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Podcast Episode # 22: Late Night Discussion with Dr. Trevor Berry and Dr. Brandon Brock

laser light show

What happens when you invite Dr. Brock and Dr. Berry to talk about anything they want at 11:00 pm??? Join us for a stimulating discussion about integrative health, science, research, politics, and the future of health.



Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody, Dr. Chad Woolner here and this is episode 22 of the Laser Light Show, and on tonight’s episode we have with us our friends and special guests, Dr. Brandon Brock and Dr. Trevor Berry and we are going to be chatting with them. We’ve had a great day at the seminar here in Minnesota and so we’re going to spend some time chatting with them and it’s going to be a lot of fun. So let’s get started. 

Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.

All right, everybody. Welcome to the show. And welcome Dr. Trevor Berry and Dr. Brandon Brock. Great to be here.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Great to be here baby!

Dr. Chad Woolner: So do we need to give a disclaimer on this episode here, gentlemen?

Dr. Trevor Berry: Well, we have lectured for about 12 hours today, but let’s just keep on rolling. Keep the momentum going.

Dr. Brandon Brock: We know the rules. Keep going on.

Dr. Andrew Wells: So here’s the deal on this episode, we’re gonna paint a picture here. It’s about 10 o’clock at night. And we just finished up the seminar. If you guys noticed there wasn’t a title to this episode. There’s no subject. This is a potpourri episode, whatever comes out of our mouths is going to be the episode. So we have no plan here. And I also want to mention that there was…dinner was had, there may have been drinks at the dinner.

And so. So what you’re gonna get this episode is some truth mixed in with some truth serum. That’s right, and we’ll see what comes out. So hopefully, this will be a good episode.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, yes unscripted. So how was the seminar? According to you gentlemen, well received?

Dr. Trevor Berry: It was everything we could have hoped for because we pack so much information. When we’re streaming it’s a whole different of, you know, medium of timeline and audience. And we had, you know, 150 online doctors, but when you have that message that we’re trying to bring it, it’s you know it, it translates to all different kinds of providers. It’s good for the chiropractic community. It’s good for the medical community, the integrative practitioners. So hopefully it was well received. We got some good feedback today, and we had a lot of fun, most importantly.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  It was ironic, because right next door to us there was a Crohn’s Foundation medical seminar. And it was hilarious because they had all their cake and candies and cookies and junk food there. And, and their seminar lasted all of, maybe like two or three hours, it seemed like they were like.

Dr. Trevor Berry: They were gone.

Dr. Brandon Brock: They cut out like diarrhea. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: So I thought that was hilarious because the drug companies were like, “Okay, here we go, here are the latest and greatest drugs, start prescribing. There you guys go.” And that was the end of it. Meanwhile, we’re still going on. We got a whole other day ahead of us tomorrow. And yeah, that was, that was kind of funny. Ironic. Next door to us.

Dr. Brandon Brock:  Ironic. I mean, we talked about…Dr. Berry and I lecturing and together, here’s the greatest really part of it. On improv, we’re sign languaging to each other of what to do, how to do it, the content we’re going over. And it just works out in a beautiful flow. It’s not overlapping. It’s not redundancy, it’s just a continuation of what we’re doing. And it’s not a lot of pre meditative stuff. It’s just a beautiful flow of I guess experiences though you would say.

Dr. Trevor Berry: When we teach the how we practice and the great vendors and companies we work with, like you guys, it flows naturally, you know. It doesn’t take…you know, we can improv, we can pivot, we can do all the things we can yell across to our colitis people about taking vitamin D. I don’t know if they heard me, but I screamed at the top of my lungs, how important it was. 

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah he was going for it.

Dr. Trevor Berry: But it was a great day and we appreciate SFM for being here because you guys are such an integral part about you know, trying to take that message and integrate it into a practice where doctors aren’t always comfortable with taking that full neurointegrative approach, but you guys do such a good job of bringing that to the field and natural translation to allow them to do it on Monday morning.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, we appreciate that. How long have you guys been teaching together like this in this team format fashion?

Dr. Brandon Brock: We’ve known each other for over a decade, I mean, but teaching together, I guess what about three years but you know, what’s funny is, we never really had to sit down and plan a whole lot of stuff, we just got our material, we sat down, and it just, it just kind of flowed. It was like a jam session. So I think that’s the best part of it. I mean, you know, when you’ve been lecturing for 20 years, and you know, kind of the people that you’re around, when you get to be with somebody that just can gel with you, and support you, and uplift you. And you don’t have to do a ton of like, really ritualistic planning. It is super. I mean, you leave from the seminar, and you’re on a high and not a low. And only that you feel like that you fulfilled all the cracks and crevices that people needed in order to get the information that they deserve. And, and I…just I don’t know, I just feel like there’s really like people like, of all the people on the earth, Trevor, Dr. Berry is one of the few that can do that. Or we can do that with each other. We just fill those cracks. And so it’s just really a natural kind of process.

Dr. Chad Woolner: It really is. I’ll be honest, it’s really impressive to hear both of you guys speak because you guys…it’s obvious that you cover a really, a huge breadth of information consistently. There’s not a whole lot that, from what I could see that really would catch you guys by surprise or anything in terms of questions that were asked in terms of pathways, in terms of all these different things. And it’s pretty important. seriously it’s impressive to see that because you guys really have a very…because, you Dr. Barry, you know, as a neurologist, you’re talking one minute neurology, than the next minute you’re talking, you know gastroenterology the next minute you’re talking, you know, in terms of…

Dr. Brandon Brock: …immunology? 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  Yeah. 

Dr. Andrew Wells: It’s very conversational too. Just kind of for both of you, kind of rolls off your brain, it’s amazing that you guys are very conversational about topics that most doctors I don’t think understand at a very surface level.

Dr. Brandon Brock: We practice in front of our animals a lot.

Dr. Trevor Berry: But in all sincerity, like we…Dr. Brock and I, love to teach how we practice. You know, we, we want doctors to be empowered to get out of their comfort zone, for lack of a better term where…you know, we all have our specialties, we all have our niches, but there’s so much more that the integrative community can offer, the chiropractic community can offer. 

We are wellness practitioners, we do it better than anyone on the planet. So why not get out of the comfort zone of just…and that’s not minimizing pain management, and that’s not minimizing some of the common conditions. But if we can start running labs and start doing…you know, integrative therapies and immunology, and leaky gut, and leaky gut, all those things we talked about today is that there’s no better group than your audience to handle and address those things. 

So what Dr. Brock and I feel like is…that we want to empower those doctors and just give them even some stepping stones to get out of that comfort zone so that they’ll start running labs not just on their patients, but on themselves, on their family members, things like that. And when they do that, and they start to develop that confidence in those systems, then the way we can take that to the patient base, we’re going to affect changes in the neurodegenerative community in the you know, the autoimmune community and stuff that nobody else is doing on the planet. And so that’s what that’s what drives us. That’s what our passion is.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, I mean, we were doing depth of practitioner development. I mean, when you look at this, it’s an integrative practitioner. I mean, there’s so many, you know, titles that are put on people to practice in health care, there’s a functional neurologist, there’s a functional medicine. We’re really just trying to say, look, you know, people come in with so many different problems that you really, it’s difficult to identify as one person that can identify as somebody that will help that one person. 

We’re just integrative, whatever you got going on, we want you to have at least a skill set to be able to deal with that issue. And there’s a little bit of cognitive dissonance that has gone into all of healthcare, meaning, if you’re in the medical system, you have to fit into that, if you’re in the chiropractic system, you have to fit into that if you’re in the functional medicine system. 

And we’re kind of trying to break that paradigm I think that we would say and it’s like this, they’re all of them belong there. Just which portion do you belong in? And what is going to work? And it’s so foreign to some people who…their entire educational identity lives in that system. So if you break it, you just become some sort of an outcast. And it, we’re both this. We’re outcasts, but we’re actually in-cast. In other words, we are bringing the systems together, despite what people…their leaders and those individual systems think. And we’ve been around long enough, and we’re like, “You know what I really don’t, I really don’t care a whole lot about what people think we’re just going to bring this together so that the people who are learning from us can actually go away with what they need to do.” And that’s why I love working with Dr. Berry, because we have the same philosophical and theoretical underpinnings of what we’re doing.

Dr. Trevor Berry: And were founded on the basics of the chiropractic education, the neurology. Yeah, that’s, that’s our underpinnings, but you know, it, it allows us to have that foundation to jump off of that and go into, “Hey, chiropractors can be doing labs, they can be doing laser, they can be doing all the things that we teach.”

Because it really is based on the platforms that we’re taught from. It’s brain based, neurologically based stuff because everything comes back to neurological integration, neurological parameters, and there’s nobody better on the planet to deal with that than the chiropractic community. But what we know now, this is not undermining the chiropractic adjustment. That’s the most powerful neurological tool we have in our armament. But why not take that foundation and build from it, you know, just branch from it like a beautiful tree like a beautiful bonsai tree, and we just keep pruning and clipping and getting it and there’s always that evolution of our understanding. And you know, I daresay D.D. and B.J. (Daniel David Palmer and B.J. Palmer – Ed), if they were alive today, they would want to be, they were pioneers of this stuff, they were so cutting edge, why not take those cutting edge concepts and bring it to what we know today based on research and clinical applications?

Dr. Chad Woolner: Absolutely. Yeah, I remember, when I finished chiropractic college, I remember going through a period…there was a period of about five years where I kind of went through this kind of identity crisis. I went to University of Western States, which not surprisingly, is very, they, they pride themselves on being very evidence based, for whatever that means, you know, what I mean, in terms of, you know, philosophically, whatever that means. And, and I remember when I started there, heavily buying into that kind of mindset and philosophy and almost, you know, to the, to the point of, if you didn’t go to an evidence, quote on quote, evidence based school, then you were somehow inferior in terms of that. And I very much thought that. And, and I also bought into this idea that somehow going to an evidence based school was going to give me a certain level of an edge, so to speak, in terms of relationship with medical counterparts. And then I remember getting out of school, and realizing that the medical community has their own ideas regarding chiropractic.

And typically, at best my experience was, they were indifferent towards us at best. And then all of a sudden, I’m like, “Oh, man, that so this isn’t what I was thinking it was going to be” and then not feeling like I fit in with kind of more of the principled or philosophically based chiropractors. And it wasn’t until I started working with chiropractors across the country, in a marketing capacity slash consulting capacity, that I started to get exposed to some of these doctors and I started to realize school mattered very little, right? In terms of…in terms of the quality and caliber of the doctor. 

What mattered more was, what I see with you guys, that’s very clearly reflected is, you see the end from the beginning, meaning it’s at the end of the day, it’s about the patient, right? The reason you guys are doing all the education that you’re doing isn’t so you can stack up a bunch of credentials, and, you know, alphabet soup behind your name, which is cool, that’s great, you know, but it’s very obvious that you’re doing these things with the end result in mind that…”Look, we need to have as many tools and skills and things that we can have at our disposal to help facilitate whatever is necessary to help the end patient.” And that’s I think what I’m hearing from you guys, which I could not agree more with, is I think that’s what hinders…at the end of the day the patient is when people get, so we Andrew and I we talk about this all the time, when docs get so deeply entrenched in their own dogma this to me, which was you that posed the question was “Which chiropractic technique is the best?”

Dr. Brandon Brock: Just lock the door, leave the room and watch- It’s like the, you know, the Will Ferrell movie with where he’s, you know, the Anchorman Ron Burgundy…the street fight!

Dr. Trevor Berry: What is best for the patient, right? And that’s all that matters. At the end of the day, Dr. Brock and I, and you guys as well, like it is about getting patient outcomes. However it gets there, whatever is the best medium you get there. That’s our duty and our job as healthcare providers. It’s not based on…”I’m an activator, expert…” That’s all great. We’d love every technique. Yes, chiropractic. Yeah, it is what’s going to get the patient the best result?

Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and interestingly enough to what you’re talking about there, it was this very kind of almost paradoxical thing where I remember finishing school, and feeling like the diversity within the profession. I could not stand it. I wanted standardization. You know what I mean? There needs to be standardization, because you just never know what you’re gonna get. 

Dr. Trevor Berry: Good luck. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But since then, I’ve come full circle. And that’s the very thing that I do love about the profession is because now, you know, there’s something for everybody. Do you know what I mean, in terms of these various techniques and approaches wouldn’t be around if they weren’t getting some sort of result for patients? You know?

Dr. Brandon Brock: I mean, I went on a 15 year full circle journey. Went through the medical cycle and came back to the chiropractic cycle. And people look at me like the sort of the Wesley Snipes Day Walker. I’m sort of, I’m sort of both I’m like, half-vampire, half-not. 

And it really is, it’s kind of a good thing. But it’s kind of also a double edged sword kind of thing. And I mean, you know, when you’re using medicine, and you love medicine and pharmacology, but you also love the philosophy and the belief of chiropractic, everybody sort of looks at you a little bit differently. But when we teach what we’re doing, we are looking again…I went on this full circle, but it’s no different than what Dr. Berry is talking about, we’re just looking at people and saying, what is going to work for somebody. I mean, so we’re not really a functional medicine, we’re not really functional neurology. We’re just sort of integrating ideas and trying to build on our experience. 

If you couple us together, we’ve got close to 20, you know, our 50 years of experience, right? So we’ve seen a few things during that time, we’ve been through a few things. We know a little bit about what people think. And what people…I guess the biggest thing is what people expect, man. And so people expect this, they don’t really care about what your title is, they care about one thing; “What are you gonna do?” 

And so we have to pull out all the stops. And we…and I think the biggest conviction that we have is we’re both clinicians, but honestly, we’re both teachers, right? We’re both lecturers, I’m gonna say teachers, because I think a lecturer is kind of looking for money. But we’re both teachers, we want the word to spread. So we want to sort of bring out the word of what it is that what we’re doing. And there’s no cognitive dissonance, we’re not putting ourselves in a box where we’re breaking out. And so we’re like, Hey, man, what works. I mean, we have acupuncture, we have nutrition, we have chiropractic, we have medicine. And it’s one of those things where it’s really an organic based growth, where we’re bringing a bunch of different things together. And it’s not that anybody’s a bad guy, or anybody’s the best guy. It’s what exactly is your patient paying for?

Dr. Andrew Wells: One of the things that we that you guys talked about today was, you go really deep into some of the research, but some of the, a lot of the clinical protocols you guys are talking about are pretty fundamental things. And  this is an Erchonia seminar that we’re teaching at, and this is an Erchonia podcast that we’re talking about, and we talked a lot about lasers having a lot of…a lot of applications across a lot of different parts of the body and a lot of physiology. We’re talking about bioenergetics and how lasers can pretty much be applied to anything that pharmacology can be applied to without the side effects. And so I’m kind of curious, are there any other parts of what you guys are doing that have as many applications as low level laser therapy?

Dr. Brandon Brock: No.

Dr. Trevor Berry: It, you know, you heard me use the example I called the Jedi lightsaber of any kind of practitioner or whether you do musculoskeletal pain management, orthopedics, whether you’re doing immunology, whether you’re doing brain based rehab; low level laser with the Erchonia product is the great equalizer. It can overcome, no matter what your training is, no matter what your background is, when you have one of those devices in your hand, it will create inevitably, by getting that light on the patient’s head on the patient’s body, it creates the healing process that no matter what your training is, what your background is, its intrinsic to that device. So that’s why in our audience today, we had medical doctors, we had natural paths, we had chiropractors, we had massage, like we have every specialty in our audience, because it brings something to the table for every type of specialty. And that’s the beauty of it is just by being able to turn it on and shine it on the brain, shine it on the knee, shine it on whatever body part you’re doing, you’re going to do things in your particular specialty, and get results that that maybe you couldn’t have before wouldn’t have before.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, medication is something we try to use in lieu of this. I mean, listen, we all try to use it, supplements as well, lifestyle. But when you got a laser that doesn’t have, like a lot of side effects, and believe me, I was the most critical person. I mean, in just looking at the research, Dr. Berry, now we’ve known each other for years. And so just talking, going back and forth, there’s a long process of getting together to where we were both on the same page, and saying, you know, look, I trust this to the point where I can actually talk about it, say something about it, and show that it has efficacy. And that’s a big word, efficacy. You know, so we both been doing neurological rehabilitation, or the Pedic types of, you know, modalities. And it’s like this, look, if you’re a medical practitioner, it fits in, if you’re an acupuncturist, it fits in, if you’re a chiropractor, it fits in. In other words, it’s not, it’s not a congregational type of thing, if you will, it’s really nondenominational. Okay. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Universal.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, it’s universal, it fits in. And, you know, the thing that we continuously say is, it is something…it’s a modality that fits in, but doesn’t have the dire consequential side effects of some of the things that we see. 

And by the way, we do all kinds of things that have the potential consequences that can happen with medicine or healthcare. You know, whether it be a surgical procedure or pharmacological procedure. I love lasers, because it’s either going to be good, or probably nothing. And so we see a lot of good. Patients like it, they don’t have to experience the downfall. And there’s research behind it. And really, the patients tell you, they feel better, it’s not you trying to convince them. So that’s what I love about it. And you know, some of the stuff that we do otherwise, you know, you go home at night worrying about it, I don’t go home at night worrying about a laser.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, that’s a nice feeling. I was gonna say, kind of tying this in a little bit…kind of roundabout. There’s some interesting stuff that…that’s happening in Idaho right now, legally, I don’t know if you guys have heard, but right now there’s this very big push, or at least seems like it’s been a big push. They’re changing the, they’ve essentially created a new naturopathic board. They’re waiting on the governor to appoint the board, but the law has been approved. And it was actually, the new bill was called SB 1330, for anybody who wants to Google it, or whatever. But the whole bill was primarily pushed through by a medical doctor. 

And basically, what he was wanting was kind of this new umbrella outside of the purview of the medical board. So that any and all practitioners who didn’t want to adhere to a rigid standard of care that was, that tends to be imposed in that medical world could basically flock too so to speak, to be able to use some of these kind of what would be considered in the medical model unconventional. You know, like laser therapy and things like that. As crazy as that is, right? And so what’s interesting, though, is what in essence it would do, and it’s getting a little bit of kickback from what I understand from kind of the quote on quote, conventional naturopaths, who have you know. Which is crazy to me, because you’ve got what like four naturopathic colleges now, I think Western University of Western States just started a naturopathic program. I heard that the National College in Portland is closing down. It may have already…have you guys heard that? I heard that. Yeah. Anyways. So anyway, anyhow. But the point is, you would think that this would be a… and this is the…I chatted with the medical doctor, who was championing this. And he was saying, he’s hoping that what this will be is kind of a standard that will then spread across the states. So that basically…because there’s always been this kind of within the chiropractic profession, this kind of if you want to call this stark divide, those who want to integrate more into the medical model of things, those who don’t and just want to completely…this seems like a very viable kind of happy medium compromise, if that’s what you want to call it. To where if you want to kind of practice more than model because what they did in Idaho, this bill was they he said he modeled directly off of the medical act so that this the scope of practice, in essence for the naturopaths would be virtually identical to a family practice physician.

Dr. Brandon Brock: I mean, think about it, it’ll open his empirical scope. So he, I mean, in a lot of states, there’s a very strict empirical code where you have to follow medical necessity, medical says, you know, the guidelines. And so, I mean, listen, naturopaths are some of the most trained practitioners really in the world. And they’re setting standards and all this stuff. So if they get brought into the scenario, it opens up the medical world to where you really can have sort of cross pollination between the two systems. 

When you’re looking to somebody that’s like this, “I’m not going to get the medical board to change, but what I can do is get another board created.” That’s, and I mean, I come from Texas, there’s I mean, we’re so far from like, you know, legitimizing naturopaths. But some of the best stuff I’ve ever learned is from naturopathic practitioners. I mean, I’m like a non-discriminating learner. I mean, it’s like, what if you can teach me something that’s good. And I can share it? Let’s do it. But when we come to state politics and legislation, this individual that has this medical practitioner that’s doing this, he’s got the right idea in mind, because he realizes he can’t probl… and I’m just speculating, but he can’t do it through his own board. So if there’s another board, and they kind of connect, it allows like this significant leeway to go into traject.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That was…the surprising thing to me was, there was a period of time, many years ago, where I had contemplated the idea of going to medical school, in conjunction. And it was the idea of it was very appealing at first because it was like my scope would open up. And then I’d have my chiropractic skills, as well as the medical. And I chatted with a friend of mine who had done just that. And I was like, oh, man, this is gonna be so cool. And I chatted with him on the phone. And, and all of a sudden, it opened my eyes. He’s…I’m like, “So what do you do now? Do you just have like this massive, you know, expanded scope?” And he’s like, “No.” He said, “I just basically do medicine. I check meds for old people, and sick people. And I refill prescriptions.” And I’m like, “So do you, like, adjust people?” He’s like “Every now and again, I might do a thoracic adjustment.”

Dr. Brandon Brock:  And it’s a lie. It’s extremely redundant.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, well, and he said, and that was the thing that was like eye opening to me. He’s like, he’s like, I was like, so you don’t like if somebody comes in with headache or neck pain, or you don’t adjust? He’s like, “Oh, heck no.” He said, “Because if heaven forbid, if something were to go wrong, you’re screwed.” 

Yeah. And then and I’m like, and all of a sudden, my eyes where I was like, that’s crazy. Because now all of a sudden, you’re held to a different standard in the sense not even…I don’t even say a higher standard, just a different standard. And that you’rem you’re set in a very rigid scope of practice. 

Chiropractors, if something were to adversely happen with a cervical adjustment, heaven forbid, or whatever. That’s the standard scope of practice, you’re expected to adjust people from head to toe, you know. And so to me, it was just like, so…anyways, long story short, I’d love to see more movements like this taking place. Because breaking down these barriers, and these walls, I’d love to see more things like lasers become more mainstream. And I feel like the way that that becomes more mainstream is it gets adopted by more than just chiropractors, you know,

Dr. Brandon Brock: If you’re a medical practitioner, and you’re a chiropractor, basically, what’s going to happen is this, you’re expected to be more medical over chiropractic. Which means this, you just don’t approve of it. I mean, I don’t know. I mean, I went through this loop, right. So you get…there’s no way you can get trained in the system and not start to appreciate medicine. I mean, I do. 

But what’s happened to me is, I’ve realized the limitations and strength of both systems. And you end up coming all the way back around to where you began. So you start out with, you know, Harvey, right, getting his hearing back and you go through chiropractic. And then you want to know, like, I gotta go through medicine. So I went through medicine, and you’re like, I gotta go through research, you go through research. And at the end of the day, you’re like, back at chiropractic. But you’re just enriched with what exactly it is that you have. And it’s like this; you’ve got all of it and you realize there’s a place for all of it, but you realize, chiropractic is actually a little bit of a free spot. It’s not this, if you deviate from the straight line, like in medicine, man, I gotta be honest with you, if you deviate from the straight line, you’ve deviated from the straight line.

Dr. Chad Woolner: You see that these past two years with how many doctors who spoke based on evidence and their conscience and they’ve gotten crucified. Previously…two years…if we were to go back in a time machine and say Dr. Peter McColl, everbody would be like, “Oh, he’s a genius.”  Dr. Robert Malone, and Brian Cole in Idaho, right? You talk about these guys two years ago, they were the best…brightest, you know, most decorated you know, most well researched, you know, respected. Now, all of a sudden they’re…they’re lunatics, their quacks their heritics… 

Dr. Trevor Berry: They’re stigmatized.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Totally. 

Dr. Brandon Brock: Listen, it’s that…that’s medicine. And you just, what you just described as this. You just mix scientific evidence with politics with big business, you know? And so yeah, it’s one of those things where it’s like, you can’t…you can’t have all of them. You’ve got to stay…and so what Dr. Berry and I tried to do is we just tried to stick with evidence and what works versus adhering to a system and so…

Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and that’s the thing that I can appreciate about you guys, is you’re not stuck in some closet, looking on, you know, PubMed all day long. You’re actually doing these things. And so when we say evidence, when you say evidence, and this has been one of my biggest contentions, especially with that term, quote unquote, evidence based medicine, that means one thing and one thing only it means peer reviewed studies, period. You know, and it’s not that I don’t appreciate that I do. You know, and I know you guys could talk circles around us in terms of that lingo and that language. 

However, you guys are also self aware enough, and intelligent enough and engaged enough to know that that’s only one piece of evidence. You know, that’s all great in theory…and I don’t want to say theory, right? Because, Dr. Berry, you’ve been doing these studies in your practice, like, so you’re in the trenches doing it, you’re not just, you know, again, looking at random data, that’s, that’s removed from you. And I know you are too as well. And so, you know, evidence also exists and you can’t, you can’t like…case in point for me is the big one that I always think about is; chiropractic adjustments and nocturnal enuresis, right? Everybody would say, the studies completely debunk that claim that chiropractic helps with nocturn…what do you say to the thousands, if not millions, of patients and their chiropractors who have experienced it firsthand? Like it’s all fake? It’s all placebo? Maybe I don’t know. But I mean, you can’t, you can’t dismiss that you can’t just be “It’s nonsense. It’s…” you know what I mean? Because the peer reviewed literature doesn’t support it. Well, okay. I understand that. But is there? Is there another form of evidence that…there clearly there is?

Dr. Brandon Brock: You know, the story of evidence based medicine? I mean, there was a couple, a married couple. And they were coming up with evidence based medicine, which was really supported, or it was a means of…to support what people were trying to progressively do. The medical establishment took it and used it as a way to limit what you can do, really. And this was a Harvard couple, of course, everything’s, you know, boils down to Harvard. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Do you know, you know, that doc in Texas, Dr. Ben? He, he was a big outspoken proponent at the beginning of the whole COVID thing. But he was talking about a study that was…he cited that there was this video that went fairly viral. And he said, when you look at like, the the paper that was written kind of defining what evidence based medicine was about. He said, there’s a hierarchy: patient values trump the peer reviewed literature. It goes in terms of the hierarchy, patient values first, then doctors personal clinical experience, then the papers. That’s like the hierarchy, you know, who I’m talking about, well, what’s his name?

Dr. Brandon Brock: I don’t know who it is. But it’s really interesting about this paper, these papers. And so when COVID and…without jumping in front of Dr. Berry, I mean, it’s really important that people kind of understand some of these statistics. Like, when you looked at the initial efficacy of like, let’s say vaccines and stuff like that, in regards to COVID. I mean, we started out with these things called RR values, the relative risk, and it’s very easy to calculate. But however, it has very little scientific value, because you can’t take an RR value, you have to turn it into an absolute value. And then you have to take that and statistically and mathematically, turn it into a need to vaccinate. And it’s really crazy that some of the greatest journals in the world published the RR values. And if you were to do that with any other journal on any other thing, you would get crucified, you can’t do it. 

And it was like this vaccine is like 95%, effective against COVID. And you’re like, What do you mean against COVID? Like, against catching it, getting it dying from it? There was these numbers getting thrown out the media. So we went back and we’re like, look at these are the RR values, we want the AR values in the N&X? Well, they wouldn’t give us the absolute values. So we had to go back and we had to find those and we had to then calculate the N&X and so what we found out is this, maybe some things are not as cracked up as they are made up to be in regards to their efficacy, okay? 

And it’s kind of a shame because you have to be somebody that can really actually go back and break down the stuff. And so we were told this is proprietary information, you can’t get an AR. For the like the New England Journal of Medicine or some other journal to say something like that is ludicrous. It’s all public information until it means something important. And I mean, I understand this is a very politically and actually personally sensitive matter. Which, and I don’t shame people for this, and I think that, I don’t have an opinion really on this in regards to vaccine, but I have an opinion on is science. And when I went through all of my statistical training like postdoctorate, I did secondary analysis and drug design. And to do a drug design in eight months, when it should take 10 years, and you look at the fact that maybe a couple if not a several steps were dismissed. And then you start going back and you look at the data that was over, sort of, like, almost kind of like just, I mean, not fabricated. I gotta be careful about that. But it was just sort of jumped over the mathematical steps and there were assumptions made.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Did you hear that doctor that was interviewed on Joe Rogan’s podcast, and he said that it is completely not only legal, but it’s standard operation for pharmaceutical companies to deliberately withhold data, and they give the data that they want to give to the doctors actually analyzing the data.

Dr. Brandon Brock: I was told this. It’s like, what’s the control of your study? And what is the experimental group of your study? They’re like, it’s the biggest experimental group in the world and like, “What are you talking about?” They’re like “Everybody that got the vaccine.” And I was like, “Well, listen, where’s the consent sheet?” And they’re like, “Doesn’t matter.” 

So you gotta realize that we’re all in a big experiment. They’re collecting data. But I mean, if I was to do a prospective study, and I didn’t delineate very clearly the right inclusive and exclusive criteria, there would be a situation of all hell breaking loose. But it’s like this, there’s this dichotomy of rules. And I think that’s what people are, like, upset about, they’re not upset about the science, they’re not upset about right or wrong, they’re upset about this; the dichotomy of rules. There’s the little scientists out there, like Dr. Berry and I that are just questioning things. And there’s this big group of guys out there that are getting paid, and when I say not millions, but billions to go through the stats. And then when they collide, you know, it’s not always going to be a pretty picture. And I think that that’s the beauty of science. I mean, that…really what I’m talking about this, and I really want to talk through this and say my piece is…

Dr. Chad Woolner: And we’re not talking 2020 science, we’re talking science, science. The scientific method is what you’re talking about. The beauty of this word has been so destroyed, hasn’t it?

Dr. Brandon Brock: No, listen, the beauty of the scientific method is; A. I ask a question, I’m allowed as a scientific practitioner, which is what I am, to ask a question. Okay. 

Dr. Trevor Berry: That’s where it starts. 

Dr. Brandon Brock: And then you say, okay, look, there’s a scientific question. Is there any kind of validity? Is there any kind of research? Is there any systematic, you know, studies that can support exactly what I’m thinking? Or am I crazy? And then you look at that and say, okay, look, there’s room to go further than this. And then you set up some sort of like, small sort of like study that can kind of look at things. And then ultimately, you got a bunch of practitioners. They’re asking questions, legitimate questions. And they’re actually saying things to people who make decisions. And these people who make decisions are committees. And then these committees decide what is actually realistic and what is not. 

And when you’re told that everything that you think is non realistic, and you shouldn’t say anything anymore, we all as a private community, here’s what we do, we retract, and we say nothing. And then nothing gets reported. And when that happens, the public is at danger, in spite of monetary gain, and this is not an anti-vax, or anti-disease or pro-this or pro-that. This is just strictly like, I love my patients. And we can no longer think that way. We’re being told…actually there’s a…I mean, I don’t want to get put in the group of those folks. But we’re in a bit, being censored. Our thoughts as scientists, if you’re a great mind, which I’m not saying I am, but I am a good questioner, and I do do good secondary analysis. And I can’t question what somebody says when the research might be at the highest level, at the highest impact journal deficient and I have every right in the world to ask that question as a health care provider without being criticized. And if it’s wrong, it’s wrong. If it’s right, it needs to be acknowledged. I mean, I don’t know Dr. Berry, what do you think about that? 

Dr. Trevor Berry: Well, and, I, to dovetail off that commentary, because I’ve been doing laser neurology for 15 years, and they’re doing a lot more collaborative speaking. Like we…Erchonia has the most phenomenal speakers; Dan Murphy, Kirk Gair, Jerome Rerucha, Rob Silverman, Kristin Hieshetter, …all these phenomenal speakers but when they asked me, “Who do you want to collaborate with?” I went to Dr. Brandon Brock. And one of the reasons I did that is not only…he’s one of my mentors and teachers, but I knew everything I had in my mindset about what lasers can do. I’ve read, it doesn’t matter how many I’ve read over 3,000 papers on low level laser, there’s almost 12,000 papers on low level laser therapy. And I wanted to challenge my own belief system. 

There’s nobody better on the planet that would challenge me than this guy sitting next to me, Dr. Brandon Brock, because he knows research. He’s done his Harvard stuff on it and that kind of thing. So what I wanted to do was put my own belief system to task because I knew if I brought him on board, that he was going to dissect everything that I believed, everything that I was teaching art and scrutinize…

Dr. Chad Woolner: Just for the record, you’re getting a doctorate in research, is that correct? Where’s that?

Dr. Brandon Brock: Well, I mean, this is…I feel like I’m talking to my kids right now. It’s like, “What does your dad do for a living?” You know? And they’re like, “I don’t know.” I mean, listen, I gotta make this really clear. It’s like, I started out as a chiropractor, and I’m proud of that. I mean, these are, this is a place to say it. I mean, I’m a chiropractor. There’s…you can’t take that away. I mean, once you become a chiropractor, you can’t take that essence away. And by the way, here’s what I’ll say. I learned anatomy and…I learned physiology better than anybody. It was beautiful. I know the biomechanics and the way the body interacts in a way that I really think that not a lot of people understand. 

Well, then I wanted to go into the medical world. And I went into the nursing profession, because I really liked the way the nursing profession really loves people. And then I became a nurse practitioner, then I got a doctorate in nursing practice. And so I understood the leadership of really a family medical environment. And by the way, the ability to love people and see people from a nursing perspective is something you don’t get from medicine all the time. It’s really caring for people so I love that.

Dr. Chad Woolner: My dad’s a retired nurse so…

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, and you can’t, listen, if you ask really dying patients about who their hero is, a lot of times the majority, the times they’ll say, my nurse, they took care of me, they loved me. And so I was like, you know what, I already know this physiology. I know the anatomy, I want to know how to like love people, because I was I got a doctor degree, I was like, 24, I didn’t really know anything. I was not mature enough to have a doctor degree, I’ll be real honest with you. When I went there in the nursing profession, I learned how to love and care for, and see people from a vulnerable, “I’m dying” perspective. And it’s not that medical providers don’t do that. But I…that’s just the path I chose. 

Well, then after that, you know, there’s all these fellowships, there’s all these diplomates, and you’re learning all this functional medicine, all this integrative medicine, and you’re learning that you’re getting experienced. Well, then I’m like, let’s get a PhD because if you’re like me, I’ve got too many questions. And by the way, the worst thing you could ever do is ask questions, and then set up research in a way that’s just completely wrong. It’s not that it’s bad. But you have to know how to do it, in order for it to be worth your time. 

And I have people every day that are kind of beating me up and saying, you cannot ask a question that way. Here’s the scientific method. Here’s the rigor behind the way you think. And I was 99%, clinician, 1% researcher. But what I learned how to be is 40% researcher, 60% clinician, and that researcher in me is not necessarily somebody that’s going to go off in academia. But I’ve learned how to know research what my patients need to know. And if there’s a valid research study out there, now you can kind of sit down and say, this is a way we can do it, where it’s not absolutely illogical. That’s all I bring to the table. And we…I look at Dr. Berry, I mean, it’s like, look, there’s no way I’m ever going to be able to catch him on the understanding of…of lasers. And by the way, we’re not even trying to do that. You got to understand something, we work together in a way where it’s like, wherever there’s a…and this is really honestly the truth. And I think this is the best way to explain it. Wherever there’s a gap. And either one of us we fill that gap. And it’s a little bit of a bromance. I’m sorry, but, but the thing is this, I love you man.

Dr. Trevor Berry: I love you too, man. 

Dr. Brandon Brock: But it’s like we we actually intertwine we there’s not, we’re old enough to not have egos, because we’ve been through stuff where we’ve been just, you’ve been demolished a few times. And that kind of gets rid of it right?

Dr. Trevor Berry: The most important thing is bringing the fact that we challenge each other in a positive way to bring the newest information and the most cutting edge research and when, you know, just three of my papers today were literally published in the last week, you know. And that’s our job, to challenge each other so that we were never going to get complacent with this stuff because a lot of the the old school stuff it’s not…you know, that’s what we were founded on, but there’s such a continued…especially in the field of neurology, if you’re not constantly on the cutting edge of bringing new applications…

Dr. Brandon Brock: …you’re a dinosaur. 

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah. And then to put it into our own practices, that’s why we both want to be in the trenches. I don’t want to retire, I don’t want to…you know, we want to be doing this stuff to see those outcomes with our patient base. And that’s why it’s so important for both of us to be in practice. We’ll finish speaking this week, and we both go to practice Monday morning, and implement exactly what we’re teaching for the weekend.

Dr. Brandon Brock:  Yeah, and Dr. Berry will bring up research. And here’s the thing. I mean, when you go through PhD or research work, and he’s been a PI on studies, so I mean, it’s really, that’s, that’s a big thing. You realize this, your ego doesn’t mean a whole lot, the information that you know, is going to change. And so when he brings up research, or I bring up research, we just absorb it, and it’s not…listen, if it dings your, you know, your philosophical or theoretical belief system, it’s just the way it is, it’s going to always change so…

Dr. Trevor Berry: And it’s a beautiful thing. Our profession has always been on the forefront, the cutting edge, the, you know…we do things that, that the standard old school model doesn’t do. But that’s such…that’s what separates us from the other healthcare providers.

Dr. Andrew Wells: I think one unique thing about you guys that I’ve noticed that comes across really strongly, you guys are both very curious people. And one thing I wanted to ask, as you guys, were you always just curious, in life in general, or was there something about healthcare and taking care of patients that sparked that, and what and what continues to drive that?

Dr. Brandon Brock: You tell your story, I’ll tell mine, because we both have probably have very interesting stories as well.

Dr. Trevor Berry: And so for…I loved, you know, we both went to Park or we were there together at the same time. And, you know, I really appreciated the different techniques, the different, you know, our understanding, but there were so many questions in neurology that I’m like, “Well, they say this, but something didn’t quite jive for me.” So I wanted to understand the pathways and the, you know, the, the physiology, the neurology and that kind of stuff. And so that’s why we both came, became board certified neurologists, was to start to fill in some of those gaps. And that’s not taking away from the foundation of…if anything, it builds on what chiropractic was, is based on. 

And so as we continue to do that, that’s it just keeps flourishing in a way that, like, you know, what we can do now with the nervous system and understanding with things like low level laser therapy, why…it’s based…it’s the fabric of what makes up the chiropractic community. It is such a beautiful symbiotic relationship, you know, what we bring to the table to the healthcare community. So it seemed obvious to me to branch into those areas and say, “Okay, if I can change brain with a chiropractic adjustment, what else can I do to change the brain and improve and if there’s other tools to do that, whether it’s a nutrition product, a laser, you know, that kind of thing.” But then it became very important to me to, I knew low level laser was one of the biggest game changers in the field of brain based rehab very early on, and you know, over…I’ve been doing it now for over 15 years. But it was…I’m going to do it in the…with the device that was the safest number one, and the most efficacious. And again, I’m careful to say that word in front of my research buddy, right here…

Dr. Brandon Brock: Efficacious is a deadly word. 

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, it’s a deadly word in research, you know. But that was why I attached my cart to the Erchonia horse. Is that they nailed. It all the parameters, and it keeps being validated study after study after study is what Erchonia brings to the table. They nailed it, they were on the, on the forefront of that.

Dr. Brandon Brock:  Well, you know, when I was a kid, here’s what happened to me, and this is kind of a silly story, but it’s actually worth telling. I mean, I had a pecan tree and a pear tree in my backyard. And we all know that in order for these things to bear appropriate fruit, you need to have something to cross pollinate with, right? And so we never got really good fruit. We never got really good pecans. And we always got broken trees. And I would…as a child, I was bewildered by this. I mean, I was questioning nature. I was always questioning nature, just like I’m always questioning research right now. And I’ll question Dr. Berry, and I will allow him to question me. 

You gotta understand something, the people that don’t allow you to question them, they need to be released from the system. And so I used to,  I mean, literally, like, like portions of the tree would break and it would be like, “Why can’t I like, tape this together?” Or “why can I sew this together? Can I do this in a way that’s going to make this thing heal.” And I didn’t understand why I didn’t…there was not a yield of a crop or a fruit or a nut. There was not the right way. So the scientific process in me, and the questioning started from a very young age. And I realized that I wanted to learn about brains when I was probably about 10 years old. 

But you know what I was told? “You’re really not smart enough to learn about brains.” And so I think I think that screwed me up so bad. I mean, well, what my poor wife who’s actually in the room right now she’s like, “Oh, my God, can you please stop getting degrees?” But what happened is this, man, you can’t do all these systems without clinical curiosity. So all that clinical, all that curiosity as a child turned into an adult, and you look at things and you’re like, “Why? Why is this happening?” And you start getting to a point where like, I don’t really care what the answer is anymore. I need to research it. And I need to read papers. And Dr. Berry, he sends me something. He challenges my entire ideological and theoretical and philosophical components of something that I’ve been entrenched in. And when he does that, you’re just, I think we’re at the age, you know, our Red Bull challenge, we’re getting close to 50. But as you get to that age, you’re just ready to receive it. You know, you’re just like, look, he’s got some cool stuff. How am I going to grow the understanding of these, this pecan tree, this pear tree? For me, as a child, my inner child comes out like, “How…why is this growing fruit? Why is this not growing a pecan? Why is there not cross pollination? Why do things not grow back together?” It’s the “whys.” And when we actually give each other information, and we understand the “whys,” it’s like, man, and it’s like, “dude, I cannot believe I missed that. Or thank you so much.” It’s not a matter of “this is my system. You don’t belong in it.” It’s, “this is our system. We’re building it together.” And I got to tell you in the world of chiropractic medicine, or any other profession, that is almost absolutely unheard of.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I think what you’re talking about…I’ve said before, at some point, like I think one of the most underrated superpowers…I was in fact we were when were we talking about this? The…you know what the official…I want to make sure I don’t misquote this.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Google this man. Google. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, here we go. Do you guys know what the official jack of all trades quote? 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Master of nothing?

Dr. Trevor Berry: The functional neurology? 

Dr. Chad Woolner: No, no, no, no. It’s not what people think it is. It’s, it says, jack of all, the actual jack of all trades, quote is “Jack of all trades, master of none, though, often better than a master of one.” 

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah. And that’s nice. 

Dr. Chad Woolner:  And so the thing is this, what you’re talking about there. I look at my dad, my dad’s probably i…he’s like a hero of mine in so many ways. He’s probably one of the smartest men I’ve ever met or known in my life. And I know a lot of people say that about their dads, which is awesome. That’s fantastic. But one of the things that I can identify very clearly about my dad, very similar to you, and what you’re saying is, my dad’s a very curious person. And he’s very well read in a diverse manner. I mean, the coolest thing about my dad that I could say, as a compliment, but just factually, what I’ve seen firsthand is you could literally drop him into just about any type of social situation, pick a topic, and he’d be able to hold his own with that topic, because he’s just so well read in such a far…and it’s because of that just kind of inquisitive curiosity. He’s just genuinely curious. He’s very concerned and interested in people, in things in life, you know. And so I think being curious and being well read in a wide range of different things, is the type of mindset that many should have. But like you said, for biases, for ego for any number of reasons. A lot of people don’t have that.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Dr. Berry, curiosity might have killed the cat. Well, that curiosity. I mean, we’re asking questions that some people don’t really like.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, totally. 

Dr. Brandon Brock:  But however, patients demand. So there’s a difference between patient demand and the capacity of the doctor to participate.

Dr. Trevor Berry: And I think everyone listening would agree with this. If your heart is in the right place as a health care provider, it’s not about your ego, it’s not about your dogma, it’s not about your belief system. It’s what’s the best thing for the patient outcomes? That’s what Dr. Brock and I, we try and bring just as much information to the table as possible, so that your patient base gets the best outcomes.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think, regardless of where you sit on this, we’ll call it spectrum, right in terms of what’s taking place.

Dr. Andrew Wells: We’re on the spectrum. We’re not quite autistic. But I mean.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  Is idiot savant the correct term? No, what I was gonna say is, the thing I would say is, regardless of where you sit, the thing I would ask people to pay attention to or see is this, this is the, this is the thing I would point out. The fact that two years ago, we were not even…there’s no way we could have published this episode of this podcast two years ago. Because of the things we’re …we’re not even like, jumping into it. We’re just like hinting and alluding at certain things that are like “hey, something’s wrong here.” The fact that we can now publish this no problem, it’s, we’re saying we’re in the clear zone. That in and of itself should be concerning to people as as like, you know, you know what I’m saying?

Dr. Brandon Brock:  And I know Dr. Berry is gonna chime in on this, but it’s like we have, legit…as a researcher…and listen, I was told that I can’t ask any questions about COVID. And I’m in a PhD program and listen, a PhD program, if you don’t, if you can’t ask questions, you’re screwed, man. Right? There’s, I mean, it’s, it’s not like that’s a bragatorius thing. It’s actually a beating kind of action in a way. But it’s like, you have to be able to ask very difficult questions, because PhDs are the people that are going to solve the basic problems of what we have in science and the world in some, some regard, right? And so all of a sudden, you get this message where it’s like, you can’t ask this question.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Who’s telling you that, by the way?

Dr. Brandon Brock: It’s not a good idea to say.

Dr. Andrew Wells: So basically, whatever authority was there is saying you can’t ask a question.

Dr. Brandon Brock: It’s like this. It’s like, you got to understand this. And it’s not at all a bad thing. I don’t want to be all negative. But it’s like, the medical establishment is trying to set up a system where it’s like, look, the population in general needs to be dealt with. Now, I will say one thing about statistics, there is no such thing as one thing that’s good for everybody, except for maybe oxygen and food, right? 

To say that something man made is good for everyone is a statistical misnomer. And I’m not, I don’t want to argue that because that’s just the fact. But in order to stop from allowing people that are intelligent…and this is really how I feel, and this is not anti science, or anti board or anti medicine or pro chiropractic. You know, when you say, “Look, man, this is, to the point, to where you need to quit thinking, and you can’t ask a question, and you can’t quit, you can’t question the statistics. And you can’t buck the system.” 

What it does is it brings out the cowboys. And it brings out the people who are just going to say, “You know what, I didn’t grow up…with I grew up with one pear tree and one pecan tree. And it didn’t add up, and neither does this.” And by the way, I don’t think this is all bad. I just think this; studies that typically take 10 years, you did it in seven months. And I understand the need, and the hurry, and the rationale. But it’s just like this, if it happens that way, why can’t we question the system? And why can’t we look at this system and say, this population of people may not be so good, this population of people may respond well, the side effects are this. In other words, do real science instead of just being not centered, yet corner pinned into a perspective of understanding where it’s like, this is the only thing you can project. If you project something different, you’re a heretic. And now you’re just a complete douchebag.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yes, yeah, I don’t think it was…censorship was the issue. I think I think that media has a really good way of controlling opinion by keeping things arguments, A or B, and there’s no C, D, E, F, or G. And we’re actually, we’re a part of the problem right now, because we’re still talking about is the vaccine effective or not? And, and we’re not asking questions. I think we’re also the solution, the fact that providers like us have been talking about option C, D, E, F, G, and there is some, definitely some censorship happening there. But the problem is, I think most general public isn’t doesn’t have the, the intellectual capability to even think outside. And there may be other options, not just in healthcare, but in anything, politics, we have A or B, religion, very, very binary.

Dr. Brandon Brock: I saw a great interview that was done by a, you know, a Nobel Prize winning immunologist. And he was sitting there…he’s like, in his 80s, okay, and I’m not gonna say names. And he was talking with an interviewer, and there was another immunologist there that was in his late 30s. Okay, and so obviously, one had a career and one didn’t; one was retired. And so they were asking all these questions about this virus and all these things. And this, you know, higher level immunologist, has been there for like 50 or 60 years, he’s saying all these controversial things, and this other immunologist is saying the exact opposite and so the, the person that’s actually doing the interview says, “How can you say these things?” And he goes, “Because I don’t have a career to protect and I got a Nobel Prize. What do you think?” 

And this guy just straight up said it. I mean, he didn’t have a single repressive bone in his body and everybody in the room freaked out. And what I thought is; there’s no…free thought is…and I’m really anti censorship, I can just say that part as far as like my own denomination okay? I’m really…I believe in free thought, and if somebody comes across as dumb then this…you know, society in the research community will say this is not correct. But why can’t I ask a question? And he said it brilliantly. He was like…he said it in a way that nobody could really argue he’s like, “I’m a Nobel Prize winner. And I’ve been doing this for 50 years. And I don’t have to worry about my job. What’s your excuses?” 

And the guy just melted into his seat. And nobody had, really, a comeback. And so I’m like, ”Why can’t some of us who are just questioning?” It’s not that we’re bucking the system about any of this, lasers, vaccines, disease, it’s all of medicine, medicine is made. Here’s what makes it beautiful. We get to ask a question. And even Dr. Berry, now, we get to challenge each other. It’s not about left versus right, blue versus red, anything. It’s the scientific method, we’re meant to argue, to an extent and that’s the beautification of it. And when you can’t do that anymore, now science has become political. It’s no longer that beautiful argument that is a little bit of a punch in the face, but not enough to really destroy you. And that’s what makes it so great.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  On that, note COVID and lasers? Let’s go there. 

Dr. Brandon Brock: That’s yours, Dr. Berry. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: COVID and lasers, what’s been your experience personally?

Dr. Trevor Berry: Personally, and in the literature supported. The interesting thing, one of the things I love about this topic with low level laser therapy is that it’s been often stated that the violet end of the spectrum is the big antimicrobial part. And without a doubt, that was shown in COVID studies as well. But there are COVID studies with red laser being very effective with in acute phase resolution.

Dr. Chad Woolner: And I’m assuming that those are…those are laser companies in addition to Erchonia, not just Erchonia.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yes, they are peer reviewed studies, you’ll publish stuff, PubMed stuff. And so I saw it in practice. So it was a big game changer for you know, some of my patients that…my mom was a good example. She was going downhill in a hurry and I got the EVRL Erchonia laser in her hands, and it was a light…My office manager Janelle, same thing, light switch turned on. It was…and I tried the…all the nutrients, zinc and NAC and we, you know, we’re trying all those other methods. But quite often in practice, it was the…the laser that was the thing that got them over the hump. 

And the studies show, like, you know, keeping them out of end stage, hospitalization stuff, all the long term things you would think in acute phase stuff, but also now we’re seeing it in long COVID. Like about probably a good 20% of my practice right now is long COVID stuff. And the lasers are the game changer when you look at the the downstream, you know, inflammation process and the central nervous system, you know, gliosis and interleukin activity, and you know, we’re talking today about some of the brainstem dysautonomia, there’s so much of that it’s an inflammation based process. That was one of the big issues with COVID was the cytokine storm, that overshoot of the inflammation process. And lasers, there’s no better tool on the planet designed to knock down or tamp down inflammation and you know, with the T-Ray immuno-resolution process, so that your immune system can react appropriately to that particular pathogen.

Dr. Chad Woolner: You know, it’s interesting, because I think sometimes, especially if a practitioner is and or a patient is new to laser therapy, they…again, speaking of binary, they expect one of two kinds of outcomes in terms of using laser. So I come in with complaint XYZ, you know, let’s just say COVID, for instance, right? And I laser and I don’t notice…my symptoms immediately gone away or whatever, right? So it’s this very binary, well, that didn’t work for me, right, A or B. 

I was at a continuing ed seminar two months ago, three months ago with Dr. Rerucha, in Salt Lake. And he said something that just…was like a little pearl that I stuck in the back of my brain. He said, “If you have a patient who’s getting ready to go into surgery,” he said “you will miss a massive opportunity for them to get exponentially better outcomes in their healing. If you don’t laser them first, right before they go to surgery on that body part, whatever.” And he said, in essence, though, and you guys can clarify this in terms of the specific scientific jargon, but in essence, you’re pre loading the cells to be optimally charged, if you will, for the best possible outcome 


Dr. Brandon Brock: …to tolerate torture. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And so, and so what happened was, we had a patient of ours who’s going in for a knee replacement. It was just…he was…he was ready, he was there, and he was going to do it. And, and I just pulled him aside and I said, “you know, I was at this seminar, I know you’re going to do your knee surgery, this is not for the intent that we’re going to magically fix your knee and prevent the surgery, which would be amazing. That’d be incredible, right?” 

But I’m like, “just knowing that you’re going to go through with that. Let’s…let’s do this, just to see if this might possibly improve your outcomes.” And that was it. I really didn’t talk it up much. I’m just like, let’s just give it a shot, you know. And again, in terms of this, A B binary outcome…again, we assume oh, he gets up and “It’s gone. My pain’s gone.” Yeah, that’s what people are expecting. Or the…you know, nothing changed. Well, it didn’t work. 

Well what wound up happening was he went through the surgery as…as expected. But what wasn’t expected for him and for his doctor, and for his physical therapist that he was seeing afterwards. He said, “I have beaten all of their projections.” And he said “the only thing that I can point to and all of it” because he’s…he’s overweight, which we’re using the Zerona on him. And he’s lost a ton of weight from that, which has just been super cool too. Which is no doubt helping systemically as well, beyond just the fat loss side of things. But his recovery has just been so incredibly rapid. And he’s doing the other knee and a few…in a month or two. And he’s like, “I’m going to do that way more than just once before because I know that that’ll help.”

And so my whole point in bringing that up, is with COVID, even if it…you know…may or may not kill COVID, right in its tracks or whatever, you know. Which I’m not making that claim here, obviously on this podcast. But I think in a very similar way, no doubt, you can only improve and give your body a much better chance to become a higher level of resilience.

Dr. Brandon Brock: I was gonna say resilience. I don’t know what you have to think about. Resilience is such a broad term. I mean, like, optimizing physiology, giving tissue integrity, we can’t sit here and say that we’re curing COVID any more than we say, can say that we understand everything about COVID vaccines, or COVID disease, or COVID infection, right? We just have to help people live. 

And really honestly, that’s what it’s boiled down to, in regards to practitioners, we just want people to live. And when you boil it down even further, you put practitioners in a corner. And most clinicians, when you put their back against the wall, will put their patients in front of themselves. And so everybody’s sitting there saying, “How am I going to help this person live? And what am I going to do?” It doesn’t matter anymore what you do. The statistics disappear, the politics disappear, and you start doing things to keep people alive. Then the questions come afterwards in regards to why what I saw did, why did it work? Or why did it not work? It’s the scientific process that’s been happening since the dawn of drugs, penicillin, vitamins.

Dr. Andrew Wells: We have this thing in our group that healthcare providers should be what we call solutions curators. Meaning not to be so boxed into what this sort of linear thinking of, you know, thinking outside the box of “what else can I do to help patients?” 

And I saw you guys do this today, when you’re talking about stacking therapies. Like when you’re using a laser therapy, you can do other things while you’re doing laser therapy, which I thought is really innovative, to even improve the outcomes of what you’re doing, as you know…not that laser therapy alone is bad, but there’s other ways that you can even more ways that you can help your patients.

Dr. Chad Woolner:  Well, and even Erchonia, in the training that they give they say like in terms of lasers, there’s kind of a good, better, best in terms of general protocol. They say good if you just laser the area; set it and forget it. Better is involving some type of, you know, motion, or some type of input, that’s where…

Dr. Trevor Berry: …activating the system.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah. And then best would be like, against resist…a little bit of resistance included to really kind of further amp up or further engage at a higher level.

Dr. Brandon Brock:  And this is a Canadian term; “the bestest.”

Dr. Trevor Berry: We are a central nervous system system. And so why not use lasers in transcranial vagal all those applications we’re talking about today.

Dr. Andrew Wells: I told Dr. Woolner today, I was going to laser his brain while calling him dummy repeatedly over and over again, and see what happened.

Dr. Chad Woolner: We had a practitioner who just got the FX 405, and he was dealing with some reticular symptoms down shoulder and arm. And I was like, “I’m so excited for you to do it.” And so he did it just kind of a point and shoot I’m like, “and what happened?” And he said, “I’ve done it three times. And I haven’t noticed any difference.” And so immediately I’m thinking and maybe you guys can chime in on this, we can use this as kind of an impromptu little case here. But I told him active…get some active motion. I said laser the brain and or the brain stem area. Activate that by just getting some motion in there and or a little bit of resistance. Your thoughts on that?

Dr. Brandon Brock:  Well, we’ll circle around Dr. Berry, He’ll have good information about this. But I mean, my first thought is, “Okay, look, we do our top down approach.” Maybe it’s brain, maybe it’s functional. But maybe, just maybe there’s a disc herniation that is so bad that…I mean we have to go in conventional medicine say this, people get radiculopathies. They get active denervation. Their EMG is positive, you know, for active denervation, fibrillations, and you know, you know positive you know…look, it just comes down to the point where it’s not a good deal at the segmental level, right?

Dr. Trevor Berry: But even with that said, you’d be amazed at how many of these cases we have are discogenic, that kind of thing. That even with that, that obvious sign on MRI, you still do those upstream and downstream things we were teaching today’s them and it saves them they don’t have to go in their surgery. A good example…we brought a doctor up on stage today with her shoulder situation. She had more signs of dystonia based shoulder dysfunction and things like that. 

We were teaching all the way from brain downstream to the shoulder tissue, but we could have stopped at parietal and cerebellar laser applications and she probably would have been almost good to go based on that without even touching the shoulder. So to your case that you were talking about so many these things are centrally mediated, you know, situations that the brain has maladapted.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So for…because this has been somewhat of a surprising turn of events with The Laser Light Show podcast is I’ve been getting a lot of patients and/or I’ve heard from other practitioners, their patients are listening to this. So you’ve thrown out some terms there, that…and I’ll be honest to some of the terms are above me too. Anyway, so…

Dr. Brandon Brock: Above us too.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Because the laser dummy therapy is working

Dr. Trevor Berry: Well, I’m just…I say it with a Canadian accent with conviction, so they have to believe me.

Dr. Brandon Brock: And I say it with a Texan accent so it can be completely wrong.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So for patients who are listening to this, what would that look like in layman’s terms in terms of what that therapy would look like? And then the practitioner’s like, “okay, I can do that.” And the rationale in terms of…because you talked about…did you see neuroplastic changes that have taken place in the brain, maladaptive?

Dr. Brandon Brock: So say, I have a shoulder injury? Yeah, you’ve got local tissue damage or inflammation, things like that, but what really makes the situation, say chronic and not responsive to typical therapies, is that the central nervous system starts to adapt to that injury and makes changes in how the muscles move at the muscles may contract…

Dr. Chad Woolner: And you’re talking physical map…remapping of the brain territory?

Dr. Brandon Brock: It’ll do it. It’s very plastic. Now screwed up, now screwed up, man. And so you have your your body will show it and Dr. Berry….

Dr. Chad Woolner: I don’t want to take you off track. But real quick. Have you guys read that book by David Eagleman, Livewired

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Great.

Dr. Brandon Brock: I have not. I don’t read a whole lot of books.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, I know you’re you’re you’ve got a fair excuse as to why you’re…

Dr. Trevor Berry: Not enough time on his hands.

Dr. Brandon Brock:  I read the The Cat and the Hat when I’m in the corner, crying.

Dr. Trevor Berry: So I think for the…all levels of the audience listening is that, yeah, you can do some amazing things, you might be seeing the best physical therapist, the best chiropractor on the planet doing awesome work on the shoulder. But if that brain has maladapted to compensate for that, just like a bad golf swing, or something that becomes ingrained in the central nervous system. Until you change your brain firing…in the brain patterns. That’s what can sometimes get those patients over the hump, when it’s…when it’s beyond just the point and shoot, set it and forget it. Usually it’s because of a brain maladaptation. So that’s why we teach doctors to do brain based laser exposure. Combine that with the physical therapy, with the range of motion, the stretching and things like that. And quite often, that’s what gets them over that final hurdle.

Dr. Andrew Wells: And because have you guys started to dabble in the world of virtual reality as a therapy? 

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yes, we have. 

Dr. Andrew Wells: Because that’s kind of like, that’s where my mind went with this is is is that…

Dr. Brandon Brock: There will…eventually will be artificial intelligence, brain implants. And basically, there’ll be people like us looking at neuroplasticity and saying, “Look, this is incorrect. Let’s use a chip that my neighbor’s 10 year old can hack into.” I mean, it’s all very scary, man. I gotta be honest with you. 

Every time we say that can’t happen. We exceed that. And so I mean, let me let me go back to the dystonia, our possible dystonia patient today. I mean, she didn’t present with a clear shoulder injury, she didn’t present with a clear neck injury. She had multiple accidents, God knows where the problem is. She doesn’t have a positive MRI, she doesn’t have a clear dermatomal or, you know, cutaneous distribution of sensory loss. So you’re sitting there, and you’re like, “this may be cortical.” 

And then when you watch her move, you see movement patterns that just aren’t in line with normal movement. The scapular rotation versus the glenohumeral joint. And if you are trained in biomechanics, you look at and you’re like, “This isn’t right. And if it flares up, it’s going to be even really not right.” So what did we do? I mean, did we change? What do we do? Do we retrain her movement patterns? Did we just decrease pain? Was it a placebo saying you’re gonna be better? I really think that we activated the brain to understand where that joint is, and we moved it in patterns, where her brain now understands, this is the new pattern, not the basal ganglia.

Dr. Trevor Berry:“Oh, this is how I’m supposed to move. This is how I’m supposed to be positioned. This is how the muscles are supposed to be contracting and relaxing and that kind of stuff.” 

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think anybody can understand that.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah, you know, you have to change central nervous system beyond the…you know, she, yeah, for sure. She may have had some rotator cuff, you know, inflammation, those kind of things. But that was not the big picture in this case. 

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah. And you say anybody can understand that and I agree with you, but no. I mean,  the theory, the theory is great. However, the practice of medicine is, is this efficiency and monetary? We spent, we spent 15 minutes on her? 15 minutes. But you have to be efficient. Nobody else is going to I mean, not say nobody very few people in medicine, they’re going to do this. They’re gonna look at her and say, “You know what? You need a muscle relaxer, you need an NSAID, you might need an antidepressant. If this is going on, you know, we’ll maybe even get crazy and send you to some acupuncture.” 

But we look at and we’re like, “this is just a bad movement pattern. The brain is not that great if we just reestablish that. We can make a big…” We did it in 10 minutes today. Yeah. And I think that, again, how many times have we asked questions? How many times have we answered questions from a clinical perspective, and just moved forward with application.

Dr. Trevor Berry: All healthcare providers…there’s nothing stopping…whether you’re doing massage therapy, whether you’re doing acupuncture, naturopath. Every one of us can be doing what we were talking about today. And she talked about how the whole…not just her shoulder movement, but the whole, the whole left side of her body, her thorax, everything, felt better, felt more relaxed, and that thing. Because you take a neuro centric brain based approach to that. And that’s why every…that’s why I say it half jokingly, but half serious is that even if you’re not a board certified neurologist, don’t worry about it. Everyone can turn a laser on and point it at the brain. I don’t care what your level of training is, you don’t have to be…have a doctor in front of your name, you can point a laser at different areas of the brain, they’re gonna facilitate the well being of that joint function.

Dr. Brandon Brock: It’s not neurosurgery, it’s neural activation without an inappropriate dose. 

Dr. Trevor Berry: That’s the key, you got to have the right device. And when you’re treating brain, you cannot be using high powered lasers. That’s why you were attached to the Erchonia horse. You guys have attached yourself. Like the scientific evidence that goes back to this is why, you know, brought Dr. Brock on board is that the evidence backs low dose, low level, lower wavelength, higher energy with lower wavelength lasers. That’s where the magic happens. And that’s why we’re here today.

Dr. Brandon Brock:  Yeah, I wasn’t fooled by the heat. I wasn’t fooled by the…I mean, initially, like my, my mom had a dupuytren’s contracture, and I used a, like a class 4, like the kind of laser that could burn a hole in the wall. And I treated her with it and literally all the tissue started to make this liquefactive, like exudate into the area. And I was like, now that I look back on it, I’m like, “Oh, my God!” Like the fact that something can change tissue that quickly, and she didn’t get any better. And it was so profoundly impacting the tissue. And the fact that basically, a team from NASA had to come out and teach me how to use this thing without destroying the world. I mean, it was just crazy. And I think back to them, like it didn’t, it didn’t do anything different other than just over- and I hate to use the word dose, but I mean, I’m gonna use it, it just overdosed the patient, they didn’t need that amount of photonic energy to get the job done.

Dr. Trevor Berry:  There’s a time and a place for a blade of lasers that are high powered, lasering in your brain is not that time.

Dr. Brandon Brock: So if I’m getting LASIK surgery, that’s a different laser than musculoskeletal. And the people that develop, you know, really good laser researchers, they understand laser physiology. And they’ll sit…they’ll tell you, “what you guys are trying to achieve with the mitochondria and the electron transport chain is not what we’re trying to do with cauterizing soft tissue or blowing up somebody…you know, a satellite in space.” That, there’s a gigantic range between laser physiology. And it just, it cracks…Dr. Berry, we sit down and we’re like “man, the laser that causes the most symptoms and if they can survive through it, that’s the best laser right?”

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, and we caught that on the questions after today’s seminar. Even though you guys talked about it’s not about power, it’s not about penetration. Yet you still get from our profession even though like it’s been said 100,000 times it’s not about power imprint, its wavelength.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Yeah. Wavelength, low dose, it’s the energy of the photon, and it doesn’t take many photons to create that energy and get those that you know the atomic, the electrons to go to higher levels of Valence activity that creates that energy model.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Was it you that had said like when you step out into the sun, you don’t want your kidneys and liver and everything else getting sunburned…

Dr. Trevor Berry: The liver’s not gonna get sunburned.

Dr. Brandon Brock: I mean, you got to look at it and say, “Okay, what is the sun doing?” I mean, it, it’s at a certain wavelength, it’s at a certain power, it’s going to be very superficial. It’s again, vibrating that superficial water component, and it’s…it lowers the depth of penetration, which is why my white skin gets burned and my liver doesn’t. Thank goodness. That’s the way it is. We have to change what we’re doing with low level laser therapy so that it actually does create a superficial component, which changes the subcutaneous components, which gets to the mitochondria, and changes the energy production in the cells and the tissues that we’re trying to make healthy. And that’s not an easy process that took…when you look at the Shanks family, it took years to get to the point to where they were actually satisfied with where we’re at today. And this…

Dr. Trevor Berry: …they tried the high powered models and it didn’t work. That’s why they backed off of that. We want photochemical, not photo thermal reaction. The whole point of any other 3B and 4 laser is to heat tissue topically. Because those types of wavelengths, the longer wavelengths with higher power, all it does is vibrate molecules, the water molecules in the dermis area. Yeah. And to create that topical, that’s why they have their FDA clearance.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and it’s interesting you say that because we had prior to getting the Erchonia lasers in our clinic, we had a class 4 laser. We loved it, it was it was awesome. I thought it was the coolest thing ever

Dr. Andrew Wells: Can blow satellites. The thing is, you cut off arms.

Dr. Chad Woolner: And the thing is, now though is is that the thing now that I look at it is there are times when I still want to use it, but it’s times when I want some warmth. That’s really the…

Dr. Brandon Brock: Just get a hot pack.

Dr. Trevor Berry: A very expensive hotpack. A $40,000 hotpack.

It’s really, I mean, people are so stuck on sensation rather than function. I mean, in that time, though, to be quite honest, we…the only problem we run into is this: “I’m not I’m not feeling a whole lot of what you’re doing. But you see the end results.” But yes, patients have to be patient, right?

Dr. Andrew Wells: We interviewed a veterinarian. And that was one of the cool thing you said about animals is there’s no placebo effect. The animals can’t feel it. And there’s no they don’t know that anything’s even happening, but they get better. And humans know they have that, that thought like, “not feeling it. It’s not tingling.”

Dr. Brandon Brock:  Yeah, it’s all fun games till you liquefy a parakeet’s liver, you know. 

Dr. Trevor Berry: We just went off the rails. We’re probably getting to the end of the podcast. 

Dr. Brandon Brock: I mean, it’s been but seriously, it’s like, and I will say, you know, I mean, we are trying to get into the veterinarian world, my brother’s a vet, right. And he’s really good horse surgeon. And they they’re doing everything I can to keep things sterile, to keep things healthy to heal. And it’s very easy to come in and say, “look, the animal is going to experience this.” The great thing about veterinary lasers is this. They’re not going to go…the dogs not gonna look at you and go, “I can’t feel the-“. I mean, you just need to understand the physiology and the photo chemistry behind it.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I want to hear how the dog sounds again.

Dr. Brandon Brock: I don’t know if I drink enough to do that. But and it’s like this, really seriously. Living organisms are living organisms. Let’s not burn them. Let’s not denature proteins, and let’s give them the right…

Dr. Trevor Berry: Do no harm. Our number one job.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Quote on quote, dose. 

Dr. Andrew Wells: So as we’re I know, this podcast is probably going along, which is great. 

Dr. Brandon Brock: That’s awesome. 

Dr. Andrew Wells: One thing I want to ask and I’m always curious about I think our docs will be curious about; we’re talking about brain health. We talked a lot about neurology today. What do you guys do at home? I…just looking at you guys, I can tell that you that you’re living the way you preach, and what you preach. But what, what are you guys doing at home in terms of like morning routines, evening routines, to maintain brain health so that you don’t end up like most Americans?

Dr. Chad Woolner: But before we go even into that, can you share with them this statistic that you started off with that, like got everybody’s attention? Right out the gates?

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah. A scary…Yeah, it’s…

Dr. Trevor Berry: It’s pretty alarming that the statistics show that we’re now breaching that 50% of Americans are going to die with some sort of neurodegenerative dementia type of diagnosis.

Dr. Brandon Brock: And what if you’re born…50% are autistic. So then who’s in the middle? I mean, you got to look at this and say, “really, who’s going to actually pay for all that?” And I’m, this is not an insensitive thing. Who’s gonna pay for all this shit? who’s gonna be left? And it’s, it’s, I mean, I got daughters, and he’s got daughters, and they’re gonna have kids and we’re looking at this and we’re like, “What the hell, man? I mean, literally, what the hell is gonna happen to us and them?

Dr. Chad Woolner: I felt very much like when you said that you could feel a sense of urgency, a sense of mission and purpose. Like somebody needs to seriously like…without sounding overly dramatic, sound an alarm on this because like, this needs to become like…

Dr. Trevor Berry: Of the causes of death. Yeah, it’s the one that skyrockets. And and if you said to me, Dr. Berry, “What would be your number one monotherapy that you’re going to attack neurodegeneration with?” Without a doubt it’s low level laser therapy. You do not take that out of my practice. You can take anything else out of my repertoire, do not take my Erchonia low level laser…

Dr. Chad Woolner:  I didn’t want to sidetrack against Andrew’s question there. But I just wanted to kind of frame that around why that…why what you’re doing to protect your brains? What are the things you’re doing?

Dr. Andrew Wells: Actually, Chad, you brought up a good point. And this I was thinking about this in the seminar today, there was a doctor there who had a young family. She had some of her kids running in, and I have young boys at home. And I’m thinking, when I heard that stat, I’m like, one of the things I’m thinking of as a parent, for my boys, is whoever they decide to marry at a certain point, one of the big things I think they have to think about is how healthy are they like, 20 years old? Yeah. 25-30 years old? 

Dr. Brandon Brock: Those are my patients. Yeah, that…like they showed up and it was hard to recognize them. I mean, I mean, to kind of bring this to a conclusion. I mean, you talk about laser, you talk about…I mean…we talk about so much stuff. I mean, it’s like what do we do to get our brains in the right mindset? You know, we have relationships, I’ve got a good relationship with Dr. Berry, I’ve got a good relationship at work, I have a beautiful, wonderful wife that puts me in the right mindset. So there’s so many metrics to this thing. I mean, we look at lasers is one component of…I mean… And I said today you can’t out nutrition, a bad diet, like supplement wise, right? 

It’s all about balance. You got some exercise, you got some supplements, you got some nutrition, you have a laser. Maybe if you need medication, you have it, you have a good relationship. And what you’re trying to do…and we we use the word hormesis, flippantly. But in all reality, your your world is balanced man. And we you hear people say this all the time from Tony Robbins all the way down to us, right? Your life has to be balanced. 

And so I would say this; have good relationships, don’t have stress. Have something that can activate your brain, and not deactivate it. Find out what your weak spots are, and fulfill them in nutrition. Look at your weak spots and diet, have somebody that can help you. If you’re not exercising, get off your ass and do something. If you don’t have relationships, make some friends with people that you can actually adhere to and relate to. And if you do those things, you know what you’re doing your best. And that’s all we can do. Because there’s a Z for everybody, right? A to Z. It’s what is your journey from A to Z gonna be like?

Dr. Chad Woolner: Well, and I think in all of that everything you’re saying I think makes perfect sense to people and that’s all stuff that’s fairly attainable. I think that kind of ace up the sleeve that we’re talking about is that laser. You know, that, that’s that kind of…

Dr. Trevor Berry: And that’s what I was gonna answer like, I do live a fairly healthy lifestyle. I do yoga, I do…I exercise high intensity interval training, I do shunt stabilization exercises. I’ve…I’ve gotten out of bad relationships. You know, I’ve done a lot of this stuff. 

I do fasting, I eat mostly a paleo keto type diet, Mediterranean modified, you’ll…I call it the Mother Nature, diet, things like that. But I also eat more bacon than anyone I know, in the planet. I’ll have a glass of red wine, that kind of stuff. So I have to do certain things to offset that. And that’s one of the things that I’m a good test subject for why I take a laser home every night. I have one in my hotel room right now. I have my EVRL because we had some wine and I know our steak at dinner tonight was a lot of grass fed grass finished.

Dr. Brandon Brock: He’s going to open his clothes right now you just can’t see.

Dr. Trevor Berry: So what I do, that’s my great equalizer. Nobody is perfect on this planet. Nobody in the United States is going to live the cleanest diet, exercise. You know, I get it. There’s a few people, you know, there’s the exceptions, but most Americans are not living that lifestyle. So what I like about the laser, it’s the great equalizer. 

Dr. Brandon Brock: That’s a good, that’s a good, that’s a good way of saying it, man.

Dr. Trevor Berry: And that’s that’s how I’m gonna you know, when you ask that question about what I do. Yeah, I do meditation and stress reduction and prayer and like all these other things that that that are going to be beneficial. But I also am going to beat myself up once in a while. And that’s where the laser comes in to offset that.

Dr. Brandon Brock: And we’re all going to listen…here’s success. And then this is a true stat. If your patients doing 80% of what you asked, that is extremely successful, which means this. That laser and a few other things help pick up the damage from that 20, or 10, or 30%

Dr. Trevor Berry: …or in some Americans 90%

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yes. Like, if I tried to treat Trevor, he tried to treat me it’s like we built we’d be like “okay, whatever, yeah.” But I mean, we’ve…we’ve both realized through hard knocks, we have to do something or else we’re going to become extinct on this planet faster than we should be. And so we both have girls, which is…you know, for us, more important than ourselves. We both…you know, have people that are important in our lives. And for some reason whenever you…got I don’t know this may sound wrong, but we got daughters. We have to be around for them. We have to be role models. We have to protect them. It’s not that if we didn’t have son….you know, I don’t know if you have any boys but it’s like…

Dr. Trevor Berry: Not that I know of.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Yeah, no, no franchises that he knows of. But it’s like, you have to be there and support and be healthy and be…be able to have some sort of resilience and retention and, and strength to actually be able to do things that you need to do. And but we all have that. We’re just all trying to get through this race.

But it’s like, you have to be there and support and be healthy and be…be able to have some sort of resilience and retention and, and strength to actually be able to do things that you need to do. And but we all have that. We’re just all trying to get through this race.

Dr. Trevor Berry: And that’s the last statement I think that Dr. Brock and I would agree on in this is that you invest in a low level laser with Erchonia, for your loved ones, your benefactors. And yourselves, you invest in your own brain so that we can all be the best health care providers, because we have so many people that were put on this planet to help. And so here we are. Low level laser is one of the best ways that I’m going to maintain and protect my brain, so I can be doing the best I can for not just my daughters, but for my patient base, for my loved ones.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Well and the thing that I would end with…kind of full circle on all of this is going back to kind of how you opened today’s seminar. This, this idea that that’s the alarm that’s being sounded and those who are listening to this podcast right now, something so stupidly simple that each one of them can do to help in this process is share this podcast with as far and wide as you can truly share this podcast. Because, Because…

Dr. Trevor Berry: Go Viral.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I know seriously, because here’s the deal. This is how this becomes mainstream, if this tool is as powerful as we’re claiming it is, which it is. This needs to become mainstream, it needs to become something that is not this obscure, like “Oh, I heard that there’s this doctor that has one of these. And maybe if I searched the zip code, I can drive 50 miles to go see this, you know, random,” or that you feel like you’ve got to like fly out to Dr. Berry, which I’m sure he’d love to see…he gets people flying out, or Dr. Brock, you guys get people flying out from all over the country to see you guys. That’s awesome. But you guys are only two doctors, right? And we’re talking about a country with…

Dr. Trevor Berry: And that’s why we’re here. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, exactly. And so, so for those listening, that is the kind of plea that we would have with you is, share this as far and wide on social media as you can if you’re, if you’re listening to this, if this has resonated with you, share this with other practitioners, share this with your patients. And for those practitioners who are listening, get to an Erchonia seminar. Like, seriously, like, when you, when you come like it’s, it’s so compelling is so so compelling. Like, it’s just the coolest that we’ve connected with Erchonia.

Dr. Brandon Brock: Well, I would just add this, there’s a you know, you talk about finding a laser practitioner, but there’s so many people that are just disenfranchised. And so many people that are chronically ill, and so many people that have been to the Mayo Clinic, or the Cleveland Clinic, or they’ve spent $100,000, and doctors. And there’s just nobody that can help them. I mean, I see these people all the time. And it is difficult for us as practitioners because there’s a lot of stress to help people out. But you know, look, man, there’s a hierarchy. And we have to be able to do something for people that are at the end of their rope, or people that are at the beginning of their rope. And we’re just trying to get to the point to where we can keep, listen, science and treatment can keep up with pathological progression. And if we can do that, we’re better off as a civilization. If we can’t do it, we’re gonna get swallowed. 

And look, the reason why I love Dr. Berry so much is because he pushes me to keep up with pathological progression. Pathological progression is my therapeutic modalities, keeping up with how sick we’re becoming. And we’re becoming sick as a society with stress and with infectious disease, and with deterioration. And with you name it. Can we keep up with it and become integrated? And can we get along and we can talk about theoretical advancement in research, and get over ourselves and collaborate and I hope that’s what gets through. I hope that’s what makes this podcast go viral. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, no. I agree. 100%

Dr. Andrew Wells: We have to do more Late Night with Dr. Berry and Dr. Brock. This was fun. Truly enjoyed it you guys. 

Dr. Trevor Berry: We’re honored to be here with you and you guys to get that message out. You guys are doing such a service to humankind and we’re very blessed to have you here.

Dr. Brandon Brock: And nobody knows we’re in our underwear right now. 

Dr. Andrew Wells: This podcast happened by the way, Chad and I are laying our beds. I was getting ready to go to bed. Oh, you heard a (knocking sounds) “You ready to do a podcast?”

Dr. Chad Woolner: Funny. So while while Chad and Andrew are in their jammies. Trevor and Brandon are in suits and ties. Yeah, for the record.

Dr. Brandon Brock: The shoes hurt. They’re on my feet for so long.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So we’ll let these fellas get to bed. We got another day of exciting instruction tomorrow that we’re really looking forward to. Again, docs and patients alike who have been listening to this. Share this with those that you feel could benefit. We sure appreciate Dr. Trevor Berry and Dr. Brandon Brock being here with us. 

We appreciate your guys’ time, we appreciate everything you’re doing in teaching everything that Erchonia is doing and how you guys are fitting into all this. It’s just absolutely incredible. And it’s been really exciting to see this and really looking forward to you…know how this particular episode ages a year from now, five years from now. You know, and what advancements are around the corner. Because I know that Erchonia is much like you guys, which is why I think you guys are so integrated with them. They’re constantly keeping their finger on the pulse of research and constantly investing so much time and energy and resources and money into, into advanced research. 

Dr. Trevor Berry: No other company, no other company is doing what’s they are.

Dr. Brandon Brock: So exciting. And you got us wrong.

We walked in, and we listened. We didn’t have a script. I mean, yeah, we just walked in to start talking, which is a little bit unusual, because I mean, we have to be scripted to an extent. But yeah, it’s like this you got us and what we really think and I don’t know. It’s kind of, it’s kind of a beautiful

Dr. Trevor Berry: Long form things are beautiful. Thank you guys, for…

Dr. Brandon Brock: You guys are great. We appreciate it.

Dr. Trevor Berry: Now we’ll see you first thing tomorrow.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Bright and early. All right. We’re off to bed, everybody. And yeah, we’re looking forward to more. So look forward to sharing more with you guys on the next podcast. We’ll talk to you guys later. Rock’n’roll. 

Thanks for listening to The Laser Light Show. Be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about Erchnoia lasers, just head on over to erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as Erchonia’s e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.