal. That’s gonna require more blood flow, more collagen. And the way that we do that is we incorporate cellular based healing. We incorporate using a laser to get the heel to start to heal, to stimulate. The healing at a cellular basis, that photo bio simulation. And at the same time, I’m gonna get you into a better shoe, a nice orthotic, which is flexible. I’m going to, and, and, and, and I said, or we could, we could just do surgery, which I would not recommend because it’s an invasive procedure. It’s a new injury. It may or may not help, but it has risks associated. So which would you like to do? And a hundred percent of the time, basically I’ll go with option. and then we said, okay, let’s do the first laser today and then I’ll, you’re gonna come in three times this week and three times next week and we’ll re ultrasound and, and because we use technology like ultrasound in this type of injury, I can show them the injured area of the fascia, that hypoechoic area, that black hole or that tear.I can show them that they are starting to heal. I’m using objective data to show the response, not just that they’re feeling better, but I’m showing them the difference. And then they buy in and then they tell their friends that.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Dr. Bromley, amazing and you should go to him. It’s just, I don’t have to advertise because the patients, you know, they like that and they, and they want to and they want to come in and then they’ll send their children or their mother, and then it’s just a, when you do progressive medicine like this, it is, an amazing, adrenaline shot to your practice. Yeah. You know, I, I’m reminded of in school when we were learning about plantar fasciitis, I remember them talking about how that term is somewhat of a mis. In reality, it very quickly shifts from an IIS to an osis. And the problem there is, is that the standard management strategy is not only ineffective, but it’s counterproductive. Because if we’re talking about for, for those who are listening, if, because, cuz I’ve, I’ve found that a lot of non physicians have been listening to this podcast, which is really, really cool. IIS means inflammatory osis means, and, and please correct me, Dr. Bromley, if I’m speaking out of turn here in terms of this, because obviously you’re, you’re the plantar fasciitis expert more so than we are. But it shifts from being inflammatory to then all of a sudden neurotic or degenerative. And so,you bring in, my guess is that cortisone injections are somewhat of a standard of care for plantar fasciitis or, or fascist, which imagine exactly what you just said there about, about the rupture issue. Knowing that cortisone deteriorates the tissue. And so, yeah, it, it, the, the management of this, or at least your strategy, makes all the difference when you understand kind of histologically what’s actually happening to that tissue. It’s, it’s not, it’s no longer an inflammatory issue or insights for that matter, right. The very two kinds of standards that you’re talking about don’t make any sort of sense when you understand phys, you know, pathophysiologically, what’s actually happening to that tissue. And so maybe that’s a, maybe that’s a good jumping off point in terms of, cuz I’m, I’m assuming that, that, like you said, lasers are kind of standard go-to for you in terms of plantar fasciitis or fascist cases. Maybe for those, listen explain the rationale why you would use a laser for somebody who’s struggling with heel pain, p plantar fasciitis, fascist.

Dr. Chris Bromley: Take your. . Well, I, to your point, Chad, I think that I, and one of the lectures I give is, there’s no such thing as pan fasciitis. You just don’t have an ultrasound and don’t know there’s a tear. Right. So when I, when I talk to an orthopedist and I talk to a podiatrist, I, I implore them. I, you know, because I have a big, you know, sports practice and we’re looking at musculoskeletal injuries, the time I have a, I have an ultrasound in. So short of taking an x-ray for a fracture of bony pathology, which we do, the ultrasound is really the best tool in my toolbox. And then you can accurately assess, and to your point, the plantar fascia doesn’t get an I. It doesn’t, it’s not like, it’s not like a tendon, it’s not like a muscle. It doesn’t get this sort of, you can see inflammation, but it’s actually a breakdown within the structure of the planet fascia. The planet fascia really. In the body, one of the, one of the, one of the pieces of our body that’s under the most stress, you know, every heel strike, every toe off the plantar fascia is part of that windlass mechanism. Back to the gastroc soleus backed all the way back to the hamstrings, back to the hip, and the low back. So that, that kinetic chain, the weak link between the very powerful. And the, and the leg muscles. The weak link is the planter fashion, and it does tear, uh, at insertion. It can tear and, and ult approximately optic calcan and what we do in our practice is, number one, make an accurate diagnosis is that, you know, you have to rule out things. So they have, you know, some other problem that could be sort of disguised as, as heel pain may not always be a plantar fe injury, may be, um, a tarsal tunnel and may be a pinched nerve, or it may be a stress fracture, it may be a tumor, could be a cyst, could be lots of things. So accurate diagnosis is super important. We see healing pain in kids, which we know is not Plano fascia. It’s a phos. And we, look at our practice at this,, we tell the patient what’s wrong, and they say, look, again, same speech, ignoring it, hoping it’s gonna go away. Here are the conservative things. Here are the surgical things you can do. Let’s start conservative. And what we wanna do is incorporate the discussion about what their body needs, you know, taking care of the underlying cause. How did you get here? Well, you walk around your house here in Delray Beach, barefoot, and you’ve got tile floors and, and you don’t stretch and you have crappy shoe gear. So you’ve gotta assess, mechanically, what’s going on with the patient. And then what we wanna do, every patient wants the pain to go away. . So how do I do that? Well, I do that by incorporating lasers into their protocol. I, we, we bring the laser in, we bring the FX 35 in. We start, you know, we give them a handout, it explains, we come back in and then we start to do what we do so well. And our specialty is to address biomechanics. I might be using some kinesio tape. We’ll get them an impression or a scan for an orthotic and give them a rec, send them to the shoe store, you know, get ’em in a nice Hoka. , you know, get ’em nice bionics or something to wear around the house so they’re not re keep injuring it. And then we see them back after their fifth or sixth laser, which is typically what we do three times a week, like Monday, Wednesday, Friday. And then we see them back and, and invariably the patients will say, you know, my pain was a 10 out of 10. On day one, it’s now, uh, five out of 10 or three out of 10, it’s gonna take time, and then you reevaluate them and you can show them the healing. And lasers really can be used for anything that you want to do in your podiatry practice or in your chiropractic practice where you’re trying to give patients what they need. They need relief from the pain they need. get the body to heal itself, which is all about vascular flow and collagen. And we’re gonna use the laser to stimulate the body. The term we use is photobiostimulation. We’re on a cellular basis. Every, every cell in your body has mitochondria. Mitochondria produces a t p. That is the fuel. So we wanna use this cellular based healing, and we can set the laser in a, in such a way, depending on what we’re treating. So the setting for pain. And to increase blood flow for a plant of fascia is different than a setting that would be for arthritic pain. Maybe somebody has, great toe uh, limitation with what we call, how it rgis or osteoarthritis. So that bone pain is a different setting than we would be setting in the laser for a soft tissue injury and would be different than the patient who comes in and says, you know, I’ve been diabetic for, for 10 years and my blood sugars are here. My A1C is. Uh, and I have this neuropathy. in the, in, in podiatry and in medicine. What do doctors do? They prescribe drugs that are, are bandaids that are there to make the patient forget that they have this neuropathy and they, and the drugs they’re prescribing amitriptyline, um, you know, all these different drugs have no benefits at all. They don’t fix the neuropathy. The neuropathy you have in your feet is because you’ve had elevated blood sugar that causes the smallest blood vessels you have to die off. And then the nerves that provide sensation, not. So we use the laser technology to increase the neuro transmission to increase the blood flow in these, in the lower extremity. At the same time, we say, by the way, your blood sugar can’t be 300, your A1C can’t be 10. You need to get that under control with a proper diet. And oh, by the way, I’m going to prescribe a number of supplements for you, you know, b6, , and b12, as well as other supplements to nourish your nervous system back to health. But again, The, when you listen to any of, if you read or watch any of the commercials for Cymbalta, Lyrica, all this stuff that’s on the, the, at the very end when the lawyer does their speak, they talk about, you know, it could result in suicide, death, depression. You don’t want any of those drugs. But other than that, it’s great. Yeah. It’s, you know, you know, you gotta, you gotta think outside the box and, and side effects from medications are real. There’s never been a side effect I’ve ever had from a low level laser other than the patient getting better very quickly. It’s really, it’s really that sort of work across my, the lasers that we have in this practice here in Florida, it has its own. It’s like having another associate in your office. It has its own schedule. You know, patients are coming in, they’re, you’re, they’re seeing the laser and then they see us for follow up. It’s really been a blessing, you know, to me to have that tool in my toolbox.

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s amazing. On, on that note, maybe, and maybe we should have started here. What, maybe can you just list off what types of conditions you’re using this laser for? What types of patients you’re. I’m looking at your laser now. I’m picturing it as having a face and an associate name and maybe, maybe, uh, lighten docs. Like, what are you actually using this for?

Dr. Chris Bromley: I used to say, you can use it for everything in your practice other than fungal toenails.Now, I can’t say that because, but almost three years ago now, Corne got the Lunula laser approved. Phonic myosis, which I love. It works amazing. Uh, I use it for everything. So, the typical podiatry patient will come. Then, you know, we’re using it for all of the M S K complaints. So patients come in with, you know, plantar fascial pain. You know, they’ve got, you know, ligament injuries, sprains, strains, fractures, all of my surgery patients, patients that we couldn’t heal conservatively, they come in for cold laser every week as part of their healing protocol, and we see much less pain. We, we, we’ve eliminated the use of narcotics. After surgery, which I’ve been doing for probably 10 years, using laser and, and combinations of long acting locales, I haven’t prescribed a narcotic after surgery in 10 years. There’s no reason to.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Wow.

Dr. Chris Bromley: So we’ve been helping fight the opioid crisis that way, and I’ve been teaching other doctors how to do that. Uh, we use it for neuropathy, so our diabetic patients who have, uh, burning neuropathy that are very painful, keeping them up at night. There’s some compounding that we prescribe for them for creams, but we also use the laser to restructure the way their nervous system’s working patients who have loss of sensation, again, the loss of sensation is due to the death of the C fibers. So using the, the B sticks, nine, E 12 in the conjunction laser gets those c fibers to regrowth much faster. Pretty much the only thing that we don’t use co laser for is sort of maybe somebody has a tine, like an athlete’s foot, or maybe they have a wart. I haven’t found that. Warts. Those are really the two things like, you know, superficial, um, Uh, fungal infections and warts. So the only thing I really haven’t, been able to figure out how to use a, a laser for, but again, uh, if I did a laser, uh, maybe if I did an excision of a, of a, a work where we surgically removed it, I would use the laser. After that, very successfully, to help increase the healing, to decrease this scar tissue. I love using lasers. In my pediatric practice. I have a large pediatric practice. We see a lot of young athletes who come in with injuries. Again, we’re treating them for their biomechanical stuff, but we’re also using lasers and, and the kids, the kids feel very cool. And one of the PowerPoints I give, there’s a wonderful picture of my daughter, who’s now almost 18, who was an avid lacrosse player, and she’s sitting in my, with her glasses, through protective glasses on lasers. Her heel, for her for a pitis is I’m fixing dinner. So she’s one of the pictures in my slide present. I said, are you smarter than, I think she was, I think she was eight or nine at the time. I’m like, are you smarter than an eight year old?

Dr. Andrew Wells: I love it. That’s something, something I wanna cue doctors into. Um, that, that you mentioned, I think is worth kind of connecting some dots on. One of the things we have a program, Dr.Wells and I, we have a program teaching doctors, uh, how to help patients with chronic health issues. And one of the terms that we use to help our doctors kind of wrap their heads around the ideal standard of what we want them to think of themselves and what they’re doing. As you know, some doctors will think of themselves as chiropractors or podiatrists. Medical doctors or osteopaths, some will think of themselves as healthcare professionals. Some will think of themselves as like coaches or whatever the term that we use that we always repeat for them is we want them to think of themselves first and foremost as solutions curators, that they’re curating solutions for people. And the thing that was really cool about what you were talking about is you’re describing how you’re using these lasers, you’re not simply having patients come in and be like, okay, press the button. That’s that. That’s done. But rather what you’re doing is you’re fitting these lasers into a comprehensive solution.

Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, you talked about that example of the, uh, was it the Delray Beach, uh, pl uh, barefoot Walker on the tile, you know, the, uh, whoever that patient is that, but it wasn’t just laser and then that’s it. Even though the laser is incredibly powerful, I think. That doctors need to clue into a far greater strategy. And I think anyone and everyone, Erchonia would say the same thing is what you want to do is you want to create a total solution for them. And so you talked about nutrition, you talked about orthotics, you talked about doing a biomechanical assessment and addressing what that, and that solution might include other providers potentially, you know, obviously mechanically above the knee, hip, and pelvis. My guess is you’re probably sending a lot of these folks over. To your friend who’s the chiropractor, to, to address those issues as well, to some extent, right? But the, but the point is this, is that at the end of the day, again, it goes back to what is going to be best for the patient. And when you curate a total solution, what that’s going to do for the patient is that’s going to surprise, surprise, or not surprise, solve the problem, right? And when you solve problems for people, Better, obviously clinical results, obviously problem solved, but then as a result of that too, those people are more than likely going to then be referred to as a natural outgrowth. I’m guessing, I could be wrong, but I’m guessing a substantial amount of your practice is driven by referrals.

Dr. Chris Bromley: Correct. A hundred percent. You know, people have lots of choices and, you know, people look at online reviews. Um, you know, I remember one when I, when my, my youngest son was 10. I remember one day I came home and I said to myself, You know, you’re, you’re recommended by all the breastfeeding moms on Facebook as the podiatrist. Everybody should say . Oh my God, I didn’t know that was a thing. She goes, oh no. I was on the, I was on the breastfeeding mom Facebook thing today, and everybody’s saying, who should you see as a foot doctor? And they, all the moms, are recommending you. That’s amazing. Oh, that’s a good thing. So, right. You know, the internet is a wonderful thing. And I, and I think. You know, this podcast is a perfect example of how you are leveraging technology and doing this podcasting, using this medium to advance. You know, the, your mission, which is to elevate the level of care for everybody. And I think that that’s why they share that common mission. You know, I believe that continuing medical education should be something you’re doing every day. You know, you should be listening to things and reading things and, and learning from, from our, from our colleagues in all specialties. I tell podiatrists all the time, I do quite a bit of lecturing and different disciplines, and I say, you should go to conferences. Don’t just go to a podiatry meeting, go to a chiropractic meeting, go to a vascular meeting, go to a dermatologic, or go to a wound care meeting. Learn from your colleagues. I learned about pedal access, which is the restoration of blood flow into the foot. Almost 10 years ago I was lecturing at a Chicago vascular conference, about wound care. And I was just sitting there listening to whatever the cutting edge vascular treatment was, and I didn’t know that didn’t exist in my location, New York and I, and that just helped me learn, and I think that. You know, our goal, I’m, I’m sure the three of us share that. Our goal is to, we want to be able to bring the very best care to our patients, but also to our colleagues, so that they can, they can raise their level of care.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Absolutely. Well said. Yeah, that’s exactly right. , Dr. Bramley. If there are podiatrists listening to this podcast and like, wow, I’d love to follow Dr. Bramley and what he’s doing and, and, and maybe, um, use you as kind of a lighthouse for information. Are there any ways that they can follow you? Are there any events that you do in terms of speaking events and lectures, that they can, they can, be a part of?

Dr. Chris Bromley: Sure. Well, the number one, the number one way that they could listen to me talk about these types of topics is there’s a company called present podiatry, which is the largest meeting company, um, in podiatry. They have a really great resource. I go to a lot of their lectures. Full disclosure, I own no stock in the company.I do, I do chair meetings for them, but you can, podiatrists can go and, and be, become a member of that particular database. And they can see, you know, 20, 30, 40 lectures that I’ve done. Uh, and to be able to see those, uh, meetings where we, where we go and do cutting edge stuff. We, you know, the problem with podiatry education is, um, the meetings that we’ve done in the past used to be the same guy given the same lecture year after year, after year. And it was really boring. So when I go to meetings, I want to talk. Something that’s cutting edge. How do we incorporate the use of low level laser Veronica Mycosis, or how do we incorporate it? You know, what, what’s going on, for nutrition? What’s going on? How do we, how do we advance the practice? I gave a lecture thanks to Dr. Melissa years ago about the standard process. And talking about whole food nutrition and, and things like that. So the podiatrist can make, there are YouTube videos available, but present really has the largest database of stuff that I’ve, that I’ve taught, or, and then we do one hour. And, and as, as well as full day learning events all the time. So that’s always available and, and I would encourage anybody who listens to this, you can find me, by googling me. Feel free to call me, email me, text me. You know, it gives me no greater pleasure than to help my colleagues.

Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s apparent that you’re very passionate about not only helping patients, but helping other doctors as well. And that’s, you can’t help, but number one, respect that. But also it’s, it’s, your energy is very contagious, and so it’s exciting to see your passion and excitement for this. Uh, it’s been a ton of fun chatting with you about this. So, um, any final thoughts in closing for doctors, lasers, words of wisdom insights you’ve learned over the years.

Dr. Chris Bromley: I think that, uh, my words of wisdom would be that if you incorporate this type of technology and a regenerative approach to healing into your practice, it’s gonna bring new energy and new life to your practice, which is going to make you as a practitioner more energized. So by, by stepping outside your comfort zone, by incorporating, you know, wellness and that concept of being a curator of, of the solutions being that person is going to be, bring more reward to you and your practice. So think outside the box. Take a step maybe in, in a direction you didn’t think you were gonna do, and, and let us help you incorporate this into your practice, which you’ll, you’ll bring you years of, of reward.

Dr. Chad Woolner: You I would simply, I think that’s a great place to close and I appreciate that. That really was incredible words of wisdom there because, Um, I think a lot of doctors for various reasons, um, find themselves, myself included, to some degree, getting caught up in the motions of the day-to-day minutia. And sometimes we can just get in these, in these kinds of ruts or these patterns and to a certain degree, sometimes that kind of zest or passion or excitement in practice can kind of diminish like the volume knob gets turned down a little bit there and so I think that’s incredible. And again, very insightful, very wise to kind of think about it through that lens of, you know, trying to focus on the cutting edge, whatever that is, to really get the very best results. And in turn, cuz we’ve seen that, honestly, we haven’t had the lasers in our practice terribly long, but in the short period of time that we’ve incorporated them, We have definitely seen an elevation in our excitement and our passion with the patients. Uh, it’s just, it’s very contagious in that sense. And so it’s been really, really exciting. I think that’s spot on what you just shared there. So, any final thoughts, Andrew you wanted to bring up?

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, I just wanna say, Dr.Remley, thanks so much for being a guest on the podcast. I, I’ve found this, um, really entertaining and you, you, bring, uh, a lot of, like Chad mentioned, a lot of really good energy to this topic and I hope, um, docs listening to this will be inspired and hopefully. Well, because you learn more, read more, follow you, and maybe get not only more information to help more people, but also like Chad mentioned too, just more excitement about being in practice and doing what we do and helping, helping other people get healthy.

Dr. Chris Bromley: Yeah. Again, thank you for having me. I, and I’ll come back anytime you want to talk about anything please feel free to reach out.

Dr. Chad Woolner: We definitely will. For sure. So, docs, thanks for listening. I hope you guys have enjoyed it as much as we have.It’s been awesome getting to sit down for a minute and chat with Dr. Bromley. If you wanna learn more about him, what we’ll do and what and what he’s doing, we’ll make sure to put links in the show notes to him and thanks for listening to Docs. We’ll talk to you guys on the next show.

[OUTRO]

Thanks for listening to the Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about RCIA Lasers, just head on over to rcia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources, including research, news, and links to upcoming live events, as well as ER’s e community, where you can access for free additional resources, including advanced training and business tools.

Again, thanks for listening. We will catch you on the next episode.

The Best Ways to Treat Chronic Back Pain Without Surgery

Roughly 80% of people will experience back pain at some point in their life according to the National Institutes of Health. While many will undergo surgery to treat their chronic back pain, there is no guarantee that surgery will resolve your symptoms.

In fact, these surgeries can sometimes make your pain worse. Overall, there are many reasons to consider non-surgical treatments to manage chronic back pain. Read on to learn more about non-invasive treatment options for chronic back pain.

Common Causes of Chronic Back Pain

Chronic pain is defined as pain that lasts for 3 months or more. Chronic back pain is usually a result of growing older. However, it can also be the result of overuse or an injury. Specific causes of chronic back pain are typically one of the following:

common types of back pain

Arthritis of the spine — the gradual thinning of the cartilage inside the spine
Spinal stenosis — narrowing of the spinal canal that may lead to nerve pain
Disc problems, such as a herniated or bulging disc
Myofascial pain syndrome — unexplained muscle pain and tenderness

Much of our pain and tenderness is also caused by inflammation or swelling. Inflammation is our body’s response to injury or infection and can be recognized by redness, heat, swelling, and tenderness around injury or infection. This protective collection of fluid brings increased blood flow and white blood cells. In addition to the natural compression it provides, this increased blood will aid in the healing process. However, this inflammation can be painful and severely limit motion. This can be a problem if the body overreacts to injury, which can be often.

Non-invasive Treatment for Chronic Back Pain

Lifestyle Changes

Most back pain issues stem from a minor injury or chronic stress on the muscles, both from everyday activities. Therefore, the easiest way to treat it is to make lifestyle adjustments. One-time injuries can be hard to foresee, but avoiding situations where the muscles in your back experience chronic stress can prevent most pain.

Correcting posture and wearing supportive footwear over something like heels or thin-soled sandals can do wonders for maintaining the alignment of your legs, hips, and back. This in turn will help keep your back muscles operating as intended and in the healthiest way possible.

Additionally, increased activity and changes in diet can help fight inflammation associated with chronic back pain. The idea of exercise while you’re in pain may seem inadvisable, but engaging in light to moderate activity can help increase blood flow, release pain-relieving endorphins, and restore range of motion.

Foods high in trans fat, refined sugars, and processed food can be highly inflammatory and should be avoided. To eat an anti-inflammatory diet, we recommend prioritizing foods such as:

Brightly-colored fruits and vegetables, such as sweet potatoes, oranges, strawberries, and tomatoes
Fatty fish, such as salmon, sardines, and mackerel
Green, leafy vegetables, including spinach, kale, collards, and broccoli
Healthy, monounsaturated fats, such as avocado, olive oil, and canola oil
Nuts, including almonds and walnuts
Seeds, such as chia, sunflower, and pumpkin

However, it’s important to note that severe chronic back pain may not be fully managed by these lifestyle changes. Depending on the cause and severity of your pain, you may need to employ additional treatment measures in tandem to these changes in lifestyle in order to treat chronic back pain without surgery.

Physical Therapy

Physical therapy is commonly used after injury, but it can also help in alleviating pain caused by daily tasks. During physical therapy, you will work with a specialized physical therapist to improve your strength and flexibility through easy stretches and exercises. These simple activities can help you retrain your posture and fortify the area specific to your injury. The goal of physical therapy is to not only heal from the current injury, but also prevent injury in the future.

Laser Therapy

Another non-surgical treatment option to consider is laser therapy for chronic back pain. How laser therapy machines work is by emitting photons or particles of light carrying electromagnetic radiation, which are then absorbed by your cells. These photons provide your cells with a boost of energy, allowing them to optimize their performance and aid in healing.

low level laser therapy for chronic back pain

In addition to giving your cells an energy boost, low-light laser therapy improves circulation and speeds up tissue healing. Only cells and tissues that are normally dormant absorb the light energy emitted by a low-light laser therapy device, and it does not affect healthy cells. We recommend talking to a laser therapy provider to see if low-light laser therapy is right for you and your chronic back pain.

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Prescriptive Aids

Some chronic back pain can be appropriately managed by daily medicine or regular injections. Anti-inflammatory drugs, muscle relaxants and other medications can be useful for treating chronic back pain. Injections can include nerve blocks, epidural steroids, and sacroiliac joint injections among others.

Massage Therapy

If your chronic back pain is the result of an injured or strained muscle, massage therapy may be the treatment option for you. Regular massages can help increase blood flow and stretch muscles into releasing tension. Since it’s also a popular method for stress relief, you may find it aids in easing your chronic pain by managing your stress.

Chiropractor

While you might think of the chiropractor as someone who makes your bones crack, these health and wellness professionals actually focus on re-aligning your body. This alignment involves using the hands to adjust, massage, or stimulate the spine or other body parts. The popping noise often heard after adjustment is the gas escaping from between your joints after pressure is released.

Acupuncture

Lastly, acupuncture is an alternative treatment for back pain. Acupuncture is a traditional Chinese medicine. It involves inserting very thin needles at strategic points across your body. The thought is that these needles – most of which you would not feel – will help balance the flow of energy known as chi. Western medicine agrees the points where needles are inserted help stimulate nerves, muscles, and connective tissue. This would act as a natural painkiller.

The majority of the population has or will experience back pain at some point in their lives. When pain occurs, there are a multitude of non-surgical treatment options to choose from. We recommend talking with a medical professional about your chronic pain symptoms to determine which treatment option is best for you.

Related Reading: How Does Laser Therapy Work for Pain?

How to Reduce the Need to Prescribe Opioids for Back Pain

Opioids are a family of medications commonly prescribed to treat back pain. Unfortunately, over the past few decades, a rise in opioid prescriptions has led to a rise in misuse, addiction, and overdoses. As a result, physicians have been tasked with weighing the possible benefits of opioid use against its risks. What is required is effective non-opioid alternatives that have an acceptable low-risk profile, like Low-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT), to treat musculoskeletal pain.

Apart from the LLLT and opiate pain medications, other therapies include steroid injections, non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs, and surgery. However, patients should be aware of the specific risks associated with each approach. This article teaches how to reduce opioids prescriptions for back pain by using LLLT and other alternatives.

What are Opioids and How Do They Work

Also known as narcotics, opioids are medications prescribed by physicians to treat severe or chronic pain. They are commonly used by patients experiencing acute postoperative pain, people with chronic back aches or headaches, and those having severe pain due to cancer. Doctors can recommend opioids to children and adults who have suffered severe injuries after a fall, car accident, and other incidents.

opioids

How do these medications work? Opioids attach to opioid receptors in the brain, gut, spinal cord, and other body parts and block pain messages sent via the spinal cord to the brain. While they relieve pain, increased use of opioids can have serious risks and lead to addiction.

In most cases, opioids are taken in pill form, but they can also be taken as lollipops or lozenges. Doctors may also administer them through IV, injection, or a patch placed on the patient’s skin. Because of their side effects, opioids should be used only under a doctor’s supervision.

Different Types of Opioids and Potential Side Effects

There are many types of opioids that doctors prescribe. They come in different names, including:

Morphine
Codeine
Fentanyl
Hydrocodone
Oxycodone
Oxymorphone

They are sold under different brand names like Percocet, Palladone, OxyContin, and Vicodin. Sleepiness, nausea, and constipation are commonly reported opioid side effects. However, there are other life-threatening side effects of an opioid overdose that should be reported to a physician as soon as possible. They include:

Slowed heart rate
Loss of consciousness
Shallow breathing

Addiction can also occur after prolonged use of opioids and patients may find themselves taking more drugs to relieve the pain.

Low-Level Laser Therapy as an Alternative to Prescribing Opioids for Back Pain

The majority of people have experienced back pain at some point in their lives and some of them end up developing chronic back pain. In search of a cost-effective and safe treatment that can reduce opioid prescription for back pain, LLLT was developed and is being used by various specialties worldwide.

low back pain laser treatment

What is LLLT?

Also known as Low-Level Laser Therapy or Photobiomodulation, Low-Level Laser Therapy is a low-intensity light therapy that causes biochemical changes within body cells. It is a non-invasive low-light treatment with no sound, heat, or vibration.

LLLT is likened to the photosynthesis process in plants, where cellular photoreceptors absorb photons and trigger chemical changes. Many physiotherapists use LLLT to treat lower back pain. Different wavelength lasers (varying from 632 to 904 nm) are used to treat musculoskeletal pain. These wavelengths can penetrate soft or hard tissue and skin to treat inflammation, pain, and tissue repair.

laser therapy treatment for neck pain

Potential LLLT Benefits

Low-Level Laser Therapy is one of the best options that can provide pain reduction or relief, especially for patients seeking treatment that does not require surgery or medication. Since the therapy is a non-invasive procedure, it doesn’t require prolonged recovery. LLLT addresses several orthopedic conditions and promotes faster healing. Also, there are no severe side effects associated with LLLT when used appropriately by a doctor.

While LLLT is a non-invasive procedure and promotes faster healing, patients may take a series of treatments to get total relief. The number of treatments can range from 8 to 30, depending on the duration and severity of the pain.

Other Alternative Treatments for Back Pain

Apart from LLLT, other alternatives to opioid use for back pain relief are available. Non-opioid drugs that are available by prescription or over the counter include acetaminophen (Tylenol), aspirin (Bayer), ibuprofen (Motrin), and steroids. Patients who want to avoid the side effects of opioids may prefer using these drugs.

Also, a doctor may recommend other non-drug therapies that can be effective alone or in combination with pain relief drugs. These therapies include:

Physical therapy

A physician or a physical therapist specializing in rehabilitation and physical medicine may recommend an exercise program to help decrease back pain and improve your overall health. Deep muscle massage, whirlpools, and ultrasound may help relieve pain too. Motor control exercise helps restore, control, coordinate, and strengthen muscles supporting and controlling the spine.

back pain treatment

Acupuncture

Patients have reported finding pain relief in acupuncture, where thin needles are inserted at different spots in the skin to interrupt pain signals. The therapy is well-tolerated with less serious side effects.

Surgery

Surgery may be the next option for severe back pain that persists for six to twelve weeks of other nonsurgical treatments. In rare cases, an immediate surgery procedure is performed for low back pain.

A doctor may recommend a decompression surgical procedure to alleviate back pain due to pinched nerves. Surgery may be performed if the patient is unable or has limited ability to function normally in everyday life.

Injections

Back pain injections help treat inflammation and spinal stenosis. Also, physicians use injections to treat other back pain types. They may use nerve block injections, discography, or epidural injections.

In pain management, clinicians may recommend the use of opioids. While the safest possible treatment is to stop opioid prescription for back pain, abrupt cessation of opioid medication can also have adverse effects on the patient. Patient safety should be the top consideration in treatment procedures, and doctors should focus on other alternatives to an opioid prescription for back pain.

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How Erchonia Low Level Laser Therapy Works

Visible vs. Infrared Lasers

There is so much misinformation about the science of low-level lasers and how manufacturers have manipulated the science to gain a sales advantage – it is hard to separate fact from fiction. One example is; that longer wavelengths penetrate deeper. However, this “marketing claim” is backed by no clinical research and goes against the established physics of light. Published literature demonstrates that depending on the laser wavelength either a photochemical or photophysical reaction will occur.

Photochemical

The first law of Photochemistry states, that the energy in the photon (electron volt or EV) has to be absorbed by the cell to create a photochemical effect in the body. Photochemical reactions in tissue only occurs with visible light, this is well known and has been published in many papers and scientific journals. Visible light (400nm – 660nm) has sufficient energy to displace electrons in atoms to a higher energy state, without causing ionization. Once the energy inside the cell is absorbed the cell then uses what energy it needs then passes the excess energy to the next cell. The more energy (ev) the photon has the more energy it has the pass on to the next cell, then the next to create a stronger photochemical effect. For this reason, high energy photons from visible light are capable of creating greater systemic effects than longer wavelengths, since the initial electron charge is higher the more transfer of elections is possible

The easiest way to understand how photochemistry works would be to look at biochemistry or how drugs work. If you are taking 200mg of a drug like an NSAID you swallow the pill, it enters your stomach and after your stomach starts to break down the drug it starts a biochemical response that reduces inflammation. There is a therapeutic dose that is most optimal, by increasing the dose all you are doing is increasing milligrams and the side effects. Biochemical responses are not natural, unlike laser light which is natural and with visible light there are no known side effects. Each wavelength of visible light (red, blue, green) will produce a distinct photochemical effect, through similar, if not the same biological pathways of pharmaceutical drugs. Published research from The University of Chicago Illinois (UCSD) and other Universities using the Erchonia laser, that depending on the condition there is a peak wavelength absorption for simulating the desired biological pathways such as reducing apoptosis, necrosis, TNF-a, mitochondria production, stem cells, nerve regeneration, immune function, etc.

Infrared Lasers (Photophysical Effects)

Infrared Light (IR) is not energetic enough to initiate photochemical processes, instead, the result of infrared absorption is heat formation due to a increase in molecular vibrational activity, this is referred to photophysical effect. For direct photochemistry to occur, it is reported the (eV) must be 1.7eV, equal to 730nm. In fact, since the photon energy is so low in the IR wavelengths, the light is strongly absorbed by water molecules leading to superficial heating of the skin (Georgia State University), which is contrary to the propaganda that manufacturers state that these wavelengths penetrate deeper than visible light.

The longer the wavelength 730nm-12,000nm the less energy (ev) in the photon. By increasing the laser power all you are doing is shooting out less energetic (ev) photons. Again, the shorter the wavelength the more energy the photon, when you get below 380nm there is so much energy in the photon that the body does not absorb the energy and the photons bounce off the bone which is how x-rays work. These lower wavelengths are so energetic they are referred to as ionizing radiation and due to the high energy photons, they can cause cancer.

Infrared lasers are absorbed by the water in the upper layers of the tissue, the water starts vibrating and slowly starts a warming reaction by the cells vibrating in humans and plants. By increasing the power of the laser all you are doing is heating the tissue faster. Tissue ablation works by increasing power in microseconds to the point where you are killing the upper layers of the dermis (apoptosis) for skin rejuvenation. Increasing power does not increase how far the laser penetrates unless you are measuring how deep the heating of the tissue will reach.

Contact our Erchonia team if you would like more information on low level laser therapy.

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How Erchonia Low Level Laser Therapy Works

Podcast Episode #10: Low Level Lasers and the Future of Brain Health with Dr. Trevor Berry

On today’s episode we somewhat pickup where we left off last with Dr. Berry and dive into the subject of low level lasers and brain health. As a functional neurologist, Dr. Berry provides some amazing insights as to applications and implications with using lasers for a wide range of brain and body conditions for patients. You definitely want to check this episode out! To find out more about Dr. Trevor Berry go to: https://azchironeuro.com/

Or to attend one of his upcoming Erchonia seminars you can go to:

https://www.erchonia.com/seminars/

Transcript:

Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, everybody. Welcome back to The Laser Light Show. This is episode number 10. And we have again with us back by popular demand. Dr. Berry. He is going to be talking with us about lasers and the future of brain health. So let’s get right to it.

Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.

Okay, welcome to the show again, Dr. Berry. We’re super excited to have you here and excited to explore this next topic, we’re, you know, we started to kind of delve into the brain area, but we kind of had to kind of put the brakes on it just a little bit because we wanted to stay somewhat within that realm of back pain. But obviously, you can’t really talk chronic back pain or even acute back pain for that matter without getting into the brain, obviously. But now you have full rein to just go nuts and go crazy and talk all things brains. So with that being said, huge thanks again for taking time out of your schedule to be here with us. We’re super excited to dive into this topic with you.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Great to be here again. Really enjoyed the first episode and yeah, as you guys saw in that last episode, I’m chomping at the bit here. I’m like the horse that won the Kentucky Derby. Let me fly or let’s let’s do this. Yeah, this is definitely, you know, right in my wheelhouse as far as what I get, you know, the most exciting and it’s not, you know, obviously, there’s a big crossover, like studies show chronic pain and neurodegeneration are, they’re together. So that’s why we got to, we have to have modalities to be able to address not just the peripheral pain symptoms, but all the effects on the central nervous system.

And the worse your brain is, the worse your pain is. So yeah, you know, even when you’re if you’re doing pain management only, you want to do things to address the brain to help promote resolution of the pain syndromes. So that’s a big topic of conversation. But my big thing with the laser stuff with brains is, there’s a saying in the industry, you buy a laser for your own brain and your own loved ones, your own family members, so that you can treat your brain and protect your brains and central nervous system and anything else you want to deal with, and the patients just get to be the benefactors of that investment. And so it’s like, it’s one of those things where you want to invest like, what price you put on your own brain. As we said in my first episode, you know, I did, I’m doing this for my daughters, you know, protect, I’ve got two daughters. My ex, you know, has a severe neurodegenerative predilection, I was trying to find ways to protect those two. So it’s kind of one of those things where what price do I put on their brain. Knowing what these lasers do, you can pay a million dollars, and it’d be a good value, because of, you know, how effective they are in protecting the brain and even repairing the brain. So we’ll navigate some of those really cool waters with brain based rehab throughout the course of this episode.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I was gonna say when we…first off, you know, when we talk to doctors, Dr. Wells and I, we do some training with doctors, and one of the most common themes that we keep running back to is we keep teaching dogs to think upstream. And it doesn’t get any more upstream than the brain. And when we talk about the brain, in general, for the sake of simplicity, for today’s episode, and if you want to dive into other realms, by all means this is your playground here. But I would say the two big topics that I think of when we talk about brain health is is like neurodegenerative, like you said, and then like, you know, acute injuries with like young athletes like concussion and mild traumatic or even just outright traumatic brain injuries, you know. And so in those types of two categories, I’m assuming you’ve seen both of those types of cases come into your clinic. Maybe speak to kind of both of those lanes and everything in between for that matter, as well.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, and what’s neat about that is that there’s actually a crossover between neurodegeneration and acute TBI or traumatic brain injury stuff. Because one of the big mechanisms that causes our brains to go south, whether it’s drinking a Diet Coke, whether it’s having a cell phone next to your head, whether it’s having a stroke, whether it’s getting punched in the head or get in tackled in football, it has to do with a process, one of the the underpinnings of it is called glutamate excitotoxicity.

So you have these receptors on your neurons in your brain that glutamate is the excitatory neurotransmitter. Now, we need that to activate the system. But you don’t want to have too much of that activity going on. And because of too much happens, you allow too much calcium into the neuron. And if too much calcium comes rushing into the neuron, two primary things happen. Either the cell goes poof, called apoptosis, the cell basically explodes for over simplified term, and that has a spreading effect. It starts to wipe out adjacent neurons. While studies showed, if you pretreated your brain with laser, you can actually mitigate that spreading effect. So you’ll have better outcomes in a TBI or stroke or things like that. But also, another thing that can happen is if too much calcium comes rushing, you can start to kick off these free radicals, the superoxide anions, peroxy nitrite formation, it causes free radical damage to the cell, mitochondrial DNA damage, cellular DNA damage, things like that. So that is very much an energy dependent thing to protect against that. So one of the benefits of lasers, amongst many things is that it will actually promote energy production of the mitochondria and even promote mitochondrial biogenesis. So that powerhouse of the cell, if you laser any tissue in your body, including your brain, it actually promotes a new mitochondrial formation within that cell.

So whether it’s a muscle rehab, cardiac tissue, brain tissue, things like that, another big one is the kick, when you start having cell damage, it can kick off faulty proteins, when you hear about these terms, like how hyperphosphorylation and neurofibrillary tangles, that’s just a fancy way of saying the proteins that are the building blocks for let’s say, the microtubules and all the organelles inside your neurons, they get misfolded and that cell basically shrivel up and die. So cell neuron A can’t talk to neuron B. So laser studies have actually shown is that you can not only actually protect against neurofibrillary tangles, there is actually evidence of reversal of it. That is such a profound statement that you can actually untangle that protein missiles, they help the neurons keep communicating properly to each other. And one of my favorite topics is this is that what do you guys think would be the holy grail of protecting the brain? What might what might be one example of something that would be if you could do anything to the brain? What comes to mind when I ask that question?

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think BDNF helping with, you know, brain derived neurotrophic factor.

Dr. Trevor Berry: All right. Talk about hitting the nail on the head. The holy grail of brain activity is not just BDNF, which is where you get the new synaptic activity, dendritic sprouting and pruning so that those neurons not only they connect to each other, they have more connections, so it’s more efficient, things like that. Lasers to the brain promote BDNF output. And it gets one better than that is that actually promotes neurogenesis. So not just new connections, but actually lasers to the brain actually promote new neuronal formation. Because remember, for the longest time, we used to think you had somewhere between 86 billion and 100 billion neurons to work with. And that was that there was, yes, neurons will go through mitosis. But what the newer research shows is that things like laser to the brain will actually promote neurogenesis along with BDNF. And it only takes one joule, or 0.8 joules per centimeter squared to the tissue to do it. So another reason I love Erchonia is that stays again in that low level hormetic dose of staying below 13 joules per centimeter square to the brain. So just getting the laser on the brain has the potential to make new neuronal activation and neuronal pathways. So that’s what talking about a holy grail that by itself should be worth the investment for the doctors to put into their brain.

Dr. Andrew Wells: So we started off talking about neurodegenerative conditions and things like TBI is, but what, correct me if I’m wrong? Are you saying that lasering the brain can actually have a performance benefit as well?

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yes. And that’s the big thing that we get is like, we get these CEOs of companies and stuff flying to see us because it’s not just about, you know, damaged tissue. Yeah, we that’s a obviously a very underserved and needed area of neurological rehabilitation. But we’re working with Olympic athletes, that they’re not showing Alzheimer’s or post concussion, they’re trying to shave that, you know, tenths of a second or a 100th of a second off the reaction times and things like that. Lasers to the brain have been shown to create optimization of brain activity. And muscle performance. I referenced a study in my seminar that there was even it was, it was in PubMed, say we should potentially ban low level lasers because of the performance enhancements that it creates for Olympic level athletes. So, you know, obviously that’s not going to come to fruition but that, you know, just the idea of banning it because it’s not like a you know, a banned substance performance. It just talks about how it optimizes physiology of muscle and neurological activity. So yes, in short, it helps with cognitive thought, executive function, things like that. So it’s not just about taking patients from a symptomatic state to improving it, it’s taking whatever high level you’re acting it and being even higher than that. So yes, optimization is big.

Dr. Andrew Wells: I want to clear something off the table first, because I know, I imagine you get this question from patients, is it safe to laser brains?

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, that’s probably the most important question, because what study after study has shown and I can show you dozens and dozens of studies saying that the there’s a sweet spot to brain tissue exposure, and that’s between 0.3 joules and 13 joules per centimeter square. Now, I know that’s absolutely you know, Greek to most of the people listening.

What it means is that, yes, it’s safe to laser as long as you’re below that hormetic dose. So then, then, that’s why I attach my cart to Erchonia’s horse, because when I’m going to laser my kid’s brain, I wanted to make sure I had a true Laser, because that’s the key too. Because you’re going to hear us talk about LED and stuff. We use LED in our studies as the sham. It’s the placebo control. So yes, they’re the LED is talked about, but it’s inexpensive. LED’s just scattered photons. It’s like shining a light bulb near somebody’s head, and hoping to get enough energy exposure, you know. True Laser, all that energy, all those molecules are in a parallel, coherent, monochromatic wave form, all working in the same direction, so that’s what makes lasers more expensive. And one of the things I love about Erchonia is they don’t just stop there, they do FDA clearance studies. As you guys mentioned in your intro, they had 20 of the 23-24 FDA clearances. They have more than all of the laser companies combined. So you want to you want to be right in that sweet spot of 0.3 to about, you know, even 0.3 to 0.5 joules is ideal for the brain. Well Erchonia has that its its intrinsic to its dose, like the power output of the end, the fact that they have the red and violet lasers that we focus on for brain based applications.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, and what I’d just like to add, so just for those listening that have higher power, like class 3b, class 4 lasers, I’m not here to disparage anyone or anything like that. But I’d just be very cautious. Those devices only have FDA clearance as a medical heat lamp. That’s what they have their 510 clearances, substantial equivalence of a heat lamp, it’s not a photochemical effect, those kinds of things. So we’re not trying to cook or heat the brain tissue, we’re trying to get proper photochemical activity. So you got to be very careful about cancer about Janus molecule, ionos expression, about valence electrons, about glutamate excitotoxicity, like all these bad things that can happen in the brain, you cannot put too much power into it. So don’t think well, some some lasers good, more must be better. That’s the biggest myth and low level laser therapy and high versus high powered laser.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So I want to talk about as you’re talking about this, originally, you’re talking about the untangling of the proteins, right. I recall a talk that was given by Dr. Rhonda Patrick, I’m not sure if you’re familiar with her work, but she talks a lot about heat and cold exposure and just hormesis. And one of the things that she talked about that I remembered was that with sauna exposure, and not necessarily infrared, we’ll just say sauna because it wasn’t the infrared itself, it was the heat itself that causes the body to produce heat shock proteins, which have that same effect. Curious if you have seen anything combining lasers with heat? Not heated lasers, but lasers, plus some type of heat exposure or cold exposure, anything like that.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah. So you can definitely stack your therapies like that. Like say you’re in like maybe one of those near infrared sauna that maybe comes off the neck and you’re doing laser at the same time. So like we talked about in the last episode, anytime you stack your modalities and therapies, I’m all for it. And so basically, and what Rhonda was talking about is that when you stress the system, and this kind of a crass way of putting it, but it really drives the point home, says, “You’re dumb you just jumped in a freezing cold lake for no apparent reason. We need to make you smarter, so you never do that again.” So that will promote neuroplasticity immediately.

Like, same thing with high intensity interval training or endurance training like, “You dummy. You just ran 26.2 miles for no apparent reason. All you got was a little medal and a badge that says you completed the marathon, I’m going to make you smarter. So you never do that.” Fasting is the exact same thing. So you put the stressors on the cell. And that will make it, if it’s not overwhelming the system, it will make your system become more effective and to adapt to that environment. So that you can find that piece of food because you haven’t eaten in three days. You can go hunt down that carrot and it’s kind of your brains going to be smarter to do that.

There are some other physiological things like when you go into cold water for example, you’ll promote a rebound ENOs (endothelial nitric oxide) to help vasodilation which will help blood flow to the brain, which is a really core concept of brain health. You can’t have high blood pressure, low blood pressure. You guys know. You do your functional medicine cannot be anemic and have a healthy brain. It’s the first lab marker I look at. Making sure they’re not iron deficient or megaloblastic, or anything like that. Lasers will promote blood flow to the brain. Lasers that will promote mitochondrial health, but lasers will help overcome microvascular disease, ischemia patterns. I hate to see this on MRI reports to say, well, that’s a normal variant for their age. There’s no such thing as normal variant of microvascular disease of the brain. That’s because so many people are diabetic in this country and things like that, it appears to be like normal, because everyone has it. So those are some core concepts of getting in helping that BDNF output and making your system more more efficient. So yes, I liked that therapy.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s one of the most common conversations that I have to have with people is this conflation of common being normal. Right? It you know, I explained to people, like, you know, we look at X-rays all the time. And we’ll see like, you know, dramatic changes to people’s cervical neck, let’s just say, you know, a massive hypo, hypo lordosis. And people like that’s a normal finding. No, no common does not mean normal. Common means it’s an epidemic. That’s all it means. You know, like you said, diabetes and obesity. I mean, we just had this conversation on a previous episode about obesity, they’re trying to normalize that term now, because it hurts people’s feelings. You know that people don’t like being labeled obese, because it makes them feel bad. And so what we’re going to do is we’re going to change the definition we’re not going to use, in fact, I’ve seen this Facebook ad for some company where they’re saying, we’re on a mission to eliminate that word obese from the conversation, and I’m like, you can eliminate the word all you want, it’s not gonna eliminate the disease, it’s not gonna eliminate the impact on the body. And no doubt obesity’s impact on the brain, you know, in terms of that, so.

Dr. Trevor Berry: So yeah, to your point, there’s a direct correlation to obesity and neurodegenerative changes like dementia. So I get it, I’m sensitive to the psychology of human behavior and whatnot. But sometimes we’re doing humankind a disservice. When we, you know, change the label or how it’s said, or, you know, what the arbitrary numbers aren’t allowed, like cholesterol is a good example. They just basically for all intents and purposes arbitrarily tried to lower it. And it’s, you know, LDL C lowering doesn’t say why. You know, “we got to get into oxidized.” It’s antiquated, that thought process. I could talk for an hour about cholesterol, we need cholesterol for the brain, people, we need LDL for the brain. But anyway, yeah, you bring up a good point that, you know, it is something that you know, and again, not to be insensitive to any of the listeners. But it is something that we want to make sure that we’re doing the best for humankind, and sometimes the labels and stuff. It’s a, it’s a bad precedent to set to go down.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So I have a question here, and I’m sure Andrew’s got plenty questions, too, but I’m going to jump on your toes for a minute. Sometimes he and I are scrambling with each other in terms of who gets the first question. You know, when we think of brain health protocols, I think most people conventionally will think of, like, especially we talk like pop health culture, you know, some of the first things that pop up are omega 3s. You know, if you’re going to gingko biloba, and stuff like that. Maybe if they’ve scratched a little bit past the surface, they’ll look at various diet strategies, you know, increasing healthy fats, maybe intermittent fasting on some level, even then I don’t even think a lot of people are talking about that, necessarily. But how do we begin shifting the conversation, not away from those things, but in conjunction to those things. A lot of the things you’re talking about here, specifically laser therapy, because I think for a lot of people, again, to Andrew’s original question, is laser therapy safe? The fact that we have to ask that question in the first place tells us boy, we got a lot of work in front of us ahead of us in terms of this becoming more mainstream and standardized, you know, what are your thoughts on that in terms of this conversation shifting? From it exclusively being diet, nutrition, and exercise and all that stuff, but adding this modality into the conversation as being just, from what you’re saying this needs to become like, truly mainstream, like every clinic needs to be doing this and using this.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, exactly. Let’s just talk about like some real low hanging fruit that would tie this in. One good example of the standard American diet is very proinflammatory, you know, our sugar access, our food sensitivities that we’re developing, to the a leaky gut, our additives that we’re putting in, like, our diet is horrible in this country. And you know, so what the way I look at lasers, it’s like the great equalizer. Because, you know, you may have speakers on like Dan Murphy, for example. Phenomenal. He’s one of my mentors. He eats as clean as anyone I know. And so he avoids lectins, he avoids weed, he avoids alcohol, you know. Pretty much, I don’t want to live that way. I eat more bacon than anyone I know. So I’m going to be a good experiment because I’m lasering my brain every day and I’m gonna try and undo, you know, some of my lifestyle choices that aren’t perfect. Because nobody’s perfect.

Everyone’s gonna have a goal and once I do that I’m realistic with my patients. Yes, we do promote to your point, like a modified paleo, I often called the Mother Nature diet. Like when Mother Nature put on this planet for us to eat. If she put it on here for us, let’s eat it. She didn’t put genetically engineered foods, she didn’t put monosodium glutamate and aspartame. She didn’t put it in all these fields. So what she did give us, grass fed grass finished, you know, beef and wild caught fish. And yeah, we want starchy plant based vegetables to be our primary, we want nuts and seeds, lots of good fats. So kind of have modified paleo. I’ll still rotate sometimes ketosis when it’s indicated. I love to your point intermittent fasting, but not everyone should be doing intermittent fasting.

Like if you’re late stage neurodegeneration, I’m not going to drive a stage five Alzheimer’s into fasting. I’m not going to drive a severely reactive hypoglycemic. So, you know, so there’s, there’s, there’s not a one size fits all for diet. But, you know, we definitely want to make sure that our food sources are good natural ones, but those of us that are, you know, we can’t live that lifestyle continuously. It’s going to be well, what can we do to make up for, say, the systemic and brain based inflammation? Well, that’s where things like laser come in, because it will help repair the damage. It will help calm down the inflammation. And that’s a big thing that even segues back into the acute phase TBI that you guys brought up. One of the big things with acute phase TBI is that prevents it from becoming post concussion syndrome is taking the brain inflammation and getting it dialed back down.

Well, that M-1 M-2 glial resolution. So yeah, these fancy terms are saying your micro glial cells are inflamed. And they need that initially, but we got to turn that inflammation off. And acute phase TBI is a good example of that. And in chronic post concussion syndrome, one of your best ways to do that is laser the brain. Well, it works the same if I’ve had a bunch of sugar and things like that, when my brain is inflamed, which by the way, when you look at studies, you don’t know we have genetic markers that make us more likely to get things like Alzheimer’s, like APOE4 and things like that. Just because you have a gene snip for something doesn’t mean it has to express.

Well, the researchers shows a number one epigenetic trip wire that’s going to push your brain off that cliff is inflammation of the brain. So if another reason if not for the nerve growth factors and the biogenesis get brain inflammation out of there by doing laser stimulation directly to the brain and the vagal nerve stuff that we can talk about. Those are kind of things that will help down regulate the inflammation. Another big one: free radical damage, you know, so we have oxidative stress. We have you know, we’re under a lot of pollutants and other stressors that you know, free radicals, even exercises, there’s that exercise paradox too much exercise cause a lot of free radical damage. Well, your lasers will actually promote glutathione production and recycling, your lasers will promote catalase, superoxide, dismutase. All your antioxidant system, just like eat a bunch of good blueberries and raspberries and stuff. Lasers promote all your antioxidants and stuff. Lasers promotes stem cell proliferation and localization. Anyone that’s like hardcore into neuroregeneration or regenerative medicine in general, all the stem cell craze that’s going on or even peptides, lasers promote new stem cell activity to the target tissue. Or if you do stem cells, make sure you get lasers on the brain assets as if it’s like a beacon of light drawing the stem cells to whatever target tissue there is. And there’s even evidence that it will help promote differentiation of your target tissue. So say you’re doing cartilage regeneration, if you laser the knee after, it’ll promote the stem cells to the knee and promote cartilage conversate activity of that tissue. Same thing with the brain. So there’s such a diverse array of applications with lasering in your brain, that come in handy to check off all the major boxes on all those physiological levels that unique.

Dr. Andrew Wells: So maybe, that’s amazing by the way. Maybe Dr. Berry, you can talk about the physiology. What’s actually happening when you’re shining light into the brain? Because I want doctors to clue into this too, all we’re using it here as light. That’s what we’re talking about. I think sometimes it sounds like too simple. And then when we hear you speaking it sounds very complex, but maybe you can help docs understand what’s actually happening when you’re when you’re doing this.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, so the basic core principle that was taught like, we have to remember that we are energy and light driven beings like without sunlight, we don’t exist as a species. So you know, it’s kind of think of it that like that energy model and when I teach a lot of times, if I’m doing my you know, the elevator pitch, if you will, it’s like we’re just like plants with photosynthesis. So that’s, that’s a concept that we’re all taught in school. Plants need that energy and they like and absorb it for all their, you know, their energy production and all the, you know, the cell might total everything that goes on for plants to thrive.

We’re no different. The older methods that were taught was that the rate limiting enzyme or the mitochondria, like your energy powerhouse of the cell, is actually a chromophore. It’s called cytochrome c-oxidase or CTO. And what that is, is the cytochrome system is it likes and absorbs certain wavelengths. And that kind of primes the pump to crank up the mitochondria though, but, but newer research is showing, we’re even moving beyond that. So now we’re getting into some of the realm of, you know, and this is going to get way too technical, but you want to think of almost like, you know, when they’re looking at the God particle, the Higgs Boson particle and what they’re finding out with quantum physics, that’s kind of where we’re getting in now, and how we’re all wave forms of activity. And our consciousness intersects that to make it a, you know, our existence of what our world is around us. So what we’re seeing with laser energy is it’s tapping into that quantum field activation. And that’s, that’s, you know, obviously, we could go on for 10 hours about quantum entanglement and string theory and quantum physics and all that, but just think of it that in that concept. But then as you get into, say, inflammation, then you start to say, “well, what are your main molecules that affect inflammation?” Nuclear factor kappa beta is the linchpin of all inflammatory cascades. And then it goes off into like Cox-2 and interleukin-6 and interleukin-1B and interleukin-17, all these things. Well, if you can regulate and change the output of those inflammatory cascades, then you can dampen inflammation.

Well, that’s the lasers do. Just think of it in simple terms, if you’ve got access nuclear factor Kappa Beta, because you’re maybe you’re dealing with a pathogen like cytomegalovirus. Or maybe you’re dealing with excess sugar intake or whatever, whatever’s causing that inflammation, if you can turn down that dial, well red lasers have been shown to be able to down regulate all those inflammation cascades. Red lasers have been shown to actually promote free radical undoing, just by doing the right Janus amount of nitric oxide synthase.

So, just like some exercise is good and it primes the pump for antioxidant systems for cellular metabolism for all those things, but too much will overwhelm the cell. It’s the exact same thing with laser, you know. When you’re in the right hormesis, the right dose, it promotes all the antioxidant systems because it actually promotes a nice reactive oxygen species. That’s actually how it kills off viruses and bacteria too. Just like you’ve heard of like, with certain epidemics that are happening and whatnot like terms like N-acetylcysteine, like your precursor for glutathione, is very effective in going after some of these pathogens, lasers in the exact same umbrella or under the exact same umbrella with that. But really just think of it in simple terms, like get that energy into the human body. So it can do all the things that it needs to repair itself. It’s just like chiropractic adjustments and things like that. When you have a healthy nervous system, it the magic happens when you unlock those keys, all those beautiful things that a healthy brain and healthy central nervous system can do with immunology with digestion, with inflammation with pathogens, and the list goes on and on that laser devices gives you that energy to do that.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, we were talking with docs, and this is a conversation that we’ve had at length, from our position and our vantage point, if that’s what you want to call it, it appears to both Dr. Wells and myself that this is where the conversation seems to be migrating further and further towards in the realm of you can call it functional medicine, functional neurology, you know, functional health in general. All these various groups seem to be tapping, and even outside of that, like various health practitioners in general, all seem to be scratching the surface at varying links of this concept of energetic healing energetic medicine, energetic strategies, we’ll just say that, you know. Whether that be light, sound, vibration, or a combination of those sorts of things. That seems to be from our perception, what seems to be a lot of the kind of cutting edge new direction things are going is that an accurate statement from your perspective?

Dr. Trevor Berry: I totally agree with that. And that, you know, have your listeners go to say, look at the work MIT is doing with 40 hertz frequency applications to the brain. Just flashing a 40 hertz visually evoked potential has been shown to reverse amyloid lagging, reverse neurofibrillary tangles, things like that. And that’s why when I teach my master brain setting, I teach 40 hertz is arguably one of the most important frequencies you can put into the human brain. How about, to your point with sound, binaural therapies, like where they inject, you know, different frequencies and your brain picks up the difference? 40 hertz is a huge one. 10 hertz is a big one for brain activity, parasympathetic modulation, things like that. We love one hertz frequency like that slow delta wave for sensory processing and subcortical and inter hemispheric integration.

So yeah, what like my master brain setting I include one hertz, 10 hertz, 40 hertz and 60 hertz because those are very important frequencies for brain activation. Because that’s kind of the cherry on top with your lasers, you can do various frequencies specific. One of the first researchers, I think that really paved the way for this was Royal Wright? If you look at Wright frequencies, like when he was using to take out pathogens and things like that, there’s different frequencies that different cells and molecule respond to. So yeah, you can get that deep into your, into your application. I’m big on, you know, again, that’s kind of the cherry on top, you know, if you got the right wavelength and dose, that’s the most important thing with lasers to the brain. But if you want to dive deep into like, you know, I have certain sleep frequencies, I have certain depression, you know. Like, for example, depression patients love a six hertz frequency to the right prefrontal cortex. So we’ll teach as advanced is like, okay, get your laser biases at the right prefrontal cortex and use 6-9-10, you know, as part of your application to get better outcomes with your depression patients. And, you know, I could go on for hours, like when my whole weekend talking about these advanced neural applications, but that’s to your point, you can get very specific with frequency applications.

Dr. Andrew Wells: What would you say to docs, I know, you trained doctors all over the country, maybe you’re all over the world who don’t have a diplomate in neurology and maybe don’t have your advanced training, what would you say to doctors who maybe are musculoskeletal based practitioners that maybe they have interest in getting into helping with some brain based protocols? Where would you advise them to? Is there like a starting point for that?

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah. So that’s why I teach just your basic brain application. So I have naturopath, nurse practitioners, integrative medical docs, like I have every kind of specialty on my seminar, which is great, because we need everyone. This is neurodegeneration. We need everyone pulling in the same direction. Because if you look at the major killers in this country, they’re saying half of us now will die with a dementia diagnosis. That’s what the statistics are showing.

So my teaching point is this, I teach very advanced brain and body applications, but I also teach all of my attendees to just get the laser on the brain with the master brain setting with a base protocol, the prefrontal, apical, brainstem, cerebellum, vagal nerve stimulation, that’s it. Two minutes, two minutes, two minutes, two minutes, get that in there, and you’ve walked out with a successful seminar, everything else is just cherry on top. So even if you’re only treating low back pain, or left knee pain or whatever, I want all the attendees to have every family member and every patient to get brain applications with their lasers, so that we can confer protection and repair of all these patients that are walking into every single one of our offices. We’re all going through neurodegeneration, we’ve all had concussions, we’ve mild traumatic brain injury, we’ve all had dietary stuff, we’ve all had genetic, like we all have these things that need brain protection. So no matter if you’re treating their low back, my patients are still getting brain applications. And we talked about that last episode about swimming upstream, even for pain applications. But there is not a patient that walks out of my office that typically is not getting either a base brain application and a base vagal nerve stimulation. That’s it. That’s all you got to do. You don’t have to worry about is it in the right prefrontal? Are you doing, you know, left trigeminal, that doesn’t matter. Just get the laser on the brain at that nice safe dose that Erchonia has, and you’re going to confer protection and repair.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Now, Erchonia has several different models of lasers. And I think you mentioned on the last episode that you have nine going in your practice pretty much from the time you open your door to the time you close your doors. Maybe you can explain what actual devices you’re using and why.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, so my favorite lasers are their FX models. That’s the scanning, they have multiple rotating diodes that scan. So that makes it even easier if you’re just doing general brain application, you have the scanning diodes, it’s like a disco show going and just exposes their entire brain. And so you’re getting that nice coverage like that. Or let’s say you’re doing it over the gut or over a knee or over the low back.

So their FX 635 is the red scanning device. And that the new FX 405, which is my favorite laser of their whole stable, that’s got three red diodes plus of rotating a violet diode. And violet, we’re seeing with pain management, like we talked about that last episode, but on top of red, violet is one of your best things for anti-microbial. So you get all the benefits of like UV light like UVC. But violet in the visible spectrum at 405 nanometers is not damaging to mammalian cells. So unlike a sunburn or something. We all know sunlight, UV, like you go to these med spas and stuff. What do they put the instruments in? Under UV light. Well, if it’s in the visible spectrum, it doesn’t have the damaging effects of UVC. So the FX 405 and the FX 635 are amazing. But for a lot of docs that are in the field, they’re getting the EVRL which is the violet and red handle. That’s what it stands for Erchonia Violet Red Light, or laser. And that’s the most common one that most docs, and even my patient base use.

You know, again, with all the epidemic stuff, a lot of the pathogens, like you know, for example, they use in COVID models, and again not to get into, I’m not trying to get anyone in trouble saying they’re treating COVID or not saying that, but there’s FDA studies showing that your violet and red lasers have been effectively used to go after pathogens like RNA replicating pathogens like COVID models. 54% kill rate with the violet rate laser, for example. So, you know, so we use that, but the handhelds their entry level one is just the base red one is called the XLR8. And we also have the Zerona, the body contouring laser in our office as well. We have a PL-Touch but that’s they’re not making that anymore. So what I’m really diggin doctors that are doing, they have a base station where you can get three of the handhelds. And what we’re doing and what a lot of doctors are doing is they have two of the handhelds going in their office, but they rent the third one out and what that’s doing is paying for all their laser devices but more importantly, it’s more for the patients. You know, say they’re stuck at home with a pathogen. Say they’re stuck at home with a knee operation. They rent the laser out for a week or two weeks or whatever. It’s generating passive revenue for the doctors and the patients get the benefits of getting treated every day at the comfort of their own home.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Wow! Is there anything that you want to add, so this episode we’re talking about brain health, are we, are we missing anything in terms of where the where the puck is moving and in terms of brain health? Is there anything that you can add to that? Like, where’s this headed?

Dr. Trevor Berry: Well, when you look at like, even what they’re saying, with Alzheimer’s. It’s actually, you know, some studies say it’s six different conditions, some studies are saying it’s a inflammation based condition, which can be food infection things like that, some studies are saying it’s an autoimmune condition. Well, to regulate the autoimmune system, so it doesn’t overshoot like with th-1, th-2, th-17, those are all technical terms. But when you have an immune response, a big topic we should talk about briefly as your barrier systems. We’re having gut and blood brain barrier disruption, like nobody’s business these days, based on foods based on trauma, based on toxins in our system, stress, high blood, all these things that cause various system disruption. Stuff’s getting into the brain like pathogens that shouldn’t be in there. So you better have something that can attack the pathogen, and regulate the immune response.

Well lasering, the brain will do that. Lasers have been shown to go after cytomegalovirus, herpes simplex virus, Epstein Barr Virus, like with multiple sclerosis, and do the repair that epstein barr molecular mimicry does with emit. So pathogens is another big thing you have to be able to address. But alongside that is that immune regulation, so you have proper immune responses and turning down the dial. And the cherry on top is laser in the brain and the vagus nerve will actually repair the blood brain barrier, as well as doing it over the gut and the vagus nerve will repair the gut barrier as one of the methods.

So you have to have that integrative approach to be able to check off a lot of boxes, antioxidant inflammation, pathogens, blood flow, mitochondria, new pathway formation, new nerve formation, undo damage to neurons with amyloid plaques. So lasers technically can check off every single box if it’s in the right dose under that 13% of your square. So I think to your point, to kind of simplify that answer is that if you, no matter what your training is, you have to have all this functional neuro stuff like that, just know that intrinsic to your savior Erchonia device, all most major things, other than not putting that doughnut back into your mouth and other than not whacking your head on the football field, lasers will will kind of be the great equalizer to come in behind all that damage that we’re doing to our brain and help repair it just by getting that laser energy on the brain. So now you’ve got a homerun, even if you don’t know a thing about neurology,

Dr. Chad Woolner: Correct me if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall hearing they’re trying to now create a new designation of a type three diabetes, for brain. Is that correct? That’s what you were alluding to?

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, so one of the things that happens with excess sugar in our diet, is we start taking off that amyloid precursor protein. One of the mechanisms for that, when you hear those plaques on the brain, what’s one of your earlier warning signs about, like they even have an FDA clearance study now when they look at amyloid 142 and 40 ratios, which are two of the big ones with brain based plaqing, one of the mechanisms that sugar starts ticking off that amyloid plaque too much. So that plaque that was those ligaments of amyloid start to build up. And normally your glial systems taking those out, like taking out the garbage, but it competes with the binding site, so that the glial cells can’t take out the garbage.

So those plaques build up on the outside and start to junk up or clog up the ability for neurons to communicate and do those things. So that’s one of the things. Now one of the areas where pharmaceuticals that you’ve probably heard about Biogen with Agile health, that was a disaster. It was the first ever FDA cleared drug to treat Alzheimer’s, well, technically, it didn’t treat Alzheimer’s, it was going after the plaque. Well, that’s only a small part of the equation. I’m not dismissing out the plaquing but to your point, sugar is a big cover with that. The other thing is the pathogens, because some of the newer research is showing if I say Epstein Barr or Herpes Simplex or something in my brain, guess what your brain is trying to do to trap the pathogen, it puts that plaque out like a jail cell in simple terms of trying to do that. So either way, you want to do stuff to either mitigate the pathogen or get that sugar out of your diet so that it doesn’t get that type 3 diabetes.

Dr. Chad Woolner: It’s such a similar pattern that we see everywhere else in the body, like with the whole cholesterol story, right? They never address what’s driving the cholesterol in the first place. When you have damage to endothelial cells that the body is going to send cholesterol to patch the walls. It’s the same sort of thing. It’s the body’s just doing what it’s supposed to do. You know, you’re just they’re just ignoring it. And you know, yeah, it’s crazy.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Exactly. And you bring up a great point with that because it’s the oxidized cholesterol and the damage you know like free radicals like homocysteine. Why is that not on every lab test in America? Homocysteine, not only does it damage the endothelial but it also makes your brain neurons go poof.

Dr. Andrew Wells: You have to have a bit of an integrative approach, right? Because some of my neurodegeneration cases are more food based like type three diabetes with sugar and that kind of thing. Some of its more pathogens, things like that. Well, one of the big things there’s not a pharmaceutical that’s ever going to be able to check off all the boxes. Good luck trying to design something that deals with autoimmunity, deals with inflammation, deals like there’s just way too many variables. But on the flip side, your lasers, as you’re hearing from these podcasts are very versatile to check off most of the boxes of the major boxes that are needed.

So unfortunately, because of the, you know, the pharmaceutical dogma, if you will, you know, they’re kind of stuck in that old model of, “Well, is there a surgery that can undo dementia?” No, there’s not. They can’t do anything about that. “Is our pharmaceutical is gonna check off all the boxes ?” No, it’s not. I really like the work Dale Bredesen is doing out of UCLA, you know, he’s doing some very cutting edge work. And he’s a medical doctor, you know, have research on this. And talking about how, you know, you want to take this integrative approach, like we’ve been talking about the last hour. And what was neat is I just did an event in Orlando, and one of his cohorts that he collaborates with in research was Dr. Tanya was a medical doctor. You know, they had all the dietary stuff they talked about and being like gluten free, dairy free, low carbs, they talk about nutrition that’s good for the brain. Well, for the first time ever, I heard those groups talking about low level laser therapy, and photobiomodulation, which was music to my ears. I was like sweet, some of the top medical researchers on the reversal of Alzheimers are now talking about light therapies on the brain being an effective tool. And so I just happen to be at the right place at the right time, you know, over a decade ago kind of spearheading this movement, but it’s kind of neat that it is getting a little bit more mainstream and the understanding and what not. The literature there. There’s the 10s of 1000s, like there’s, like I said in the last one, there’s about 11,000 papers. And so it’s not that it’s lacking in research applications and evidence, empirical evidence, it’s just that it’s not being looked at, you know, there’s not too many doctors out there. In especially in the hardcore Western medicine community that you’ve even heard of lasering the brain. That’s part of my goal, and why I love getting the medical community at my seminars, because they see the research and they see the application like wow, this is actually, you know, legitimate game changers, right?

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I would say better late than never. And that’s more often the case I was there was a review that was done in, I’m looking at it here Institute of Public Health University of Cambridge, and the title says enough. It says, “The answer is 17 years. What is the question? Understanding time lags in translational research.” And so the problem that we’re talking about, here’s the same problem that we tend to see. And we’ve talked about this, I think, in previous podcast episodes, is that there’s just always these lags. And so that’s the cool thing is that you’ve kind of got your finger on the pulse of what’s current, and what’s, you know, what’s what’s really relevant now for really getting the best results with patients, which is really really got to be exciting. So I know we could talk for hours and hours on on this and dive even deeper. And again, I’m sure we will have future episodes. But any final thoughts in closing for doc’s who are maybe interested or excited about this topic? Anywhere else? Any final kind of closing remarks?

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, so I think a good good starting point where if you can get the one of the seminars or like we’re streaming worldwide now with events, things like that, if they go to Erchonia.com, they can see all of my and look my name up on the on the events list, you can you can go to any of the seminars or see here I’m going to be all throughout North America. And like you said Wool, I’m going to be back in Europe this year. My website is AZCairoNeuro.com. And you can get more information about how we do the integrative approach here in my office. But I just really hope the doctors listening know, whatever their practice specialty is, lasers can be a beneficial tool, whether it’s pain management, orthopedic sports, performance, whatever. But I really am trying to endorse it and promote all doctors and they get this laser, the Erchonia laser technology on the brains of all their family members themselves, their patients. The longer your brains working better, the better you no longer be able to practice and serve others and help humankind and the more people we get on this train, the more we can finally start to curb this this scary trajectory of neurodegeneration in this country. And so that’s why I teach base brain applications so that doctors don’t feel like, “oh, this is way too complicated for me.” Every doctor that I teach can turn on the laser, can have their preset settings in there, hit one button and point the laser at the brain, like it can literally be as simple as that. So I really hope all the doctors that make that investment in their own brains are buying and investing in lasers for their own family, their own personal use, and then just apply it to every patient that’s coming through the doors, because the demand is there. I always tell doctors serving your patients, “how many of them would want to be interested in preventing, like things like Alzheimer’s, like dementia?” And there’s not too many people that aren’t going to raise their hand and say, “Yes, I definitely want to have that capacity.” And so it just provides a nice monotherapeutic modality to check off a lot of the boxes. So it’s definitely a worthy investment. And I really hope more doctors are, are getting that information and applying that in their practice.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, well said. I can’t help but think, I know this is gonna sound kind of corny, but my wife and I, we watch that show, “This is Us” on, I think it’s on NBC, we watch on Hulu, but they’re nearing the end of the season. And it’s following the life of this mother in this whole family, but she’s dying from some type of neurodegenerative, Alzheimer’s type issue. And then we’re at the near final episode where she passes away. And it’s sad because you get to know these characters but even though this is fictional, it’s a fictional story, this is people’s story all the time, you know, clearly like this is what we’re dealing with. And so it’s fairly touching, you know, and it starts getting you thinking, at least it does me. You know, I’m 42 years old, and I care about being around a lot longer for my kids, and hopefully, their kids and their kid’s kids. And so what you’re talking about here is extremely relevant to all of us. And so hopefully, again, docs will take that to heart. Hopefully, this will ignite an excitement within them to want to dig in a little bit deeper and start incorporating these tools in their practices to help more patients. So again, huge thank you, Dr. Berry for your time, and we really appreciate your expertise and sharing, sharing that with us and we hope that this will help change a lot of people’s lives.

Dr. Trevor Berry: And thank you guys. You’re doing a great job sharing the message. You’re really an honor to be on. Hopefully anytime you guys want me back on, we’ll keep exploring these different topics. But thank you for helping get that information out there. I’d be happy to be back anytime.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Absolutely, absolutely. For sure. So docs, thanks for listening. Share this with those that you feel could benefit from it, and we will talk to you on the next episode.

Thanks for listening to The Laser Light show, be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchonia lasers just head on over to Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.

Podcast Episode #9: How Erchonia is Changing the Weight Loss Game with Dr. Brandon Brock and James Shanks

On today’s episode we sit down with Dr. Brandon Brock and James Shanks to discuss how Erchonia’s Zerona and Emerald Lasers are providing doctors and patients with powerful new options in helping those who are looking for solutions for non-invasive fat reduction. To learn more about these tools you can check out Erchonia’s site here:

https://www.erchonia.com/product-category/lasers-for-fat-loss/

To learn more about Dr. Brandon Brock and his trainings you can find out more here:

https://www.erchonia.com/seminars/

https://functionalneurologyseminars.com/brandon-brock/

Transcript

Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody, Dr. Chad Woolner here with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and our special guests today: Dr. Brandon Brock and James Shanks from Erchonia, and today Episode 9 of The Laser Light Show, we are going to be talking about how Erchonia is changing the weight loss game. So let’s get to it.

Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Alright everybody and welcome to the show. We have with us Dr. Brandon Brock and James Shanks. How are you fellas doing?

Dr. Brandon Brock: Good thanks!

James Shanks: Doing wonderful! Thank you gentlemen.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome awesome. James I’m assuming you’re in Florida. Dr. Brock. Is that correct James?

James Shanks: Yes sir I am.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome, and Dr. Brock where are you at right now?

Dr. Brandon Brock: I’m in Dallas, Texas.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Dallas, Texas. Awesome. Well uh, I guess a great place to start is maybe just a quick intro; who you guys are, how you fit into this whole equation with Erchonia, and yeah. Let’s maybe start there.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Go ahead James.

James Shanks: Okay, yeah I’ll go ahead and get us started off here. So yeah I wanna first off thank you guys for having us on. This is very exciting to be part of this podcast. Myself, James Shanks, I’ve been with Erchonia corporation now for 21 years. As many of you…those that might know or might not know, we are a family owned medical laser manufacturer. Having been in business for 27 years. Myself, I’ve been grateful to be a part of this for 21 years. I’ve worked through every different aspect of Erchonia corporation; seeing this corporation built from the ground up – a true American dream, how it was initially started through you’ve heard in some of your earlier podcasts, so it’s very exciting for me. So now i’ve been blessed to be a part of this and help launch the newest line of lasers for Erchonia corporations which is the Emerald laser system as a product director so I’ve had many years of experience understanding lasers and its various applications and i’m just glad to be a part of this next generation of lasers and how its transforming non-invasive fat reduction and medical weight loss industry.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Very very cool yeah, the Erchonia story is amazing and it is number one, the founding of it but also just the fact that it’s still a family company is really cool. Good to have you on the show. Dr. Brock, tell us a little about yourself.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Well I’m Dr. Brandon Brock and I live in Dallas, Texas where I practice mainly, just sort of integrative practice. We do a lot of chronic illness, I also do a lot of orthopedics. I’m a doctorate in nursing practice – I’m also a chiropractor, hopefully maybe a PHD pretty soon so we’ll see how that goes but I have been very blessed I gotta tell you to be able to work with Erchonia, it is a family owned company and that makes it a tight knit…sort of good communication, the ability to help with research and development, the ability to go out and present and demonstrate and teach. One of the philosophies they have is not just talking about lasers but teach people physiology, labs, anatomy, how to be a better practitioner all around – they really gain that philosophy in regards to education over the last several years and it’s been fantastic. So, offering things to doctors in regards to education and then developing newer devices that are always improving in regards to lasers and really today one of my favorite areas is really body composition, fat loss and reduction for a whole bunch of reasons which I think we’ll probably talk about but yeah this is a great moment, thank you so much for letting me be on here, i’m really glad I get to be here with James as well.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, well we’re excited to have you both here with us. On a personal note, Dr. Brock, I was – this was years ago, I was in one of your classes in Portland, a CE class that you were doing on functional medicine and man now here you are getting ready to get your PHD. That doesn’t surprise me in the least just cause I remember at that class learning so much. I’ve got binders full with copious notes from that experience so it’s our privilege and honor to have you both here with us so we’re excited. So I think for me I’m fairly familiar with the Zerona Laser. Maybe we start there in terms of talking…you know differences between the Zerona and now this Emerald Laser. Is that a good starting off point, jumping off point?

Dr. Brandon Brock: Actually, can I start somewhere before then – I want to dive into that, but I want to share an experience that I had years ago as a chiropractor. We were always looking for good, unique things to add to our practice and weight loss was always one thing we were interested in. Mainly dealing with patients who had musculoskeletal problems, weight was always a factor. We always had a challenge with patients trying to get them and helping them to lose weight. Whether it was through lifestyle modifications, diet, exercise, we had pretty poor compliance to be honest with our patients in losing weight and that no doubt contributed to their back pain and their hip pain and their knee pain and other joint pain. And so we added years ago we added body contouring in our clinic. Full transparency I did some research and bought like probably the cheapest machine on the market – it looked like and probably was Chinese made and I think we paid maybe a couple grand for this machine and it had sixteen of these LED paddles and these LED paddles emitted a red light and we would wrap the patient in these paddles.

And we noticed some change with our patients because the patients would lose inches but I gotta be honest I was pretty disappointed in the total results for our patients and we- it wasn’t cheap for our patients to go through the program and we did it for several months and eventually scrapped it because we were not getting the results that we felt our patients deserved.

And so I kinda wanted to set the stage for the weight loss industry – there are so many different things even aside from body contouring, there’s so many new concepts and ideas and really a lot of snake oil type stuff in the weight loss industry because I think patients are desperate for change and they want to lose weight – they want to look good, they want to feel good and there’s lots of options for patients and there’s lots of options for doctors and so I wanted to start this podcast with that in mind and really I want to set the stage for what Erchonia is doing and why they’re different in the weight loss space and maybe that’s maybe we can kick it off there.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, James go for it.

James Shanks: Sorry, didn’t mean to cut you off there. No but yeah, I think you’re absolutely right and from your experience that speaks volumes just to what you’ve gone through which is much like a lot of people out there. When they’re looking at non-invasive fat reduction or body contouring, it’s hard to decipher what’s actually true, what actually has validity to it and like you said, you went and bought something off market, might’ve been from China, some LED pads there’s plenty of those on the market for sure but it’s a very competitive industry, a lot of people are getting involved and I think you started off the broadcast talking about all the FDA clearances that Erchonia has achieved and a great number of those has been on non-invasive fat reduction and kinda the introduction to the market.

In 2009 was the first initial launch of the system which would be first Zerona using red laser technology which in the last ten years has received five FDA clearances on that particular device alone and I think that holds a lot of value and weight when you’re looking at non-invasive fat reduction systems. And at this current time and if you look at the market and how its continually evolving especially coming out of this small pandemic being [INAUDIBLE] as I’m saying it now, that now it’s more important than ever, with patients that have been sitting at home, everyone’s been stagnant, bad diet. It’s people are coming out of this heavier than ever, lack of mobility, so it’s becoming more important and not to mention the high obesity rate even going into the pandemic.

So for non-invasive fat reduction systems like you experience yourself, you are looking at something that was LED based. It’s very superficial and those who might not know all the level one double live placebo controlled clinical trials that Erchonia does is with a placebo group which is an LED device. And if you just look at the simple comparisons to our first initial launch to the red laser technology, the comparison showed in the three weeks worth of treatments with the Zerona that the average patient loss with true laser which is 3.73 inches versus an LED pad which you had was just under an inch. So you could see there’s a great difference as far as overall results and outcome when just looking at those specific two examples of LED technology or actual true visible laser. And now there’s many other systems since the time of the inception of our first initial red laser system, the Zerona.

Now there’s things out there which a lot of you guys are familiar with the cryolipolysis, ultrasound radio frequency, high intensity laser, CO2s, LEDs. There’s so many different types of systems in the market now that make it a very competitive market, but it’s very unique. What I alway explain to anyone that ever discusses non-invasive fat reduction with me is – don’t take my word for it, look at the research, show what the research says because a lot of these other devices out there, whether it’s cryolipolysis, ultrasound, radio frequencies – they do have indications for the FDA, but if you look at the actual clinical trial data, the results are very minimal but I will give these other companies a lot of credit. They do a fantastic job of marketing on their side to really promote their products.

And even now more so, is those initial clinical trials that we’ve done which is more than most companies have, we’ve stumbled into something better and that’s what leads us into now what we have is the Emerald laser system and it’s really approaching something different that we haven’t seen before. The original model was using the red 635 nanometer wavelength which is very effective but we’re seeing, we had seen in our clinical trial data using green at 532 that it has about 25% to 30% more energy so we were able to have better results when we treated those same patients for the same amount of time with red. We’re able to get a full inch better results in less time.

So what we are doing is we’re seeing that we’re continuing evolving in our approach to not just medicine in general in the healthcare industry but also aesthetics and non-invasive fat reduction but I’d say most importantly what we’ve seen for the green laser system is we are still the only company in the world that’s does a FDA level one clinical trial to show what the outcomes would be on patients for 30 to 40 BMI. And those who are not familiar, that’s in the obese range or obesity range. So we are treating patients of widespread fat. Where typically everything else that you would see on the market – it’s going to be in the ranges of 20 to 30 BMI which is small pockets of fat that might be considered aesthetic treatment. So now we have something that’s looked at much differently now. It’s not just small pockets of fat but widespread fat. Patients that are much larger in size who really need the help with their weight, with their fat reduction and that’s what we’re looking at now. So we’re looking at something that’s kinda changing the way you look at non-invasive reduction treatment and I know first hand that Dr. Brandon Brock can speak to those things that he speaks of what he sees in his clinic there and I’m not gonna take up too much here and you can come back to me but I want to pass it over to Dr. Brock so he can talk about just the things that he’s seen and how he’s even taken it to the next level for non-invasive fat reduction.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I’m excited to hear your experience first hand. That’s kinda the unique position you’re in. You know is working hand in hand with Erchonia, you get to see kinda what’s happening on the clinical research side of things but also first hand in practice, you know your experiences. So yeah that being said, I’m excited to hear what you have to say about that.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah well. It’s been really great to be able to you know be sort of a clinical instructor and talk about the devices and what they do – not just for weight loss but for pain also. But again, you know we do a lot of not just weight loss, body contouring. You know just breaking down on body fat so people can you know look better, feel better, and so forth. But you know we got a lot of chronically ill patients here that they want to go just beyond looking better. They want to feel better and so it’s really interesting. You know we do a lot of observational studies and so in order to really qualify for our sort of program I run just some basic labs you know I don’t want to do this when somebody with hypothyroidism and I don’t want to do it on certain people that have conditions where it’s really impossible to lose weight no matter what you’re doing.

We like to screen those people, just as a good medical oversight but one of the things that we’ve noticed is that fat cells make leptins and it was really interesting what I heard in the introduction because those cells make leptin, they go up to the brain and it just sort of says – look there’s more fat here. So can you just slow down the eating and it says this but the hypothalamus and then you know you’re supposed to slow down your eating so you don’t have as much you know obesity. But it’s really easy for the brain to get leptin resistant and so the leptins keep going up and up and up and the brain just ignores it because it does the same thing with insulin.

Those leptins, they actually end up going into joints and they actually react with hyaluronic acid and you get sort of an inflammatory component. Sort of like synovitis and it makes your joints hurt. So fat actually does make joints hurt. A lot of people are like “Hey, look my knees hurt because I’m overweight” but then you start talking to them and they’re like “Well my hands hurt too” but you know that has nothing to do you know putting pressure on them. So a lot of people think that pressure and weight is really the big factor on the knees. One of the things we’re noticing is the fat starts the inflammation and then the weight further breaks it down.

And so we monitor leptins and what we’ve noticed that with you know just with some preliminary observational data is that when we use the laser the leptins are dropping tremendously so the people aren’t as hungry. It’s not just you know opening up a fat cell and you know reducing its content. Now we’re seeing leptins come down. The other thing that I was really concerned about was my patients that had insulin resistance or you know diabetes or borderline diabetes because it’s more difficult for them to lose weight. We’ve noticed almost a full point and reduction of A1C over the course of what we do is twelve treatments. And then really since the beginning of the pandemic, we‘ve seen a lot of people with inflammation, their c-reactive proteins have gone up and we have a lot of inflamed people and that allows people to carry water and they don’t get the look that they want and we’ve noticed that that’s dropped tremendously as well.

And then fat really also produces the chemical called adiponectin and then adiponectin comes out of fat and they stop inflammation. So if you have high leptins and low adiponectin you could really be stroking the fire of inflammation throughout your whole body just by your own obesity. What we’ve noticed is that we’ve increased adiponectins and we’ve done this with just laser technology. There’s very little nutrition use, we’re not really using medication. Of course we’re encouraging diets, we’re encouraging exercise and stuff like that, but I think the biggest thing that I’m really wanting to get across here is yes, we do get great results in regards to inches loss, we’re getting anywhere from five to seventeen or eighteen inches total inches you know lost body fat you know size, inches which is incredible. But we’re also seeing is all these you know really big factors in regards to our labs, our patients are getting healthier and I think that using the device, using the Emerald to promote health and to kickstart the promotion of health has been fantastic for us.

James Shanks: Yes so that’s incredible and this is why we titled this podcast “How Erchonia is Changing the Weightloss Game” I hope doctors are picking up on this because oftentimes when we look at body contouring we look at it just in the lines as aesthetics. And aesthetics is important and everybody wants to look and feel good but I want doctors to pick up on what Dr. Brock is saying that in and of itself is the positive factor of other things like joint pain and insulin resistance and weight loss resistance and overall health and metabolics so I you know, I’m happy that you’re here Dr.Brock because the thing that recurring theme here is it’s not just lasers work systemically on lots of different pathophysiology. I think that’s just incredible. My guess is that patients are coming in because they want to look good but the side effect is they’re actually healthier when they leave and I can tell you based on my experience just using these kinds of cheap LED panels that wasn’t a side effect that we were getting with any of our patients.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I was gonna say that’s exciting to hear as well because a lot of times, exactly what you’re saying Dr. Brock is that patients are coming into you for multiple reasons, not just to lose weight but also because of the joint pain and so and I’m confident that your clinic offers more solutions besides weight loss programs obviously as an integrated clinic, you probably obviously address like you said orthopedics, joint pain and whatnot but it’s almost as though these lasers are kind of like jump starting the plan for these people. Is that a kind of a simple way of putting it?

Dr. Brandon Brock: Well it is for us. It’s really the paradigm that’s kind of changing. I have a lot of people coming in now. They’re like I want to use the laser because I want to detox fat and I want to help some of these other parameters because you know the word kind of gets around. And so it’s really been kind of you know unusual. We have patients trying to come in just to get healthier and they don’t even really have the aspects in mind. Of course, we still have the majority of our patients that want to look better but end up feeling better. Not just because they like the way they look, they feel better because they’re not as inflamed, their joints don’t hurt as much, they don’t have as much brain fog, their blood sugar has changed, we health coach them, their diet has changed. We do give them some exercise pointers and stuff like that so it really becomes a whole program and it enriches really the depth of your practice. It takes chronically ill patients and it makes them feel better about themselves and it takes people who just want to feel better about themselves and it teaches them about health so we’ve really been able to help just a whole different set of patients across the board. It’s way more versatile than what people think.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah I was going to say one of the recent studies that we came across that was really eye opening to us was Stanford just released in study in 2021 showing that people with insulin resistance are two times more likely to struggle with major depression and some people can look at that instantly and say “oh well, insulin resistance causes depression” and obviously that could be a very reasonable assumption but for us what that says, at least to me is what you’re dealing with is the same whether it’s leptin insensitivity, insulin insensitivity, or other inflammatory markers that are no doubt there, all those things are going to contribute to you know biochemical issues that will certainly create problems that could lead to you know depression and things like that. And so my guess is that you’re probably addressing a lot of those factors as well and that’s probably an explanation of why people are feeling better too – mentally, emotionally as well because you’re probably addressing a lot of those same issues that are contributing as well.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah I mean one of the other… it’s really interesting you say that because we’ve looked at it of course – it’s hard to determine why people are happy of course. There’s so many things like I feel better, I’m happy, I look better, I’m happy. What’s interesting is you know when you have insulin resistance you really alter the types of amino acids that cross the blood-brain barrier that are really precursors to neurotransmitters. You know you alter like leucine, isoleucine, valine and really you lower the amount of tryptophan and tyrosine that can make serotonin and dopamine. And so when we reduce insulin resistance and by the way, our c-peptides which we use to measure insulin resistance – we have about an average of 50% reduction in those that have insulin resistance.

So I mean serotonin levels and dopamine levels, not that we really measure them in this but people are – they have more hope with dopamine and the things that they love, they love more because serotonin is there so the volume knob on their happiness was sort of turned up. It is so you know when we get that c-peptide down and we get that A1C down, people really need to realize you might have just shaved – I don’t know I mean we could guess 10, 15, 20 years of them having misery because they’re diabetic or borderline diabetic and now we’ve sort of rolled back time, they may never get it. And I really, that is a huge deal when you’re looking at metabolic components of physiology. If you can bring down anyone and keep peptides, you have done an amazing job and of course you know we do dietary stuff and everything but we’ve done that the whole time when we added the laser into it. Things were accelerated in regards to what we could do with those markers.

Dr. Chad Woolner: And that’s amazing and what’s exciting to me when I hear that is that for a lot of patients that I see who are dealing with these sorts of issues, for many of them, it’s not that they’re not willing to try exercise and diet, things like that, but I think due to a variety of factors including maybe perhaps even dare we say predatory marketing practices in this market, people are just exhausted with empty promises and so a lot of people are looking for something to kind of maybe help them get a little momentum and get some quick wins under their belt that will help kind of reignite if you will, kind of a higher level of motivation for them and so my guess is that this is at least in part is starting to do a little bit of that. Is that what you’re seeing as well in your clinic?

Dr. Brandon Brock: You know everybody wants to see immediate results and when you get older and you have a bunch of other like underlying sort of borderline conditions, you’re not going to see immediate results. But with the laser, they start to see results much faster and so it does really motivate them to stay in the game of health. One of the biggest things is, you know people do really well in the program. They’re done and they’re like now what? And they want to come back and we make make you know certain types of programs where they can come back and keep maintenance and they stay healthier and they keep losing inches and they keep getting healthier and the next think you know, after six months of this, their entire life has changed, everything they do is changed, everything they do is changed – the way they eat, the way they sleep, they way they you know interact with people. They have truly learned to transform their life and of course, that’s not all laser but it has been such a gigantic part of it that we just really don’t know how to do it anymore without that component because it works so well. Not just to jump start it but to keep it going. And yeah that’s,again I’m going back to the depth of our practice. That’s made it alot better and believe me when I first got an Emerald, I was very nervous about how I was going to use it and I just started working with it and putting it into my practice and the way it fits and it fit in excellently.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Do you also use the Zerona or have you? I’m assuming you’ve also used the Zerona and maybe talk some of the differences between the Zerona and the Emerald.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Well I use an Emerald but of course I’ve discussed the Zerona physiology and how to use it and what it can do in many seminars. But I think this is one I would probably point back to James and let him discuss it because I don’t really have as much clinical experience with the Zerona as I do the Emerald. Even though I have a lot of friends that have a Zerona and are very successful with it and very happy with it – you know they do very similar programs that we do they just use a red light instead of green light.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah James maybe talk a little bit about that.

James Shanks: Yeah, absolutely I’d be happy to. As we evolved in the non-invasive fat reduction market and just looking at the approaches of the different wavelengths, we saw the involvement of which showed from the 635 red which was the Zerona to the Emerald 532. But the just basic mechanism in the actual components of that of how it affects the adipose sites, so they’re both going to emulsify the subcutaneous fat in the same manner of just collapsing it, allowing the cell to open up in the cell membrane to see the bound triglycerides. What we found with the 532 laser, which is the Emerald, is that it emulsified it faster. And the fact since it’s a smaller wavelength, it allows for deeper absorption into the body which allowed us to take it to the next level of looking at how it affected much larger patients.

So with the structure of non-invasive fat reduction, the Zerona’s a great product and so is using a 635 nanometer wavelength, the green laser is just more effective from what we’ve seen from emulsifying the fat much deeper into the body. Also, in less time plus allowing us more coverage on the patient and treating much longer. Now in the 30 to 40 BMI range, even to the fact now that we have ongoing research now what we’re looking at treating patients higher than 40 BMI and into 50 BMI. We do have things that we’re working on currently and some of you are very familiar with the Mayo clinic and institute, well they themselves have decided to get a few Emerald laser systems because they have seen the research and seeing the effectiveness on non-invasive fat reduction and medical weight loss so they themselves have received a couple of Emerald laser systems and have purchased them to continue research along with the Mayo diet and even look at much larger patients up to 50 BMI.

So for us, it’s very exciting just to see the involvement and expanse of non-invasive fat reduction and who know what’s next but we know the newest investment is now the Emerald laser and not only just how it affects fat reduction but we’re still also seeing some secondary effects as far as the elasticity of the skin, not to mention the effects on collagen synthesis which is cellulitis. So you see a lot of extra added benefits to the emerald laser system that we didn’t see previously with the red technology.

Both are fantastic, both have clinicals done and had multiple FDA level one clinical trials and the results are great. Just the green at this point now seems to be better and gives us a broader spectrum and I’ll kind of you know open up that even more. What the Emerald allows us to do is, just myself as the product director and really getting the chance to evolve this technology and see where it really is going to go for us. I’ve been on the road for the last two years to introducing this to the market, trying to see kind of where it fits in and what we’ve seen with this is it’s appealing to every type of medical practitioner where we didn’t think that was the case earlier, might have not been the case with some other non-invasive treatments.

We have such diverse doctors and practitioners and medical providers – they’re now getting involved with this type of technology because it’s unlike something that hasn’t been seen. Anywhere from you know to the nurse practitioners, physician assistant, pulmonary doctors, urologists, cardiologists, medical weight loss, bariatrics, dermatologists, so you know even, in some states, dentists. So it’s really kind of opened up the market for something that’s considered aesthetics as we briefly talked about before. That’s really changing the way that we approach non-invasive fat reduction and medical weight loss and overall health and not to mention all the extra added benefits which Dr. Brandon Brock alluded to so for us, it’s very exciting because it’s not something that we were expecting. It’s really my myself but hearing all the feedback from doctors and practitioners like Dr. Brandon Brock. It seems to be a common theme that the patients are not just looking better but overall they’re feeling a lot better and they’re overall, I guess clarity and encouragement and just you know those in a lot of us have been around patients that you know are struggling with weight are struggling with just overall health. Now that you have something that can give them that, it’s great because it’s not just something you’re looking at to make them feel better – it’s something that you’re helping their quality of life and that’s really exciting.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah that’s- that is exciting and what you’re talking about with the Mayo Clinic, that’s gonna be really cool to see kind of how this progresses along and it’s cool to see you know. It doesn’t surprise me when you say that this is starting to expand into so many other medical and even dental clinics because at the end of the day, the question is do you see patients who are overweight? And that’s literally any type of practitioner you’re talking to whether it be a medical doctor, chiropractor, acupuncturist, physical therapist. We’re all dealing with it and it’s only compounding unfortunately and getting worse socially speaking. I’ve been seeing alot of social kickback against the term obesity itself which is really fascinating to me. I’ve been on social media, especially as of late and I think it’s just given the climate of things – socially, politically, whatever you want to call it. This is the latest group of people to push back or kick back whatever you want to call it against these terms and obesity rather than it being used as a clinical term, it’s all of a sudden become this like evil identifier. Do you know what I’m saying? Are you guys seeing that a lot of people really, this negativity associated with that people are taking this highly personally and turning it into something rather than an objective marker you know like dyslipidemia or metabolic syndrome or something like that. All of a sudden now people they’re almost kicking back against it and then almost like using weight as like a personal identifier you know and that’s not helping anything from what I can gather.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah I’ll kinda chime in on that. A lot of people, look everybody wants to be at a level of acceptance and I definitely understand that people who can’t lose weight and they’re obese and again that’s a diagnosis code, obesity. So if they’re obese and you know they don’t want to be obese shamed or fat shamed, I definitely understand that but one of the points that I had is – it’s not something that works like okay we need to learn to accept this.

What we need to really be teaching is being obese is not healthy. So I can love an obese person, I can care for an obese person, in fact I do in my office. That’s the reason why I have this machine. And so we can definitely identify people, be happy for them but just making up a narrative that is false and say that you know it’s okay to be obese and it’s okay to be who you are – but we want to encourage people to lower their BMI, not have heart disease, lower their BMI, not die from diabetes. Not lose their vision, not lose their sexual functions, not lose their sensation in their peripheral nerve function. You can identify however you want but it’s not going to change the fact that there’s more literature than you could ever read about what obesity does to your overall health so we can’t change those facts. So the people you know and so I’m always sort of like, yeah you know what there’s definitely no shaming here, that’s why we have you in here but we have to educate you on the facts. We can’t change those.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I almost wonder if the script is flipped and we had the same type of conversations around the exact opposite – let’s say anorexia, eating disorders and things like that, bulimia, I think people would inherently see the problem with that to where people with anorexia we’re saying that they were being shamed for anorexia same sort of thinking that you’re saying. You know that this is a clinical problem that needs to be addressed. There’s no sort of judgment against that person in terms of their character or in terms of who they are in terms of their identity. We’re talking about a problem that needs to be solved here and I think the more that people start to embrace and champion those types of narratives, like you said the problems are only going to get worse.

You know we got a, I think obviously like you’re saying, we’re inherently saying the same thing that we can still love these people and accept them for who they are but at the same time we still have to fight towards solving an inherent health epidemic that’s only getting worse you know so. To me when I hear you guys are saying that, it’s an exciting thing that we’re talking about with this technology, this is a tool that we can use to really start potentially changing the tide, shifting the tide in terms of this epidemic. So that’s got to feel really cool to be kind of on the cutting edge of this, of what you guys are doing.

Dr. Andrew Wells: I want to shift the conversation a little bit; I like where we’re going here and I want to talk about the business aspect of this. I know that weight loss clinics can be very lucrative if done the right way and I know that Zerona lasers and Emerald lasers are not the cheapest on the market and they’re not the cheapest for a reason. They have amazing clinical research to back up the results but maybe Dr. Brock you can speak to the financial aspect of the clinic so I know that question will circulate in docs and clinician’s heads of okay if we’re thinking about making the investment in a laser like this? What would this do in terms of the financial aspect of the clinic? Does it pay for itself? Is it lucrative? A profit generator? What does that look like for you and your clinic?

Dr. Brandon Brock: Well I can make it pretty simple for our clinic. You know the return investment, the money, everything – you can make it as complicated as you want but we really need one patient a month to make you know our payment and then everything you after that is profit. You know, assuming what you call profit. It’s just extra money that you’re making. So as a profit generator, you know without giving out any specific numbers I would say this – I’ve been very very very satisfied. I have not had to go out and do a ton of advertising because people like this technology because: A, it doesn’t hurt; B, It doesn’t bruise you up; C, it doesn’t burn; It’s not just spot reduction.

There’s a million things that I could say about it but as far as return on investment, actually compared to several other like restaurant chains and things like that and how long it would take you to you know start making money out of that and I made money out of mine the first month and so if you want to look at it in terms of revenue generation, it’s very difficult to find something where you can actually turn a profit in one month. In fact, you know we’ve, I can just say that we’ve made enough money to pay for our machine and we haven’t had it quite a year. We’ve had it just about a year so that’s the kinda stuff that I think people really wanna know. Can I do this? And the answer is yes. And it’s not like you have to really get in 10 or 20 patients a month just to you know make ends meet. It’s really not as difficult – it’s much easier than that.

Dr. Andrew Wells And one of the cool things I like about Erchonia lasers is that they look really freaking cool. Like I’ve seen a lot of different lasers like light devices and there’s nothing that looks as professional and high tech as Erchnoia lasers and I got to imagine for a lot of doctors if you have this in any capacity on display so to speak in your clinic or if patients are seeing like “Hey what is that? What’s that patient doing over there? like what is that device?” You’re gonna, you know, get patients who just kind of gravitate toward it and we’ll find it. We’ll find that machine and find the laser just from the fact that they’re in your office so that’s I think that deserves mentioning so yeah. and to find something that has a return on investment in the first month is pretty tough to find.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah and there’s really honestly that there’s nothing more beautiful than that green light shining. It really is pretty, it’s really eye opening. People are really attracted to it and it’s so really what else is interesting is what it’s doing with brown fat, what it’s doing with visceral fat, subcutaneous fat, gynoid fat.

I mean you know what if we can show and demonstrate that we are reducing fat around organ systems and stuff like that I mean that’s another game changer so we’ve been very healthy of our very happy with the health of the skin. Like James just said I mean we’ve done a lot with people don’t lose weight and then they have a lot of excess skin. Seems like they are getting much more tension and resistance and resilience in their skin. You can obviously add skin products to it and make it you know and enhance stuff so you know the cellulite is a big deal, stretch marks, especially over the belly of you know various individuals that you know maybe have been pregnant or you know maybe on the you know the backside. It’s just there’s so many cool things that we get out of it, that we see improved whatever you take, stretch marks and you reduce their visibility in somebody that may be more important to them than just weight loss in general or our body contouring in general. So people were happy for a lot of different reasons but yeah the green light is fun like a little disco.

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s so cool. James, if doctors listening to this and they’re wondering where they can learn more information about the Emerald laser or the Zerona laser or Erchonia in general, where would you have them go?

James Shank: Yeah absolutely, well there’s a few places they can go to look at it. If you just go to Erchonia.com, you’ll be able to find information on the products and upcoming events or you can go directly to the product websites. You have MyZerona.com and then EmeraldLaser.com will have a listing of all the events that we’re going to be doing for the rest of this year, whether it’s going to be a live stream event for it, if we;re going to do on-site seminars – we’ll have those as well. So if you’d like to learn more about products, please feel free to go on those sites and then also they can always contact me directly here at Erchonia and number here at corporation is 888-242-0571, would be happy to set up in-person possible demonstration if you’re local or even as zoom meeting – happy to discuss it with you at any time.

Dr. Brandon Brock: And lastly, I believe that you guys if a doctor would have purchase a laser, you guys actually help with the launch of the product. Is that correct?

James Shank: We do. So with all our laser products and specifically these products in general, we do help with the launch of the products. You have a full support team that’s provided with it. You have Sarah Bell to help with marketing and our clinical educators, Greg Mermigas and Brittney WIlson. They’re hold your hand through the whole process. So they’ll do multiple trainings and also you’ll receive access to our marketing boarding portals that will have videos, brochures, banners, recorded templates that we use for our social media marketing that you’ve seen on Facebook or Instagram and we help customize some videos with you as well in the office.

So what we like to do is unlike some other companies who will take a machine in and bring it to you, drop it off and it’s kind of up to you to decide what to do with it from there – we hold your hand through the entire process and you have a clinical educator that works with you for the entire lifetime of the machine. So we’re there to make sure that not only do you have a great and very productive laser but you’ve very successful with it. So we take the personal and hands-on approach to make sure that you’re getting a valuable product and you’re a part of the team and part of the family here at Erchonia.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome. Yeah that’s got to feel for doctors, again kind of going back to what Dr. Brock had said, you know in terms of the investment you’re going to be hard pressed…especially. I like that comparison of like a lot of people think like franchises and stuff like that so often franchises, number one are extremely expensive and part of that is just with a lot of different franchises a lot of them are extremely expensive because there’s a known entity here. I think with this it’s very similar in that you get a lot of known entity with this. There’s not nearly as much of a gamble, you’ve got a proven path with nearly not a lot of the same downside that you get with that kind of conventional franchise models and so from a business standpoint. There’s just upside here with this which is really got to be exciting for doctors when they hear. So very very cool. Any final thoughts James or Dr. Brock in terms of Erchonia and weight loss?

Dr. Brandon Brock: No, I mean just if anybody you know gets an Emerald, we have a lot of paperwork and a lot of things that we can offer to kind of make it towards not so difficult and we’re always willing to share that information. You know you got the technical support, you got people giving you marketing, you know information and then we can really help out with the clinical information. Whether me with nutrition that goes along with it or paperwork that goes along with it or which labs we do and what they mean and how you use that we offer all that I know that I offer that to anybody that purchases an Emerald.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Very cool. Real quickly, what’s the distinction in terms of choosing between an Emerald and a Zerona in terms of that Emerald is specifically designated for medical clinics? Is that correct?

James Shank: Yeah so what the difference between the two systems – One of the FDA clearances of the Zerona was for a non-prescription system back in 2015 so anybody can offer that service currently with the Zerona Z6 Model. The Emerald Laser system with its FDA clearances in the ranges of 30 to 40 BMI for obesity will be more specific system with its wider range of applications so for medical type providers so it’s gonna be more specific to those types of doctors to where the Zerona is gonna be something to where anybody can have it so a lot of salons and spas and other businesses are doing that franchise type model to where the Emeralds can be very medical based.

Great thing I’d say about either product is they’re easy to implement. They’re very simple to set up, it’s completely hands off you set the laser, you set it up and the laser does the work for you. But as Dr. brock has mentioned, the Emerald will work in any type of facility or doctor’s office. Whether you want to do labs and go to the nth degree and analyze every little thing on it to make it more successful, it’s fantastic. You can as Dr. Brock mentioned on some of his results so you talk about from five to seventeen inches which is phenomenal and amazing. You know you can take a real in depth route approach or you can just set it up in your clinic and just treat whoever you want without doing. It can fit into any clinic and just treat whoever you want. It can fit into any office setting and that’s the beauty of it and there’s so many different things you could add to make it even more successful. No matter what that might be and that’s the support that Dr. Brock offers as well. So the last thing I say is it could be a fit for anybody and any type of office setting. It’s successful.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s exciting. Well Dr. Brock and James, thank you guys so much for taking time out of your schedule. We really appreciate it and hopefully this has been incredibly valuable for the doctor who have been listening. Exciting things are happening and I’m excited to see what transpires over the next year, two years, five years and beyond with what Erchonia, what they’re doing because things, there’s no signs of things slowing down any time soon. We appreciate you listening, make sure you share this with those that you feel could benefit your colleagues, Erchonia is doing some amazing things. We would encourage you to check out what they’re doing and we will talk to you guys on the next episode. Have a good one.

Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchnoia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.

Podcast Episode #8: Low Level Laser Therapy for Low Back Pain with Dr. Trevor Berry

On today’s episode we dig in deep on the subject of low level laser therapy for low back pain with Dr. Trevor Berry. Dr. Berry shares some incredible insights on low back pain, pain in general and the neurological basis for using lasers as part of any treatment protocol for patients struggling with low back pain. To learn more about Dr. Berry or to attend one of his upcoming trainings you can check out more here: https://azchironeuro.com/ or here:

https://www.erchonia.com/seminars/

Transcript:

Dr. Chad Woolner: All right everybody, welcome to the show. This is episode 8 of the laser light show and on today’s episode we have special guest Dr. Trevor Barry, he’s gonna be talking about low level laser therapy for back pain, so let’s get to it.

Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.

Dr. Chad Woolner: All right everybody, welcome to the show and a special welcome to Dr. Trevor Barry. Thank you so much for being here with us. Good to have you here.

Dr. Trevor Barry: My pleasure, absolute pleasure! Looking forward to it!

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah so maybe a good first place to start is just to tell us a little bit about yourself. I think this is the first time you and I have officially met ‘virtually’ , so fill us in, give us a quick snapshot of who you are, your kind of affiliation with Erchnoia and your story with low level lasers.

Dr. Trevor Barry: Yeah, sounds good. So I went to school at Parker in Dallas and I really got into neurology early on. I became a board certified diplomatic neurologist and then I kept branching out into functional meds that required a lot of work with an F&S. I’ve had some really good mentors out there that really brought me to become an integrative practitioner. You know coming at brain-based solutions for all kinds of complex, neurological conditions and early on in the laser introduction. If you will, I actually got into lasers as you know, it’s like doctors do for self-help stuff. I have really bad sciatica arthritis and my family and things like that but then it became a labor of love with regards to protecting my daughters. I have two daughters and their mom, my ex, has a severe genetic predilection for Alzheimer’s and so I was looking at ways that I could effectively protect them from neurodegenerative changes and it became very apparent about how low-level laser could be utilized in that basket, but as the research continues to expand upward. What about 11,000 papers now on peer-reviewed index literature on laser as you guys know it has become basically the most important mono therapy. I think positions can add to their practice and even patients alike. I’m having tons of patients buy lasers for their own use at home so the main thing for me that as I drove into the literature became very apparent that as all the good things lasers could do for the brain and body. There was really once caveat of this almost too good to be true mindset and that was that you needed to have the right dose and as a brain based guy, it was very obvious that all the literature supports you wanted to be below typically no more than 13 joules per centimeter squared to the central nervous system. So, I know that’s kind of great for most people but it just means that low level laser is the most important thing so when I was looking at devices, I was going to shine on my daughter’s brains to protect, absolutely. So we started to cultivate a relationship and as they got to know what I did with all the neural based rehab and when not they said, hey we want to have you come speak and do some events and it just blossomed from there.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Actually, that’s amazing. How many seminars do you do for them?

Dr. Trevor Barry: I think this year I have about 18 events on my calendar so I think the most I’ve ever done is about 24, but with some of the changes with code and now what you need is that we’re actually doing a lot of streaming events worldwide now, so okay that gives you a lot of docs. You know, not wanting to travel because of safety issues or maybe can’t make a seminar, it allows them. Like, I just did one last week, an important one in Portland and Maine that we streamed worldwide so that’s awesome!

Dr. Andrew Wells: That’s amazing! Yeah, very cool. I’m really fascinated to hear what you’re doing with your daughters because I think having a proactive approach to preventing severe and deadly neurodegenerative conditions is really fascinating so that’s just for listeners but that’s in two more episodes. That’s episode number 10. I can’t wait to dive into that, but we wanted to focus today on back pain, lower back pain, even neck pain, and really help us understand the mechanism of action and how not only from a physiological way what low level laser technology is doing for back pain but also you’re a doc in the trenches. You’re seeing patients, you’re using this in your clinic, we really wanted to give our listeners some real life applications for how they use this to help more people in their clinic.

Dr. Trevor Barry: Perfect.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Can I selfishly interject real quick because I’m gonna put a point on this real quick that I think might steer this conversation in an interesting way. So, I live in Idaho, my parents live in Salem, Portland Oregon, we’ll just call it Portland area for the sake of simplicity. My mother has been dealing with back pain for the past, I don’t know for three or four months, really debilitating back pain. She’s been to a chiropractor. Had a decent experience there. Actually, I should say she’s been to two chiropractors. One, not a great experience. The other, decent experience. She’s been to PT. She’s done acupuncture, gotten some relief from acupuncture but still struggling with it right. My daughter is going to be visiting them and obviously you understand the inherent challenge that I’m facing. The dilemma. I feel like we’ve got cool stuff that we can do at our clinic including lasers but we’re gonna be visiting them briefly and then they’re gonna be coming and bringing my daughter back this summer and I’m gonna have a span of four or five days, maybe a little bit more to do some cool things with these Erchonia lasers. So I’m gonna say let’s talk about back pain, but maybe at some point weave it into terms like okay, you got four. They work with the patient but share with us exactly what his question was but somewhere somehow weave into it like if you were me and your mom was there with you. What would do for her back pain in that situation? Alright go!

Dr. Trevor Barry: I think one of the interesting things with lasers is that there’s a cumulative effect and because their colony devices are so safe and well underneath that safety zone of laser therapy. For example, my last patient that just walked out here flew to see me from Wisconsin. So, she flew in for the week doing intense therapy. We saw her with a laser three times a day so you can actually stack your therapies and do more than one in one visit on a day to day basis. I take my lasers home every night and I work on myself, my family members, things like that. So, it is something that you can safely get you know exposure every day when we did the low backs that I was the principal investigator of the chronic back study and we did eight visits now that was spread out over a couple of weeks, but it’s perfectly fine, safe, and effective to do lasers in a stack way like that. Either once a day or a couple of times a day, especially the right dose involved and what I thought was interesting in the field of neurology is that when you look at what makes pain chronic you know it’s one thing to treat acute, you know the research is very robust on acute injuries brain strains, disc, whatever the sources, but the case we were using for the study was a minimum. There are certain amounts of time to be chronic, over a three month period then it’s not longer just the tissue damage in the inflammation. At that point, you start to get this whole reorganization of the peripheral and a central nervous system to adapt to that and so that was the interesting thing to be able to overcome that with laser just local to the tissue was a big thing, and I’ll get into the neurology of pain and how it changes brain activity and a whole wide dynamic range neurons that the spinal cord level things like that. So, let’s just go back to the initial understanding of how pain works. So, your patients are gonna have maybe a band life and twist or some common injury like that. Just knowing back pain, by the way, is the most common form of pain according to the NIH (National Institute of Health). You guys have seen the studies about how over 80% of people at any given time will experience low back pain over 20% it will be chronic so it’s more than months on end and so what you have to look at is what happens first and are you supposed to have this inflammatory response and that inflammation? There’s all these things like calcetone and gene related peptide and substance P and B [INAUDIBLE] all these chemicals and they called it inflammation soup. One of the interesting things that the research is showing is part of that inflammation soup, is it actually an immune mediated response you’re actually even getting in a disc injury or a muscle pair or something like that you actually get your neutrophils and like your leukocytes come into the area too approach it and that does so through inflammatory my goals called things like the interlukes like you may have heard the term inner luke and six. For example, this is a big player in both acute inflammation but also chronic pain because one of the things where modalities fail or even actually make that pain situation worse is when you shut off certain inflammatory cascade the classic example of this and I was just reading a research paper this morning in Canada saying that if you use NSAIDs like Advil and Aleve. All you’re doing is shutting off that Cox 2 pathway across the gland and E2, but the inner luke is like interleukin 6 are still allowed to infiltrate the area and in doing so that causes scar tissue by roses adhesions and chronic pain, inflammation, cascades. So, actually taking NSAIDs like that can actually make your risk of getting chronic pain even worse if you do it in acute and that’s completely against the paradigm of what most patients and doctors alike. Getting on Advil or some sort of pharmacology could actually be doing the patient more harm than good.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Can I interject real quick, is that because of the Cox enzymes not in as part of the equation and now the interleukins like there’s an imbalance there in terms of that inflammatory cascade is that what you’re saying exactly you need in modalities?

Dr. Trevor Barry: They’re actually going to need inflammation. I want doctors and patients alike to know we need information whether it’s with pathogens, whether with acute injury because we have to fight off the bad guys, right? You know if you have a cut you need that inflammation to make sure you don’t get a septic infection or something like that, but what most patients suffer from, especially chronic pain, is that and long hauler whatever like chronic condition of pathogens or injuries that is the pain doesn’t get shut off properly. So what you need and what this is one of the amazing things about lasers, especially red lasers is what research has shown. They will shut off the Cox 2 system like an Advil. Will they shut off inner Luke and 6 interlude and 1b interlude and 17 interleukin 23 TNF alpha. So, all these inflammation chemicals as part of that inflammation soup will dial down and actually start to regulate that and the main immune part. The main part of the immune system is called the T-Rex system and that you use the compounds like TGF, beta and Interleukin and 10 to actually tell the immune system, okay, you did your job now come back to the station because you’ve already done everything we need you to put out that fire. So, this is how we do modalities, in that there are certain nutrients that will help do that, but low level lasers do all of that for you. It’ll actually inhibit the inflammatory cascade and promote immuno-resolution like interlude and TGF beta and the inflammatory response. Okay, you can calm down now and turn down the dial so that really comes into play on more of the local tissue exposure. Another interesting topic about chronic pain is that we have these types of nauseous stuff there that are like lightly myelinated, they calm free nerves and they’re ubiquitous throughout the entire body and they’re all over. They’re always monitoring those pains and inflammation mechanisms to tell you, hey somethings wrong here. Their job is to tell you something’s wrong, quit loading the disc, that kind of stuff so what we’re also finding with chronic pain is actually that’s the first stage of what we call the peripheral pain. Synthesization is all those channels that are taking those inflammatory soup chemicals in and tell you that something’s wrong. Some of them are called TRPV TRPM acid sensitizing channels. All these channels you have all over those receptors that are taking in that inflammation you want to use products that actually can lay all those channels in chronic pain. Cannabinoids do a good job like when you hear about tropical CBD for example, that does a good job of downrigging regulating. There’s another topical product one of my colleagues did that does a really good job of down-regulating all that well. Once again, lasers have been shown to actually be able to turn off all those channels because some of them only get turned off by heat products, you know. Cap station products hot pack things like that. You know your menthol products and cold facts but the big one that gets missed is the acidizing channel and if you can make that area more alkaline and turn off that asick receptor. That’s a home run for the peripheral sensitization that lasers will do and because those fibers are typically very superficial you don’t like, I’ll go into the depth penetration when we talk about the brains. But one of the most overstated things in laser physiology is the depth of penetration. It’s a dynamic energy thing, but most of your pain stuff is superficially medicated anyway. So, it’s not about, does the laser get to the disc? does it get to wherever the deep tissue is? I’m not saying the lasers don’t do that, but that is probably the most overstated thing and laser physiology both for neurology and pain. So, then let’s say we’re at the peripheral part of the chronic pain is being able to down regulate all that stuff. That’s what I love about Erchonia effects because not only do they have the line being first generation that patented landed line will cover more surface area, but those scanning diodes that we use the FX 635 in the chronic back study and it’s all those colonial nerves and things like that all around that gluten sacral area that you need to be able to bathe with that laser light to down regulate and turn off that dial. Well, that FX35 in the new 405 does exactly that, it covers all that surface area that you need so your staff can set it and forget it like when we did our laser study. We didn’t move the laser around just there in those key spots in the low back and in that gluteal trochanteric area.

Dr. Andrew Wells: I want to interject here for a couple seconds. Yeah, does that need to be directly on skin? Can it be done through clothes if it’s close? Let us know how that happens.

Dr. Trevor Barry: Great question. So, I like the analogy that it’s a very polarizing topic in laser therapy.They’ll say, don’t you dare try and go through clothes, and that kind of thing. One of the first studies I ever asked the company to do was take their basic handheld. They’re basic accelerated lasers, the red laser 7.5 milliwatt dies. They said show me a transcranial study and I’ll get more into that in the next podcast but they showed in real time, in functioning imaging you study there. They’re 7.5 million watt diodes penetrating the skull, the lasers will literally penetrate the skull, so you know one of the take-up points. Yes, it’ll go through clothes. I have very pragmatic conversations with my doctors and say, listen, I have dark clothes like dark blue things like that and get directly on the skin. You might as well try and get the optimal absorption possible. It will go through clothes but it’s kind of like a mesh fence or something if I’m shooting the light through there. Some of the fence will absorb the laser energy, but most of it’s getting through the fence right and getting to the tissue but why not try and get directly on the skin if it’s possible, if that’s available you can do it modestly. That’s always the go-to on that other cool thing you bring up.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, good point.

Dr. Trevor Barry: That is because these lasers are non-thermal. They’re not creating a heat load like high-powered. Lasers you know a lot of your patients have those tattoos on the low back there and most light devices are higher, powered 3bs and force you can’t shine over a tattoo because you’ll burn the patient. With Erchonia products, you can go directly over a tattoo and not have any issues with it and then we can get more into things like retinal exposure and things like that, but that’s for different conversations. So, yeah, to your point, if you can get directly on the skin, well go for it. If not, then don’t worry you’re still gonna get an absorbent.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome. Yeah, the thought I had when you originally talked about this was you originally started talking about the clocks too inhibiting from the insides. My mind couldn’t help but think that was kind of part of the problem that we ran into with the whole celebrex situation when they started kind of trying to monkey around with the selective. You know clocks inhibition with those and that was what led to. I just think sometimes in general this might sound like a gross oversimplification but sometimes when we start trying to monkey around with mother nature, we tend to screw things up pretty significantly and that’s one of the things that’s so cool about lasers. We’ve kind of talked about in the previous episode if there’s something so inherently natural about light. We get to step out of the sun. It’s inherently therapeutic, you know our body was meant to absorb that love of the light. It does wonderful things for us in terms of vitamin D and no doubt other things as well and so these lasers, there’s no downside to it. But, in terms of that, if I’m understanding correctly, what you’re basically saying is they’re finding that insides in a similar fashion. Will you start targeting and trying to monkey around with that inflammatory cascade by trying to do this sniper approach? It has unintended consequences associated with it.

Dr. Trevor Barry: You hit the nail on the head pretty much. It’s like even aspirin by itself is a fairly benign and yeah effective substance, but when bears couldn’t patent it so they had to put a man-made molecule to patent it and when they did so it started causing severe stomach aches and life-threatening bleeds like that so yeah you’re right. Anytime we attach something to a structure man-made synthetic, it usually messes with it. Same thing with neural chemistry. That’s another big thing once we start messing with our eyes and things like that and we wreak havoc in unintended consequences inside effects. So, I love your point like where we get so indoctrinated in the chemical model because of pharma and things like that in this country, but the other half of the equation we are energy beings. You know, our electrical communication or cellular system. Our nervous system is based on electrical communication. I’m not saying there’s not a chemical component to it, but the most underutilized thing in healthcare is energy. You know that with electrical activity we can get into quantum entanglement and quantum fields and that kind of stuff but getting proper laser energy and frequencies all that into the human body is an amazing thing. And, that’s why I told that even in pain suffering, maybe back pain or shoulder pain or something you can get effectiveness of lasers by shining the laser on the left knee, not even related to the shoulder angle, the injury and have the effective anti-inflammatory pain modulating and systemic effect with blood. You know mass in our systems, and things like that, and getting bigger models of quantum entanglements so there’s just something about getting proper light on and off a patient or even to your point of sunlight. You know, there are some pilots that showed getting red laser on diabetic neuropathies in cream cheese, magnesium, and vitamin D levels. Not even having anything to do with sun exposure, so it’s kind of neat to watch those kinds of things be affected by lasers and all your inflammatory cascades as well. Not like we’re talking about it but I always like when docs do free post inflammation marker studies with CRP and said rates and you know things like that because you’ll see amazing results with your lasers about down regulating systemic inflammation just by getting lasers that are gut-based. Lasers like Erchonia for body contouring or the pain lasers or nervous system-based stuff. So, a good thing to do with doctors is look at lipid panels, look at inflammation panels, and things like that and do free post objective measures. Obviously, it’s about making the patients feel better and back to quality of life like, hey I can pick up my grandkid again or hey, I can play golf again. That’s number one to us. Each study physiology and neurology, we like seeing hey look at your CRP went down 50% because of your laser treatment. So, just something to put out there for the docs. But you know, back to the application that most of your patients like when we did the low back study with the FX635. It was set and forget it [INAUDIBLE]. And then I start teaching the upstream model of laser application because then you get into what are the other areas that you can inhibit pain because pain as we talked about takes on a central reorganization where your spinal cord pathways start to change, your brain pathways start to change, your brainstempathic, all that change to adapt. We need that when we’re learning a new golf swing or learning a new language or whatever we want with those adaptive changes. Unfortunately, it works that way with any neurological stimulus. So, what your nervous system is doing well you’re gonna be in chronic pain, I’m going to adapt to it and become more efficient at it. So, the next big project I talk about is getting upstream and is this a good clinical gem? What are called these wide dynamic range in neurons in the dorsal horn of your spinal cord so painful pain comes in and its job is to basically, in simple terms, crank up the dial and say hey, you’re in pain you need to get rid of this. I’m gonna make sure you know about this. I got that dial and started to really get the central reorganization. That’s what the dorsal horn spinal cord change is actually based on glutamate receptors that’s your excitatory neurotransmitter and you have this glute five receptor at that wide dynamic range they’re on that’s telling it to become more receptive or responsive to it. Well one interesting research that we came across showed that violet laser 405 nanometer, that violet spectrum, actually turns down that glutamate receptor at the spinal cord level so that’s why you’re seeing a nice cherry on top like most of the studies are based on pain. But, you’re also seeing studies that’s a violet-red combination so a lot of the….

Dr. Chad Woolner: Let me interrupt real quick there because I’m recalling our neurophysiology days. Dr. Gillett who taught our neurophysiology. He was a really renowned neurophysiologist but the one thing I remember, and I don’t remember much, but I do remember him teaching what caused cells that fire together wire together, right? That’s what literally glued those cells together, and so if I’m hearing what you’re saying correctly, the violet will prevent the wiring together, or at least help to ratchet that down so that it doesn’t become an acute potential situation doesn’t become chronic or a chronic situation. Maybe potentially, I don’t know what the right terminology is but preventing that breaking up that pattern in essence is a good way of life.

Dr. Trevor Barry: That’s well said, so just taking that glutamate dial that was in your nervous system is cranking others saying no nothell breaks. Let’s turn that back down and regulate that so it’s not overactive so when I use my violet-red combo, I out the violet part of the beam right on the spinal cord and I out the red on the nerve roots adjacent to it so that you can get an effective treatment and I don’t want the darkening. You know violet is one that most doctors are the violet-red combo. I just did that event. I think I had 20 something darker. I violet-red laser in my last event in Portland, Main there because if you’re gonna laser like they did the neck and shoulder study that one of your documents had talked about, one treatment of violet-red was over 30% reduction in visual. In visuals, the 30 point reduction visual analog scale and improved range of motion and pain two days later just with one treatment of the violet-red for neck and shoulders so that’s a cherry on top. As far as adding you know when we’re always trying to up our game and level up with our treatments and so yes, to your point, it will help create that like down regulating, calm the glutamate system down like, hey don’t fire too hard now. You’re talking about Peter Gillette, that was his name.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yes, yes yes yes.

Dr. Trevor Barry: You know he’s from Canada. All the good docs come from there, I grew up in Calgary Alberta. So as we continue to swim upstream another bigger take on pain management is Vagus nerve stimulation. The Vagus nerve is a game changer used in epilepsy and neurodegeneration traumatic brain injury cancers, you know Vagus nerve stimulation is an absolute game changer for patients that have brain gut axis leaky barrier systems that are involved. And that’s something we should probably try and catch at the end is systemic inflammation adding to chronic pain sufferers like back pain. It would not because if you can address those systemic inflammatory things like leaky gut with bagel nerve stimulation, you’ve got another layer of a home run here well, just with pain and the seamy and systemic and inflammation studies show laser well. We did studies that hate our heart rate variability lasering the Vagus nerve causing parasympathetic promotion motion so we’re using that upstream. Hey, if your set and forget it approach doesn’t quite get your targeted things then we go up to the spinal cord nerve root. Then we go to Vagus nerve stimulation. Then we go to the parietal lobe for some metatropic reorganization and then we even get into the limbic responses of pain like when they talk about cognitive behavioral therapies. Like patients develop a fear and emotional response and all those things with pain. You can actually use your lasers to down regulate that default mode network and salience, so they’re not not having as much of that by fight or flight limbic like just thought of them sitting down or bending gets their heart rate up and you get them like intense and things like that, so we actually use lasers all the way upstream to affect central mechanisms just as well as we do the set it and forget it to the local tissue.

Dr. Andrew Wells: So what happens, Dr. Barry, if you started with, let’s say a patient came with lower back pain. What if you started with the central nervous system, started with the brain and worked backward. Have you ever tried that?

Dr. Trevor Barry: Now you’re speaking my language my friend. So, I teach the upstream approach, my favorite being a brain neuro guy. I actually start with your downstream approach so another good clinical nugget is what would they say they’ve got? Let’s say shoulder pain. You know what, let’s talk about right SI pain. For example, one of the things I’ll start with is, I actually laser the parietal lobe to start to downregulate the gliosis that’s happening, the reorganization of the things help get the system to a higher level of function at the same time. Have your docs do vibration over the target tissue so we use like their cognitive percussor. For example, that’s a really good vibration device because that starts to help remap and get the nerve. Say you’ve had chronic pain and you’re not right, outside joints are not moving properly and things like that, your parietal lobe. You’re still out of topic. The cortex will start to reorganize to adapt to this as well. You know if you’re not gonna move right or not gonna move at all. I’m just gonna adapt to that and change my firing pattern up here. So what we do is, we do vibration on the local tissue. Whether it’s an elbow, a shoulder and SI joint blue, whatever and laser the parietal, but at the same time start to tell the brain, wait a minute here, I forgot about that joint. It’s been stuck for so long or whatever, I need to start paying attention to that again. Then what we do is laser the cerebellum and start to move the joint complex like in a complex pattern for example and start to reorganize the firing where the brain can start to properly localize and coordinate the proper step of feedback or the position sense where it is in space. I think, oh, I forgot that the joint can move. I forgot it can move like that. I forgot. It’s best to move like that and so you start taking that downstream approach of reorganizing and waking the brain up basically and then at the end you laser the target tissue. The SI joint, the shoulder, the elbow, or whatever it is, and I love that that’s actually my go-to right out of the gate, but because not a lot of docs do that. You know doctors treat a lot of brain-based stuff, but you know as a functional neurologist, it was not. We also take a brain-centric approach first and swim downstream so that way you said is actually brilliant. It’s such a good clinical way.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I was gonna ask you real quick. Sorry, didn’t you say stimulating the Vagus straight on the neck side of the neck mastoid area? Where do you typically target that?

Dr. Trevor Barry: Great question, so one collection was actually the one that did that pilot study with you and what we do is a heart rate variability testing in our office and that’s one of your most objective biomarkers: a person, pathetic and sympathetic function and things like that. So, what he did in real time was put the red laser just right on the SPM for 10 minutes and showed that with the red laser you increased parasympathetic high frequency activity of heart rate variability. Violet laser actually promoted sympathetic toning but that was just shining it where the vagus nerve runs right along the sternocleidomastoid. Now, I teach and some of the other docs teach, I’m fine with doing brains exposure and then wrapping around to the SDM and then just following that down and one of the big things I teach is, you’ll see, I laser right over the gut because as you know the Vagus, that goes all the way down to control like what way down this planet, down in that area and then the bottom half gets taken over by the nerve-wire gentees. You’re pelvic flight. Yeah, that’s two, three, four stuff for the autonomic parasympathetic down there. So, we love to blanket the whole area, but for the sake of simplicity for your listeners, they did it right on the STM. That was it for 10 minutes. You can even do shorter treatment times and have good objective outcomes. But, I do a couple minutes on the STM, a couple minutes right over the gut and for good measure, I’ll actually vibrate the gut too. I’ll actually do a mechanical vibration for those special visual aprons and that is a fair component of vehicle nurse simulation as well. Obviously I’ve done all my palpitation and oscillation. Make sure there’s no contraindications to that so you can laser right on the STM. You can follow the whole pathway from the brainstem, go right over the gut and there’s even branches like when you laser the prefrontal cortex that will actually promote parasympathetic modulation. When there’s an irregular brand, it goes to the ear. You can do that like a lot of acupuncturists happen to do in different modalities, so we’ll actually even laser right on the irregular brand. We’ll go back to the throat stuff for all [INAUDIBLE] toning and palpables and what have you, but yes for simplicity go right on the STM.

Dr. Andrew Wells: What it won’t see, the doctor, doesn’t have a diplomatic neurology that may be what we’re talking about here. Scary reminders of board review, like yeah, they’re thinking, Hey! This sounds amazing! This sounds like an amazing tool, a powerful tool that they can use but they don’t remember these nerve pathways. This may sound a little foreign to them, what would you say to adapt like that?

Dr. Trevor Barry: So, going right into it, right into the narrow side? I think one of the things I’ll say in the first hour of my seminars is all right everyone, grab your laser, then you turn it on, yes it’s on. Can you point to the prefrontal cortex? They all point right above. They’re in there for it. Can you point to you? Let’s go to bonus questions. Can you point to your right prefrontal cortex? I’ll move their hand over one inch, turn the laser on, and point it right out your right prefrontal cortex, can you hold it there? I said congratulations, now you’re all board certified neurologists because if you can just know basic anatomy, I know where the spinal climate masturbate is, I know that the Vagus runs right there. I know I can just point and that I won’t forget it. Keep it simple. Like, I even teach one master brain frequency setting for the central nervous system that we’ll get into on the next podcast but so it’s as simple as that then with the peripheral tissue. Most of the candidates that are going to get laser it’s there. You don’t have to do anything, most of your patients are going to respond to just getting the laser on the left knee, set it and forget it. Your staff does it. All they had to know was okay, there’s my pain setting. It’s all pre-programmed in the laser, you hit one button and you put the stand right there or the FX right there, you set it and forget it. All done advanced neural upstream stuff is just bonus material so it’s why I don’t want doctors to get you know, paralysis by analysis kind of thing. I want them to just say, hey the brain application is just the cherry on top. If you know where the parietal lobe is approximately and get the laser up there . That’s all you need to know, so you don’t have to worry about getting two technical knowledge. You know you’ve got that ridiculous little system and vestibules final output that’s causing that. Don’t worry about any of that. That’s why I teach the okay, get a couple minutes here, a couple minutes here, a couple minutes to the local tissue, a couple…. that’s all they got to know, you know.

Dr. Andrew Wells: How important is that there’s laser therapy in your arsenal of tools that you use for patients?

Dr. Trevor Barry: As far as mono therapies, that’s not my own brain thinking through a case is basically the number one tool in my office. I have nine lasers going in my office and they’re going constantly. There’s myself and a doctor team here at the office and we all have three FXs. We have that because we just got the new base station. We have the PL we have those they call. Our lasers are used by most of us, utilize modality in our office hands down. Not just in pain management, but in the neural realm as well.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s crazy. I was gonna say the thing that has gotten me so excited about this. I’ve been talking with the doc that I work with. Dr. Buddy Allen, and I was saying, you know for me, it’s almost as though because of the fact that there’s only upside to this, there’s literally no risk when you’re doing this. It opens the door to tremendous amounts of creativity and experimentation with each patient. In terms of figuring out what might work for them and that’s extremely liberating to us to know that like hey this is for this particular patient in this unique situation. We can experiment and really see what’s gonna work best for that patient, we can go off of best practices that we hear from docs like you, who’ve had a lot of experience, but then also incorporate just maybe perhaps even intuitive style thinking in terms of, maybe this will help and maybe it won’t do much but it certainly isn’t gonna make anything, you know, it’s not gonna create any negative side effects or create any problems there which is again very liberating for us in terms of thinking with patients.

Dr. Trevor Barry: True statement. If you’re using a laser, it’s almost like, I’m not gonna say like, it’s almost insatiable. It’s almost too good to be true. Yes, higher powered stuff you have to be very careful of contraindications and exceeding those and things like that, but they’re cognizant, Erchnoia, that’s why patients can use it and stuff. You can send it home with them and/or they but their own and I love what you said about how the art of what we do is just this, just like a Jedi lightsaber for any kind of healthcare provider. If you’re an immunologist you’re famous and pathogen based on things like that. If you’re applying pathology use red laser and nerve roots testing you can use violets since they actually expose weaknesses and muscle testing. If you’re doing whatever technique you’re using, you can use lasers as an adjunct to just work with the art let alone the neurology and physiology and I also like the idea of introducing lasers. One of the things I’ll say is, you’re treating low back pain well, what I’ll tell doctors as the patients. The patient bends for, say they’re stuck at 30 degrees flexion instead of doing anything else. One of the things I’ll do is say, get your laser on their back and expose them for a couple minutes. Almost like a diagnostic treatment and say okay, the patient now tries forward bening. Yeah, I haven’t touched them. You haven’t done any chiropractic magic, no manipulating like that you just do the laser and then retest then and then the patient does down to 90 degrees and they;re like what did you just do back there? That’s crazy just showing that light on me and now I can turn my head all the way to the writer now I can bend for now. I can raise my shoulder again that kind of stuff or with the neurology say to have a positive cerebellar like a dismantria you laser the cerebellum and also boom. They’re right fingers, the nose or something, patients are like what is that magic? I say it’s my Jedi lightsaber. You know it’s like I’ve just worked my laser magic but it is and I’m not. It’s not just like a smoking mirror thing. It goes to show a proof of concept and now the patient’s like I want that every treatment for treatment kind of thing because whatever you just did. I’m already noticing the difference so it’s a great point about the art of what we do and just implementing it in any style of practice.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s amazing.

Dr. Trevor Barry: If Erchnoia doesn’t model their next handheld unit directly off of the lightsaber I’m gonna be very disappointed. How cool would that be?

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, I love that analogy of the Jedi lightsaber because that’s what it sounds like.

Dr. Trevor Barry: Yeah, pretty much.

Dr. Andrew Wells: The doctor signature model is what that will be but I love it. [INAUDIBLE] Steve Shanks and Kevin on, we’ll hit him up. Next time I talk to Steve and Travis, I’ll ask them for that.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think that’s gonna be expensive for royalty being paid over to Disney for that one though. I think that’s the only problem. So, for those who are listening here and not seeing, we’re on the screen with Dr. Barry when he first walked in on the podcast he was sitting in a chair behind him with a t-shirt that said “I’m billing you for this” What does it say there? I’m charging you for this or I’ve been invoicing you? I really do for this conversation so I’m gonna take that very literally here because of my intro here in terms of my mom coming to visit in a few weeks. My mom’s gonna be here for four or five days. Tell me what you would do if you were in my situation in my shoes here because I’m gonna be sending this podcast literally as soon as we’re done over to my parents because I’ve been talking with them back and forth. What would you do? What would the frequency look like, just give us a quick rundown.

Dr. Trevor Barry: Yeah, so, I’m using my base pain setting you know like the 16 16 42 53 setting. I’ve been using it the first two days. What I would try to do is just set and forget it so that I would actually have her if she had access to do it twice a day. So, I do one morning, one afternoon for the first day and then do the same thing and see how she’s responding to that. Then, if we need to keep going further, if we want to get more extreme then you’re gonna start to swim upstream. So, then you’re gonna base your laser, maybe not just on her right or whatever the pain, but now we’re gonna go you know lumbar spine as you know right around L1 area right there. So, I go right on the lumbar spine and then angle the laser. If you’re using say the effects or we’re putting one beam on the lumbar spine, one a little bit more nerve distribution and then one beam right on that glues SI area. Just hypothetically, and then I’m gonna do that for a couple minutes. Then, I’m gonna do the Vagus nerve and then I’m doing applications of the parietal frontal. So, depending on which laser you have on tip. If I’m just using the handheld like this, I’ll do two minutes on each section, so I do two minutes of vagus two, two minutes parietal, two minutes free frontal. I’ll typically do, when we did the low back study just for those listening, we did 20 minutes with the FX 365, that’s as long as I’ve ever done with my Erchnoia devices. I’ll never go any further. Yeah people treat longer than that because of your safety in that format but very rarely. Do I find you ever have to go longer than that, so typically I may do the tissue exposure for 10. I do the nerve root spinal cord for two Vagus for two parietal for two three frontal for two…. and away she goes. So, do the first two days just the local tissue a couple times a day and then for the last couple days and you know I’m of the belief that everybody should be getting brain-based lasers for neuroprotective mechanisms prevention of dementia. I think sure, things like that we’re about to get into the next podcast so it’s why not expose them to that. Anyway you know, go right into the history of approach, just further neurological protective purposes let alone the pain medicine.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s awesome. And would you incorporate any of the vibration type stuff in conjunction with what you were talking about earlier?

Dr. Trevor Barry: I love the idea of stacking, booking modality to get that laser energy. That’s the most important thing, passive range of motion act, the range of motion electrical stem like ten units topicals vibration, any whatever modality you like to use in your office or whatever treatment you’re doing. If you can do that treatment while your lasering the body and brain and stuff you have a home run.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Awesome, and you include PEMF and that as well?

Dr. Trevor Barry: Yeah, that’s another one you know. I’ve only used rings and stuff, but I know like some of the better ones that are and I’m not knocking on me. I’m not here to you know be but you know those are less expensive. You get like beamers and bats and things like that. Yeah you can stack that with that or TMS to me even those kinds of things will ways or with QEG stuff like neural feedback. You see some really cool findings, watch when you laser the brain and you see the brain frequencies change with neural feedback in real time. We’ll talk about that next section though.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah yeah that’s amazing. So, any other questions Dr. Wells you got?

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, I think I have tons of questions but we’re coming up on like an hour and this has been an amazing episode and so Dr. Barry, we would love to have you on again at some point. We’re gonna have you on in a couple episodes for brain health, but really want to thank you for sharing your knowledge and yeah man. I’m so excited to hear what you’re doing not only for back pain but for central nervous system therapies like that’s incredible so as I’m listening to you, I’m getting a lot of hope for a lot of people and a lot of doctors and so yeah, thank you for sharing your wisdom with this and no doubt docs listening to this are gonna be encouraged that they have a really powerful tool they can use to help a wide rank of patients with a wide range of conditions. So, thank you so much.

Dr. Trevor Barry: Oh, you guys are doing a great job getting that message out there, the more people that you know this planet needs this help more than ever and so thank you guys both for sharing such a great platform this is. It’s really an honor to be here.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, you bet. I was gonna say in closing, you know the one thing that really shines through is your passion. You can tell that this is a topic that you really genuinely are passionate about and so it makes it so easy and enjoyable. I’m really looking forward to docs getting a chance to listen to this episode because I think one of two things is going to happen; they’re gonna have jaws dropped or they’re gonna be copiously like scribbling binders, full of notes here in terms of what they’re hearing and learning which is again why I think this is gonna be great. You’ll be a great sub and guest hopefully multiple times over this podcast. Hopefully this is the first of many many wonderful interviews that we get the privilege and honor of having you on so thank you again for your time. We appreciate you. And, for the docs listening, we hope that this has been immensely valuable for you. If you’re thinking of patients that can benefit from this, reach out to Dr. Berry and Erchnoia if you want more information there, I know I’m probably gonna be one of your first people signing up for whatever your class is. I’m definitely dying to get that so for docs who are already there like ok Dr. Barry’s awesome, I want to go to one of his classes. Where would you recommend they go? How can they connect with you?

Dr. Trevor Barry: Yeah, the best way is through the Erchonia website if they go to it tells you how old I am. They have their events and you can drop down. They have all their events for the year listed or you can even click on my name and they’ll show you all my events. There’s even state stuff that’s not there like I’m doing Oklahoma. I’m doing Parker and Orlando this year. I’m doing a bunch of stuff there as well but if you got that the easiest way is to go to that website and then my clinic is AZCaironeuro.com. It’s AZCiaroneuro.com.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome, awesome! That’s very cool. I’m sure a log of docs are gonna be jumping on so that’s gonna be exciting. So docs, thanks for listening and sticking around because we’re gonna have another really awesome interview with Dr. Barry coming up here real soon, so you guys do not want to miss that. Hope you guys enjoyed it and we’ll talk to you guys on the next episode.

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