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Podcast Episode # 19: Lasers Down Under with Dr. Brett Jarosz and Harish Mitter

laser light show

Join Dr. Jarosz and Harish as they are helping pave the way for low-level laser therapy to impact patients in Australia. Erchonia is in the final stages of approval as they expand its footprint as the preeminent therapeutic laser company in the World. If you are a health care provider in Australia, please feel free to contact Harish Mitter for updates on product availability, or contact Erchonia for upcoming lecture dates.



Dr. Chad Woolner: What’s going on everybody? Dr. Chad Waller here with Dr. Andrew Wells and this is episode 19 of the laser light show. And on today’s episode we have our good friends Dr. Brett Jarosz and Harish Mitter from Australia and we’re going to be talking about lasers in Australia. So let’s get started.


Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.

Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, welcome to the show everybody and a special welcome to Dr. Brett Jarosz and Harish Mitter. Dr. Brett is a chiropractic physician down in Australia and Harish is the director, I believe if that’s the right title for Rehacare, which is Australia’s distributor or is or coccineus distributor in Australia. Did I get that? Correct? Both parties? 

 Dr. Brett Jarosz and Harish Mitter: Yep, that’s correct. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome. Yeah. Well, welcome. And we’re, we’re super excited to have you guys on the podcast. I know. You guys are a day ahead of us. So it is bright and early Monday morning for you guys. So we appreciate you guys taking time out of your schedule to be here. And we look forward to chatting with you guys for a few minutes.

 Dr. Brett Jarosz and Harish Mitter: Appreciate you guys doing this on a Sunday evening given up your free time.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Oh, no, no worries at all. So I think maybe a good place to start is you know what’s happening in Australia right now with regard to recording. Because I think sometimes we just assume that Erchonia is US based. We’ve We’ve spoken with folks over in England we spoke with Simon and talked about all the cool stuff that’s happening in England and over in Europe. And you guys are like literally right on the beginning of really cool things happening in Australia. So maybe that might be a good starting point is talking about what’s going on there in Australia right now with Erchonia.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: I’ll leave that one with Harrish just because of that relationship with CGA. 

Harish Mitter: Yeah, that’s correct. Yeah. So just to give you a background, we’ve been working with Erchonia. Since 2015, we have the product for the trading panel led to the laser, working with a podiatrist. It’s been seven years, very consistent in terms of performance in terms of selling and integrating these products across the country and New Zealand, by the way. And we attend conferences, we organize webinars, all those educational activities, making clinicians aware of the benefits of the device of low level lasers. And it’s been going great. And so recently, we know that Kony has been working on amazing products, pain trading pain, and another one is patch reduction. So obviously, we have to follow those regulatory processes, which we are waiting on. Currently, we expect TGA approvals to go through in next three months, then we will be looking forward to introducing pay lasers in Australia and New Zealand.

Dr. Andrew Wells: I just wanted to say one thing, before we get a little bit deeper into the podcast, if you’re if you’re a healthcare provider, if you’re a chiropractor, or somebody’s interested in lasers in Australia, I would really encourage you to go back to some of the previous podcast episodes and listen to some of the those episodes for the different applications for laser therapy and some of the things are going to be available in Australia once that TGA approval comes through because there are some amazing amazing clinical benefits and and lots of different health conditions that these lasers can be used for. Obviously right now, we can treat toenail fungus in Australia, which is a great starting point but there’s so much more. And so if you’re interested if you’re in Australia, and you’re wondering okay, when Why should I use the laser? Why should I consider getting one to go back and listen to some of those episodes and I think You’ll be as excited as we are for this to be available for Ozzy physicians. And we’re gonna dive into that a little bit more in this episode.

Dr. Chad Woolner: My question right out the gates is can you really briefly tell us a little bit about the TGA? I’m assuming that’s like Australia’s equivalent of the FDA, is that a correct assumption?

Harish Mitter: That’s correct. Yeah, they are the regulatory authorities. FDA approval is done that helps TGA to take the process forward. So the Erchonia regulatory team is putting all the documents together. And we’re going to submit an application with TGA TDA will obviously go through make sure it complies with local regulations, and all the documents and information is correct. And once they go through that process, the TGA we don’t use the word approval. So we call it CD registration, approval and all the clinical studies, everything is done by manufacturer, mainly FDA side, besides the TGA will verify everything and then they will say TGA listed products are safe, based on TGS guidelines.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay. Well, that’s got to be both kind of exciting. And also maybe even I can imagine to some degree frustrating because here you’re seeing and hearing all these cool, exciting things that Erchonia is doing in the US and elsewhere. And you’re like, I’m guessing you guys are just chomping at the bit to start getting these things rolling there in Australia. And it sounds like you guys are pretty close, correct?

Harish Mitter: Yes, correct. We feel like we are not far and the wait is almost over. And we do get a lot of clinicians who are in touch with Erchonia through various activities, as you’ve been doing, like fun other activities, podcasts. So we’re still in, clinicians know what’s going on day to come to us through directly and why Erchonia and ask for the questions when can we get our hands on these devices? So obviously, we have to guide them through the process. And there’s many excited people that that’s awesome.

Dr. Andrew Wells: And then we’re so we’re recording this podcast in July of 2022. And from what it sounds like Dr. Brett was saying that we’re maybe a couple a few months out to this FDA. me having asked for FDA registration, potentially TGA sorry, TGA registration, yes. How will Doc’s know about this process once this technology is registered?

Harish Mitter: So then the next process will be we have been working with allied health professionals, that includes physios but arteries, chiropractors, occupational therapists, and so on. So we’ve been in this space for the last 780s. So the first thing we’re going to do is we’re going to have a newsletter sending out all the clinicians saying this product is available with obviously all the clinical benefits. So that’s the information side. And in parallel, we will be running webinars with Brett and will be assisting us in that activity. And then we’ll open up ourselves for attending conferences. So that means we can go out to the market and start to present our product.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome. So it sounds like Dr. Brett, again, you’re kind of in somewhat of a holding pattern, in that you’ve got all the stuff that you’re behind the scenes preparing and you’re kind of just waiting for the green light. Is that kind of a correct way of putting it?

 Dr. Brett Jarosz: Yeah, it’s pretty correct. So at the moment, it’s accumulating the literature and the science, the research, putting all that together. So hopefully, we’ve got very much evidence base sites supported collection of information that we’re going to be able to deliver to healthcare professionals to be able to put laser into their, I guess, clinical armamentarium to be able to try and help us assist patients with other conditions to be able to maybe further enhance conditions they’re already treating and to be able to speed up recovery processes. Lots of different things there. But yeah, it’s right now sitting there, having that information waiting for the TGA accreditation. And then once we’ve got that, as we said, it’ll be a matter of then just getting that information out. My colleagues, my network, delivering that information to say hey, the device is TGA accredited and we are ready to go and start to deliver that information so people can further understand how they can use these devices but also to understanding how the devices actually work and hopefully start to get a cut parison between different types of laser devices also.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, very good. And that brings me to kind of a question for those listening. Can you maybe give us a quick outline of what the current landscape in Australia looks like? In terms of lasers? Are Doc’s using lasers right now in practices? And if so, what does that typically look like?

 Dr. Brett Jarosz: So from the clinician perspective, hemorrhage might be able to give a different perspective from obvious distributions. But the main sort of lasers that are being used right now in Australia, and speaking in my profession, in particular, the chiropractic profession, would be more of the class four types of lasers. So there are a number of different companies already in Australia, using classical type lasers, obviously, with currently being the low level laser therapy, a class two or cold laser or three LT, just the different acronyms that people might see how these lasers, they’re referred to. Most of the lasers that people are using are more or less a class for lasers. And very simplistically, the classes really got to do with the potential damage it can do to someone’s eye, okay, very simple way to look at it in the literature. So, the higher the classing, the greater the risk of damage to the eye. So a class two laser has less risk than a class three, and then the class for those very simple, okay.

Dr. Chad Woolner: And class four is when we start getting into like thermal, right, that has a heat to it, correct?

 Dr. Brett Jarosz: Correct. So and then that’s got to do with the wavelengths basically. So the wavelength has, that number starts to increase, and we start to see this idea of, you know, 800, nanometers, 900, nanometers, 1000, etc. As those wavelengths start to get higher, longer, then we’re starting to see more of these thermal effects. So basically, it becomes more of a heating device.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Okay. And so, right now, you would say that most of the docs if they’re using I mean, I guess a question I would say is, do many doctors use lasers right now as is in Australia? And if so, is it mostly chiropractors? Do physical therapists do medical doctors? What’s that look like?

Dr. Brett Jarosz: So again, I’ll let her expand on this one, I think but from my perspective within my colleagues, and that works, there’s not too many people within my network of colleagues that actually have lasers themselves. There are a few Chiropractic Clinics around that do have lasers. There are a couple of what we’ll call pain clinics around the Melbourne area where I am based, that use lasers and they’re actually more medical clinics. So there are some laser clinics already around from the different professions, medical physiotherapy chiropractic, but speaking on behalf of my personal networks within the chiropractic, there’s not too many clinics around that actually have lasers around they are there, but not to the extent of state where America would be in terms of use of laser. Arish? Have you got anything further from your knowledge?

Harish Mitter: Yeah, I agree with you, Brett. My mind, in my experience, I will say if we just talk about lasers, there’s not much application, except the hot places that Mitch obviously just mentioned with a class full of lasers with a wavelength of 1094, which is to heat. And again, it’s highly penetrating, and obviously, all these safety regulations are involved. So they, in some states, like Queensland, ask why you can’t buy hot lasers authentically without getting radiation. Authorities approval besides TGA is a few years wondering, that’s another thing.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: I’ll go so I saw her. So I just feel like the clinicians that are out there that would listen to this. If you were in Queensland or what’s in Australia, you have to go through a process of getting a radiation license to be able to use one of those lasers in those states.

Harish Mitter: Okay, that’s great. Yeah, that’s great. And again, obviously, for all the safety, you have to have a separate room patiently to be aware of all those risks, which again, so hot lasers are the traditional lasers. And as I said, That’s laser application at the moment. And the second most people use modality is shockwave therapy, for treating pain. And there’s a lot of electrotherapy devices I’ve dropped on the device. It’s been used by therapists as well. But in terms of low level aids, Here’s where Erchonia comes in. To my knowledge, I don’t think there’s anything which teaches it to be a TGA approved low level laser with such a vast clinical evidence and studies done on those devices.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So I’m curious, you know, what this means, or what you guys can speak to in terms of the current demand amongst consumers right now, do you guys foresee this being such that there’s sufficient awareness amongst consumers about this? Or is this going to be like a kind of a brand new concept for the lay public in Australia? What’s that look like? Are you guys aware of what that looks like?

Harish Mitter: Probably all exercising in my experience, again, is from the consumers point of view. Now, things have changed. I’ve seen people and patients, they try to Google things, which are non drug therapies, anything which will cause less side effects. So they are the ones who drive all this and they are vulnerable. The clinician said, Oh, I don’t want to take drugs. ” I want to get but treat my pain with modalities like these loads of low level lasers. Tell me more about it, and how it works on me. So they are the ones who are driving the increase of these devices. So yeah, that’s. So that’s what I’m saying? It’s, I think, happening.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, the reason I asked is, that’s got to be exciting, because it sounds like, you know, this is one of those moments in time, where if there’s a substantial amount of demand, but there’s not a whole lot of supply, the minute that that clearance or that accreditation occurs, it’s going to be a really exciting opportunity for you guys to really see some exciting things happening in clinics across Australia, you know, my guess is, you’re gonna have a lot of dogs who are going to want to get their hands on these to start, you know, helping supply some of that demand that’s there with these consumers. Is that kind of what you’re thinking or seeing, Dr. Brett.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: So yeah, just to echo a little bit of Irish, but also from a different perspective, I guess you could look at the world of social media, for sure the internet has made the world very small, right. And there are different regulatory aspects for health professionals in Australia, and how we’re registered under what’s called APRA. For Australia, the Australian Health Professionals regulation agency. So we have certain rules as being a health care provider as to what we can and can’t do. So for advertising. Sure. But when it comes to America, a little bit more, you can almost do what you want. Sure, whereas we have a lot more restrictions in place. And that’s for the safety of the public. So you don’t mislead the public. That being said, just a little background, you start to think about the fact that now what people can see so easily, I can see someone getting treated on Instagram or on Twitter or on Facebook, and they’re watching laser replication being used and they’re hearing about it or they’re seeing all of these stories from people testimonials, etc. And it’s made the world very small. And as a result, practitioners, people who have got conditions themselves and want I guess some further answers. They’re just very easily picking up their phone and they jump on Instagram, oh, where can I potentially go and find this for myself? And then as Harish said, it’s then the ones who tend to drive this information themselves.

Dr. Chad Woolner: And so the first laser that’s getting the accreditation for Australia is the VRL correct? This is or colonias violet red laser combo handheld. Is that correct?

Dr. Brett Jarosz: Yes, that’s correct.

Dr. Chad Woolner: And then, once that has been accredited, do you foresee the accreditation process for additional lasers being a little bit smoother, faster, easier, or is it not just gonna be the next kind of series of hoops to jump through?

Harish Mitter: Look, I think it’s a spoke to regulatory team and Erchonia they have already done regulatory on London or laser which is a TGA listed product now. So they have done one thing and they will not EBR RL and their feedback is they know the process now it’s just about putting a pause for different products thinking an application through.

Dr. Andrew Wells: The doctor drills maybe you can help us understand some of the physiology behind how low level laser therapy works, what it does, and specifically, what you can do to help your patients suffering with musculoskeletal pain.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: So, again, this is hopefully where we’re going to be going in the coming months, especially for Australia with the introduction of, say, the webinars that we’ll try and build upon. So initially, what we’ll start to look at doing is creating, say, a three, one hour webinar series where we try to start to build and actually develop that understanding a little bit further. So in a very simplistic point of view, from a list of Cisco with a research perspective, we’ve got low level laser therapy, being sort of shown therapeutically, to do three main things, which is basically reducing inflammation, or Dima helping with healing of wounds of deep tissues, etc. And obviously treating some of these nervous system things in pain. Now, when we look at a cornea, and I’ve heard you in the introduction before there, Chad, talking about how of the, I think it’s the 25 FDA clearances, now that exists for low level laser therapy, the coatings got 20 of them. And so when we start to look at, they’re currently being the ones who have been driving the research, to show how these devices work and pen work and supported by the literature, it’s really nice to be able to be affiliated with something that’s got that evidence. So we’ve gone, obviously, pain in terms of neck and shoulder pain has been obviously, FDA cleared with a cornea showing that they can do that better than placebo. And then you’ve got back pain, we’ve got obviously newer laser therapies coming out. So with body sculpting and fat loss, we’ve obviously got the lasers that already exist within Australia, the lamella for always forgetting how to say that properly there Harish but we’ve got the lightest laser now. Yeah, perfect. And then we’ve got that one already existing. So there’s a lot of things that are starting to be supported. But that big background, one is obviously pain, and inflammation. And so when we started to go through some of the physiology, and before we got onto that, we started discussing that my bias is to try and understand the physiology of how conditions may work or how therapies may work. Because if we have a better understanding of that physiology, we hopefully have a greater probability of being successful in achieving what the patient’s outcomes were, what they want their outcomes to be. So we were talking originally about the idea of how we could use medications, off label or physiological processes. And so the idea of as laser the evidence for the science accumulates, but the more we understand how it works, then you have chances of being able to use it off label to just look like medicine will use a drug off label. So if we just give the listeners that example of saying, Well, if you have back pain, you might start off with anti inflammatories or some form of what just pain medication. And as you go through the process of maybe not getting better, or the results that you’re after those medications might change, we might get to a point that says an example they may use antidepressants, and a lot of people might without a lack of understanding of the physiology might turn around and say, Why am I being put on antidepressants, I’m not depressed. And it’s by understanding that the medications for any depressants as an example, an SSRI is all about serotonin, and it’s trying to stimulate serotonin in the brainstem, which is part of the pain modulation process. So if we then have that understanding of physiology, and we can start to understand how the laser is working with the stimulation of light, or photobiomodulation, and how light is actually been stimulating our cells, and the various cellular processes, and it’s basically, simplistically, it’s enhancing your own cellular processes to allow your cells to do their jobs properly. And the main product that seems to be behind that is the actual wavelength of the actual laser. So the color of the light, and the different influences those wavelengths and colors are imparting on yourself. Somewhere summary of high points.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah, that’s a great summary. And one of the things I think that’s important for doctors to know, when they’re thinking about using laser therapy, they have all these options, right? They have manual therapies of chiropractic care, they have acupuncture, they have medications, they have physiotherapy, they have stretching, exercise, lots of different nutrition, and a lot of ways to address pain. And one of the nice things maybe you can say to this: When you’re using an Erchonia laser, to look class to laser, that there are no known contraindications and no known side effects to using light or using lasers to treat these issues. Whereas, you know, some maybe worst case scenarios with medication you have, maybe side effects are you have a non-wanted effect on the body, maybe if you go to your chiropractor, you get adjusted, maybe you feel a little bit. So there are, you know, unwanted effects from other types of therapies. But with laser therapy, there are no, I should say, low level laser therapy, there are no known side effects, is that correct.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: So, it all comes down basically, to what we understand so far with wavelengths and then like power, so as the amount of energy that’s being imparted from that laser, so the wavelength and the amount of what watts that that laser is actually using, so most of the literature is all coming about this amount of spare like, half a joule to like up to four joules per centimeter squared, or going into the fancy science, this seems to be the therapeutic range of power. And then as we start to move into higher wattage, lasers, then those lasers are imparting more power. And that’s where issues of say, look, let’s go to the complete end of the spectrum here and polarize it say, with medical, surgical devices, where we’ll use lasers to burn hair, to laser treatment for actual hair removal. So we’re using these higher powered lasers to try and actually ablate cellular processes to stop that, then we go to the other end of the spectrum, the lower end of the spectrum, which is about the lower energy than stimulating and enhancing your cellular process to so when it comes to the contraindications there, does not appear for the class to lasers to be any sort of contraindications with the exception of most things, which would be inside pregnancy, or pacemakers, because we don’t usually put those types of populations into research studies. So as a result, we always have to say with those types of groups of people, we don’t know if there’s a contraindication in there, or not. So we’ve generally said that this is just because we can’t do studies on those groups of people ethically. So outside of that, there doesn’t appear in literature to be any of those risks with the class too. But as we start to move up into these class four style lasers, then we can have some of these issues, obviously, with wood burning and heating, etc. tissues.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I think this is a good point that you’re making . I think doctors need to understand that there’s a difference in the class of lasers. And it has, it’s not, when we’re talking about the therapeutic effects of laser therapy, we’re not so much talking about power penetration. Some of the things that I think are spoken a lot when you’re referring to lasers, it has more to do with the wavelength, it’s the wavelength that’s important. And the unique thing about this particular wavelength that we’re using in this, for these types of therapies for pain for healing, or decrease inflammation are not the types of wavelengths that would harm somebody, but they’re also lower wavelengths. And so sometimes Doxon glows more, we need more power, we need more penetration, especially if you’re thinking you’re going to do something in a deeper part, deeper region of the body that needs to be high power, it needs to be penetrating, but that’s not the case.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: Correct. That’s for us. But the literature is starting to accumulate more and more that the wavelength actually can create some of that penetration also. So there’s even some studies being done, say, in the let’s say liposuction area that have been showing that using laser in conjunction with liposuction, they’ve been able to show that the 635 wavelength, which is the red wavelength that the Erchonia uses, that 635 nanometer wavelength can actually penetrate up to six centimeters through abdominal tissue. So they’ve been able to show that. And so when we start to look at some of that data of, as you said, penetration versus power, most of the literature as we start to accumulate it, the majority of it was suggested the therapeutic effects, it’s got to do with the wavelength. And so the color of the light at a specific wavelength, so those nanometer wavelength, that number appears to be the thing that it’s showing where the therapy’s occurring, and for pain, inflammation, and so RAM is 635 nanometer wavelength where most of the data has been accumulated.

Dr. Chad Woolner: I want to shift topics just ever so slightly based off of something you said that was, I thought, kind of intriguing in terms of a topic that maybe we can dive into a little bit more And it might be a little bit on the speculative side. But it’s still kind of interesting and fascinating. And I’d like to go there. And I think it would be entertaining for us if nothing else. But you made mention of something that I think is really important, a very, very insightful observation you made. And that is this idea that the more that we understand the mechanism, or you use the term physiology, the more we have the ability to make clinical decisions and judgments. Potentially, we’ll call this tangentially, because of an understanding of the mechanism, not necessarily because of something that maybe has been sufficiently researched with, you know, ballistic, because I mean, let’s face it, like, there are inherent constraints with reality due to costs and logistics associated with studies, studies are not good, well, designed studies are not cheap. They’re time consuming. They require a lot of moving parts and a lot of logistics. And so we can’t base everything we do in the real world, you have a patient in front of you, you have to make decisions for the benefit of the patient. And so as much as we would love to, in a theoretical sense, have peer reviewed, double blind, placebo controlled studies for every single thing and every single intervention that we do for patients. That’s not realistic. And so what we can do, though, to that point that you said is, we can use good clinical judgment based on a thorough understanding of mechanisms of physiology and those sorts of things. So to that end, my question and or maybe the conversation we could steer is, where do you see things going moving forward? In terms of maybe some of those applications right now with our understanding? Because clearly, we have a pretty decent understanding, but my guess is twos. We’re just beginning to scratch the surface. On some level two, hypothetically speaking, what are maybe some of these applications based on our current understanding and potential understanding moving forward, and I’ll leave that to both of you.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: Clinically, the personal one that I’m very interested to see where it’s going is transcranial application. We start to look at the idea of, obviously, things that are very, with us, America, as an example, very costly from the healthcare systems. So your Alzheimer’s dementia is a neurodegenerative disease, right? And so understanding therapeutic effects of various wavelengths. And then understanding from previous studies, this is the evidence that we’re starting to see if accumulated, just like we see with pharmaceuticals to probably lead the way in understanding how to do RCTs and double blind studies. So they put their drugs to the test, and they do all those comparisons that you said, which takes a lot of money and a lot of time. But when we’ve got those bits of information, we understand how it works, and we understand the risks, etc. We can take that data, and we can apply it to other things. And that basically becomes a hypothesis for the next clinical study. Right? Literally, that’s what it is. It’s basically philosophy, until you put it in a written word in a document to put a research application in, and now it becomes a hypothesis. And then the scientific process then shows, yes, that did work on No, it didn’t. That’s true, false. Now, it’s into the realm of science. And now we can be philosophical about that and pose my next question, which then can become the hypothesis with the next study. So until we get to that point, we are then taking the data that we know as you said, and then trying to use that physiology. I keep using that word physiology. But in this we’ve got photobiomodulation that’s having cellular effects, changing biochemistry, physiological processes at the cellular level. And with our understanding of that, coming back to the thing that I’m very interested in is, and there are some studies that are taking place right now, I don’t know how much I can disclose. But there is some transcranial work being done, in particular, what’s called neurological disorders. And that’s the area that I’m really interested to see how we can start to use this and let’s use one of the most, I guess, highly topical condition has been concussion, sure, and persistence symptoms. So it’s high prevalence in the media, obviously, without collegian sport and combat sport athletes in particular. But then understanding that concussion is a topic that is happening the majority of times off the sporting field, right. And then if we’ve got an understanding of the neuro metabolic cascade of concussion, from animal models, that most of these things start before they can get to humans. We understand how that chemistry works. We understand how laser chemistry works, then we could potentially be able to implement strategies to then influence that to better serve people in the community.

Harish Mitter: She got a look I would like to add something to it Brett, we as I said based on but it is a using low level laser for treating personnel or learning or laser. So they have understood over the years how hard working and what’s happening inside in all the chemical reactions happening. So they are applying not only for fingernails, they are applying with a nail former nail surgery, nail psoriasis. I have people who said they have treated osteomyelitis bone infections in two areas. Wow. So basically they understood how it works and what were any side effects if there’s anything, but they think now they know how it works. The quarterback modulation height working, let us apply another thing. The only limitation is they think, again, I don’t know if you have seen that or a laser. The foot goes into a little compartment and the lasers on the top. The only limitation is they’re saying hang on how do we get the lasers out? We want to feed on other products.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, yeah. So all the more reason to get the aprl?

Harish Mitter:  Yeah, yeah. All the more reason to get these other ones out there for sure. So those podiatrists, they just said they’ve been using this for five, seven years. Once we have the TGA approval, Brett, I’m sure those guys will say come on one.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: Yeah, absolutely. And yeah, and I think that’s the very exciting part of the evolution of low level laser therapy or photobiomodulation, whatever group sort of how we want to turn this, but the case studies that I’ve been able to witness myself through this application has had me very, very excited. So to share a case study of use was a young adolescent 11 year old who had fractured their lateral femoral condyle. playing sport, and obviously with a fracture such as that. So significant bone bruising with a fracture spread through the middle of it. And naturally, you’re gonna be non weight bearing for weeks, obviously been going through the process of building up your rehab to get back to sport. Now I saw Erchonia ways of being used twice a day on that fracture. And I watched that adolescent back claim this sport, three and a half weeks now, that’s a case study N equals one. But it’s when you see those things with your own eyes, it starts to make you go, well, like that, based on physiological processes that we understand that just enhanced those rapidly. And that to me is very, very exciting.

Dr. Andrew Wells: You said, you said three and a half weeks. That’s amazing.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: That’s amazing what basketball was, three and a half weeks back playing basketball. So they were literally non weight bearing for about a week and a half, they were starting some of their non weight bearing rehab at that time, being laser twice a day. And in three and a half weeks, we’re already back to the point of being able to play basketball again. That’s incredibly one stands out in my mind and absolutely blows me away.

Dr. Chad Woolner: No, and I hear I hear what you’re saying there in terms of, you know, the case studies. And the thing that I would just say is that just in the short period of time that we’ve been on this podcast, we have just heard some really incredible stories just like that for a whole wide range of different things. And so it’s really cool to hear these, these stories and these examples of how lasers are being used. And some quite frankly, we’ll just claim it or we’ll just term it as miraculous things that are happening. It’s really incredible.

Dr. Andrew Wells: And really, guys, what we’re talking about is healing, you know, we’re looking for clearance and registration here in Australia to start using some of this technology. But I think sometimes that these sort of therapies and, and technologies and whatever the, you know, whatever the modality we’re using, tends to kind of get siloed into a certain specific thing. Like we’re gonna use this pill for this one thing. We’re gonna use this adjustment for this one thing, but the interesting thing about using what we’re hearing from not only the research but from clinicians who are using this therapy is that when you’re using it on the body, it helps the body heal, period, it rapidly speeds up healing and I’ll give you an example. Paris you kind of brought this idea up. In the US there’s a lot of patients coming in for body sculpting. So they’re using this laser on their belly on their thighs, areas they want to lose weight, and what the patients are reporting as a side effect is they’re also feeling better, they’re digesting food better. They’re there, their intestines work better. So the side effect of losing weight, so they’re shrinking fat cells, but the side effect is that their body starts to work better. And I think that’s one of the amazing things about this, this therapy, not only from a patient perspective, but a research perspective, it just enhances the body’s ability to do what it already does better. And I don’t know too many therapies that do that, and that offer that. And I think that’s one of the interesting things as this technology emerges in Australia, is that doctors are going to find this as a tool that can be used across lots of different professions, but also across a lot of different conditions. And that’s going to be exciting for you guys as well, especially since there’s a huge runway here in Australia for dogs to embrace this type of therapy.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: Oh, absolutely already. Between pain, musculoskeletal things that, you know, I guess, let’s say gets categorized into some of the most prevalent presentations in allied health presentation into those clinics, physios, cars, Astilleros, OTs, etc. Those pain, inflammation presentations, great, but then obviously from your nerve, peripheral neuropathy is etc, etc, you know, from nerve injuries, those types of things, too, then we may look at some of your carpal tunnel, maybe it was one of the more polarized things sciatica, diabetic neuropathy, things such as that that are presenting healing, what you’ve had a surgery and healing of scar tissue, those types of things that all these different little subtleties you think pain and inflammation they are as a surgery, scar tissue healing, the recovery of the inflammation and the pain post surgery, helping those cellular tissues, sorry, the cellular processes to enhance the healing of the tissues, etc. So it’s just that’s so exciting to have another modality that you could use as an adjunct or as a primary, to be able to help certain presentations. I mean, you think that I know some of the things that are happening in the US alone, where we’re in a situation with COVID. And people weren’t allowed in Australia and Melbourne, in particular, people weren’t allowed to attend their practitioners, unless it was basically an absolute emergency where it was a life or death situation. So people were only allowed to come to see us. Very, basically, if it stopped them from having to go to hospital when it wasn’t a hospital required situation. Now, if you’ve got a situation where we can’t see people, and in America, they’re using laser rental programs, right, where practitioners have gotten multiple lasers, multiple handheld DVRs. And as a result, a patient can pay a whatever the fee is, I can pay a daily fee or weekly fee, whatever it is to take that laser home and be trained to how to do that laser therapy for themselves because it is one of these things that is going to be relatively safe with the exception of what your eyes so we can provide glasses to protect the eyes, running through those processes and people can laser themselves at home. And how that in a time when telemedicine was so important, can serve as an important therapeutic approach for people when they couldn’t see anyone face to face.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Right. Yeah, it’s exciting to see all you know, again, I think we’re just barely scratching the surface as to the potential of what’s available there. I’m curious if you guys are planning on heading up to the US for our colonias event in November. I’m just curious if you guys will be there because we will most definitely be there.

Dr. Brett Jarosz: Very fortunate that I got the opportunity that I’ll be presenting there at the ammonia meeting on that first weekend in November. So myself and Trevor Barea putting together, sort of a six hour presentation divided up between the two of us. Fantastic. I’m really, really looking forward to that. Very, very good.

Harish Mitter: Look, I have left late for me. I’ll talk to you more tomorrow. And more likely, I’ll join you as well.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s awesome. Fantastic. Cool. Well, dogs will, Dr. Brett and Harish we really appreciate you guys taking time out of your schedule to be here with us. And for those Doc’s, particularly Doc’s in Australia who might be interested in kind of staying in the loop, is there a place that you would recommend they go to kind of connect with you to kind of again stay informed as to what’s going on?

Harish Mitter: Also just said at the moment, they have a coney Contact or rehab case contacts, put their additional interest on those websites, or call us. And we are making our own list of people who we need to get in touch with once. Once we have the product available.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Perfect, awesome. Well, we’ll make sure that in the notes, we have all the links and everything. So any dogs who are in your neck of the woods will definitely have the ability to reach out to you guys. With Andrew, was there anything else you wanted to bring up? No. So awesome. Any final parting words of wisdom for colleagues in Australia or us up here in the US or anywhere else in the world for that matter?

Dr. Brett Jarosz: For Australia, specifically, I’m going to say be patiently excited for the next couple of months. So I am really looking forward to this, the next couple of months. And once we get that TGA accreditation, it should be some pretty exciting times as this starts to roll out in Australia.

Harish Mitter: Yeah, that’s gotta be looking forward, it will continue. As a distributor of the product, we will be looking forward to serving and providing all the services that are needed including, you know, buying, renting all those and obviously, your clinical education will be looking forward to those that supply their services.

Dr. Chad Woolner: That’s cool. Yeah, it’s gonna be really cool. And it’s gonna be exciting, I can tell that you guys are just, like, ready to be unleashed. And so that’s gonna be a really, really exciting opportunity, when all that takes place. And what’s exciting about it is it’s just around the corner. It’s just, you know, I can tell that it’s not too far distant and so it’s gonna be we’re looking forward to that for sure. So, Doc’s, we hope this has been really valuable for you. We hope it’s exciting to hear all the cool things that are happening in the world and particularly in Australia, and we look forward to sharing more with you guys on upcoming episodes. Have an amazing day. We’ll talk to you guys later. Thanks for listening to the laser light show, be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers, just head on over to or codea.com There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as are CONUS e-community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.



Thanks for listening to the laser light show, be sure to subscribe and give us a review. If you’re interested in learning more about our Erchonia lasers, just head on over to Erchonia.com. There you’ll find a ton of useful resources including research news and links to upcoming live events, as well as the Erchonia community where you can access for free additional resources including advanced training and business tools. Again, thanks for listening and we will catch you on the next episode.