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Podcast Episode #6: Laser Power vs. Penetration with Dr. Dan Murphy

laser light show

On today’s episode we sit down with Dr. Dan Murphy to discuss a frequently discussed and debated aspect of low level laser therapy:  Power vs. Penetration.  Does power matter?  Does it make a difference with regard to clinical outcomes?  Listen in as Dr. Murphy shares some powerful insights.

To connect with Dr. Murphy and learn more about his work check out his website at:


References from this episode:

Check out Zapped by Bob Berman

Learn more about the Arndt-Shulz Rule

850nm Study Published in Molecular Neurobiology in 2018

Check Out Dr. Mercola’s Book The Ketofast

Check Out Dr. Steven Gundry’s Book The Keto Code

Check Out Sam Apple’s Book on Otto Warburg

Check Out Painful Cervical Trauma by Dr. David Tollison

Check Out Erchonia’s Studies here

Trevor Marshall’s study on Electrosmog and Automimmune Disease

Watch the 60 Minutes Segment on “Havana Syndrome”

Check out Dr. Amy Yasko’s book on Nutrigenomics here

Check out “Laser Phototherapy: Clinical Practice and Scientific Background” by Lars Hode and Jan Turner here


Dr. Chad Woolner: All right, welcome to the show everybody Dr. Chad Warner here with Dr. Andrew Wells and our special guest, Dr. Dan Murphy. On today’s episode six, we are going to be talking about power versus penetration. So let’s get to it. 


Growing up in Portland, Oregon, I used to love going to laser light shows at the Oregon Museum of Science and Industry. They would put on these amazing light shows with incredible designs synced up to some of my favorite music. From the Beatles to Pink Floyd to Jimmy Hendrix and Metallica; they were awesome. Little did I know then that lasers would have such a profound effect on my life decades later. As a chiropractic physician, I have seen first-hand just how powerful laser therapy is in helping patients struggling with a wide range of health problems. As the leader in laser therapy, Erchonia has pioneered the field in obtaining 20 of the 23 total FDA clearances for therapeutic application of lasers. On this podcast, we’ll explore the science and technology and physiology behind what makes these tools so powerful. Join me as we explore low-level laser therapy. I’m Dr. Chad Woolner along with my good friend Dr. Andrew Wells and welcome to The Laser Light Show.

All right, welcome to the show. Dr. Murphy. We are super excited to have you here with us today. Thank you. So today’s episode, we were going to be talking about power versus penetration, a pretty common kind of hot button topic, I think when it comes to things like lasers and those sorts of things. So you’re going to kind of throw us a little bit of a curveball here when it comes to this topic. So I’m gonna kind of hand it over to you and let you kind of set the stage for what we’re gonna be talking about and throw your curveball. So pitch away.

Dr. Dan Murphy: Well, I would just start with a rhetorical question, the sun has a certain amount of power. Some of the waves that come off of the Sun penetrate the Earth’s atmosphere, some do not get the same power. It’s the same power, what is different is the wavelength. So a lot of times practitioners lay people, they think that somehow if you increase the power it increases the penetration, when in fact it appears that penetration is more linked to wavelength than power. The best book hands down to understand this if anyone wants to get into this and get it down. Read Bob Berman’s book from 2017 called zapped. Berman’s an interesting character and that he is not a healthcare provider. He’s an astronomer. But all of a sudden, all of these confused ideas that practice people have got straightened out. So just as an example, we know that the Sun generates gamma rays. Gamma rays ever hit the surface of the Earth, it’ll kill us all. It’s not survivable with gamma rays. You can’t survive very many of them because they have way too much energy. But the good news is they don’t penetrate the Earth’s atmosphere. X rays also do not penetrate the Earth’s atmosphere. And ultraviolet kind of doesn’t. Ultraviolet rays are A, B and C. Ultraviolet C do not penetrate the Earth’s atmosphere, ultraviolet B and ultraviolet a do. The difference in all of those things gamma x ray and ultraviolet is the wavelength. The key is the wavelength. If you read Bob Berman’s book you get an understanding that there is an amalgamation of two Nobel Prizes, the 1980 Nobel Prize by Max Planck, a German and another Nobel Prize by another German we probably heard more often. Albert Einstein 1921. When you amalgamate their Nobel Prizes, you come up with a very simple Junior High mathematical formula. That’s the key, the key is the mathematical formula. The mathematical formula is that the wavelength, multiplied by the frequency, always equals the speed of light. So the wavelength, all laser devices, all of them, they’ll tell you the wavelength, so that you start understanding that if the wavelength goes up, the frequency meaning the number of times the wave goes through at a second has to go down because because when you multiply the two, they’re inverse, they always have to equal the speed of light, which is what 186 280 miles per hour round 186,000 miles per hour. In per hour, I said they’re wrong miles per second. That’s the speed of light. So when you look at these, these these issues, that as the wavelength goes to the left, meaning you get a shorter wavelength, it doesn’t penetrate as much, but it has higher levels of energy. The wave forms that people should think about is the wave form that has high energy, but still has appreciable penetration. And that’s, again, it’s based upon the wavelength, it’s not based upon the power. So when I advise, I’ve rarely looked at power at all other than just sort of understanding. If you get a longer wavelength, it penetrates so poorly that they have to have the power to get anything at all to happen. But if you ever look at healing energy, what happens is, when you have a longer wavelength, you sacrifice the healing energy, so that even when they say this wavelength penetrates better, it often only penetrates better, because it’s sacrifice, sacrifice healing energy. So the key is trying to make sure you have appreciable amounts of healing energy in the wavelength. And then the big curveball, the big curveball is called the Art Schultz law. Look it up, anyone can look it up google it, essentially, what Schultz says and aren’t Schultz, another couple Germans from the late 1800s. So they predate Einstein and Max Planck. If you look at what those guys come up with, everything that is good for you, will become bad for you. If you overdo it, there is an attitude that is that more is better, you think like money more money is better, or you know, more chocolate is better, whatever. And anything that is good for you, will become bad for you. And this includes lasers. So to claim that a laser is superior because it is more than a competitor. I completely reject that. Because I think it violates the artificial slot of biology. And so consequently, what you have to look at is certain mathematical principles that will optimize the healing energy. Because if you go beyond that, it’s not linear, you don’t get more healing energy, it starts to drop off. In fact, there are studies that have said that it’ll drop off to the point where the benefit is negligible. It’s essentially a race. There’s also some studies, not best studies, but interesting studies that say, if you do too much of these waveforms, it can actually damage the cell membrane and damage the cellular DNA. And so that is somewhat concerning. Now, the reason those things are not completely fair, they’re interesting, not completely fair. They are human cell studies fibroblast, but they’re in a petri dish. So in other words, they’re not in vivo in life. They’re in vitro, meaning in a lab. And they can take human cells to expose them to this same wavelength, and they can expose it for longer periods of time. Or they can up the energy with a call joules per centimeter squared. And they can show that at that there’s a peak, and then it starts to go downhill. And then there’s actually some damage. So the result is I when we asked about penetration versus wavelength, my whole thought is I, I think that the key is the wavelength. And then a lot of curveballs start coming out and they make people mad, and I don’t blame them. Because if you suddenly have to question almost everything you learn. Studies start coming out in a wide range of publications, claiming that exposure to longer wavelengths, the wavelengths that penetrate better, longer wavelengths can actually cause damage, because they are flipping open the voltage gated calcium ion channel and altering the shape of the vitamin D receptor. If you look at that article from molecule of neurobiology in 2018. They say that it’s somewhere around 850 nanometers, because of the 850 thing we are, we read the work of Martin Paul from Washington State University. We just came out with another new study. We read the work of Li Li from Children’s Hospital in Oakland, California, published in Science reports, in 2017. We started to read Joe Mercola, his book called Keto fast 2019. And he has a section on infrared saunas, all of them have similar claims, and that is, longer wavelengths can actually cause damage. What is really interesting to me personally, is about nine weeks ago, 60 Minutes did a section on Havana syndrome. Havana syndrome is a conciliation of signs and symptoms that are unexplainable in the fact that all diagnostic assessments are normal, and they are starting to believe that they are pulsed waveforms that are longer than 850 nanometers. The result is I am very skeptical that 850 nanometers is a good therapeutic range. I like less than 850. In fact, I like the visible range primarily. I like you know, somewhere between 407 100 nanometers, because I think that those waveforms do not have enough energy to ionize like gamma x ray ultraviolet rays, but they do have enough energy to create a healing cascade. That is so awesome. And by the way, if anybody wants to read about it most recently, read the Keto code book by cardiologist Steven Gundry which is a 2022 copyrighted book. This is his fourth book, if you read that he talks about the eight things that one must do if they want to go the distance mentally and physically. It’s interesting how he talks about the applications of the red wave form, which is part of what we therapeutically do, we do the wave form that has appreciable energy. And it is below the levels of the aren’t Schultz bell shaped curve, which is technically called hormesis. It’s called the harm meeting, the hormetic curve, which is really important for us as clinicians, what I reject as a chiropractor, and again, I’ve been doing this probably longer than most probably because I’m older than most and been practicing for longer than most, I reject the concept in laser therapy. In light therapy, I reject the concept that more is better. It appears to me that more starts to fall off and actually cause harm, I collect the studies that would make that claim. And then I also reject the claim that a longer wavelength is better because it penetrates better. Even though that is a true statement. It sacrifices healing energy, and they don’t heal as well, which is why they tend to have to crank up the power on the device. I like lower amounts of power or lower wavelengths that are still not ionizing, but are proven to cause. healings specifically said since the wavelengths that we’re using in the 635. They target the rate limiting protein enzyme for energy production. It’s called cytochrome c oxidase, it’s number four or five and the electron transport chain. I like that concept a lot, particularly since I’m a big fan of the of the cancer work of Otto Warburg, if you read about his Nobel Prize in 1931, if you read the book on on his life that came out last year 2021 by a guy named Sam apple, and you realize that that Otto Warburg discovered the mitochondria and he discovered cytochrome c oxidase which is the fourth out of five enzymes in the electron transport chain. And the result is you can influence that noncontroversial red light and red light has good healing energy and good depth of penetration. And if you learn how to use the device, right or if you put it on a motor, you realize you can’t exceed the hormetic threshold you get really good outcomes with with no side effects. So you asked me a question. I kind of like death all wrapped up but in essence that’s what I would say unless you guys want to explore more and ask me some more questions.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Yeah. So this man, this brings me back to some of my physics classes and things that I haven’t really looked at in a long time. But the question that I have for you is how do doctors know if they’re considering using laser therapy in their practice? And on patients? How do they know? What is especially if they’re not research inclined? They just want to know, hey, how do I pick a good laser? How do I know if it’s doing the things that I wanted to do? How would doctors know the difference between research and good claims versus marketing and hype? Because I think there’s a lot of that out there. And I think some of these conversations, this conversation we’re having may come across as confusing. What would you say to that? 

Dr. Dan Murphy: Well, I think that there’s a lot of propaganda out there. And it’s mostly used for marketing. For me, the decision was through the school of hard knocks. And my personal story on it is that I did PII. And I’m good at it. And I’ve just done it this year, my 35th PII. 2022 Because I was using a laser, I picked up that book by David Tolleson called painful cervical trauma. And he’s kind of a section in there. It’s a 1992 copyright. So he’s got a section there about how you can accelerate the healing with a red laser of whiplash, injured peso, so I get a red laser. And it cost me You know, I don’t know, $800 or something like that back in 1992. A long time ago. I don’t know much about it, but I’m using it. And my observation is, it’s making a difference. It’s helping people, it’s accelerating healing, it’s dropping their pain and doing everything that I want it to do. And the case went to a trial, and I lost it, because it did not have FDA market clearance. And so I thought, okay, from the Wizard trial, when I realized that there’s got to be a device out there with FDA MARKET CLARITY, and that’s why I did my due diligence, and figured out that there is one and it got the FDA market claims that your juicer to or Erchonia, it was the at the time the only laser to have FDA market colors for pinion the author’s neck shoulder study that actually got the the FDA market clearance. So I started using these devices. And then I just realized that maybe I don’t know, and some others can tell you more than me, let’s say and this is me just rounding it. Let’s say there’s 23 ft market clearances for laser therapy, Erchonia, has 20 of the 23. So I’m going to include that they now have aftermarket clinics that are paying anywhere in the body. They’ve got aftermarket clearance for chronic low back pain. So just looking at who’s actually doing the research and getting it published, and actually making the applications to the Food and Drug Administration submitting primary work. To me, that means a lot if a company doesn’t have that I’m a lot more skeptical about it. So that’s the first thing I would look at. The other thing is that often, the studies have to be done by someone who is independent. And so for example, I would look at a study out of the University of Illinois, find kidney fibrosis. And they just mentioned, hey, we use intercolonial lasers, we have nothing to do with them. I look at a study that came out of a veterinarian journal treating dog cancer, and they quickly say we don’t have anything to do with our company, but we use an accumulation in other words, they’re independent from the company to me that that means a lot because so many studies are are messed up if you want to know how messed up we are. Read the 2022 copyrighted book, sickening by John Abramson from Harvard, you realize he says that, essentially all this debt is by the pharmaceutical companies to our agenda, and that they’re doing their own research, and that their their their doctrine, their own data, and they’re getting it through the editorial boards of the different journals. And he talks about it in a way that’s very elegant and very disturbing. And I think that any device can fall into those same categories if you’re not careful. So I like to see independent research. I like to see research that is replicated. And I like to see who’s actually submitting the real studies to the Food and Drug Administration and not just applying for a same or similar Work device and getting an approval versus actually doing the real research and getting the approval. That’s why when the world that I live in, in the medical world, I need real company because I have to justify, I’ve been talking about anyone that’s been listening to me recently has I’ve been showing people a 2018 pie case that I did. And lizard was a part of it, and how I would introduce the laser to the jars as part of the core presentation, and how would I do it? What are the questions, it asks me what studies what I would what I say influenced me and see if we can get them marked as exhibits for the trial and try one perfect, by the way, but just because I have the opportunity to do that with the leisure that I’m using, they went really, really well. And so just if our company didn’t go through the jumps of doing the research and getting those studies submitted to the Food and Drug Administration, they would make my presentation very, very different and very, very, very much more difficult.

Dr. Andrew Wells: Going back to Dr. Murphy, the art Schultz lot. So, and I’ve heard this from other manufacturers claiming, hey, we use the same wavelength. Right? It’s the same wavelength as Erchonia, it’s the same. So they’re kind of piggybacking off the research they’ve done. Are there any of these you talked about, there are some other variables that open up in terms of the length of time, potentially the power that the device is using? What are the variables that we’re seeing out there that would differentiate or that are out there that could skew the results for the patient? And I think the art Schultz was one of those, can you can you speak to that? 

Dr. Dan Murphy: Yeah, I think I can maybe  in a little bit different fashion than your question in that. It’s as far as I can tell, the wavelength has nothing to do with art shouldst law, the art art show slot is based upon joules per centimeter squared, which is basically the milliwatts multiplied by time in seconds. Sure. So that a lot of companies can have the exact same wavelength. I mean, red is red, it’s the same wavelength. What matters then is how do you get to the five jobs percentage square? Well, you multiply the power of the device, watts, or milli watts, times seconds. And it’s really easy. It’s like a junior high math problem. It’s really easy to do. So you start thinking, Okay, I’m going to use this device for how long? And that gives you the joules per centimeter squared. Let me share with you one of the real cases, here’s a real case. An attorney calls me and he goes, Hey, I’m defending a chiropractor in a malpractice case, and I go, okay, and he goes, your name came up as a potential expert. And I was wondering if I could have you looked at the case? I go, Sure, he goes, the allegation is that the patient is claiming an entry from a low level as a therapist, and I go, okay, so he sends me a file. So I go through the thing, and I remember I call him back when he goes, so what do you think? And I go, Well, I go, let me just start on your terminology. I go, have you just answered his questions? Do you have $17 in your wallet? He goes, Yes, I go, do you consider $17 to be a low amount of money? He goes, Yes, I go, do you have $25,000 in your wallet? He goes, No, I go, do you consider $25,000 to be a low amount of money? He goes, No, I go. You gave me this case telling me that it was low level laser therapy, and yet just changed the word dollars to milliwatts. The laser I use is 17 milliwatts per diode. The laser use in your case is 25,000 milliwatts. Does that say that? It says 25 Watts. Well, 25 Watts is 25,000 milliwatts that I go. It will take them zero time to do a lit search and show that anything over 500 milliwatts is not considered to be low level, you have 25,000. The result is even if the wavelength is the same to hit someone with that much power has problems because by the time you turn it on and turn it off, you’ve already exceeded the power threshold hormetic threshold, you’ve exceeded the art Schultz law. And you’ve gone up and down the belt, the bell shaped curve. I think that because this is what I thought was the most genius thing I saw with Erchonia, the archtops law, joules per centimeter squared per centimeter squared, as soon as you move the diode, it resets the clock. So Erchonia ended up putting their diodes on a motor. And the result is they slowly turn the diode so that every fraction of a second, it’s a different Joel per centimeter squared is a different centimeter squared. The result is you cannot exceed the hormetic threshold, even if you put it on all day long every day, which is not really necessary. Anyway, our typical protocol is a 10 Minute approach. But we use the F x and the F x has the rotating diodes, which you could always have staff do it, my partner, Michelle would often have staff do it. But once you make the investment in buying the device that has the motor, you don’t have to have a staff person to do it, it’s unattended, and you just put it on the spot of your concern. And you put in the pulses that are best for that syndrome. And you just hit the button and walk away. And so even today we did patients even today prior to me getting on to this, this, I don’t know what to call this podcast. And it’s just it’s so awesome because it’s unintended. And you can flood the system with the photons without ever worrying about exceeding the hormetic threshold. And without generating any heat. And without because our waveform is less than 850 nanometers. I am increasingly concerned that waveforms over 850 nanometers are biologically problematic. I collect the data on that including as I said this last week, I got yet another study by Martin Paul from Washington State University. And I think there’s a lot of concerns about electro smog or electro pollution. Electro smog would be the 2017 article from neurological research by Trevor Marshall. Electro pollution would be the subtitle of the book by Robert Becker in his 1990 book cross currents. When you start to look at this and you look at the Avada syndrome, but 60 minutes profile nine weeks ago, and you start thinking oh my gosh, is anyone anyone Google Havanna syndrome. These are waveforms that are really being kind of in this zone that a lot of devices that are used for therapy therapy are in those wedges. 

Dr. Andrew Wells: I think there’s a downside to it. I think that our doctor, we need to talk about no problem. We talked about her Vontaze, her vana syndrome, Havana, Cuba, Cuba, they’re using like they were, I guess accused of using sound with sound waves to effect. It wasn’t causing people to become deaf. Is that right?

Dr. Dan Murphy: Well, it’s a syndrome that has a constellation of signs and symptoms, which includes tinnitus, but also brain fog, confusion, fatigue, sleep disturbance, cognitive problems, the list is actually quite long. It first appeared in Embassy personnel in Havana, Cuba, and hence the name Havana syndrome. But they’ve now isolated it around the world profile and 60 minutes, nine weeks ago, it will scare you. But it’s not so much sound. It’s pulsed electromagnetic wave forms that they are not using, as far as I can tell with the intention of harming people. They’re using it as a part of espionage to lift data off of devices, but they can’t target it close enough. If you’re in the area, you’re being hit by these waveforms. And the evidence is that it flips open the voltage gated calcium ion channel and alters the shape of the vitamin D receptor, both of which are incredibly problematic for people. When you just do a Google search on avana syndrome or a PubMed search on it, you’ll see there’s a lot of data out there. And the fact that of all the things that 60 minutes could do, they would give it a double segment about nine weeks ago. Very scary, very disturbing. And as clinicians were clinicians, we see people every day who I believe in my heart have a vana syndrome, and they’re getting it because they have a genetic or an infant Our mental sensitivity to certain waveforms, well, when that stuff starts coming out that if you go over 850 nanometers, you’re flipping open the voltage gated calcium ion channels. This is very problematic, as Amy Jasco says in her book on, on her second book on epigenetics. Glutamate is the gun. Calcium is the bullet that takes out the neuron. Calcium is a boat. So if you open the voltage gated calcium ion channel, historically, though, from the work of Russell Blaylock and others, you flip it open with the with the amino acid neurotransmitter glutamate, but they realize you can also flip it open with certain waveforms and these waveforms are rounded greater than 850 nanometers, which a lot of devices have them. And I am very skeptical that that is good for people. We have a brand protocol where big brain practitioners do a lot of brain trauma and stuff. And we’ve already seen, I believe seven cases where people come into us saying that they believe their brain has been damaged by a different device that they thought would be therapeutic. But actually, people believe it harms them. And this is why you look okay, what are the common denominators, too much energy and too long of a wavelength. That’s what we see as the common denominator. So we have tricks that we tried to get to reset the brain. And that’s a big part of our clinical approach, but we have less energy, we move it so that it doesn’t hit the hormetic threshold. And we use the wavelength that is less penetrating, because lasers work through, you know, primarily through second messengers anyway, depth, that depth of penetration isn’t all that it’s cracked up to be there when when I was dating Michelle and watching her work in her open adjusting down there in Arizona, I would see her treat stroke patients. And I was just amazed by the outcomes that she was getting treating the stroke patients within her Erchonia laser, and so I did a little search on it. And I see a bunch of studies where they’re claiming that it’s not putting the laser over where the stroke is, it’s putting the laser anywhere up there that base the cerebral spinal fluid, and then it kind of gets everything. It’s a systemic effect rather than a local effect, even though you have both local and systemic effects, but the systemic effects are really important. I mean, even if you read tuner and Hodes book, I mean, just pick up there, what do we got it I got four Desinger three editions of the book now, they actually talk about animals that they will purposely injure, on their on their forearms, that the injuries can be burns or cuts or crutch, and then they divide the animal group in half, half get no treatment at all, that would be the control group, the other half gets laser treatment. And as expected, the laser treatments significantly out heels, the controls are not not treated at all. But here’s the curveball. They always injured the animals bilaterally. Yet, they only lay them on one side, to their amazement, that the arm that was not laid significantly out healed the controls and the depth of penetration was zero. It’s a second messenger that goes through the lymphatics and it goes through the the vascular system never undervalue the lymphatic drainage of the brain, they call it the glymphatic with the G, the letter G. If you’re looking at the studies, it’s sort of popping up starting with Scientific American and 2015 on the glymphatic thing. And if you look at the laser literature, lasers accelerate the glymphatic exchange of the brain, which is basically you’re accelerating the washing of the brain. This is some of the reasons we get really great outcomes on a wide variety of things, including things that aren’t even syndromes. A lot of people, a lot of my friends, including me, including our family, use lasers for cognitive enhancement. We know the protocols, we know what to do. We are familiar with the literature, we do cognitive enhancement, and if anything, as we get older, our brains get even better. And this is why I think it is so interesting that Steven Gundry the cardiologist in his most recent book of 2022 plugs it because this is just the way that the literature is going. Anyone that adds risk factors for any sort of future life cognitive decline should learn the protocols but don’t overdo it. more is not better, more say more is better is propaganda. It is not the truth. I remember what I did at conventions that were very interesting Convention had to go to the bathroom. And there’s all these exhibitors and someone’s got a laser and they have Deuter notes 2014 book sitting there, and I go yeah I got a nice lady, you know, yeah, most powerful on the market. He quickly says the most powerful laser out there. And I thought, great. And I go, great book. And he goes, yep, that’s the Bible. And I go, did you read the Bible? He goes, Yeah, read the whole book. And I go, Really? I go, What do you think about this part right here where it says buy brand name, the laser you sell is purposeful deception, because it’s bogus, and even potentially dangerous. What do you say about that? In the book that you have right next to the laser, the guy did, why does the cheat sheet and I go dude, I know you’re commissioned. I eat and go to work for different covers to get rid of the book. Next time I had to go to the bathroom, the book was gone. But it’s weird that in history someone had told him that more is better. And I reject that. More than if you want to just I mean, just look at this one who started the world exercising, Ken Cooper cardiologists still alive isn’t like 90 years old now. cardiologist in a day down in Dallas, Texas. He actually invented the word aerobics, he got America exercising. He wrote it in his book 1968, the height of the Vietnam War, aerobics, people don’t know that 26 years later, in 1994, he writes a second book and he essentially says, Oops, he goes, we got America exercising, but now we realize that our best exerciser our earliest dyers of heart disease, cancer and stroke, because more is not better. More exercise is not better exercise is formatic. Read Scientific American, July of 2015. There’s an article about eating fruits and vegetables that are just rhetorical. Hey, are eating fruits and vegetables good for you? Everyone says yeah, sure what, of course. And they go with that so fast. As soon as you start eating fruits and vegetables, there’s the benefits of your app and all of the major parameters in your blood, your blood. But if that’s all you do, and you just go crazy on doing nothing but fruits and vegetables, you start to go down the backside of a bell shaped curve, do you eventually harm yourself, even fruits and vegetables are hormetic everything is hormetic. That’s just the way biology is. Everything that is good for you will become bad for you if you overdo it. And to say that one device is better than another because it’s more, I’m thinking yeah, but that violates the laws of biology and that is published, that is to say this is not to read the article on Alzheimer’s disease in 2012. On lasers, who come out of the University of Texas read that they say far for being a superior, it’s resolved for me CES is for real, more is not better, and you would lose the benefit if you overdo it. That’s a direct quote, by the way. 

Dr. Chad Woolner: And towards the end of that article, I can’t help but think as you’ve been talking about this, the book that keeps coming to mind for me is if you’ve read the book, dopamine nation by Dr. Anna Lemke, this is exactly what she’s she makes the argument that in essence, many if not most of the chronic health issues that people are dealing with, especially mental health issues are this result of an imbalance of too much pleasure, right, that we’ve overloaded the pleasure centers of the brain through various different things like that. And so that’s what her argument is that various types of hormetic practices, the right dose, can really help reset that balance, so to speak. And she talks about, you know, things like intermittent fasting, cold immersion, therapy, heat exposure, you know, all these different types of tools. And so, very, very similar, fascinating concept here that we’re talking about, you know, this idea of hormesis. And to that, your example: too much chocolate, too much anything you know, at the beginning, can make the difference between something being therapeutic or, or detrimental to your health.

Dr. Dan Murphy: And Anna Lemke, who runs Stanford’s medical school school of addiction, if you also Chapter Four is her best chapter because there’s parts of her book that are super disturbing, because it shows you just how screwed up people can get when they exceed the hormetic threshold, right? If you don’t have any dopamine in her book, dopamine nation, then you don’t have sexual intercourse, and you don’t perpetuate your species. But if you can, if it’s dopaminergic, it is exploitable. And if they exploit it, they always exceed the hormetic threshold. And the result is a mental health crisis. Who are her patients? A lot of them are students at Stanford Medical School, read the first page of the book, read the first line of the book. It literally says this is a book about pleasure. Pleasure is dopamine. But when you wrap up the dopamine you drop the serotonin and that in serotonin is part of the suprasegmental descending pain inhibitory control apparatus. So the result is the second sentence of the book. This is also a book about pain, in which you look at these balances in you’re truly unbalancing it with an idea that more is better because every one exploiting you has figured out how to exploit dopamine and dopamine is over the hormone threshold. You are a smart guy. You’ve figured that out. You’ve read her book. And my gosh, her book only came out last August.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, it’s definitely a fascinating read for sure. And yeah, and you’re, you’re correct. She talks about some very interesting characters that she works with. So yeah, fascinating subject for sure. So, in terms of this, you know, so we’ve talked kind of about looking at the research, any other recommendations you would make for Doc’s that are exploring lasers in terms of applying them into their clinic?

Dr. Dan Murphy: You know, I believe in my heart that, like anything, you can be sold on anything by anyone these days. And the propaganda if you’ve read Sebastian youngers book from 2016, called tribe, you can convince anyone of anything in so I would just say that whatever device people are looking at, do your due diligence, look at other devices, so that you don’t get cycles chlorotic by some slick sales pitch, I think that you have to be aware of hormesis, you have to look at published studies on the topic. And you have to, you know, then deal with people, see if they will even you know, show you how to work it and use it on some of your tough patients even before you spring. And I think our conium makes a lot of those options. I’m quite available. All of their sales reps are exceptionally well versed in the public status and the epi market clearances. And they are very, very helpful. I think that you should demand as much from any company that you’re thinking about purchasing a device from.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Yeah, yeah, that’s a great point. Dr. Wells, anything else you want to ask?

Dr. Andrew Wells: I think this is a really good jumping off point for dogs interested in not only in the subject of, you know, the power versus penetration. This is a Dr. Murphy, first of all, this is an excellent, excellent dive into why that question is somewhat irrelevant, or actually the wrong question load. makes a ton of questions. Yeah, it’s a loaded question. Right. It’s yeah, it starts from a marketing perspective. Right. So really appreciate your sort of detangling that for doctors who are interested in using this for their patients. And yeah, is there any other direction you would point Doc’s in terms of looking at research? Or whereas besides published studies, is there any other good place as a jumping off point to do their homework?

Dr. Dan Murphy: Well, I think there is. And I think this is why people take my class and my class and other classes. I took leisure class already this year, myself, and I think I learned so darn much that I think that the agenda part is this very simple concept. The biological epicenter of aging is the mitochondria. And consequently, anything you can do to enhance mitochondrial health is in your best interest. And the lasers work at the level of the mitochondria that is not controversial. And so to really understand why you would use a laser at any level of game, you have to go back and get down some of your mitochondrial physiology. So I’m attracted to mitochondria publications, I like them. That’s where I like Otto Warburg stuff, because he discovered the mitochondria. And understanding that lasers are targeting mitochondrial physiology in a way that is unprecedented. Nothing else can even come close. But again, part of when you read the literature, part of the way that lasers work with the mitochondria is through the release of a vasodilation or nitric oxide, but then they quickly also throw the curveball at that nitric oxide in excess functions as an egregiously dangerous pre radical. This is again why they say don’t overdo it, that you want some vasodilation but you don’t want to get free radical damage. Read, just look at mitochondrial health and bottle condo physiology. If any of you that are listening to this ever are in my class, happy to see you and say hi to I would tell you that this whole thing on the wavelength thinks that I kind of just made up, I have a graph on it that I created. I created the graph. And it is so good. I mean it is really good. And then most of the class is on mitochondrial physiology. That’s why we integrate both laser and high intensity interval training and certain supplements and intermittent fasting. In fact, again, if you look at country’s recent most recent book He says that the, the, if the most important of all of the eight steps is intermittent fasting because it influences mitochondria in a positive way, show when you what you’re doing in the leisure, you can enhance it. If you take certain supplements, if you get people to exercise, if you can get them to do some intermittent fasting, if we make sure they’re not insulin resistant by changing their diet, all of these things kind of amalgamate into a program of care. That helps us as providers as clinicians to get really good outcomes. So you can’t even tell what chiropractors do when you go by our office, we have no signage at all, yet we are completely packed. We’re quiet right now, just because I’m doing this podcast. But soon as we’re done, we are completely packed today, just just nonstop, body after body. Because we get exceptional outcomes because of our integrative approach of which all of us in the groups that I hang with, none of us can actually practice anymore. Without lasers, it’s inconceivable that we would know what to do, it’s inconceivable that our patients would say, Well, I have to find other chiropractors who don’t have these devices. Because they make the biggest difference, because they target the amount of Erchonia. More Highlander mitochondria, more ATP, more ATP, better, everything more better pumps, better expression of your genes, better everything if you can up the adenosine triphosphate. And that’s kind of the struggle with age as we age, our ability to make ATP goes down. All of these things are so that we can hold it off as long as possible so that we’re making high levels of energy for as long as possible with an integrative approach of which the center stone for us is this low level laser therapy, we can we can advise people in high intensity interval training and intermittent fasting, and it takes some supplements, but in our clinic, we are chiropractors and we do the laser to unblock the cytochrome c oxidase to enhance instantaneously and meaningfully the production of adenosine triphosphate.

Dr. Chad Woolner: So, Dr. Murphy, I was just going to ask, you know, for dogs who want to get into your world more, I’m assuming many know where to go. But where would you direct Doc’s to come to either of your seminars to learn more from you directly? What would you say?

Dr. Dan Murphy: Well, you know, we are not entrepreneurs. We are contractors. So people hire us, I Michelle today, he says, Man, you’re doing the South Carolina convention, you got to put those notes together. So they just hire us. So we go out there and say What topics do you want, you can always go to my web page, which is www Dan Murphy. dc.com Dan Murphy dc.com. And there’s always a list of where we’re going to be. There are always different sponsors that I do quite a few classes with or Erchonia just on the topic of lasers, but again, they don’t even know what I go over. Because they trust my judgment. They trust that it’ll be solid evidence based, no vs. And I’m clinically experienced and we can do all of those things. So they trust my judgment. And I’ve done classes with them pretty much nonstop now for about 20 years. But I also do other classes on orthopedics and neurology and pediatrics on trauma. Last week I did trauma up in the state of Washington up in Seattle. Some of the greatest stuff I’ve ever done in my career. I did last week at a whiplash conference in Seattle. I thought oh man, this is the best stuff ever. Some of this stuff is so good. So just go to my webpage and I can do it. And then of course we do have educational videos that have nothing to do with it. Michelle uses them on her patients but we have them on lasers and exercise whatever we have them on just about everything we think she’s up to like 48 different educational videos that people can get if you ever ended up just contact Michelle with this Michelle at Dan Murphy dc.com Michelle at Dan Murphy dc.com I’m Dan at Dan Murphy dc.com The webpage is www Dan Murphy. dc.com

Dr. Chad Woolner: Awesome. Awesome. were you gonna say something Dr. Wells

Dr. Andrew Wells: Similar question that you had Chad. Dr. Murphy, this has been amazing. I’ve written everything down in six books that I need to read and another couple are research articles I need to follow up and read. This has really blown my hair back. We really appreciate you cramming an immense amount of information is very fascinating and information into a very small amount of time like holy cow. We didn’t have to pay you fortunately for this for our other podcast Dr. Murphy because I think that would have been an expensive hour but I just want to say we really appreciate the knowledge that you shared with our listeners and your insights into making laser therapy impactful for patients. This has been unbelievable. So thank you so much.

Dr. Dan Murphy: before you get to hang up I mean it just I just want to let you guys know you are the only guys that I’ve run across so far that are conversational and analytic and booked from last August. Oh, that’s cool to your credit. Oh thank no one knows that stuff and if you’re if you’re into that, I know another, you know, half dozen books that except was supportive of that model you read I mean it all starts with hacking of the American mind by Robert Lustig in 2017. He’s a pediatric endocrinologist if you read Daniel labored son’s book called The molecule of more if you read Fred private’s book, the dopaminergic mind and human history and evolution if you just read a quick Pulitzer Prize winner Michael Moss from last year 2021. You mean, there are so many things once you start understanding, or Mises and you understand dopamine and you understand serotonin and you understand balances and how you can influence these things. And how the whole world is going if you’re into this read, read Sam Quinones book from last year, read the book, titled the least of us, it will change you forever. Because all of a sudden, the whole world has changed in the last decade. And people are going through what’s happening. Sam Quinones nagels, that read that book, because it’s about brain neurochemistry and how it’s being exploited and influenced, and what it’s doing to society and to our world and to our planet. It’s incredibly cool stuff. You guys are good. I’m proud of you guys.

Dr. Chad Woolner: Thank you so much. And for Doc’s listening, I will make sure that we go back through probably a couple of times, and do our best to get all of these listed out in the show notes so that you guys will have links to these so that you won’t have to listen to this 20 different times to to jot these down. We’ll do that for you. So thank you for sharing those resources, because we are definitely going to get on, that is definitely we firmly are in the same kind of line of thought or school of thought there that this is exactly where the direction is heading in terms of health, longevity, helping improve people’s lives. So we appreciate it again, I would echo everything Dr. Wells has said. So thank you for your time. Dr. Murphy. You appreciate it. And yeah, Doc’s thanks for listening, and we will share more with you on the next episode. Hope this has been extremely valuable for you. We’re sure it has been and I will talk to you guys later. 


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